Think of a genre that at it's essence is a "pure" pvp game. Fighter, FPS, RTS, whatever.. doesn't matter so long as we're talking about a game that's built for PVP rather than Player versus Bots...
Ask yourself this--If Player A is more skilled than Player B what is the "standard way" to handicap so the game is fun? You buff Player B or you weaken Player A right? Many of these style of games even have a handicapping mechanism such as this built in automatically (most fighters for sure). Often times it is even explicitly labeled as the HANDICAP...
Easy enough right?
Ok, now think of a genre that is premised on the idea that actions you take have a meaninful and progressive POSITIVE impact on your character. That is that if you kill enough people your character itself will become better than it was before performing those actions... We can essentially see that what we are doing is "reverse handicapping". We're saying that the better player should additionally have more life, start with more resources, deal more damage, have better defense, etc. THAT is the problem!
TL;DR
In a true PVP game you progress to increase YOUR skill even if that means setting handicaps to artifically "create" someone good enough to challenge you in order to allow you to continue to progress, an RPG almost by definition reverses this. This, at its core, is why PVP in an MMORPG will always fail--the RPG genre by its very nature is antithetical to quality PVP.
If you want an MMO based on PVP to succeed what you're looking for isn't an MMORPG, it would have to be something new... an MMOPVPG if you will.
Think of a genre that at it's essence is a "pure" pvp game. Fighter, FPS, RTS, whatever.. doesn't matter so long as we're talking about a game that's built for PVP rather than Player versus Bots...
Ask yourself this--If Player A is more skilled than Player B what is the "standard way" to handicap so the game is fun? You buff Player B or you weaken Player A right? Many of these style of games even have a handicapping mechanism such as this built in automatically (most fighters for sure). Often times it is even explicitly labeled as the HANDICAP...
Easy enough right?
Ok, now think of a genre that is premised on the idea that actions you take have a meaninful and progressive POSITIVE impact on your character. That is that if you kill enough people your character itself will become better than it was before performing those actions... We can essentially see that what we are doing is "reverse handicapping". We're saying that the better player should additionally have more life, start with more resources, deal more damage, have better defense, etc. THAT is the problem!
TL;DR
In a true PVP game you progress to increase YOUR skill even if that means setting handicaps to artifically "create" someone good enough to challenge you in order to allow you to continue to progress, an RPG almost by definition reverses this. This, at its core, is why PVP in an MMORPG will always fail--the RPG genre by its very nature is antithetical to quality PVP.
If you want an MMO based on PVP to succeed what you're looking for isn't an MMORPG, it would have to be something new... an MMOPVPG if you will.
It's more developers addiction to DIKU and PnP. Fear of balance, not against other players, but the content they create, which cost alot and requires them to get alot, and players steamroll through balanced or not.
Very few say EVE has bad PVP. It's not a common complaint.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
It is not that pvp is dying , it is that pvp crowd while bigger then PVE crowd , they are easier to change there whims.
Most but not all , PvPer hate losing , that is the whole issue .
So in the end when they lose , the need for slander and all that other crap of ego meter.
Drives away a lot of players .
So it is very hard to make a game that satisfy to PvPer , while PvE crowd it is a lot easier to make a game for .
Thats kind of ridiculous. No one likes to lose. Thats why there are pure PVE'ers. It's the inability to cotrol the circumstances in which you lose. The TEF's in swg were a start for a game with pve only and pvp. But they killed that.
It's poor game design pure and simple. It's not very hard or even hard.
PVP died with the first item mall.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I don't take part in alot of PvP mostly because of the players. TBH I think that idiots/kids/asswipes have such a tendency to ruin PvP for alot of people that it is always going to suffer as being the part of a game that should be the greatest but is instead the worst. If the social aspects of an mmo were removed, then PvP would probably improve substantially. Of course, that can't possibly happen in an mmo, so instead we put up with watching PvP decline. Nobody is going to police the chat, nobody is going to teach these idiots that without the opponent there is no PvP. There is no accountability anymore. It seems the greatest goal in PvP is that their opponent rages in frustration.
There are times where I would applaud the demise of PvP. There are times where I would celebrate every closed PvP server, or failing PvP game. There are times where I want to tell all the gankers/greifers/douchebags/kids "HA HA! You're PVP is gone! PvE is all there is left! You mad bro? lulz"
It's really a shame, because I would much rather be playing PvP then PvE, but I just can't stand the players.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
In most MMOs PvP is utterly pointless you cant loot the corpse not even one item, there is no real objective in the world to capture or defend its just mindless ganging.
The death penalty is in most MMOs is also a joke people don't care if they die they just respawn at the nearest graveyard with a minor xp hit at that.
So why PvP in a MMO when the basic mecanics are the same as in any other FPS game, You die your respawn fully outfitted to charge back into the fight.
When the PvP is that childish then the ganking and the greifing getting out of hand due to no one is losing anything by dying so alot of wannabe hardcore pvper flexing thier epeens.
PvP dies course its not supose to be the "main feature" of games. fps's last xx months and to the fans of the title a few years but then its over, its the same in mmorpg's you fight fight fight fight fight, flame flame flame, think of bigger flames , think of worse "griefs" then the other guy/gal .. gain epeen rep and get bored.
people that play for pvp only are simply in the wrong gerne of games when it comes to mmorpg's . In Eve a game we might call the most succesfull still growing game whit strong pvp its not about the pvp , for some player it is, or well they think it is, but its all about controll, about keeping your space clean for your own goals and bussiness. the pvp only players in that game are simple pions, cannon flodder to be used by lack of thier own goals.
games like darkfall eventualy die due a to strong focus of pvp what turns it into a fps like game, hop in, kill a few, get bored, logoff. if a game has the mechanics that makes pvp worth someting then and only then pvp can florish, only then people who do not like to play the game but simply epeen boast and kill kill kill can find room in it and are welcomed by the players that controll them as cannon floder is better to use then your own shield..
this is why people keep hopping from game to game, mmo's have become what regulair multiplayer games bin for years.
give player a world filled whit non-pvp content , let them craft, let them trade, let them make quest, let them hunt, let them do social games, let them make thier own laws, let them free and then -slowly- and restricted add pvp into it , slowly add kingdom/empire building in it. let it grow slowly, and maybe then pvp will become meaningfull and florish.
for all else theres fps's or the 'new' type of hybrith games like apb
PvP dies course its not supose to be the "main feature" of games. fps's last xx months and to the fans of the title a few years but then its over, its the same in mmorpg's you fight fight fight fight fight, flame flame flame, think of bigger flames , think of worse "griefs" then the other guy/gal .. gain epeen rep and get bored.
people that play for pvp only are simply in the wrong gerne of games when it comes to mmorpg's . In Eve a game we might call the most succesfull still growing game whit strong pvp its not about the pvp , for some player it is, or well they think it is, but its all about controll, about keeping your space clean for your own goals and bussiness. the pvp only players in that game are simple pions, cannon flodder to be used by lack of thier own goals.
games like darkfall eventualy die due a to strong focus of pvp what turns it into a fps like game, hop in, kill a few, get bored, logoff. if a game has the mechanics that makes pvp worth someting then and only then pvp can florish, only then people who do not like to play the game but simply epeen boast and kill kill kill can find room in it and are welcomed by the players that controll them as cannon floder is better to use then your own shield..
this is why people keep hopping from game to game, mmo's have become what regulair multiplayer games bin for years.
give player a world filled whit non-pvp content , let them craft, let them trade, let them make quest, let them hunt, let them do social games, let them make thier own laws, let them free and then -slowly- and restricted add pvp into it , slowly add kingdom/empire building in it. let it grow slowly, and maybe then pvp will become meaningfull and florish.
for all else theres fps's or the 'new' type of hybrith games like apb
I agree with alot of that. PVP should be the last resort type of gameplay. Developers seem to be wary of virtual 'war' and try to make it an e-sport. They throw it in your face, or hide it away. Always pointless. Too much ideology.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
It is not that pvp is dying , it is that pvp crowd while bigger then PVE crowd , they are easier to change there whims.
Most but not all , PvPer hate losing , that is the whole issue .
So in the end when they lose , the need for slander and all that other crap of ego meter.
Drives away a lot of players .
So it is very hard to make a game that satisfy to PvPer , while PvE crowd it is a lot easier to make a game for .
Thats kind of ridiculous. No one likes to lose. Thats why there are pure PVE'ers. It's the inability to cotrol the circumstances in which you lose. The TEF's in swg were a start for a game with pve only and pvp. But they killed that.
It's poor game design pure and simple. It's not very hard or even hard.
PVP died with the first item mall.
So if winning is in your conclusion all that matters , not how the game is played .
Then everytime somebody lose , they quit !! unless the other is nerfed .
That is what leads to this stagnant market currently !
And lost of focus for pvp players , they all love to win , but somebody has to lose right ?
same as football matches , everybody hope there team will win , but in the end what matters more beside winning.
Was if it was a good match or not ,always losing is no fun , but always winning while much beter feeling .
Isn´t making your matches worthwhile to watch either .
I'd venture to say the chest beating neanderthals have helped ironically, to kill what they love.
Yes there are no PVE'ers like that. But devs love them.
I think the developers dislike of pvp is the only thing that has helped. You can be 10x's the jackass, and 90% are, but if you're a raider, you get to design the game. Gifts and perks galore. Hmm, lets look at the top raiding guilds vs the top pvp guilds and see who's who.
Devs should love or hate everyone equally.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The MMO gaming market is flooded with casuals and carebears, who want all the rewards and none of the risk or challenge. These players want everything handed to them.
Doing brainless quests and killing predictible AI is no challenge. Competing against real people in PVP is a challenge.
I would guess it's partly because players don't care about each other anymore in general. They don't care about their teamates beyond what they can help the individual accomplish. Other players have become a means to an end, rather than the entire reason to play an online game in the first place. This extends to PvE as well, but I think it does more harm overall to PvP, perhaps because online shooters fit into this as well, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
The MMO gaming market is flooded with casuals and carebears, who want all the rewards and none of the risk or challenge. These players want everything handed to them.
Doing brainless quests and killing predictible AI is no challenge. Competing against real people in PVP is a challenge. So all these lazy players stick with PVE because they fail in PVP due to a lack of skill.
Thanks for proving my point. This is exactly why I want PvP to fail. Douchebags think they are all that.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
The MMO gaming market is flooded with casuals and carebears, who want all the rewards and none of the risk or challenge. These players want everything handed to them.
Doing brainless quests and killing predictible AI is no challenge. Competing against real people in PVP is a challenge. So all these lazy players stick with PVE because they fail in PVP due to a lack of skill.
Thanks for proving my point. This is exactly why I want PvP to fail. Douchebags think they are all that.
Absolutely, when did we nerds start having the same terrible attitude as jocks?
The MMO gaming market is flooded with casuals and carebears, who want all the rewards and none of the risk or challenge. These players want everything handed to them.
Doing brainless quests and killing predictible AI is no challenge. Competing against real people in PVP is a challenge. So all these lazy players stick with PVE because they fail in PVP due to a lack of skill.
I do not think so , this is the standard classification that leads to PvP being stale .
You got such tough talk on the net about PvP , that it lured in the wannabee , those wannabee talk tough .
But cannot play there character , once a PVE comes along who has terrific PvP skills .
The wannabee , is double insulted . leading to nerdrage and insult cause nothing else left .
You have to understand you are playing PvE game , that most pve players love cause they min max all there options.
So they are easier to turn into pvp players , then PvP who thinks pressing buttons on that second , or excuting that move against AI scripted oppenent is boring .
A lot of people fail at endgame content PvE , but can easily go to the BG or PvP battleground and kill people .
So see in your eyes and explanation , you already failed in a lot of perspectief by bashing one of the other gamemechanics.
Infact it is more often that failed PvE turn to PvP cause it is much easier to learn .
Real life is challenging enough for alot of people. They want to come home from their jobs to relax and have fun, not get constantly ganked by 12 year olds.
It is not that pvp is dying , it is that pvp crowd while bigger then PVE crowd , they are easier to change there whims.
Most but not all , PvPer hate losing , that is the whole issue .
So in the end when they lose , the need for slander and all that other crap of ego meter.
Drives away a lot of players .
So it is very hard to make a game that satisfy to PvPer , while PvE crowd it is a lot easier to make a game for .
Thats kind of ridiculous. No one likes to lose. Thats why there are pure PVE'ers. It's the inability to cotrol the circumstances in which you lose. The TEF's in swg were a start for a game with pve only and pvp. But they killed that.
It's poor game design pure and simple. It's not very hard or even hard.
PVP died with the first item mall.
So if winning is in your conclusion all that matters , not how the game is played .
Then everytime somebody lose , they quit !! unless the other is nerfed .
That is what leads to this stagnant market currently !
And lost of focus for pvp players , they all love to win , but somebody has to lose right ?
same as football matches , everybody hope there team will win , but in the end what matters more beside winning.
Was if it was a good match or not ,always losing is no fun , but always winning while much beter feeling .
Isn´t making your matches worthwhile to watch either .
What?
PVP isnt an e-sport. It's not. It never will be. Ever. Poor game design makes people think it is. It's not. It's disgusting to try an make it one.
Have no idea what you mean actually.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The MMO gaming market is flooded with casuals and carebears, who want all the rewards and none of the risk or challenge. These players want everything handed to them.
Doing brainless quests and killing predictible AI is no challenge. Competing against real people in PVP is a challenge. So all these lazy players stick with PVE because they fail in PVP due to a lack of skill.
I do not think so , this is the standard classification that leads to PvP being stale .
You got such tough talk on the net about PvP , that it lured in the wannabee , those wannabee talk tough .
But cannot play there character , once a PVE comes along who has terrific PvP skills .
The wannabee , is double insulted . leading to nerdrage and insult cause nothing else left .
You have to understand you are playing PvE game , that most pve players love cause they min max all there options.
So they are easier to turn into pvp players , then PvP who thinks pressing buttons on that second , or excuting that move against AI scripted oppenent is boring .
A lot of people fail at endgame content PvE , but can easily go to the BG or PvP battleground and kill people .
So see in your eyes and explanation , you already failed in a lot of perspectief by bashing one of the other gamemechanics.
Infact it is more often that failed PvE turn to PvP cause it is much easier to learn .
This is just lol. In PVE the mobs do the exact same thing every single time. How is that hard? Boring, time consuming, boring, tedious, boring, but definately not hard. Unless you mean its hard to stay awake while doing endless PVE instanced dungeons, and easy to stay awake during PVP then i agree 100%
The OP asks why PVP is dying. I just stated my thoughts, wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings (I may have gone a little too far with "lack of skill" comment, sorry about that).
I think many gamers are more concerned with how cool their armor looks, than the actual fun and challenge of the game.
You can't deny the fact that most people look for the path of least resistance. PVP provides a challenge that many players would rather avoid, am I right?
I love PVE (I'm actually playing FFXI while I type this message), but some of my greatest gaming experiences came from PVP.
OK first i did not read 99% of this thread. So here goes my 2 cents
PvP is not dieing. Gamer desires to pvp are as strong if not stronger than any time in the past. The problem is almost every game ever build implamented it very very very poorly. Enough said no need to point out the man many games that failed at it or why they failed we all have out own opinions.
SOmeone here I don't really care who it was said item mall games ruined pvp. This is also NOT true. Again it was very poor game design that did that.
Now let me point you lot in the right direction AIKA online. Its a new game in open beta in the US. Aika is a free to play item mall game. PvP is raging in this game every single day. The battles are big with several hundred perside with little or not lag.
NOw the pinacle of gear progression in this game is that which has been enhanced to +11 and it is I would say impossible to get such gear without spending a decent amount of cash on item mall gear enhancement supplies.
But what everyone fails to understand is this. If you have +11 gear and you make this public knowledge you WILL become the primary target of every player in your enemies nation. YOu will be the first one to die in every major pvp fight. It will not mater how uber your gear is becuase this game is about armies fighting armies and with 50-100 people throwing everything they have at your that +11 gear is not gona save you.
So no item malls do not ruin games. If anything they give us cool targets to kill.
Thats my 2 cents so if any of you are real pvpers you should check out Aika. It has the best pvp I have ever seen and the pvp community there is very cool. Nothing like the bottom of barrel dregs you would normally get from a pvp game community.
PS. i would love to site here and tell you all about Aika but you would be better served by downloading it and trying it out. after all its free to play so you lose nothing. It took me 15 min to download and instal and i got hooked.
And to be honest i was dead set on hating the game because of the item mall ...i have since changed my mind about the item mall and think its just a diff modle nothing more.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition 8 gig Ram Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
You have a population of players whose goal in life is to torment and frustrait those players with the very least investment and comitment to the game. The new blood. So, after a while of being unable to finish quests and level, of being killed without seeing the attacker, or obliterated by someone who has twinked up his low level alt into a giant killer in raid gear, those new players get tired ofit. Of PvP, or the game.
Best case, PvP becomes endgame only, which means you have a population only of those who get that far. This has its own problems becase it suddenly shifts playstyle on people and many wont like it, and you are left with people acustomed to being pretty powerfull along the climb now on the low rungs again. Even worse if PvP and PvE requre vastly differing gear and disposition of charicter resorces.
Worst case, all too common in my case and many others. They get ganked once too often, hit one of the games other flaws, newb traps or speed bumps, log out and never come back.
PvP, in other words, holds a known and specific band of fans whose purpose in life is to make the game non-fun for new players, a risk less endemic to PvE. (PvE has its share of greifers, but these are less encoraged to be so by the game, and can be more easaly dealt with)
So, this being the case, why would any dev set itself up to see a chunk of new blood simply give up due to the actions of other players?
If you want PvP, you need to have rewards for winning, low to no punishmensts for loosing (This includes time to get back where you were standing) and fair fights at all levels. I played a game once where I was target to a ganker, sided PvP, it took me a walk across three large maps to get to my quest site, I'd get there, laden with death penalties, get ganked and need to start over. Not permitted to talk in zone at that stage, so way to get rid of him. after the third time, never logged in again
I like PvP. I used to love DAoC, the lower tiers of WAR were fun, and I liked the WoW BGs. The thing I hate is the idiot players chasing down people that they can kill 10 times over in a single blow. The problem is that there isn't jsut one every now and then. There are always these idiots around.
In all the FFA PvP games the low levels are ruined by gankers. What exactly is the point of that other than to say its ffa?
PVP isnt an e-sport. It's not. It never will be. Ever. Poor game design makes people think it is. It's not. It's disgusting to try an make it one.
Have no idea what you mean actually.
It already is an e-sport. GW for one and WoW if I remember correctly. Pretty much any game with instanced arena PvP if done right. Even Eve's Alliance Tournament is a form of e-sport.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
Think of a genre that at it's essence is a "pure" pvp game. Fighter, FPS, RTS, whatever.. doesn't matter so long as we're talking about a game that's built for PVP rather than Player versus Bots...
Ask yourself this--If Player A is more skilled than Player B what is the "standard way" to handicap so the game is fun? You buff Player B or you weaken Player A right? Many of these style of games even have a handicapping mechanism such as this built in automatically (most fighters for sure). Often times it is even explicitly labeled as the HANDICAP...
Easy enough right?
Ok, now think of a genre that is premised on the idea that actions you take have a meaninful and progressive POSITIVE impact on your character. That is that if you kill enough people your character itself will become better than it was before performing those actions... We can essentially see that what we are doing is "reverse handicapping". We're saying that the better player should additionally have more life, start with more resources, deal more damage, have better defense, etc. THAT is the problem!
TL;DR
In a true PVP game you progress to increase YOUR skill even if that means setting handicaps to artifically "create" someone good enough to challenge you in order to allow you to continue to progress, an RPG almost by definition reverses this. This, at its core, is why PVP in an MMORPG will always fail--the RPG genre by its very nature is antithetical to quality PVP.
If you want an MMO based on PVP to succeed what you're looking for isn't an MMORPG, it would have to be something new... an MMOPVPG if you will.
It's more developers addiction to DIKU and PnP. Fear of balance, not against other players, but the content they create, which cost alot and requires them to get alot, and players steamroll through balanced or not.
Very few say EVE has bad PVP. It's not a common complaint.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
It is not that pvp is dying , it is that pvp crowd while bigger then PVE crowd , they are easier to change there whims.
Most but not all , PvPer hate losing , that is the whole issue .
So in the end when they lose , the need for slander and all that other crap of ego meter.
Drives away a lot of players .
So it is very hard to make a game that satisfy to PvPer , while PvE crowd it is a lot easier to make a game for .
Thats kind of ridiculous. No one likes to lose. Thats why there are pure PVE'ers. It's the inability to cotrol the circumstances in which you lose. The TEF's in swg were a start for a game with pve only and pvp. But they killed that.
It's poor game design pure and simple. It's not very hard or even hard.
PVP died with the first item mall.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I don't take part in alot of PvP mostly because of the players. TBH I think that idiots/kids/asswipes have such a tendency to ruin PvP for alot of people that it is always going to suffer as being the part of a game that should be the greatest but is instead the worst. If the social aspects of an mmo were removed, then PvP would probably improve substantially. Of course, that can't possibly happen in an mmo, so instead we put up with watching PvP decline. Nobody is going to police the chat, nobody is going to teach these idiots that without the opponent there is no PvP. There is no accountability anymore. It seems the greatest goal in PvP is that their opponent rages in frustration.
There are times where I would applaud the demise of PvP. There are times where I would celebrate every closed PvP server, or failing PvP game. There are times where I want to tell all the gankers/greifers/douchebags/kids "HA HA! You're PVP is gone! PvE is all there is left! You mad bro? lulz"
It's really a shame, because I would much rather be playing PvP then PvE, but I just can't stand the players.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
In most MMOs PvP is utterly pointless you cant loot the corpse not even one item, there is no real objective in the world to capture or defend its just mindless ganging.
The death penalty is in most MMOs is also a joke people don't care if they die they just respawn at the nearest graveyard with a minor xp hit at that.
So why PvP in a MMO when the basic mecanics are the same as in any other FPS game, You die your respawn fully outfitted to charge back into the fight.
When the PvP is that childish then the ganking and the greifing getting out of hand due to no one is losing anything by dying so alot of wannabe hardcore pvper flexing thier epeens.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
PvP dies course its not supose to be the "main feature" of games. fps's last xx months and to the fans of the title a few years but then its over, its the same in mmorpg's you fight fight fight fight fight, flame flame flame, think of bigger flames , think of worse "griefs" then the other guy/gal .. gain epeen rep and get bored.
people that play for pvp only are simply in the wrong gerne of games when it comes to mmorpg's . In Eve a game we might call the most succesfull still growing game whit strong pvp its not about the pvp , for some player it is, or well they think it is, but its all about controll, about keeping your space clean for your own goals and bussiness. the pvp only players in that game are simple pions, cannon flodder to be used by lack of thier own goals.
games like darkfall eventualy die due a to strong focus of pvp what turns it into a fps like game, hop in, kill a few, get bored, logoff. if a game has the mechanics that makes pvp worth someting then and only then pvp can florish, only then people who do not like to play the game but simply epeen boast and kill kill kill can find room in it and are welcomed by the players that controll them as cannon floder is better to use then your own shield..
this is why people keep hopping from game to game, mmo's have become what regulair multiplayer games bin for years.
give player a world filled whit non-pvp content , let them craft, let them trade, let them make quest, let them hunt, let them do social games, let them make thier own laws, let them free and then -slowly- and restricted add pvp into it , slowly add kingdom/empire building in it. let it grow slowly, and maybe then pvp will become meaningfull and florish.
for all else theres fps's or the 'new' type of hybrith games like apb
I'd venture to say the chest beating neanderthals have helped ironically, to kill what they love.
I agree with alot of that. PVP should be the last resort type of gameplay. Developers seem to be wary of virtual 'war' and try to make it an e-sport. They throw it in your face, or hide it away. Always pointless. Too much ideology.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
So if winning is in your conclusion all that matters , not how the game is played .
Then everytime somebody lose , they quit !! unless the other is nerfed .
That is what leads to this stagnant market currently !
And lost of focus for pvp players , they all love to win , but somebody has to lose right ?
same as football matches , everybody hope there team will win , but in the end what matters more beside winning.
Was if it was a good match or not ,always losing is no fun , but always winning while much beter feeling .
Isn´t making your matches worthwhile to watch either .
Yes there are no PVE'ers like that. But devs love them.
I think the developers dislike of pvp is the only thing that has helped. You can be 10x's the jackass, and 90% are, but if you're a raider, you get to design the game. Gifts and perks galore. Hmm, lets look at the top raiding guilds vs the top pvp guilds and see who's who.
Devs should love or hate everyone equally.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Here's my theory:
The MMO gaming market is flooded with casuals and carebears, who want all the rewards and none of the risk or challenge. These players want everything handed to them.
Doing brainless quests and killing predictible AI is no challenge. Competing against real people in PVP is a challenge.
I would guess it's partly because players don't care about each other anymore in general. They don't care about their teamates beyond what they can help the individual accomplish. Other players have become a means to an end, rather than the entire reason to play an online game in the first place. This extends to PvE as well, but I think it does more harm overall to PvP, perhaps because online shooters fit into this as well, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Thanks for proving my point. This is exactly why I want PvP to fail. Douchebags think they are all that.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Absolutely, when did we nerds start having the same terrible attitude as jocks?
I do not think so , this is the standard classification that leads to PvP being stale .
You got such tough talk on the net about PvP , that it lured in the wannabee , those wannabee talk tough .
But cannot play there character , once a PVE comes along who has terrific PvP skills .
The wannabee , is double insulted . leading to nerdrage and insult cause nothing else left .
You have to understand you are playing PvE game , that most pve players love cause they min max all there options.
So they are easier to turn into pvp players , then PvP who thinks pressing buttons on that second , or excuting that move against AI scripted oppenent is boring .
A lot of people fail at endgame content PvE , but can easily go to the BG or PvP battleground and kill people .
So see in your eyes and explanation , you already failed in a lot of perspectief by bashing one of the other gamemechanics.
Infact it is more often that failed PvE turn to PvP cause it is much easier to learn .
Real life is challenging enough for alot of people. They want to come home from their jobs to relax and have fun, not get constantly ganked by 12 year olds.
What?
PVP isnt an e-sport. It's not. It never will be. Ever. Poor game design makes people think it is. It's not. It's disgusting to try an make it one.
Have no idea what you mean actually.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
This is just lol. In PVE the mobs do the exact same thing every single time. How is that hard? Boring, time consuming, boring, tedious, boring, but definately not hard. Unless you mean its hard to stay awake while doing endless PVE instanced dungeons, and easy to stay awake during PVP then i agree 100%
The OP asks why PVP is dying. I just stated my thoughts, wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings (I may have gone a little too far with "lack of skill" comment, sorry about that).
I think many gamers are more concerned with how cool their armor looks, than the actual fun and challenge of the game.
You can't deny the fact that most people look for the path of least resistance. PVP provides a challenge that many players would rather avoid, am I right?
I love PVE (I'm actually playing FFXI while I type this message), but some of my greatest gaming experiences came from PVP.
OK first i did not read 99% of this thread. So here goes my 2 cents
PvP is not dieing. Gamer desires to pvp are as strong if not stronger than any time in the past. The problem is almost every game ever build implamented it very very very poorly. Enough said no need to point out the man many games that failed at it or why they failed we all have out own opinions.
SOmeone here I don't really care who it was said item mall games ruined pvp. This is also NOT true. Again it was very poor game design that did that.
Now let me point you lot in the right direction AIKA online. Its a new game in open beta in the US. Aika is a free to play item mall game. PvP is raging in this game every single day. The battles are big with several hundred perside with little or not lag.
NOw the pinacle of gear progression in this game is that which has been enhanced to +11 and it is I would say impossible to get such gear without spending a decent amount of cash on item mall gear enhancement supplies.
But what everyone fails to understand is this. If you have +11 gear and you make this public knowledge you WILL become the primary target of every player in your enemies nation. YOu will be the first one to die in every major pvp fight. It will not mater how uber your gear is becuase this game is about armies fighting armies and with 50-100 people throwing everything they have at your that +11 gear is not gona save you.
So no item malls do not ruin games. If anything they give us cool targets to kill.
Thats my 2 cents so if any of you are real pvpers you should check out Aika. It has the best pvp I have ever seen and the pvp community there is very cool. Nothing like the bottom of barrel dregs you would normally get from a pvp game community.
PS. i would love to site here and tell you all about Aika but you would be better served by downloading it and trying it out. after all its free to play so you lose nothing. It took me 15 min to download and instal and i got hooked.
And to be honest i was dead set on hating the game because of the item mall ...i have since changed my mind about the item mall and think its just a diff modle nothing more.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
8 gig Ram
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
PvP is still very viable, just add value and meaning to it rather than grind for max gear and then stalemate - What's the point?
Give players something to fight for rather than gear.
Its the Gankers.
You have a population of players whose goal in life is to torment and frustrait those players with the very least investment and comitment to the game. The new blood. So, after a while of being unable to finish quests and level, of being killed without seeing the attacker, or obliterated by someone who has twinked up his low level alt into a giant killer in raid gear, those new players get tired ofit. Of PvP, or the game.
Best case, PvP becomes endgame only, which means you have a population only of those who get that far. This has its own problems becase it suddenly shifts playstyle on people and many wont like it, and you are left with people acustomed to being pretty powerfull along the climb now on the low rungs again. Even worse if PvP and PvE requre vastly differing gear and disposition of charicter resorces.
Worst case, all too common in my case and many others. They get ganked once too often, hit one of the games other flaws, newb traps or speed bumps, log out and never come back.
PvP, in other words, holds a known and specific band of fans whose purpose in life is to make the game non-fun for new players, a risk less endemic to PvE. (PvE has its share of greifers, but these are less encoraged to be so by the game, and can be more easaly dealt with)
So, this being the case, why would any dev set itself up to see a chunk of new blood simply give up due to the actions of other players?
If you want PvP, you need to have rewards for winning, low to no punishmensts for loosing (This includes time to get back where you were standing) and fair fights at all levels. I played a game once where I was target to a ganker, sided PvP, it took me a walk across three large maps to get to my quest site, I'd get there, laden with death penalties, get ganked and need to start over. Not permitted to talk in zone at that stage, so way to get rid of him. after the third time, never logged in again
I like PvP. I used to love DAoC, the lower tiers of WAR were fun, and I liked the WoW BGs. The thing I hate is the idiot players chasing down people that they can kill 10 times over in a single blow. The problem is that there isn't jsut one every now and then. There are always these idiots around.
In all the FFA PvP games the low levels are ruined by gankers. What exactly is the point of that other than to say its ffa?
It already is an e-sport. GW for one and WoW if I remember correctly. Pretty much any game with instanced arena PvP if done right. Even Eve's Alliance Tournament is a form of e-sport.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky