When Guild Wars 2 comes out i will point out that they got a more balanced pvp
And i'm sure of it, because one to three things that makes it balanced, first it isn't the gear that matters, mostly pvp games, or games that has pvp (take wow for example) Is it only the gear that desides if you win or loose, its not the *skill* of the player, it is only the person who farmed more gear that wins, and thats just how it is. (In guild wars they said they will change that, so its the skill of the player)
Secound reason is that you only have x amoun of skills. most games you got all the skills in the game (for that class) And just that makes it SO hard to balance a game, i won't say its impossible, but guild wars 2 just picked a easy and good way of dealing with that, so you have to pick x amoun of skills out from x amoun of skills. And then the last reason will come as soon as the game comes out, i'm sure i will be able to write more if they releashed more info then they already had.
But short: Yes pvp is dying because pvp is unbalanced and people hate loosing, and no it's not completely dead as there is hope ( Guild wars 2 fan...) So lets hope there be better games in the future that does something about this
Many company that are putting a pvp element into their games....do it to broaden the games appeal. Serious thought is not given to how its implemented since it's viewed as a needed add on to a pve game.The result..... player vs player conflict thats "me too" , poorly designed and quickly rejected by increasingly savy gamers .
The reason PvP is dying (and I do agree that it is), is because games don't do it right. Games are either a free-for-all, or they have "battlegrounds" or other things that actually end up killing real PvP. Free-for-all is stupid, because it's unrealistic (it cheapens PvP to just be able to kill anyone, anywhere), and "battlegrounds" are just flat out retarded in every possible way I can imagine.
I am not a fan of pvp in most games becouse it kill the PVE part of the game.
In most MMo's they Nerf a class or all of them. Why? Becouse PVP people wining that they cant kill someone. So the dev's go out of there way to make them happy. While never even thinking about the people that do not want to PVP just PVE. When the MMo nerfs for PVP they make it now harder to PVE for that class becouse that skill works for PVE. Now that skill is nerfed and now that class finds itself having trouble killing things that he or she had no problem befor the nerf.
After this happening to your class a few times you find your self becomming an Altaholic. Now that your class is no longer fun to play in PVE. I find myself soon quitting the MMo.
This is what is killing alot of MMo's for me Nerfing for PvP when im not even on a PVP server.
No conscience (no concern for right or wrong), although they may pretend to have one.
Persistent lying or stealing.
Aggressive and extensive manipulation of others.
Using ethical standards to entrap others while ignoring all ethics personally
Poor behavioral controls — expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper
Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others
Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
Inability to tolerate boredom, extreme feelings of emptiness when not stimulated
Extreme egotism combined with rage-driven insecurity (rage may be direct or may be hidden, poisonous and passive-aggressive/covert).
Extreme arrogance (although it may be hidden in order to deceive others).
Disregard for personal safety
May experience fear as a pleasant emotion (a mild thrill) while being incapable of feeling terror, even in situations that would terrify most others.
Thinks that everyone else is like them, only inferior (thinks everyone else is also like them, although less intelligent, and more gullible).
Does feel pleasure when controlling others.
Are very good actors. They have been acting all their lives, so many are very good at it (some less so). In many cases can trick people for years.
In group situations can become power-brokers and serial-bullies (the leader of the pack).
For me, that's what's wrong with PvPing, since that list there pretty much defines to the letter most "real PvPers" I've run across. It's also a list of characteristics of people who are sociopaths. Coincidence?
LOL
I think that this is the funniest post that I have ever read.
Look out!
Your shadow is behind you!!
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
1. Lazy Developers. PvP has to be balanced too and most game do not want to have to balance both PvE and PvP; it cuts into the profit margin. We have to look at this as what it really is: a business. Developers want to bring in the most money possible with the least upkeep expense. Skimping on PvP serves this goal.
2. Stupid Design Decisions. In furtherance of #1 above, while developers do not want to spend time on PvP, they sure as hell do not have a problem milking the crap out of it and creating another time sink. Best example: WoW. WoW should never have had PvP gear. Then you have the issues with instant death/griefing. PvP encounters should take roughly the same amount time as PvE encounters. Cut PvP damage in half, for example. Allow plaeyers to use strategy and make it actually a battle rather than just spamming one button till the player dies. I encourage anyone who has not seen an example of this to dig up some old 8v8 vids from DAoC.
3. Policing. Games simply do not get rid of the obvious hackers. Sure, every now and then they will announce they have banned X number of players. Problem is there are probably 3-4 people that did not get banned for every one that did. And the ones that did get banned just end up coming back anyway because their IP is not banned.
4. Will. Fact of the matter is that alot of newer players will not stick it out. PvP in most MMORPGs has an initial learning curve. You have to take your lumps a little while until you figure it out. Most people will quit PvP if they do not have a good experience the first time. This is a shame because alot of those people would probably enjoy it and contribute to making PvP more relevant in todays market.
As for things like griefers and what not, sure that has an impact. But sometimes, its those experiences which push people to stick with it so they can take their revenge and hunt down others like them.
1. PVP is a niche audience, but serving it poorly doesn't bring in more customers. It's not in a game's self-interests to offer poor PVP -- PVE interests should come first in most games (because those players outnumber PVP players) but by no means does this mean a game will feel rewarded for having shitty PVP. It won't.
2. Your examples are all over the board here (some of which conflict with your Point #1 that games shouldn't or don't put emphasis on PVP :P) You mention instant death and griefing as bad traits, which is true, but immediately (and strangely) seg into WOW which lacks both of these traits. And as an added bonus, you claim WOW shouldn't have had PVP gear without actually explaining why you think it was a bad move :P
3. Um...wha? What MMORPGs even have a problem with hacking in PVP? (or at all, apart from goldspam-influenced account hacking, which is a completely separate issue) There is so little hacking in MMORPG PVP that it's incredibly strange you bring it up as one of the ways PVP is "dying" today.
4. This is the only point you make which is accurate. Although it's more "interest" than "will" (but both terms amount to the same thing in the end, so no biggie.)
5. Far more players quit games from griefing than "stick with it". By a longshot.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There are some games that focus heavily on PVP. Like EVE and Guild Wars. But my guess is that the OP is talking about FFA PVP without the heavily protected areas like in EVE.
Well, simply said, those games will never be popular untill some company manages to make it balanced and prevent too much griefing and losing subs because of that. I still have to see the first solution that prevents noobs being griefed by early starters when they try to lvl their toon. So far, all 'solutions' can be easily exploited. And the funniest thing about this, is that those griefers dont understand why the games they play always lose subs.
Also, I think that e-sports PVP is more popular then the corpserun, losing loot kind of PVP. Most players find it silly to see naked toons running around randomly attacking other players, preferably noobs so itll be an easy kill. Just so they wont lose loot when they die. It is also ridiculous when the mechanics of a game encourage this behaviour.
No conscience (no concern for right or wrong), although they may pretend to have one.
Persistent lying or stealing.
Aggressive and extensive manipulation of others.
Using ethical standards to entrap others while ignoring all ethics personally
Poor behavioral controls — expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper
Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others
Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
Inability to tolerate boredom, extreme feelings of emptiness when not stimulated
Extreme egotism combined with rage-driven insecurity (rage may be direct or may be hidden, poisonous and passive-aggressive/covert).
Extreme arrogance (although it may be hidden in order to deceive others).
Disregard for personal safety
May experience fear as a pleasant emotion (a mild thrill) while being incapable of feeling terror, even in situations that would terrify most others.
Thinks that everyone else is like them, only inferior (thinks everyone else is also like them, although less intelligent, and more gullible).
Does feel pleasure when controlling others.
Are very good actors. They have been acting all their lives, so many are very good at it (some less so). In many cases can trick people for years.
In group situations can become power-brokers and serial-bullies (the leader of the pack).
For me, that's what's wrong with PvPing, since that list there pretty much defines to the letter most "real PvPers" I've run across. It's also a list of characteristics of people who are sociopaths. Coincidence?
I think that defines 80% of the people on internet, not just in PvP oriented games xD!
PvP's great it allows trolling and the best troll gets rewards that help he/she to troll harder, it's friggin great you should try it sometime!
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
It's because PvP runs contrary to the design of MMORPGs.
A Good MMORPG requires meaningful character development (levels, stats, equipment, etc), which inherently unbalances the power between players.
Good PvP requires balance between those fighting each other.
When you mix the two together, you get an unbalanced mess.
So now you have a completely skewed PvP system where some people have no chance to defend themselves because of their level, gear, or they're simply outnumbered. And conversely you have people who are max level, ave amazing gear, and have a lot of friends who like to all go around and beat on those who can't defend themselves.
Fun? Not for everyone.
So how do developers try to balance out PvP fights? They shove people into instances and onto restricted teams to try to 'balance' things out evenly. Of course, instanced PvP is pretty meaningless. It's detatched from the game, and winning or losing only impacts how much "reward" tokens you get... to buy yourself more PvP gear -- and imbalance things even more.
PvP really doesn't mesh well in an MMORPG environment. That's not to say you couldn't have an MMO that does PvP well... just not an MMORPG.
I don't have time to respond to every point in this thread, most of which are poor arguments anyway, but this is the best I could find, so I will focus here.
The key problem that has made PvP such an issue, since UO, was the balance issue. Not necessarily balancing skills, because PvP isn't about fair combat all the time, but balancing PvP with other aspects of the game. Most games would suffer from this: its easy to kill someone who gathered for 2 hours and loot his corpse, then to do it yourself. Therefore, nash equilibrium assumed, eventually everyone will be PvPing for the value benefit, and gathers will die out. That's the nutshell concept.
Its the most accurate summary of what is wrong with PvP in most MMOs. However, it is not an argument against PvP in MMOs. Only against its implementation. Execution and presentation was ruined by the likes of WoW or perhaps EQ, who set the standard for future MMOs by integrating a majority demographic(single player gamers) into a genre(MMOs) presentated by their own game, which was based fundamentally on SINGLE PLAYER concepts, not the original MMORPG concepts. Concepts like: the guaranteed hero, instancing, static PvE, arena e-sport like PvP, etc. Essentially, to control and limit player interation as effectively as possible to make the game feel online, but to hold on to the profit generating and highly accessable concepts pioneered by single player games.
Breaking that standard, which is what the newest MMOs are trying to do very slowly by innovating and pushing for better player interaction, will result in another push for PvP, which is more or less the rough and basic aspect of player interaction, the core aspect of MMORPGs.
If they can finally balance and execute PvP properly, the idea of MMOs focusing on player interaction and not single player concepts will become the new standard overtime.
In a true MMO, people will not identify themselves as PvPers or PvErs, they will identify themselves as thieves, adventures, merchants, mercenaries, political leaders, religious figures, sailors, etc. That's what the genre was originally about, building worlds that could fit people with the will to be anything, and enjoying the spontaneous and original stories that come out of those interactions.
PvP started sucking once every MMO post-WoW started to copy Battlegrounds.
Instanced PvP is horrid. It's so boring now. I can't stand it. I'm hoping a future dev team will actually grow a pair and try to create something that's worthy of an audience above the age of 16.
These "masses" are the carebear, hand holding wow generation that is used to having companies bend at their will to make the game easier and "more fair".
Absurd.
These "carebears" have been present already in the good old MUD days.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "WoW" or "carebear". There are simply people who dont like to be ganked.
I think the main reason why PvP has lost its appeal is that it doesn't mean anything. In most popular games its been turned into a grind fest for _____ (insert whatever piece of cheese you'd like here, rep, armor, victory points...who cares). This canned approach to PvP may have novelty, and therefore popularity, at first, but that wears off quickly and you're left with a game who's PvP's only purpose is found in grinding for something. There is no risk of loss or substantial benefit that comes from winning.
It's kind of like telling Germany in WWII, "Go ahead and invade France, that's a PvP zone, but yeah, England, Scandinavia and North America are off limits, those places are just for people who don't want to fight. Oh...and if you win, whatever because we will reset everything in a few hours and you have to do it all again." Sounds ridiculous, but that's the model most popular MMO's are running off of.
I think it's the opposite really. Almost every new game that comes out has pvp a big part of it. Most of the Indie games coming out are trying to capture the pvp fans and are almost entirely pvp based. Now you might not like arena style pvp but its still considered pvp. Shorter small scale battles are just the current trend. In the past you had larger scale battles but they got smaller and smaller due to decreasing player participation. Whose fault is that? If you like those kind of battles you should have supported those games instead of letting them die out. Blaming "carebears" or the "mindless masses" is stupid. They never cared about large scale pvp anyway. Small scale battles actually test the player skill and cooperation to win where large scale battles tend to turn into a numbers game.
You missed one about community and the fact that todays pvp community is horrible and it kills brain cells just to be in the chat channels. Look at DF chat as an example. It is like WOW chat but with people who think they are above playing WOW. yet still the same racist, drug using, boring immature drivel. Thats what is killing pvp in that no one wants to be a part of the crowd. I am thankful for EVE for my pvp needs/
Lol this person gets so trolololed its lulz xD, i am so happy u get mad. I would never want to team pvp with a person like you. Pvp is good it weeds out the mentally weak
People can be stupid in pvp and act like little kids but u are even mroe stupid when u fall for it. Not to say that some of the racists are simply trolls trolololing stupid people and having extra fun when they kill you xD
PvP is dieing because there are a million games, other than MMos, where you can go beat someone up online. And, you can do it without having to spend the time to develop and level your toon.
Why spend weeks/months building a toon when you can hop in a fps and kill someone in 3 minutes.
Furthermore, all the "pvp mmos" are riddled with hackers. It becomes a deathtrap for devs because if they ban all the hackers, they lose a huge chunk of subscirbers now. But, if they dont, over time they lose even more.
Lastly, there is always an inherent flaw in MMO pvp. There is always a zerg factor that drives people away. People look for safety in numbers and create massive alliances that respond to small skirmishes with ridiculous numbers, thus creating a situation where small skirmishes vanish. PvP'ers also tend to be griefers who target easy targets. To this day, games like Darkfall and Shadowbane have newby areas riddled with vets who target newbs for no good reason basicaly making the game impossible to bring in newer players. With time, the games die because vets retire and nobody new subscribe.
Now, I know I hurt the precious little egos of a few people here who claim they are pvp'ers and wouldnt do this stuff. They wouldnt cheat, they wouldnt zerg, they wouldnt slaughter noobs. But the fact is, they do. For every 1 person who actually wouldnt do those things(not just the ones who say they wouldnt) there are 10 who would do them and say they wouldnt.
You can argue these points all you want, but everyone with experience in major pvp titles know this is fact.
Well, apart from Eve Online, PvP in MMOs is worthless. There's no real risk, because the console kiddies just want to pop back all shiny and new the instant they die, without a hair out of place and no damage to gear whatsoever. There's no real reward either, because god forbid the console kiddies actually get looted or suffer a finacial penalty. What MMO PvP amounts to is fighting with foam rubber weapons while standing in a bouncy castle. Who the hell needs THAT! What a waste of time.
PvP is dieing because there are a million games, other than MMos, where you can go beat someone up online. And, you can do it without having to spend the time to develop and level your toon.
Why spend weeks/months building a toon when you can hop in a fps and kill someone in 3 minutes.
Furthermore, all the "pvp mmos" are riddled with hackers. It becomes a deathtrap for devs because if they ban all the hackers, they lose a huge chunk of subscirbers now. But, if they dont, over time they lose even more.
Lastly, there is always an inherent flaw in MMO pvp. There is always a zerg factor that drives people away. People look for safety in numbers and create massive alliances that respond to small skirmishes with ridiculous numbers, thus creating a situation where small skirmishes vanish. PvP'ers also tend to be griefers who target easy targets. To this day, games like Darkfall and Shadowbane have newby areas riddled with vets who target newbs for no good reason basicaly making the game impossible to bring in newer players. With time, the games die because vets retire and nobody new subscribe.
Now, I know I hurt the precious little egos of a few people here who claim they are pvp'ers and wouldnt do this stuff. They wouldnt cheat, they wouldnt zerg, they wouldnt slaughter noobs. But the fact is, they do. For every 1 person who actually wouldnt do those things(not just the ones who say they wouldnt) there are 10 who would do them and say they wouldnt.
You can argue these points all you want, but everyone with experience in major pvp titles know this is fact.
Wrong. Its the FFA pvp that sucks. FFA and arenas and bgs are not good pvp.
Your last line is the funniest. Daoc was the most popular MMO in the world before WoW, and it had awesome PVP, and PVP was the main focus of the game. So id say that not everyone with experience in major PVP titles know this fact. I repeat it is FFA pvp that sucks and that people do not like. When you have seperate zones for PVP and PVE like DAoC it works extremely well.
Daoc died down due in large part to buff bots, and the toa grind, not because the pvp didnt rock.
Well, apart from Eve Online, PvP in MMOs is worthless. There's no real risk, because the console kiddies just want to pop back all shiny and new the instant they die, without a hair out of place and no damage to gear whatsoever. There's no real reward either, because god forbid the console kiddies actually get looted or suffer a finacial penalty. What MMO PvP amounts to is fighting with foam rubber weapons while standing in a bouncy castle. Who the hell needs THAT! What a waste of time.
Which makes you think, why do people do it... becasue really most PvP is just a bunch of people who need somewhere to feel superior and bully people and in real life they wouldn't stand a chance of doing it.
If there was a risk involved (such as in Eve online) you still get the bullies, but those same bullies know that at any time the law (the bigger guilds) can come crashing down and crush them mercifulessly leaving them with nothing. Without that risk of loosing all your precious loot then bullies know that while you can crush them today, they can come back tomorrow and bother you.
Well, apart from Eve Online, PvP in MMOs is worthless. There's no real risk, because the console kiddies just want to pop back all shiny and new the instant they die, without a hair out of place and no damage to gear whatsoever. There's no real reward either, because god forbid the console kiddies actually get looted or suffer a finacial penalty. What MMO PvP amounts to is fighting with foam rubber weapons while standing in a bouncy castle. Who the hell needs THAT! What a waste of time.
Which makes you think, why do people do it... becasue really most PvP is just a bunch of people who need somewhere to feel superior and bully people and in real life they wouldn't stand a chance of doing it.
If there was a risk involved (such as in Eve online) you still get the bullies, but those same bullies know that at any time the law (the bigger guilds) can come crashing down and crush them mercifulessly leaving them with nothing. Without that risk of loosing all your precious loot then bullies know that while you can crush them today, they can come back tomorrow and bother you.
QFT.
But the reverse is not quite true, either. I intensly dislike PVP but I`m no bully in RL.
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
Umm yea I agree with what afew people have said, PvP is poorly implemented in games. the whole Arena style or battleground PvP is rather pointless in most P2P MMRPG's guild wars will likely do it better than them, and for free.
How many games have or have had truly massive PvP?
DAOC, Darkfall, Planetside, EvE, aion, war?
Most of those are dated, not friendly to new players, or just simply terrible.
Until we see a +3 faction PvP game, that has multiple capture-able locations per map, with mobile or capture-able spawn points like Planetside or DAOC that can do PvP on a massive scale these new games will continue to be stale and boring, rift was no different and TOR shall be the same, 3 factions or FFA is smiply key to keep world pvp balanced and alive, perferably 3 faction since its alot more friendly to players, especially new players.
I think one reason PVP is struggling is because so many MMO games now rely on simplistic play models where classes are countered in a rock / paper/ scissors scheme and gear becomes the deciding factor in actual character power rating rather than any real skill. It’s hard to take seriously outside premades or rated battle grounds.
Another factor could be the difficulty your everyday casual player might have in seeing a game as a competitive e-sport. They are logging in for a different type of fun.
Then there is the turn off created by the hard core culture. Most people don’t pay their dollars to be griefed or bullied they play to have fun and with limited time and resources feel they could never compete. So why do it?
I miss the concept of the honorable, respectful, duel… A code of etiquette. In today’s game we just settle for a mugging of the weaker. Fast food…
I think one reason PVP is struggling is because so many MMO games now rely on simplistic play models where classes are countered in a rock / paper/ scissors scheme and gear becomes the deciding factor in actual character power rating rather than any real skill. It’s hard to take seriously outside premades or rated battle grounds.
Another factor could be the difficulty your everyday casual player might have in seeing a game as a competitive e-sport. They are logging in for a different type of fun.
Then there is the turn off created by the hard core culture. Most people don’t pay their dollars to be griefed or bullied they play to have fun and with limited time and resources feel they could never compete. So why do it?
I miss the concept of the honorable, respectful, duel… A code of etiquette. In today’s game we just settle for a mugging of the weaker. Fast food…
Why would you want to play pvp in an MMORPG anyway? FPS have become exceptionaly cool lately. That comes down to either who is faster, smarter tactically or has the best hacks. MMORPG poll shows only 20% of RPG people play for PVP yet the rest of us have to settle for constant nerfs and updates just to keep your sorry butts happy and interested....Is it fair that 20% of the general public (smokers) polute the air in retaurants for the other 80%?
As for honor and respect. Your asking a bit much from ten year olds to grasp that one. The children now days are being brought up in (USA) a greed ruled environment that rewards narcicism instead of extinguish it. Good luck with the greifers. They are all destined to become serial killers or CEO's anyway.
I think one reason PVP is struggling is because so many MMO games now rely on simplistic play models where classes are countered in a rock / paper/ scissors scheme and gear becomes the deciding factor in actual character power rating rather than any real skill. It’s hard to take seriously outside premades or rated battle grounds.
Another factor could be the difficulty your everyday casual player might have in seeing a game as a competitive e-sport. They are logging in for a different type of fun.
Then there is the turn off created by the hard core culture. Most people don’t pay their dollars to be griefed or bullied they play to have fun and with limited time and resources feel they could never compete. So why do it?
I miss the concept of the honorable, respectful, duel… A code of etiquette. In today’s game we just settle for a mugging of the weaker. Fast food…
Why would you want to play pvp in an MMORPG anyway? FPS have become exceptionaly cool lately. That comes down to either who is faster, smarter tactically or has the best hacks. MMORPG poll shows only 20% of RPG people play for PVP yet the rest of us have to settle for constant nerfs and updates just to keep your sorry butts happy and interested....Is it fair that 20% of the general public (smokers) polute the air in retaurants for the other 80%?
As for honor and respect. Your asking a bit much from ten year olds to grasp that one. The children now days are being brought up in (USA) a greed ruled environment that rewards narcicism instead of extinguish it. Good luck with the greifers. They are all destined to become serial killers or CEO's anyway.
i dont know why you think PVP should only be relegated to FPS games, or why you think MMORPG's shouldnt be PVP orientated, given that many players are extremely competitive.. and while i question your data concerning PVP player numbers, i do agree that the majority do seem to prefer PVE..... but that doesnt mean they don't get involved in PVP if its available.. on a casual basis.. it just means they don't play games purely for the PVP content.. as for them being either seriel killers or CEO's.. i can't help but feel that you are unhappy with the genre itself if you feel that way about your fellow players.. time for a MMO holiday perhaps?
PVP is dying because PVP in MMOs is lame. There are very few games where people fight on an equal footing so it's never a contest of skill. People who like PvP, and not just for ganking or strutting an epeen, play something non persistant where skills matter more than stats. If I want a competitive game I play a FPS. If I want a grind based progression +/- some story and social interaction I play a MMO.
For me I would like MMORPG pvp more if there were concequences. It is very rare for killing people to have no concequences anywhere in the real world, unless it is war. Even then there can be concequences from neutral parties that do not like two groups killing each other. Make the act of PvP have rewards, but also a penalty to balance it out so the time, place, and means effect when one PvP's. Eve kind of does this.
Comments
When Guild Wars 2 comes out i will point out that they got a more balanced pvp
And i'm sure of it, because one to three things that makes it balanced, first it isn't the gear that matters, mostly pvp games, or games that has pvp (take wow for example) Is it only the gear that desides if you win or loose, its not the *skill* of the player, it is only the person who farmed more gear that wins, and thats just how it is. (In guild wars they said they will change that, so its the skill of the player)
Secound reason is that you only have x amoun of skills. most games you got all the skills in the game (for that class) And just that makes it SO hard to balance a game, i won't say its impossible, but guild wars 2 just picked a easy and good way of dealing with that, so you have to pick x amoun of skills out from x amoun of skills. And then the last reason will come as soon as the game comes out, i'm sure i will be able to write more if they releashed more info then they already had.
But short: Yes pvp is dying because pvp is unbalanced and people hate loosing, and no it's not completely dead as there is hope ( Guild wars 2 fan...) So lets hope there be better games in the future that does something about this
Many company that are putting a pvp element into their games....do it to broaden the games appeal. Serious thought is not given to how its implemented since it's viewed as a needed add on to a pve game.The result..... player vs player conflict thats "me too" , poorly designed and quickly rejected by increasingly savy gamers .
The reason PvP is dying (and I do agree that it is), is because games don't do it right. Games are either a free-for-all, or they have "battlegrounds" or other things that actually end up killing real PvP. Free-for-all is stupid, because it's unrealistic (it cheapens PvP to just be able to kill anyone, anywhere), and "battlegrounds" are just flat out retarded in every possible way I can imagine.
I am not a fan of pvp in most games becouse it kill the PVE part of the game.
In most MMo's they Nerf a class or all of them. Why? Becouse PVP people wining that they cant kill someone. So the dev's go out of there way to make them happy. While never even thinking about the people that do not want to PVP just PVE. When the MMo nerfs for PVP they make it now harder to PVE for that class becouse that skill works for PVE. Now that skill is nerfed and now that class finds itself having trouble killing things that he or she had no problem befor the nerf.
After this happening to your class a few times you find your self becomming an Altaholic. Now that your class is no longer fun to play in PVE. I find myself soon quitting the MMo.
This is what is killing alot of MMo's for me Nerfing for PvP when im not even on a PVP server.
LOL
I think that this is the funniest post that I have ever read.
Look out!
Your shadow is behind you!!
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
1. PVP is a niche audience, but serving it poorly doesn't bring in more customers. It's not in a game's self-interests to offer poor PVP -- PVE interests should come first in most games (because those players outnumber PVP players) but by no means does this mean a game will feel rewarded for having shitty PVP. It won't.
2. Your examples are all over the board here (some of which conflict with your Point #1 that games shouldn't or don't put emphasis on PVP :P) You mention instant death and griefing as bad traits, which is true, but immediately (and strangely) seg into WOW which lacks both of these traits. And as an added bonus, you claim WOW shouldn't have had PVP gear without actually explaining why you think it was a bad move :P
3. Um...wha? What MMORPGs even have a problem with hacking in PVP? (or at all, apart from goldspam-influenced account hacking, which is a completely separate issue) There is so little hacking in MMORPG PVP that it's incredibly strange you bring it up as one of the ways PVP is "dying" today.
4. This is the only point you make which is accurate. Although it's more "interest" than "will" (but both terms amount to the same thing in the end, so no biggie.)
5. Far more players quit games from griefing than "stick with it". By a longshot.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There are some games that focus heavily on PVP. Like EVE and Guild Wars. But my guess is that the OP is talking about FFA PVP without the heavily protected areas like in EVE.
Well, simply said, those games will never be popular untill some company manages to make it balanced and prevent too much griefing and losing subs because of that. I still have to see the first solution that prevents noobs being griefed by early starters when they try to lvl their toon. So far, all 'solutions' can be easily exploited. And the funniest thing about this, is that those griefers dont understand why the games they play always lose subs.
Also, I think that e-sports PVP is more popular then the corpserun, losing loot kind of PVP. Most players find it silly to see naked toons running around randomly attacking other players, preferably noobs so itll be an easy kill. Just so they wont lose loot when they die. It is also ridiculous when the mechanics of a game encourage this behaviour.
I think that defines 80% of the people on internet, not just in PvP oriented games xD!
PvP's great it allows trolling and the best troll gets rewards that help he/she to troll harder, it's friggin great you should try it sometime!
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
I don't have time to respond to every point in this thread, most of which are poor arguments anyway, but this is the best I could find, so I will focus here.
The key problem that has made PvP such an issue, since UO, was the balance issue. Not necessarily balancing skills, because PvP isn't about fair combat all the time, but balancing PvP with other aspects of the game. Most games would suffer from this: its easy to kill someone who gathered for 2 hours and loot his corpse, then to do it yourself. Therefore, nash equilibrium assumed, eventually everyone will be PvPing for the value benefit, and gathers will die out. That's the nutshell concept.
Its the most accurate summary of what is wrong with PvP in most MMOs. However, it is not an argument against PvP in MMOs. Only against its implementation. Execution and presentation was ruined by the likes of WoW or perhaps EQ, who set the standard for future MMOs by integrating a majority demographic(single player gamers) into a genre(MMOs) presentated by their own game, which was based fundamentally on SINGLE PLAYER concepts, not the original MMORPG concepts. Concepts like: the guaranteed hero, instancing, static PvE, arena e-sport like PvP, etc. Essentially, to control and limit player interation as effectively as possible to make the game feel online, but to hold on to the profit generating and highly accessable concepts pioneered by single player games.
Breaking that standard, which is what the newest MMOs are trying to do very slowly by innovating and pushing for better player interaction, will result in another push for PvP, which is more or less the rough and basic aspect of player interaction, the core aspect of MMORPGs.
If they can finally balance and execute PvP properly, the idea of MMOs focusing on player interaction and not single player concepts will become the new standard overtime.
In a true MMO, people will not identify themselves as PvPers or PvErs, they will identify themselves as thieves, adventures, merchants, mercenaries, political leaders, religious figures, sailors, etc. That's what the genre was originally about, building worlds that could fit people with the will to be anything, and enjoying the spontaneous and original stories that come out of those interactions.
PvP started sucking once every MMO post-WoW started to copy Battlegrounds.
Instanced PvP is horrid. It's so boring now. I can't stand it. I'm hoping a future dev team will actually grow a pair and try to create something that's worthy of an audience above the age of 16.
Absurd.
These "carebears" have been present already in the good old MUD days.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "WoW" or "carebear". There are simply people who dont like to be ganked.
I think the main reason why PvP has lost its appeal is that it doesn't mean anything. In most popular games its been turned into a grind fest for _____ (insert whatever piece of cheese you'd like here, rep, armor, victory points...who cares). This canned approach to PvP may have novelty, and therefore popularity, at first, but that wears off quickly and you're left with a game who's PvP's only purpose is found in grinding for something. There is no risk of loss or substantial benefit that comes from winning.
It's kind of like telling Germany in WWII, "Go ahead and invade France, that's a PvP zone, but yeah, England, Scandinavia and North America are off limits, those places are just for people who don't want to fight. Oh...and if you win, whatever because we will reset everything in a few hours and you have to do it all again." Sounds ridiculous, but that's the model most popular MMO's are running off of.
I think it's the opposite really. Almost every new game that comes out has pvp a big part of it. Most of the Indie games coming out are trying to capture the pvp fans and are almost entirely pvp based. Now you might not like arena style pvp but its still considered pvp. Shorter small scale battles are just the current trend. In the past you had larger scale battles but they got smaller and smaller due to decreasing player participation. Whose fault is that? If you like those kind of battles you should have supported those games instead of letting them die out. Blaming "carebears" or the "mindless masses" is stupid. They never cared about large scale pvp anyway. Small scale battles actually test the player skill and cooperation to win where large scale battles tend to turn into a numbers game.
Lol this person gets so trolololed its lulz xD, i am so happy u get mad. I would never want to team pvp with a person like you. Pvp is good it weeds out the mentally weak
People can be stupid in pvp and act like little kids but u are even mroe stupid when u fall for it. Not to say that some of the racists are simply trolls trolololing stupid people and having extra fun when they kill you xD
All of the above, and more.
PvP is dieing because there are a million games, other than MMos, where you can go beat someone up online. And, you can do it without having to spend the time to develop and level your toon.
Why spend weeks/months building a toon when you can hop in a fps and kill someone in 3 minutes.
Furthermore, all the "pvp mmos" are riddled with hackers. It becomes a deathtrap for devs because if they ban all the hackers, they lose a huge chunk of subscirbers now. But, if they dont, over time they lose even more.
Lastly, there is always an inherent flaw in MMO pvp. There is always a zerg factor that drives people away. People look for safety in numbers and create massive alliances that respond to small skirmishes with ridiculous numbers, thus creating a situation where small skirmishes vanish. PvP'ers also tend to be griefers who target easy targets. To this day, games like Darkfall and Shadowbane have newby areas riddled with vets who target newbs for no good reason basicaly making the game impossible to bring in newer players. With time, the games die because vets retire and nobody new subscribe.
Now, I know I hurt the precious little egos of a few people here who claim they are pvp'ers and wouldnt do this stuff. They wouldnt cheat, they wouldnt zerg, they wouldnt slaughter noobs. But the fact is, they do. For every 1 person who actually wouldnt do those things(not just the ones who say they wouldnt) there are 10 who would do them and say they wouldnt.
You can argue these points all you want, but everyone with experience in major pvp titles know this is fact.
Well, apart from Eve Online, PvP in MMOs is worthless. There's no real risk, because the console kiddies just want to pop back all shiny and new the instant they die, without a hair out of place and no damage to gear whatsoever. There's no real reward either, because god forbid the console kiddies actually get looted or suffer a finacial penalty. What MMO PvP amounts to is fighting with foam rubber weapons while standing in a bouncy castle. Who the hell needs THAT! What a waste of time.
Wrong. Its the FFA pvp that sucks. FFA and arenas and bgs are not good pvp.
Your last line is the funniest. Daoc was the most popular MMO in the world before WoW, and it had awesome PVP, and PVP was the main focus of the game. So id say that not everyone with experience in major PVP titles know this fact. I repeat it is FFA pvp that sucks and that people do not like. When you have seperate zones for PVP and PVE like DAoC it works extremely well.
Daoc died down due in large part to buff bots, and the toa grind, not because the pvp didnt rock.
Which makes you think, why do people do it... becasue really most PvP is just a bunch of people who need somewhere to feel superior and bully people and in real life they wouldn't stand a chance of doing it.
If there was a risk involved (such as in Eve online) you still get the bullies, but those same bullies know that at any time the law (the bigger guilds) can come crashing down and crush them mercifulessly leaving them with nothing. Without that risk of loosing all your precious loot then bullies know that while you can crush them today, they can come back tomorrow and bother you.
QFT.
But the reverse is not quite true, either. I intensly dislike PVP but I`m no bully in RL.
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
Umm yea I agree with what afew people have said, PvP is poorly implemented in games. the whole Arena style or battleground PvP is rather pointless in most P2P MMRPG's guild wars will likely do it better than them, and for free.
How many games have or have had truly massive PvP?
DAOC, Darkfall, Planetside, EvE, aion, war?
Most of those are dated, not friendly to new players, or just simply terrible.
Until we see a +3 faction PvP game, that has multiple capture-able locations per map, with mobile or capture-able spawn points like Planetside or DAOC that can do PvP on a massive scale these new games will continue to be stale and boring, rift was no different and TOR shall be the same, 3 factions or FFA is smiply key to keep world pvp balanced and alive, perferably 3 faction since its alot more friendly to players, especially new players.
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
I think one reason PVP is struggling is because so many MMO games now rely on simplistic play models where classes are countered in a rock / paper/ scissors scheme and gear becomes the deciding factor in actual character power rating rather than any real skill. It’s hard to take seriously outside premades or rated battle grounds.
Another factor could be the difficulty your everyday casual player might have in seeing a game as a competitive e-sport. They are logging in for a different type of fun.
Then there is the turn off created by the hard core culture. Most people don’t pay their dollars to be griefed or bullied they play to have fun and with limited time and resources feel they could never compete. So why do it?
I miss the concept of the honorable, respectful, duel… A code of etiquette. In today’s game we just settle for a mugging of the weaker. Fast food…
Why would you want to play pvp in an MMORPG anyway? FPS have become exceptionaly cool lately. That comes down to either who is faster, smarter tactically or has the best hacks. MMORPG poll shows only 20% of RPG people play for PVP yet the rest of us have to settle for constant nerfs and updates just to keep your sorry butts happy and interested....Is it fair that 20% of the general public (smokers) polute the air in retaurants for the other 80%?
As for honor and respect. Your asking a bit much from ten year olds to grasp that one. The children now days are being brought up in (USA) a greed ruled environment that rewards narcicism instead of extinguish it. Good luck with the greifers. They are all destined to become serial killers or CEO's anyway.
i dont know why you think PVP should only be relegated to FPS games, or why you think MMORPG's shouldnt be PVP orientated, given that many players are extremely competitive.. and while i question your data concerning PVP player numbers, i do agree that the majority do seem to prefer PVE..... but that doesnt mean they don't get involved in PVP if its available.. on a casual basis.. it just means they don't play games purely for the PVP content.. as for them being either seriel killers or CEO's.. i can't help but feel that you are unhappy with the genre itself if you feel that way about your fellow players.. time for a MMO holiday perhaps?
PVP is dying because PVP in MMOs is lame. There are very few games where people fight on an equal footing so it's never a contest of skill. People who like PvP, and not just for ganking or strutting an epeen, play something non persistant where skills matter more than stats. If I want a competitive game I play a FPS. If I want a grind based progression +/- some story and social interaction I play a MMO.
MMOPvP is a fallacy.
For me I would like MMORPG pvp more if there were concequences. It is very rare for killing people to have no concequences anywhere in the real world, unless it is war. Even then there can be concequences from neutral parties that do not like two groups killing each other. Make the act of PvP have rewards, but also a penalty to balance it out so the time, place, and means effect when one PvP's. Eve kind of does this.