You have a population of players whose goal in life is to torment and frustrait those players with the very least investment and comitment to the game. The new blood. So, after a while of being unable to finish quests and level, of being killed without seeing the attacker, or obliterated by someone who has twinked up his low level alt into a giant killer in raid gear, those new players get tired ofit. Of PvP, or the game.
Best case, PvP becomes endgame only, which means you have a population only of those who get that far. This has its own problems becase it suddenly shifts playstyle on people and many wont like it, and you are left with people acustomed to being pretty powerfull along the climb now on the low rungs again. Even worse if PvP and PvE requre vastly differing gear and disposition of charicter resorces.
Worst case, all too common in my case and many others. They get ganked once too often, hit one of the games other flaws, newb traps or speed bumps, log out and never come back.
PvP, in other words, holds a known and specific band of fans whose purpose in life is to make the game non-fun for new players, a risk less endemic to PvE. (PvE has its share of greifers, but these are less encoraged to be so by the game, and can be more easaly dealt with)
So, this being the case, why would any dev set itself up to see a chunk of new blood simply give up due to the actions of other players?
Thats poor game design. Devs want to take the same ol design and create solutions to the problems that are inherent to the design. When that design was never meant for pvp or even mmo to be honest. Any more solutions and we'll have no game left.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I like PvP. I used to love DAoC, the lower tiers of WAR were fun, and I liked the WoW BGs. The thing I hate is the idiot players chasing down people that they can kill 10 times over in a single blow. The problem is that there isn't jsut one every now and then. There are always these idiots around.
In all the FFA PvP games the low levels are ruined by gankers. What exactly is the point of that other than to say its ffa?
I agree. I loved DAOC, and I loved WAR tier 1-3. Mostly what I enjoyed about those two games was the instanced PVP.
FFA PVP is ok depending on the situation. Getting ganked or griefed is never fun.
PVP isnt an e-sport. It's not. It never will be. Ever. Poor game design makes people think it is. It's not. It's disgusting to try an make it one.
Have no idea what you mean actually.
It already is an e-sport. GW for one and WoW if I remember correctly. Pretty much any game with instanced arena PvP if done right. Even Eve's Alliance Tournament is a form of e-sport.
Calling it an e-sport is fine. Designing pvp thinking thats it actually IS an e-sport leads to AFK battlegrounds and other nonsense that hasnt been realized yet.
It's not. It never will be. Design at your own peril.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
You have a population of players whose goal in life is to torment and frustrait those players with the very least investment and comitment to the game. The new blood. So, after a while of being unable to finish quests and level, of being killed without seeing the attacker, or obliterated by someone who has twinked up his low level alt into a giant killer in raid gear, those new players get tired ofit. Of PvP, or the game.
Best case, PvP becomes endgame only, which means you have a population only of those who get that far. This has its own problems becase it suddenly shifts playstyle on people and many wont like it, and you are left with people acustomed to being pretty powerfull along the climb now on the low rungs again. Even worse if PvP and PvE requre vastly differing gear and disposition of charicter resorces.
Worst case, all too common in my case and many others. They get ganked once too often, hit one of the games other flaws, newb traps or speed bumps, log out and never come back.
PvP, in other words, holds a known and specific band of fans whose purpose in life is to make the game non-fun for new players, a risk less endemic to PvE. (PvE has its share of greifers, but these are less encoraged to be so by the game, and can be more easaly dealt with)
So, this being the case, why would any dev set itself up to see a chunk of new blood simply give up due to the actions of other players?
If you want PvP, you need to have rewards for winning, low to no punishmensts for loosing (This includes time to get back where you were standing) and fair fights at all levels. I played a game once where I was target to a ganker, sided PvP, it took me a walk across three large maps to get to my quest site, I'd get there, laden with death penalties, get ganked and need to start over. Not permitted to talk in zone at that stage, so way to get rid of him. after the third time, never logged in again
This dynamic, of people being forced to pvp as you say in a game where endgame is based on PVP only happens because of BoP. In DAoC there are people who never PVP, even though the main focus of endgame is PVP, because there is no bind on pickup.
What this means is that people who like to PVE can go and do so all day long, and the people who want to PVP can also just pvp all day long. Now here is where the symbiosis comes in. Because there is no BoP in DAoC, the pve players actually provide a valuable service to the PVP players, by providing them with the Gear they need to PVP without them having to go PVE for it, and the PVP players provide the customer base for the PVE players, and crafters.
People constantly talk about how seperate PVP and PVE zones is the perfect solution, and it looks like the people at Guild Wars have listened, as this is the model they will be using. Daoc pvp was, and really still is the best PVP.
Besides being old, the main reason a lot of people, at least people who used to play it, are not playing DAoC anymore, is not because PVP is not fun, its is mainly because of buff bots. I love DAoC and if there were no bots i would be playing it now, but i refuse, on principle, to pay 30 dollars a month to play a game that is 9 years old.
Looking forward to guild wars, and some real PVP. When you kill someone who is lower level, with less gear and abilities, thats not PVP, its just ganking. FFA pvp means ganking lowbies and nothing more.
Not that it wasnt fun running around helping my low level friends level on my Sab in Rift, and some noob would attack my friend, and i would one shot blow them up. It was comical, but definately not PVP.
I find the PVE crowd to be just as onnoxious. It was one of many reasons i quit playing Rift. People with their uber purple shinies thinking they are better than everyone cause their threshhold for boredom is higher.
You missed one about community and the fact that todays pvp community is horrible and it kills brain cells just to be in the chat channels. Look at DF chat as an example. It is like WOW chat but with people who think they are above playing WOW. yet still the same racist, drug using, boring immature drivel. Thats what is killing pvp in that no one wants to be a part of the crowd. I am thankful for EVE for my pvp needs/
i wouldnt put it quite so crudely.. but.. .. what your saying has a lot of merit.. and.. its the main reason why Eve is the only game i play for the PVP... and why Eve will always be my main 'mmo fix' ..
I consider myself a pvper. I'm not out to gank low lvl players as a matter of fact I go out of my way to protect them. I often end up in search and destroy groups,raids hunting the greifers. Back in my EQ days I was one of the clan leaders in a coalition that helped to destroy several PK clans and it was great fun. Though I am sure they felt persecuted. In my view you ahve two basic types of pvpers the purest who do it for the fun and competition and the sad little boys who hate themselves and everyone else who run around greifing.
I am not a griefer and no one I have ever pvped with are either. I would say there are far fewer greifers than you might think. Most of the bad perceptions people have about pvp is due to very bad game machanics.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition 8 gig Ram Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
You missed one about community and the fact that todays pvp community is horrible and it kills brain cells just to be in the chat channels. Look at DF chat as an example. It is like WOW chat but with people who think they are above playing WOW. yet still the same racist, drug using, boring immature drivel. Thats what is killing pvp in that no one wants to be a part of the crowd. I am thankful for EVE for my pvp needs/
i wouldnt put it quite so crudely.. but.. .. what your saying has a lot of merit.. and.. its the main reason why Eve is the only game i play for the PVP... and why Eve will always be my main 'mmo fix' ..
Eve isnt the same ol design from 15 years ago. And look, The impossible can be accomplished.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
You have a population of players whose goal in life is to torment and frustrait those players with the very least investment and comitment to the game. The new blood. So, after a while of being unable to finish quests and level, of being killed without seeing the attacker, or obliterated by someone who has twinked up his low level alt into a giant killer in raid gear, those new players get tired ofit. Of PvP, or the game.
Best case, PvP becomes endgame only, which means you have a population only of those who get that far. This has its own problems becase it suddenly shifts playstyle on people and many wont like it, and you are left with people acustomed to being pretty powerfull along the climb now on the low rungs again. Even worse if PvP and PvE requre vastly differing gear and disposition of charicter resorces.
Worst case, all too common in my case and many others. They get ganked once too often, hit one of the games other flaws, newb traps or speed bumps, log out and never come back.
PvP, in other words, holds a known and specific band of fans whose purpose in life is to make the game non-fun for new players, a risk less endemic to PvE. (PvE has its share of greifers, but these are less encoraged to be so by the game, and can be more easaly dealt with)
So, this being the case, why would any dev set itself up to see a chunk of new blood simply give up due to the actions of other players?
If you want PvP, you need to have rewards for winning, low to no punishmensts for loosing (This includes time to get back where you were standing) and fair fights at all levels. I played a game once where I was target to a ganker, sided PvP, it took me a walk across three large maps to get to my quest site, I'd get there, laden with death penalties, get ganked and need to start over. Not permitted to talk in zone at that stage, so way to get rid of him. after the third time, never logged in again
This dynamic, of people being forced to pvp as you say in a game where endgame is based on PVP only happens because of BoP. In DAoC there are people who never PVP, even though the main focus of endgame is PVP, because there is no bind on pickup.
What this means is that people who like to PVE can go and do so all day long, and the people who want to PVP can also just pvp all day long. Now here is where the symbiosis comes in. Because there is no BoP in DAoC, the pve players actually provide a valuable service to the PVP players, by providing them with the Gear they need to PVP without them having to go PVE for it, and the PVP players provide the customer base for the PVE players, and crafters.
People constantly talk about how seperate PVP and PVE zones is the perfect solution, and it looks like the people at Guild Wars have listened, as this is the model they will be using. Daoc pvp was, and really still is the best PVP.
Besides being old, the main reason a lot of people, at least people who used to play it, are not playing DAoC anymore, is not because PVP is not fun, its is mainly because of buff bots. I love DAoC and if there were no bots i would be playing it now, but i refuse, on principle, to pay 30 dollars a month to play a game that is 9 years old.
Looking forward to guild wars, and some real PVP. When you kill someone who is lower level, with less gear and abilities, thats not PVP, its just ganking. FFA pvp means ganking lowbies and nothing more.
Not that it wasnt fun running around helping my low level friends level on my Sab in Rift, and some noob would attack my friend, and i would one shot blow them up. It was comical, but definately not PVP.
Couldn't agree more. If not for the botters I don't think I would have ever left DAoC. I could pve all day unless I felt like logging on my hunter to stalk me some dirty little hibbies.
I would agree with every point, actually, except the first.
I think if pvp players find a good pvp game they are much more likely to be faithful subscribers than pve players, a lot of whom hop from game to game for one reason or another.
But if you look at server populations of most games, there are usually many more pve servers and they are usually full much more often. With this trend clearly established, I don't think it gives developers much of a reason to design their game for the pvp crowd, unless they just go all-out pvp and hope their game is solid enough to solidify their place with that niche, which no one recently seems capable of doing.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
The OP asks why PVP is dying. I just stated my thoughts, wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings (I may have gone a little too far with "lack of skill" comment, sorry about that).
I think many gamers are more concerned with how cool their armor looks, than the actual fun and challenge of the game.
You can't deny the fact that most people look for the path of least resistance. PVP provides a challenge that many players would rather avoid, am I right?
I love PVE (I'm actually playing FFXI while I type this message), but some of my greatest gaming experiences came from PVP.
I overreacted, which is my bad but your comment did voice like so many people I have heard before. I get irritated with PvP'ers because of how they talk. Sharing their epeen with everyone, like everyone is supposed to be impressed or intimidated. That sort of attitude is not indicitive of a fun environment.
None-the-less I understand your point, and realize I took it in the wrong context.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Only way pvp works is in a pure pvp mmo like say planetside was. PS was full skill based lvl gear didn't mean a thing. Look at let's say WoW you mix pvp and pve and i find it ruins both sides of the game. Pvp in WoW = gear no skill needed. Pve gets balanced around pvp in a lot of ways in turn ruins lot of the pve. Agree or not if you can't split the 2 they both fail in my book.
PvP games are the most popular games in the entire industry of video games. Call of Duty and Battlefield franchises dominate video game sales completely.
Only way pvp works is in a pure pvp mmo like say planetside was. PS was full skill based lvl gear didn't mean a thing. Look at let's say WoW you mix pvp and pve and i find it ruins both sides of the game. Pvp in WoW = gear no skill needed. Pve gets balanced around pvp in a lot of ways in turn ruins lot of the pve. Agree or not if you can't split the 2 they both fail in my book.
Yeah that's certainly the type of PVP I prefer, although (a) there's still a niche market who wants the casual world PVP experience and (b) I don't feel PVP overly mucked up WOW's PVE -- I'm not sure I can remember a time I felt my WOW character was overly nerfed due to PVP reasons.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't think pve was ever really nerfed hard for pvp just fun things removed, Last i recall was druids shapeshifting out of roots OP in pvp, just fun side skill in pve. I hate wow's pvp so maybe it's just me but i hate when the pve side takes any hits to fix something in the pvp side.
Because only a small number of devs ever did PvP right? Mythic, Aventurine, CCP.
And none of those models proved to be wildly popular.
Um, really? Because DAoC was the second most popular MMO on the market in its prime. And Eve is near the top in terms of popular MMOs today. Darkfall and Eve are probably the only MMOs on the market actually GROWING instead of shrinking. That being said, DAOC's model, I think, was the best. It created a perfect balance between PvP, PvE, and crafting, and let a world come to life without instances.
These "masses" are the carebear, hand holding wow generation that is used to having companies bend at their will to make the game easier and "more fair".
When you think "arena" pvp is the ultimate pvp, that is sad. At least battleground PvP has bigger numbers and feels a little more closer to "war" type scenario, but even then, that is lackluster.
I think it is the lack of good open pvp, the lack of a 3rd side, all this side A vs side B crap has to go.
Dark age of camelot was just fine, the pvp was good, it was a zerg fest at times, but it was good and people liked it. So to say that it is the zerging/griefing that is driving people away just further shows it is the post WoW generation mmo-ers that are ruining the pvp experience for the rest of the community.
Also, out of this generation came a lot of asshat little kids who find it fun to be douchebags over the internet where-as when you played back in the day with DAoC and such (before this game), the stupid douchebag kids were limited. (I was a younger kid at this time being 16, but was not a douchebag or little prick that likes to ruin the game for other people by spamming chat with nonsense, or just being an all around douchebag).
So in my eyes, it is the WoW generation of MMO-ers who generally are ruining PvP, and the whole MMO community. These publishers are making games to cater to these people who are used to having their hand held, or complaining about every little class imbalance and are full of self entitlement and "win/elite/your a noob" mentality.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
I don't think its dying, i think theres just been some really bad PvP games released in recent years, and the same can be said for a majority of the PvE games. That all depends on your definition of success of course.
If you look at World of Warcraft, how long does it take for a battleground to pop? I haven't played in awhile, but it used to be about a minute, sounds sort of popular (pvp) to me.. and thats a PvE focused game.
Warhammer had close to a million box sales, it was a PvP (RvR) focused game, and people were (obviously) interested. It wasn't a very good PvP game, so people left.
I think there is a market for a PvP (RvR) based game, I'm just not sure developers are ready to take a chance on one yet (again). When the tried and true games can still make you some money (Rift), as long as it has polish, why bother.
I voted "griefing/ganging drives away the masses" in most PvP servers/games there are allways entire guilds just ganking lowbies everywhere...even if they gain no exp at all...just to F*** you..... It takes away all the fun for me...
I believe PvP players playing dirty are mostly the responsables for PvP dying.
1. Lazy Developers. PvP has to be balanced too and most game do not want to have to balance both PvE and PvP; it cuts into the profit margin. We have to look at this as what it really is: a business. Developers want to bring in the most money possible with the least upkeep expense. Skimping on PvP serves this goal.
2. Stupid Design Decisions. In furtherance of #1 above, while developers do not want to spend time on PvP, they sure as hell do not have a problem milking the crap out of it and creating another time sink. Best example: WoW. WoW should never have had PvP gear. Then you have the issues with instant death/griefing. PvP encounters should take roughly the same amount time as PvE encounters. Cut PvP damage in half, for example. Allow plaeyers to use strategy and make it actually a battle rather than just spamming one button till the player dies. I encourage anyone who has not seen an example of this to dig up some old 8v8 vids from DAoC.
3. Policing. Games simply do not get rid of the obvious hackers. Sure, every now and then they will announce they have banned X number of players. Problem is there are probably 3-4 people that did not get banned for every one that did. And the ones that did get banned just end up coming back anyway because their IP is not banned.
4. Will. Fact of the matter is that alot of newer players will not stick it out. PvP in most MMORPGs has an initial learning curve. You have to take your lumps a little while until you figure it out. Most people will quit PvP if they do not have a good experience the first time. This is a shame because alot of those people would probably enjoy it and contribute to making PvP more relevant in todays market.
As for things like griefers and what not, sure that has an impact. But sometimes, its those experiences which push people to stick with it so they can take their revenge and hunt down others like them.
I voted for choice #2. I love to PvP. But I just can't handle games that are purely Open World PvP. Mostly because there are just to many people thats only form of entertainment is hindering your games progression by camping you for hours and killing you at ever possible moment. So I just stick to Arena style PvP, or PvP optional servers where I can flag myself when I'm feeling frisky.
Comments
Thats poor game design. Devs want to take the same ol design and create solutions to the problems that are inherent to the design. When that design was never meant for pvp or even mmo to be honest. Any more solutions and we'll have no game left.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I agree. I loved DAOC, and I loved WAR tier 1-3. Mostly what I enjoyed about those two games was the instanced PVP.
FFA PVP is ok depending on the situation. Getting ganked or griefed is never fun.
Calling it an e-sport is fine. Designing pvp thinking thats it actually IS an e-sport leads to AFK battlegrounds and other nonsense that hasnt been realized yet.
It's not. It never will be. Design at your own peril.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
This dynamic, of people being forced to pvp as you say in a game where endgame is based on PVP only happens because of BoP. In DAoC there are people who never PVP, even though the main focus of endgame is PVP, because there is no bind on pickup.
What this means is that people who like to PVE can go and do so all day long, and the people who want to PVP can also just pvp all day long. Now here is where the symbiosis comes in. Because there is no BoP in DAoC, the pve players actually provide a valuable service to the PVP players, by providing them with the Gear they need to PVP without them having to go PVE for it, and the PVP players provide the customer base for the PVE players, and crafters.
People constantly talk about how seperate PVP and PVE zones is the perfect solution, and it looks like the people at Guild Wars have listened, as this is the model they will be using. Daoc pvp was, and really still is the best PVP.
Besides being old, the main reason a lot of people, at least people who used to play it, are not playing DAoC anymore, is not because PVP is not fun, its is mainly because of buff bots. I love DAoC and if there were no bots i would be playing it now, but i refuse, on principle, to pay 30 dollars a month to play a game that is 9 years old.
Looking forward to guild wars, and some real PVP. When you kill someone who is lower level, with less gear and abilities, thats not PVP, its just ganking. FFA pvp means ganking lowbies and nothing more.
Not that it wasnt fun running around helping my low level friends level on my Sab in Rift, and some noob would attack my friend, and i would one shot blow them up. It was comical, but definately not PVP.
I find the PVE crowd to be just as onnoxious. It was one of many reasons i quit playing Rift. People with their uber purple shinies thinking they are better than everyone cause their threshhold for boredom is higher.
i wouldnt put it quite so crudely.. but.. .. what your saying has a lot of merit.. and.. its the main reason why Eve is the only game i play for the PVP... and why Eve will always be my main 'mmo fix' ..
I consider myself a pvper. I'm not out to gank low lvl players as a matter of fact I go out of my way to protect them. I often end up in search and destroy groups,raids hunting the greifers. Back in my EQ days I was one of the clan leaders in a coalition that helped to destroy several PK clans and it was great fun. Though I am sure they felt persecuted. In my view you ahve two basic types of pvpers the purest who do it for the fun and competition and the sad little boys who hate themselves and everyone else who run around greifing.
I am not a griefer and no one I have ever pvped with are either. I would say there are far fewer greifers than you might think. Most of the bad perceptions people have about pvp is due to very bad game machanics.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
8 gig Ram
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Eve isnt the same ol design from 15 years ago. And look, The impossible can be accomplished.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Couldn't agree more. If not for the botters I don't think I would have ever left DAoC. I could pve all day unless I felt like logging on my hunter to stalk me some dirty little hibbies.
PVP is not dieing there jsut aren't enough games with good pvp worth playing.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
8 gig Ram
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Never has been. PvP is only been done well in FPS and RTS games. People are just finally getting it through their thick skulls
I would agree with every point, actually, except the first.
I think if pvp players find a good pvp game they are much more likely to be faithful subscribers than pve players, a lot of whom hop from game to game for one reason or another.
But if you look at server populations of most games, there are usually many more pve servers and they are usually full much more often. With this trend clearly established, I don't think it gives developers much of a reason to design their game for the pvp crowd, unless they just go all-out pvp and hope their game is solid enough to solidify their place with that niche, which no one recently seems capable of doing.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
I overreacted, which is my bad but your comment did voice like so many people I have heard before. I get irritated with PvP'ers because of how they talk. Sharing their epeen with everyone, like everyone is supposed to be impressed or intimidated. That sort of attitude is not indicitive of a fun environment.
None-the-less I understand your point, and realize I took it in the wrong context.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Only way pvp works is in a pure pvp mmo like say planetside was. PS was full skill based lvl gear didn't mean a thing. Look at let's say WoW you mix pvp and pve and i find it ruins both sides of the game. Pvp in WoW = gear no skill needed. Pve gets balanced around pvp in a lot of ways in turn ruins lot of the pve. Agree or not if you can't split the 2 they both fail in my book.
PvP games are the most popular games in the entire industry of video games. Call of Duty and Battlefield franchises dominate video game sales completely.
Yeah that's certainly the type of PVP I prefer, although (a) there's still a niche market who wants the casual world PVP experience and (b) I don't feel PVP overly mucked up WOW's PVE -- I'm not sure I can remember a time I felt my WOW character was overly nerfed due to PVP reasons.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't think pve was ever really nerfed hard for pvp just fun things removed, Last i recall was druids shapeshifting out of roots OP in pvp, just fun side skill in pve. I hate wow's pvp so maybe it's just me but i hate when the pve side takes any hits to fix something in the pvp side.
And they pay the bills and the only thing that matters in business is making money. You know that right?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Um, really? Because DAoC was the second most popular MMO on the market in its prime. And Eve is near the top in terms of popular MMOs today. Darkfall and Eve are probably the only MMOs on the market actually GROWING instead of shrinking. That being said, DAOC's model, I think, was the best. It created a perfect balance between PvP, PvE, and crafting, and let a world come to life without instances.
"because griefing/ganging drives away the masses"....
#1 answer so far and I assume it is because...
These "masses" are the carebear, hand holding wow generation that is used to having companies bend at their will to make the game easier and "more fair".
When you think "arena" pvp is the ultimate pvp, that is sad. At least battleground PvP has bigger numbers and feels a little more closer to "war" type scenario, but even then, that is lackluster.
I think it is the lack of good open pvp, the lack of a 3rd side, all this side A vs side B crap has to go.
Dark age of camelot was just fine, the pvp was good, it was a zerg fest at times, but it was good and people liked it. So to say that it is the zerging/griefing that is driving people away just further shows it is the post WoW generation mmo-ers that are ruining the pvp experience for the rest of the community.
Also, out of this generation came a lot of asshat little kids who find it fun to be douchebags over the internet where-as when you played back in the day with DAoC and such (before this game), the stupid douchebag kids were limited. (I was a younger kid at this time being 16, but was not a douchebag or little prick that likes to ruin the game for other people by spamming chat with nonsense, or just being an all around douchebag).
So in my eyes, it is the WoW generation of MMO-ers who generally are ruining PvP, and the whole MMO community. These publishers are making games to cater to these people who are used to having their hand held, or complaining about every little class imbalance and are full of self entitlement and "win/elite/your a noob" mentality.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
I don't think its dying, i think theres just been some really bad PvP games released in recent years, and the same can be said for a majority of the PvE games. That all depends on your definition of success of course.
If you look at World of Warcraft, how long does it take for a battleground to pop? I haven't played in awhile, but it used to be about a minute, sounds sort of popular (pvp) to me.. and thats a PvE focused game.
Warhammer had close to a million box sales, it was a PvP (RvR) focused game, and people were (obviously) interested. It wasn't a very good PvP game, so people left.
I think there is a market for a PvP (RvR) based game, I'm just not sure developers are ready to take a chance on one yet (again). When the tried and true games can still make you some money (Rift), as long as it has polish, why bother.
/shrug
I voted "griefing/ganging drives away the masses" in most PvP servers/games there are allways entire guilds just ganking lowbies everywhere...even if they gain no exp at all...just to F*** you..... It takes away all the fun for me...
I believe PvP players playing dirty are mostly the responsables for PvP dying.
You make money in business off the back of morons, if anything you've validated his comment. You know that right?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
1. Lazy Developers. PvP has to be balanced too and most game do not want to have to balance both PvE and PvP; it cuts into the profit margin. We have to look at this as what it really is: a business. Developers want to bring in the most money possible with the least upkeep expense. Skimping on PvP serves this goal.
2. Stupid Design Decisions. In furtherance of #1 above, while developers do not want to spend time on PvP, they sure as hell do not have a problem milking the crap out of it and creating another time sink. Best example: WoW. WoW should never have had PvP gear. Then you have the issues with instant death/griefing. PvP encounters should take roughly the same amount time as PvE encounters. Cut PvP damage in half, for example. Allow plaeyers to use strategy and make it actually a battle rather than just spamming one button till the player dies. I encourage anyone who has not seen an example of this to dig up some old 8v8 vids from DAoC.
3. Policing. Games simply do not get rid of the obvious hackers. Sure, every now and then they will announce they have banned X number of players. Problem is there are probably 3-4 people that did not get banned for every one that did. And the ones that did get banned just end up coming back anyway because their IP is not banned.
4. Will. Fact of the matter is that alot of newer players will not stick it out. PvP in most MMORPGs has an initial learning curve. You have to take your lumps a little while until you figure it out. Most people will quit PvP if they do not have a good experience the first time. This is a shame because alot of those people would probably enjoy it and contribute to making PvP more relevant in todays market.
As for things like griefers and what not, sure that has an impact. But sometimes, its those experiences which push people to stick with it so they can take their revenge and hunt down others like them.
I voted for choice #2. I love to PvP. But I just can't handle games that are purely Open World PvP. Mostly because there are just to many people thats only form of entertainment is hindering your games progression by camping you for hours and killing you at ever possible moment. So I just stick to Arena style PvP, or PvP optional servers where I can flag myself when I'm feeling frisky.