It's more a matter of plausable deniability than cost, forums simply aren't that expensive to run and they already have people who spend plenty of time on fan forums that could be spent on their own. What it's all about is that, going back to the GW days, the fansites can, will, and do ban and moderate extremely heavily, far more so than any company could ever get away with. Anet gets to say to unhappy customers both "Go to the fan sites" and, when they're banned there for posting anything contrary, "Sorry, nothing we can do about it, it's not our forum", and thus get forums clean of anything remotely contrary to the company line. They maintain an "official" presence (Hell, in the old days half the posts on two fansites used to be by Gaile Gray) while letting someone else do all the dirty work.
For them it's win-win, but why anyone save the blindest of fans would think this acceptable remains a mystery.
... if this is true, then why is GW2Guru forum full of people bitching nonstop about every single possible aspect of the game?
They complain about pricing, about combat, about story, about the voice acting, about the skills, about crafting... just look at a list of threads, it's like a laundry list of complaints... seriously, the people complaining there make the most hardcore Star Wars or Sandbox fan complaining about GW2 seem like a GW2 shill. Partially because they tend to be better informed, so the complaints that do show up are more legitimate than 'Oh, GW2 is just nothing but a bunch of instances'
There are threads where people mention the wonders of SW:TOR or Tera, or whatever. Sure, the people there might be outnumbered by fans, but they're not silenced. Go look at WoW and how much they enjoy shutting down threads about Rifts.
Maybe you live in a crazy mirror world where your conspiracy theories are all true. :T I don't know how the GW forums used to be, but the GW2 forums certainly aren't like that. Not GW2Guru, anyway, can't speak for the others.
lolwat no forums? That's ridiculous. It can cost next to nothing, just let a few trusted fans from guildwars2guru be mods or something.
It's often a resonable way to keep a dialoge between the players and the devs
Guru is really the de facto "official" site. It has loads of information, an incredibly knowledgable (and sizable) group of users, and ArenaNet pays close attention to it. When false information starts getting spread around, you can count on a quick response from an ArenaNet employee to clear it up. If you want the latest news on the game, you can count on someone at Guru posting a link to it within minutes of it being published. And you'll get information from all over the world, not just what the big names in North America are saying.
Frankly, few "official" forums can hold a candle to what they're doing over at Guru for Guild Wars 2. My only beef with it is the sometimes petulant and unprofessional moderation. Again, very much like many other "official" forums out there.
lolwat no forums? That's ridiculous. It can cost next to nothing, just let a few trusted fans from guildwars2guru be mods or something.
It's often a resonable way to keep a dialoge between the players and the devs
Guru is really the de facto "official" site. It has loads of information, an incredibly knowledgable (and sizable) group of users, and ArenaNet pays close attention to it. When false information starts getting spread around, you can count on a quick response from an ArenaNet employee to clear it up. If you want the latest news on the game, you can count on someone at Guru posting a link to it within minutes of it being published. And you'll get information from all over the world, not just what the big names in North America are saying.
Frankly, few "official" forums can hold a candle to what they're doing over at Guru for Guild Wars 2. My only beef with it is the sometimes petulant and unprofessional moderation. Again, very much like many other "official" forums out there.
Obviously I'm biased, but I find GW2Guru to have a much more enjoyable community then certain communities on certain official forums.
Maybe you live in a crazy mirror world where your conspiracy theories are all true. :T I don't know how the GW forums used to be, but the GW2 forums certainly aren't like that. Not GW2Guru, anyway, can't speak for the others.
lolwat no forums? That's ridiculous. It can cost next to nothing, just let a few trusted fans from guildwars2guru be mods or something.
It's often a resonable way to keep a dialoge between the players and the devs
Guru is really the de facto "official" site. It has loads of information, an incredibly knowledgable (and sizable) group of users, and ArenaNet pays close attention to it. When false information starts getting spread around, you can count on a quick response from an ArenaNet employee to clear it up. If you want the latest news on the game, you can count on someone at Guru posting a link to it within minutes of it being published. And you'll get information from all over the world, not just what the big names in North America are saying.
Frankly, few "official" forums can hold a candle to what they're doing over at Guru for Guild Wars 2. My only beef with it is the sometimes petulant and unprofessional moderation. Again, very much like many other "official" forums out there.
Obviously I'm biased, but I find GW2Guru to have a much more enjoyable community then certain communities on certain official forums.
I'm biased too and GW2Guru has a good community. Extremely knowledgable and incredibly active. But it also falls prey to the problems that commonly plague any other community such as 'uneven' (trying to be diplomatic) moderation.
But one thing that irks me, which I find this community is more prone to than others, is how readily some people get their hackles up when incorrect information is published somewhere about the game. In some cases, there would be a glowingly positive review that makes a few factual errors, but the reaction tends more toward outrage than celebration. I think that has a lot to do with some GW2 fans feeling a bit like underdogs in the MMO arena and start acting like the little guy carrying a BIG chip on his shoulder. It just becomes more noticeable on Guru because of the high fan concentration.
But anyway, like any other forum, GW2Guru has it's failings. But standing side to side with any other fan site or official forum, it still stands taller than the rest. I think the OP would be shooting himself in the foot if he let something so trivial interfere with his view of the game, principles or no.
By the way, there are a lot of awesome people on Guru too, and most are much more objective and fair-minded than the example I gave. The community has it's quirks, which is what makes it interesting to be part of.
I'm biased too and GW2Guru has a good community. Extremely knowledgable and incredibly active. But it also falls prey to the problems that commonly plague any other community such as 'uneven' (trying to be diplomatic) moderation.
But one thing that irks me, which I find this community is more prone to than others, is how readily some people get their hackles up when incorrect information is published somewhere about the game. In some cases, there would be a glowingly positive review that makes a few factual errors, but the reaction tends more toward outrage than celebration. I think that has a lot to do with some GW2 fans feeling a bit like underdogs in the MMO arena and start acting like the little guy carrying a BIG chip on his shoulder. It just becomes more noticeable on Guru because of the high fan concentration.
But anyway, like any other forum, GW2Guru has it's failings. But standing side to side with any other fan site or official forum, it still stands taller than the rest. I think the OP would be shooting himself in the foot if he let something so trivial interfere with his view of the game, principles or no.
By the way, there are a lot of awesome people on Guru too, and most are much more objective and fair-minded than the example I gave. The community has it's quirks, which is what makes it interesting to be part of.
At least those heavy-handed mods over that GW2guru manage clear up the trash on those forums and rather quickly.
I'm biased too and GW2Guru has a good community. Extremely knowledgable and incredibly active. But it also falls prey to the problems that commonly plague any other community such as 'uneven' (trying to be diplomatic) moderation.
But one thing that irks me, which I find this community is more prone to than others, is how readily some people get their hackles up when incorrect information is published somewhere about the game. In some cases, there would be a glowingly positive review that makes a few factual errors, but the reaction tends more toward outrage than celebration. I think that has a lot to do with some GW2 fans feeling a bit like underdogs in the MMO arena and start acting like the little guy carrying a BIG chip on his shoulder. It just becomes more noticeable on Guru because of the high fan concentration.
But anyway, like any other forum, GW2Guru has it's failings. But standing side to side with any other fan site or official forum, it still stands taller than the rest. I think the OP would be shooting himself in the foot if he let something so trivial interfere with his view of the game, principles or no.
By the way, there are a lot of awesome people on Guru too, and most are much more objective and fair-minded than the example I gave. The community has it's quirks, which is what makes it interesting to be part of.
At least those heavy-handed mods over that GW2guru manage clear up the trash on those forums and rather quickly.
Thank you for an example of unprofessional moderation. If a mod wants to close a thread, for whatever reason (it doesn't really matter), give a brief explanation as to why, then close it. What they shouldn't do is get involved in the thread by voicing their own opinion on the topic (basically launching a parting salvo into the fray) before shutting off the ability for anyone else to follow up.
Want to see an example of good moderation? Here ya go: CLOSED
See the difference? Mods shouldn't be stepping into the muck with everyone else. At Guru, it seems to happen frequently.
Also the people who visit these (fan) forums tend to know the game (inside-out), so concerns that seem to be brought up are more important than when a typical newcomer will ask "Does this game have a monthly fee?"
That's one of the bigger issues as well. These fan sites tend to attract elitists pricks for the lack of better word. Sure some people can be very helpful, but overall these fan-run forums are like gated communities, where outsiders are not welcome and are generally constantly put down for their ignorance. These elitist pricks think that everybody should go and read an entire wiki about the game before they come to the forums and ask a question. Not everybody has time or will to hunt around the internet for pieces of information that they may or may not find.
Using fan-run forums to communicate with your CUSTOMERS is simply a bad form, and nonprofessional... because, guess what, those fans are not professional and they are more concerned about their AD revenue than they are about serving the public. They cut and trim anything that would reflect bad on their site or that would decrease their advertisement revenue, even if the topic/issue is 100% valid. As long as it is overly negative it will be removed and users/posters punished.
Remember warhammeralliance.com? For those of you that don't, that was the unofficial-official forum for WAR, like GW2Guru.com. I was a moderator there pre-launch. I know what I'm talking about. We, moderators, were instructed to strike down any and all negative topics, regardless of their validity. I was disgusted with that, and then went on ahead and created BetaLeaks.com, which if you were following WAR and AoC prelauch you must have heard off. I took all the privileged information that I was getting as a moderator on WA website and shared it through betaleaks. Point being, that was very unprofessional of me, because I am not a professional, Shelby (owner of WA) is not a professional, and YET we had almost an 'official' status in the eyes of many WAR followers. It's really a clusterfuck and it boggles my mind that companies still practice this method in this day and age.
If Aventurine (Darkfall) and Starvault (Mortal Online) can afford to run official forums, there is no excuse for any other game developer not to. Official forums are the best political tool that guilds can ever hope for to get. Politics, drama, alliances, wars, friendships among guilds are often executed on official forums more so than they are in-game. Guru for example doesn't even have a forum section where guilds can advertise/discuss/recruit/fight/argue. The 'social group' thing is lame at best.
I would sooner accept that they do not use the forums period, at all, over accepting them making official statements on fan forums.
Bummer. I can see the point about non-sub game not having an official forum because they don't have a way to separate real active players from trolls and haters. Nevertheless tho, it's another point on the minus side of things on my personal GW2 score sheet. I find forums essential for MMOs, and no fansite will cut it and I will never use a fan-run forums as a means of communication with devs. I'm well aware that a lot of people could care less. I can respect you opinion and take on the issue if you can accept mine.
I guess it's back to the RIFT forums for you and the OP then. GW1 did okay without a forum and GW2 will be the same but i bet any money you will use GW2 Guru when the time comes lol.
Did you ever visit the RIFT forums,i guess you have and you have no problem with thoses cess pit forums?
And why would they need to learn anything from WAR?
GW came out long befoire WAR...
Yeah I guess you fail at reading (hint: I'm the OP and the post you qoted above). I come from Darkfall, so you need not tell me about the cesspool. I would still take any cesspool official forums over fan-run sites. I mentioned WAR because at first they didn't want to implement forums, and eventually ended up adding them.
Who cares about Guild Wars, seriously. That's not even an MMO, we can argue that in another topic however. Guild Wars 2 seems to have improved over the orginal GW ten times over and then some. I was hoping they would also bring bring their community approach up to modern standards as well.
1) You say who cares about Guild Wars on a Guild Wars forum...Read that carefully.
2) What does GW1 not being an MMO have to do wtih anything about official forums?
And certainly, I will not use GURU, or any other fansite, ever. I would sooner (and most likely) not play the game instead if it came down to that certain issue.
If you're willing to let the lack of an "official forum" deter you from playing a game, more power to ya. Anet has already stated their position on official forums. If it's that big of a deal to you, don't play. Not like Anet will really care. Also as stated previously in this thread, Guru is sort of the de facto official forum. All the CM's and devs review/post on guru. Only difference really is it's not managed by Anet.
Edit: Oh, and as far as Rift forums, it's fairly solid and informative. There is a lot of whining in PVP section it seems. But at least they have a "PVP" section. I quickly scanned guildwars2guru and they don't even offer a section dedicated to PVP. Fail fans are fail.
How is that fail, when we know nothing on PvP at this point? All PvP speculation would currently go in Tyrian Assembly with all the other speculation. You a critiquing a fan-forum on a topic in an unreleased game that we don't know anything other than it'll be there. If you actually bothered to look at Guild Wars Guru you would notice the forum titled "Gladiator's Arena", for all PvP talk.
I've noticed a few folks comparing GW2Guru's forums to the official forum's for games that are already in full release, and finding the former lacking. While there are fair criticisms to be had, this is not a fair way to make them.
Guru's forums are for a game that hasn't even had a beta announcement yet, let alone a release date. Is it any wonder that there are some features lacking that you might be accustomed to with other games? For instance, PvP and guild boards. Why have a forum to discuss PvP when there is actually nothing to discuss yet? Same for guilds. While some people might be considering putting together a guild even now, this far out, how many are serious and will actually be around come release time? Putting up a forum for them right now is just premature.
If you want a better idea of what GW2Guru's forums will look like come release time, you should check out the predecessor site for GW1. You'll find a lot of those "missing" features are present there. Likely, they'll make a reappearance on GW2Guru, when they become relevant.
As much as I love Guild Wars 2, I must agree with Drvanitus here, it's really bad form not to have an official forum, because with an official forum you have professional people who're paid to manage the community and be objective. Allowing a fan forum to be the main focus of a game as big as this opens the door to all sorts of bias, in regards to PvP, builds, what have you. It creates a 'the moderator is always ight' atmosphere, because without the training they'd require to handle all topics objectively, the amateur handling will solely result in bias.
I've seen this happen with so many fan forums in the past, and it's made the experience uncomfortable for any group who happen to disagree with a moderator on any topic, since a moderator will use their position of power to force their viewpoinit. This leads to more fan forums popping up, and an ever more fractured community, with people spreading out across the Internet, and information being locked up to small fan forums rather than being widely disseminated. This is a problem, yes, but it's one that's easily solved by having an official forum.
Guild Wars simply wasn't on the same scale as 2, 2 is a proper MMORPG after all, whether people realise that or not. It'll have a fully open world, world vs world PvP, and all the things that make a big MMORPG big. This isn't the sort of thing that ArenaNet wants to leave in the hands of biased fans, because past evidence has shown that this can only lead to catastrophe. I hope they realise this before they make that mistake and decide to set up their own forums, with their own professionally trained moderators. That will keep drama at a minimum and allow for moderation without bias.
Just imagine what would happen if the forums of many of the big MMORPGs were run by fans and had no objective moderation to speak of. In fact, Champions Online recently stepped up their moderation because they felt it was becoming something of a Wild West, and enforced some stricter rules against trolling and drama. I don't know whether many will be able to understand the problem, here, but drama and trolling reflects badly upon a community and game, what's worse is if the moderators themselves are in part or wholly responsible for some of that drama and trolling.
Without proper training, the moderators will become a source of drama, and trolling, and bias. This will reflect badly upon ArenaNet and their game, because the primary forum is supposed to reflect the community and the attitude of the game itself. If people decide that they want to stay away from the forums, then they might decide that they want to avoid the game, too. For this reason, leaving a forum to fans to run could be the worst decision they could ever make. Ever. Seriously. You need trained people handling this. Not want. Need.
I'm biased too and GW2Guru has a good community. Extremely knowledgable and incredibly active. But it also falls prey to the problems that commonly plague any other community such as 'uneven' (trying to be diplomatic) moderation.
But one thing that irks me, which I find this community is more prone to than others, is how readily some people get their hackles up when incorrect information is published somewhere about the game. In some cases, there would be a glowingly positive review that makes a few factual errors, but the reaction tends more toward outrage than celebration. I think that has a lot to do with some GW2 fans feeling a bit like underdogs in the MMO arena and start acting like the little guy carrying a BIG chip on his shoulder. It just becomes more noticeable on Guru because of the high fan concentration.
But anyway, like any other forum, GW2Guru has it's failings. But standing side to side with any other fan site or official forum, it still stands taller than the rest. I think the OP would be shooting himself in the foot if he let something so trivial interfere with his view of the game, principles or no.
By the way, there are a lot of awesome people on Guru too, and most are much more objective and fair-minded than the example I gave. The community has it's quirks, which is what makes it interesting to be part of.
At least those heavy-handed mods over that GW2guru manage clear up the trash on those forums and rather quickly.
Thank you for an example of unprofessional moderation. If a mod wants to close a thread, for whatever reason (it doesn't really matter), give a brief explanation as to why, then close it. What they shouldn't do is get involved in the thread by voicing their own opinion on the topic (basically launching a parting salvo into the fray) before shutting off the ability for anyone else to follow up.
Want to see an example of good moderation? Here ya go: CLOSED
See the difference? Mods shouldn't be stepping into the muck with everyone else. At Guru, it seems to happen frequently.
It's one of the problems with having unpaid volenteers moderate a fansite. The mods themselves are pretty much all fans of the game (but not fanboys most are carryovers from GWG and are a little burned by ANet) and have opinions on the topics. On the whole, I think they do a good job, not a perfect one, though.
I don't know how recently you've gone there but it's gone downhill. What I can say is that I used to lurk there but now I avoid it. From what I've seen... it's fallen prey to overzealous thread locking and silent post and thread deletion. There's an air of cowardice to this like they're afraid to confront the task of moderation directly and they're letting their personal opinions get in the way of the job and they don't want to be called on it, so it feels like they're spiralling out of control. They don't know how to moderate properly because they haven't been trained to do it right and that's why I think it could be disastrous if ArenaNet were to go ahead and use them as their official forum, because this fraying around the edges makes it look like things are ready to come undone and if that happens then it's going to reflect badly on ArenaNet.
So I'm hoping that ArenaNet will set up their own official forums, with trained people who're paid to be objective, act properly, and not cause drama. Essentially: Proper, objective moderation, with no overzealous locking or silent post deletions, and no opinions to get in the way of what they're supposed to be doing. I'm talking about GW2G here only as I haven't ever been to GW1G and I can't talk about how successful they are there... but the moderation effort over on GW2G is a shambles and it seems like the bigger they're becoming, the worse it's getting. Perhaps it has something to do with Curse taking over and perhaps not, I can't tell you for sure. But this is not ideal. You need the right people doing a job like this and they aren't the right people. Just lurk over there for a while and you'll see what I mean by that.
I don't see why they couldn't, as they do have some corporate resources to call on. Couldn't NCsoft help them out with that? In the case of Guild Wars 1, it didn't need a major forum because it was a co-op game more than a MMORPG. Things are different this time around. So I will continue to hope for a better forums, even if I hope in vain.
I don't see why they couldn't, as they do have some corporate resources to call on. Couldn't NCsoft help them out with that? In the case of Guild Wars 1, it didn't need a major forum because it was a co-op game more than a MMORPG. Things are different this time around. So I will continue to hope for a better forums, even if I hope in vain.
Its not because they can't, its because there is no point. There are already several fan sites that do the job just fine. If you don't like GW2guru then there are others that you can pick from.
I just want to say I can understand why some people want official forums. However, it has been my experience that official forums all but useless QQ. There are some good spots in those forums such as the class forums. But for the most part they are nothing but a whine fest. If anything they are a detriment to the community rather than encouraging it.
... it's fallen prey to overzealous thread locking and silent post and thread deletion.....
That's how guru has been in a nutshell since GW 1, but it's been getting worse. Say anything, even if it holds fact or relevance against ANET, cash shop, or previously GW1 controversial topics that people have'nt said 30 times is deleted without leaving a trace. Opinions that differ from a moderator's is not allowed. No one can see your post was censored and they do not show *Post deleted by mod for ___*, like normal forums show.
If someone already hasn't said, on the first GW site, there's a fansite roster with a list of "Elite" fansites on there. The community managers usually post on those ones, though most of the population died with GW1.
I would use incgamers' GW site. You can say what you want without censorship, and the ANET CM's still visit there too. Guru just was lucky they were at the top of the list. A lot of net thug, arrogant moderators there.
Long story short, GURU censors. If you said something you think was meaningful on a controversial topic and it was'nt Pro-Anet, go there a day after posting and look to see if your post is still there.
My experience with official forums has been the Champions Online forums, which was an amazing experience, with professional moderators; a nice community; barely any threadlocks; next to no drama. Really a great place. By contrast, lurking over at GW2G has shown a place that's increasingly hostile and filled with drama, all of which is poorly handled by the moderators who sometimes end up being a source of it themselves, and then dole out deletions and thread locks to deal with that.
That's why I'm interested in an official forums, because my experiences with them have been good, and my only experience with needing to check out a fan forum has been very, very bad. Bad like crossing the streams. Other than that I don't know what else I can add that would be informative to you about my opinion, at the end of the day I suppose it's all just anecdotal and it depends on which you've had good or bad experiences with in the past, right?
(I edited in the name of the person whom I was replying to. Sorry... I tend to forget to do that.)
My experience with official forums has been the Champions Online forums, which was an amazing experience, with professional moderators; a nice community; barely any threadlocks; next to no drama. Really a great place. By contrast, lurking over at GW2G has shown a place that's increasingly hostile and filled with drama, all of which is poorly handled by the moderators who sometimes end up being a source of it themselves, and then dole out deletions and thread locks to deal with that.
That's why I'm interested in an official forums, because my experiences with them have been good, and my only experience with needing to check out a fan forum has been very, very bad. Bad like crossing the streams. Other than that I don't know what else I can add that would be informative to you about my opinion, at the end of the day I suppose it's all just anecdotal and it depends on which you've had good or bad experiences with in the past, right?
(I edited in the name of the person whom I was replying to. Sorry... I tend to forget to do that.)
That's exactly what I was seeing and it bothered me... it's just not right, is it? On the Champions Online forums, they're really good about this and if someone does something that's really out of line, they're warned. It's only when they really step over the line that the post gets edited, but even when that happens, the name of the GM that edited it is provided. And you're permitted to raise support tickets if you feel you've been edited unfairly, they're very good about that as well. I've really enjoyed my experience there because the moderators have been fair and even handed.
What I saw on GW2G scared me away from wanting an account there. It's like you say... if someone pots something that goes against moderator bias, even if it's only an opinion with no flaming whatsoever, a very polite post with not a bad word in it, it'll just disappear. I've seen so many posts disappear on GW2G and never on the Champions Online forums. Really, Champions Online is all that I'm playing at the moment, and Guild Wars 2 is all that I'm interested in playing. So those are the only two places I've been looking for people to talk with about the respective games.
Thanks for the IncGamers recommendation! I'll really have to check them out. From the way you tell it it sounds like they're the better option. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this though because what I saw at GW2G was getting out of hand. i'm sure that people have likely brought it up there as well... but of course, any threads or posts dealing with that would've been silently deleted, so no one would've seen it.
That wouldn't be a fair comparison. What are the Aion forums like? I recall hearing tha tthe City of Heroes forums are a really nice place to be. You have to look at the forums of the company that would actually be providing the moderation, and in this case I believe that would be NCsoft. If they have a long-standing reptuation for good forums then that would very likely continue into Guild Wars 2 as well.
My experience with official forums has been the Champions Online forums, which was an amazing experience, with professional moderators; a nice community; barely any threadlocks; next to no drama. Really a great place. By contrast, lurking over at GW2G has shown a place that's increasingly hostile and filled with drama, all of which is poorly handled by the moderators who sometimes end up being a source of it themselves, and then dole out deletions and thread locks to deal with that.
Check out the WoW, TOR and Rift official forums.
I haven't been to the Champions Online forum. If what you say is true about it then it is the exception to the rule in my opinion. What I have found has been what romanator has mentioned in his example.
In those places for every thread that has legitimate constructive criticism you'll find 10 more that are full of useless qq and trolling. I remember a few times on the wow forums where there was blatant racism being spouted all over the forum for a weekend with no moderation at all.
Edit: To answer the post above, the Aion forums are consistent with the likes of wow, rift, etcetera. Lots of trash talking in them that's for sure.
I will say that the best forum I have been on was the Lotro forum. But I haven't been there since the game went Free to Play so I don't know how it is now.
Comments
... if this is true, then why is GW2Guru forum full of people bitching nonstop about every single possible aspect of the game?
They complain about pricing, about combat, about story, about the voice acting, about the skills, about crafting... just look at a list of threads, it's like a laundry list of complaints... seriously, the people complaining there make the most hardcore Star Wars or Sandbox fan complaining about GW2 seem like a GW2 shill. Partially because they tend to be better informed, so the complaints that do show up are more legitimate than 'Oh, GW2 is just nothing but a bunch of instances'
There are threads where people mention the wonders of SW:TOR or Tera, or whatever. Sure, the people there might be outnumbered by fans, but they're not silenced. Go look at WoW and how much they enjoy shutting down threads about Rifts.
Maybe you live in a crazy mirror world where your conspiracy theories are all true. :T I don't know how the GW forums used to be, but the GW2 forums certainly aren't like that. Not GW2Guru, anyway, can't speak for the others.
Guru is really the de facto "official" site. It has loads of information, an incredibly knowledgable (and sizable) group of users, and ArenaNet pays close attention to it. When false information starts getting spread around, you can count on a quick response from an ArenaNet employee to clear it up. If you want the latest news on the game, you can count on someone at Guru posting a link to it within minutes of it being published. And you'll get information from all over the world, not just what the big names in North America are saying.
Frankly, few "official" forums can hold a candle to what they're doing over at Guru for Guild Wars 2. My only beef with it is the sometimes petulant and unprofessional moderation. Again, very much like many other "official" forums out there.
Obviously I'm biased, but I find GW2Guru to have a much more enjoyable community then certain communities on certain official forums.
Wait, are you saying you don't live there?
You're one of THEM, aren't you!?!
Fansite forums tend to have better moderation.
No official forums = less people in one place and lower expenditure due to smaller workforce.
Fansite forums = people are more spread out between more forums and overall number of modders is higher. It's also free in most cases as well.
win/win for ANet
I'm biased too and GW2Guru has a good community. Extremely knowledgable and incredibly active. But it also falls prey to the problems that commonly plague any other community such as 'uneven' (trying to be diplomatic) moderation.
But one thing that irks me, which I find this community is more prone to than others, is how readily some people get their hackles up when incorrect information is published somewhere about the game. In some cases, there would be a glowingly positive review that makes a few factual errors, but the reaction tends more toward outrage than celebration. I think that has a lot to do with some GW2 fans feeling a bit like underdogs in the MMO arena and start acting like the little guy carrying a BIG chip on his shoulder. It just becomes more noticeable on Guru because of the high fan concentration.
But anyway, like any other forum, GW2Guru has it's failings. But standing side to side with any other fan site or official forum, it still stands taller than the rest. I think the OP would be shooting himself in the foot if he let something so trivial interfere with his view of the game, principles or no.
By the way, there are a lot of awesome people on Guru too, and most are much more objective and fair-minded than the example I gave. The community has it's quirks, which is what makes it interesting to be part of.
They have an official website but I imagine you know that.
At least those heavy-handed mods over that GW2guru manage clear up the trash on those forums and rather quickly.
Thank you for an example of unprofessional moderation. If a mod wants to close a thread, for whatever reason (it doesn't really matter), give a brief explanation as to why, then close it. What they shouldn't do is get involved in the thread by voicing their own opinion on the topic (basically launching a parting salvo into the fray) before shutting off the ability for anyone else to follow up.
Want to see an example of good moderation? Here ya go: CLOSED
See the difference? Mods shouldn't be stepping into the muck with everyone else. At Guru, it seems to happen frequently.
That's one of the bigger issues as well. These fan sites tend to attract elitists pricks for the lack of better word. Sure some people can be very helpful, but overall these fan-run forums are like gated communities, where outsiders are not welcome and are generally constantly put down for their ignorance. These elitist pricks think that everybody should go and read an entire wiki about the game before they come to the forums and ask a question. Not everybody has time or will to hunt around the internet for pieces of information that they may or may not find.
Using fan-run forums to communicate with your CUSTOMERS is simply a bad form, and nonprofessional... because, guess what, those fans are not professional and they are more concerned about their AD revenue than they are about serving the public. They cut and trim anything that would reflect bad on their site or that would decrease their advertisement revenue, even if the topic/issue is 100% valid. As long as it is overly negative it will be removed and users/posters punished.
Remember warhammeralliance.com? For those of you that don't, that was the unofficial-official forum for WAR, like GW2Guru.com. I was a moderator there pre-launch. I know what I'm talking about. We, moderators, were instructed to strike down any and all negative topics, regardless of their validity. I was disgusted with that, and then went on ahead and created BetaLeaks.com, which if you were following WAR and AoC prelauch you must have heard off. I took all the privileged information that I was getting as a moderator on WA website and shared it through betaleaks. Point being, that was very unprofessional of me, because I am not a professional, Shelby (owner of WA) is not a professional, and YET we had almost an 'official' status in the eyes of many WAR followers. It's really a clusterfuck and it boggles my mind that companies still practice this method in this day and age.
If Aventurine (Darkfall) and Starvault (Mortal Online) can afford to run official forums, there is no excuse for any other game developer not to. Official forums are the best political tool that guilds can ever hope for to get. Politics, drama, alliances, wars, friendships among guilds are often executed on official forums more so than they are in-game. Guru for example doesn't even have a forum section where guilds can advertise/discuss/recruit/fight/argue. The 'social group' thing is lame at best.
I would sooner accept that they do not use the forums period, at all, over accepting them making official statements on fan forums.
Playing: Darkfall Unholy Wars
Played: Darkfall, EVE, AoC, Ryzom, Ragnarok Online, GW2, PS2, Secret World, WOW, City Of Heroes/Villains, Champion Online.
I've noticed a few folks comparing GW2Guru's forums to the official forum's for games that are already in full release, and finding the former lacking. While there are fair criticisms to be had, this is not a fair way to make them.
Guru's forums are for a game that hasn't even had a beta announcement yet, let alone a release date. Is it any wonder that there are some features lacking that you might be accustomed to with other games? For instance, PvP and guild boards. Why have a forum to discuss PvP when there is actually nothing to discuss yet? Same for guilds. While some people might be considering putting together a guild even now, this far out, how many are serious and will actually be around come release time? Putting up a forum for them right now is just premature.
If you want a better idea of what GW2Guru's forums will look like come release time, you should check out the predecessor site for GW1. You'll find a lot of those "missing" features are present there. Likely, they'll make a reappearance on GW2Guru, when they become relevant.
As much as I love Guild Wars 2, I must agree with Drvanitus here, it's really bad form not to have an official forum, because with an official forum you have professional people who're paid to manage the community and be objective. Allowing a fan forum to be the main focus of a game as big as this opens the door to all sorts of bias, in regards to PvP, builds, what have you. It creates a 'the moderator is always ight' atmosphere, because without the training they'd require to handle all topics objectively, the amateur handling will solely result in bias.
I've seen this happen with so many fan forums in the past, and it's made the experience uncomfortable for any group who happen to disagree with a moderator on any topic, since a moderator will use their position of power to force their viewpoinit. This leads to more fan forums popping up, and an ever more fractured community, with people spreading out across the Internet, and information being locked up to small fan forums rather than being widely disseminated. This is a problem, yes, but it's one that's easily solved by having an official forum.
Guild Wars simply wasn't on the same scale as 2, 2 is a proper MMORPG after all, whether people realise that or not. It'll have a fully open world, world vs world PvP, and all the things that make a big MMORPG big. This isn't the sort of thing that ArenaNet wants to leave in the hands of biased fans, because past evidence has shown that this can only lead to catastrophe. I hope they realise this before they make that mistake and decide to set up their own forums, with their own professionally trained moderators. That will keep drama at a minimum and allow for moderation without bias.
Just imagine what would happen if the forums of many of the big MMORPGs were run by fans and had no objective moderation to speak of. In fact, Champions Online recently stepped up their moderation because they felt it was becoming something of a Wild West, and enforced some stricter rules against trolling and drama. I don't know whether many will be able to understand the problem, here, but drama and trolling reflects badly upon a community and game, what's worse is if the moderators themselves are in part or wholly responsible for some of that drama and trolling.
Without proper training, the moderators will become a source of drama, and trolling, and bias. This will reflect badly upon ArenaNet and their game, because the primary forum is supposed to reflect the community and the attitude of the game itself. If people decide that they want to stay away from the forums, then they might decide that they want to avoid the game, too. For this reason, leaving a forum to fans to run could be the worst decision they could ever make. Ever. Seriously. You need trained people handling this. Not want. Need.
So I hope ArenaNet realises that.
It's one of the problems with having unpaid volenteers moderate a fansite. The mods themselves are pretty much all fans of the game (but not fanboys most are carryovers from GWG and are a little burned by ANet) and have opinions on the topics. On the whole, I think they do a good job, not a perfect one, though.
Disagreement Heirarchy
I don't know how recently you've gone there but it's gone downhill. What I can say is that I used to lurk there but now I avoid it. From what I've seen... it's fallen prey to overzealous thread locking and silent post and thread deletion. There's an air of cowardice to this like they're afraid to confront the task of moderation directly and they're letting their personal opinions get in the way of the job and they don't want to be called on it, so it feels like they're spiralling out of control. They don't know how to moderate properly because they haven't been trained to do it right and that's why I think it could be disastrous if ArenaNet were to go ahead and use them as their official forum, because this fraying around the edges makes it look like things are ready to come undone and if that happens then it's going to reflect badly on ArenaNet.
So I'm hoping that ArenaNet will set up their own official forums, with trained people who're paid to be objective, act properly, and not cause drama. Essentially: Proper, objective moderation, with no overzealous locking or silent post deletions, and no opinions to get in the way of what they're supposed to be doing. I'm talking about GW2G here only as I haven't ever been to GW1G and I can't talk about how successful they are there... but the moderation effort over on GW2G is a shambles and it seems like the bigger they're becoming, the worse it's getting. Perhaps it has something to do with Curse taking over and perhaps not, I can't tell you for sure. But this is not ideal. You need the right people doing a job like this and they aren't the right people. Just lurk over there for a while and you'll see what I mean by that.
Don't get your hopes up.
I don't see why they couldn't, as they do have some corporate resources to call on. Couldn't NCsoft help them out with that? In the case of Guild Wars 1, it didn't need a major forum because it was a co-op game more than a MMORPG. Things are different this time around. So I will continue to hope for a better forums, even if I hope in vain.
Its not because they can't, its because there is no point. There are already several fan sites that do the job just fine. If you don't like GW2guru then there are others that you can pick from.
Maybe. When the beta is active then we will know for sure. There certainly won't be anything before that though.
I just want to say I can understand why some people want official forums. However, it has been my experience that official forums all but useless QQ. There are some good spots in those forums such as the class forums. But for the most part they are nothing but a whine fest. If anything they are a detriment to the community rather than encouraging it.
That's how guru has been in a nutshell since GW 1, but it's been getting worse. Say anything, even if it holds fact or relevance against ANET, cash shop, or previously GW1 controversial topics that people have'nt said 30 times is deleted without leaving a trace. Opinions that differ from a moderator's is not allowed. No one can see your post was censored and they do not show *Post deleted by mod for ___*, like normal forums show.
If someone already hasn't said, on the first GW site, there's a fansite roster with a list of "Elite" fansites on there. The community managers usually post on those ones, though most of the population died with GW1.
I would use incgamers' GW site. You can say what you want without censorship, and the ANET CM's still visit there too. Guru just was lucky they were at the top of the list. A lot of net thug, arrogant moderators there.
Long story short, GURU censors. If you said something you think was meaningful on a controversial topic and it was'nt Pro-Anet, go there a day after posting and look to see if your post is still there.
Spread the word, down with communist GURU.
@arenasb
My experience with official forums has been the Champions Online forums, which was an amazing experience, with professional moderators; a nice community; barely any threadlocks; next to no drama. Really a great place. By contrast, lurking over at GW2G has shown a place that's increasingly hostile and filled with drama, all of which is poorly handled by the moderators who sometimes end up being a source of it themselves, and then dole out deletions and thread locks to deal with that.
That's why I'm interested in an official forums, because my experiences with them have been good, and my only experience with needing to check out a fan forum has been very, very bad. Bad like crossing the streams. Other than that I don't know what else I can add that would be informative to you about my opinion, at the end of the day I suppose it's all just anecdotal and it depends on which you've had good or bad experiences with in the past, right?
(I edited in the name of the person whom I was replying to. Sorry... I tend to forget to do that.)
Check out the WoW, TOR and Rift official forums.
@end_break_f
That's exactly what I was seeing and it bothered me... it's just not right, is it? On the Champions Online forums, they're really good about this and if someone does something that's really out of line, they're warned. It's only when they really step over the line that the post gets edited, but even when that happens, the name of the GM that edited it is provided. And you're permitted to raise support tickets if you feel you've been edited unfairly, they're very good about that as well. I've really enjoyed my experience there because the moderators have been fair and even handed.
What I saw on GW2G scared me away from wanting an account there. It's like you say... if someone pots something that goes against moderator bias, even if it's only an opinion with no flaming whatsoever, a very polite post with not a bad word in it, it'll just disappear. I've seen so many posts disappear on GW2G and never on the Champions Online forums. Really, Champions Online is all that I'm playing at the moment, and Guild Wars 2 is all that I'm interested in playing. So those are the only two places I've been looking for people to talk with about the respective games.
Thanks for the IncGamers recommendation! I'll really have to check them out. From the way you tell it it sounds like they're the better option. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this though because what I saw at GW2G was getting out of hand. i'm sure that people have likely brought it up there as well... but of course, any threads or posts dealing with that would've been silently deleted, so no one would've seen it.
@romanator0
That wouldn't be a fair comparison. What are the Aion forums like? I recall hearing tha tthe City of Heroes forums are a really nice place to be. You have to look at the forums of the company that would actually be providing the moderation, and in this case I believe that would be NCsoft. If they have a long-standing reptuation for good forums then that would very likely continue into Guild Wars 2 as well.
(I've edited in a reply to romanator0.)
I haven't been to the Champions Online forum. If what you say is true about it then it is the exception to the rule in my opinion. What I have found has been what romanator has mentioned in his example.
In those places for every thread that has legitimate constructive criticism you'll find 10 more that are full of useless qq and trolling. I remember a few times on the wow forums where there was blatant racism being spouted all over the forum for a weekend with no moderation at all.
Edit: To answer the post above, the Aion forums are consistent with the likes of wow, rift, etcetera. Lots of trash talking in them that's for sure.
I will say that the best forum I have been on was the Lotro forum. But I haven't been there since the game went Free to Play so I don't know how it is now.