... it's fallen prey to overzealous thread locking and silent post and thread deletion.....
That's how guru has been in a nutshell since GW 1, but it's been getting worse. Say anything, even if it holds fact or relevance against ANET, cash shop, or previously GW1 controversial topics that people have'nt said 30 times is deleted without leaving a trace. Opinions that differ from a moderator's is not allowed. No one can see your post was censored and they do not show *Post deleted by mod for ___*, like normal forums show.
If someone already hasn't said, on the first GW site, there's a fansite roster with a list of "Elite" fansites on there. The community managers usually post on those ones, though most of the population died with GW1.
I would use incgamers' GW site. You can say what you want without censorship, and the ANET CM's still visit there too. Guru just was lucky they were at the top of the list. A lot of net thug, arrogant moderators there.
Long story short, GURU censors. If you said something you think was meaningful on a controversial topic and it was'nt Pro-Anet, go there a day after posting and look to see if your post is still there.
Spread the word, down with communist GURU.
Normal forums do NOT show *post deleted by mod for [insert reason]*. For example, MMORPG doesn't. I've had a few posts deleted here and there (no arguments against them, I was being an ass in one and badmouthing one of their articles in another) and there is no evidence left over. Hell, sometimes I run across posts that are quoting something that no longer exists. This is how it is in most cases. Really, there are plenty of posts that worry about ArenaNet, cash shops, and a few on GW (which really doesn't have too much weight in GW2) and some of the mods in the past have openly stated worries about ArenaNet and GW2 (look at a post I linked above, that was fenix, a GW2G moderator, saying GW2 isn't going to innovate shit) .
Really, you're talking out of your ass. Find me some proof that the mods censor opinions contrary to their own instead of making such claims. And remember, its not always WHAT you say but HOW you say it.
And do any of you think an official forum would be better? There are horror stories out there of official forum moderation going overboard. Recently BioWare was in the headlines on that front. You usually can't talk bad about them or their product. Hell, there are a few stories of Gaile Gray going a little batshit from time to time out there. An official forum just means that they control the content, nothing more, nothing less.
And another note, discussion of moderator activity usually isn't allowed, regardless of where you are. Really, try it. Most places that even try to put on an air of professionalism won't allow it. Try discussing MMORPG mod actions here. It won't end well.
... it's fallen prey to overzealous thread locking and silent post and thread deletion.....
That's how guru has been in a nutshell since GW 1, but it's been getting worse. Say anything, even if it holds fact or relevance against ANET, cash shop, or previously GW1 controversial topics that people have'nt said 30 times is deleted without leaving a trace. Opinions that differ from a moderator's is not allowed. No one can see your post was censored and they do not show *Post deleted by mod for ___*, like normal forums show.
If someone already hasn't said, on the first GW site, there's a fansite roster with a list of "Elite" fansites on there. The community managers usually post on those ones, though most of the population died with GW1.
I would use incgamers' GW site. You can say what you want without censorship, and the ANET CM's still visit there too. Guru just was lucky they were at the top of the list. A lot of net thug, arrogant moderators there.
Long story short, GURU censors. If you said something you think was meaningful on a controversial topic and it was'nt Pro-Anet, go there a day after posting and look to see if your post is still there.
Spread the word, down with communist GURU.
Normal forums do NOT show *post deleted by mod for [insert reason]*. For example, MMORPG doesn't. I've had a few posts deleted here and there (no arguments against them, I was being an ass in one and badmouthing one of their articles in another) and there is no evidence left over. Hell, sometimes I run across posts that are quoting something that no longer exists. This is how it is in most cases. Really, there are plenty of posts that worry about ArenaNet, cash shops, and a few on GW (which really doesn't have too much weight in GW2) and some of the mods in the past have openly stated worries about ArenaNet and GW2 (look at a post I linked above, that was fenix, a GW2G moderator, saying GW2 isn't going to innovate shit) .
Really, you're talking out of your ass. Find me some proof that the mods censor opinions contrary to their own instead of making such claims. And remember, its not always WHAT you say but HOW you say it.
And do any of you think an official forum would be better? There are horror stories out there of official forum moderation going overboard. Recently BioWare was in the headlines on that front. You usually can't talk bad about them or their product. Hell, there are a few stories of Gaile Gray going a little batshit from time to time out there. An official forum just means that they control the content, nothing more, nothing less.
I personally don't think an official forum would be better, but if you honestly think that the GW2Guru mods don't act with bias and petulance, you're just not paying attention. I've personally written complaints to mods due to some of their more asinine behaviour. Once, for actually pouring gasoline on a simmering flamewar by resorting to personal insults and another time for joining the fray with their own opinion on a subject, then closing the thread in the very same post. And that's not even the same instance as the example I used in my earlier post above. I swear, the mods there act like they're 13 year old children with delusions of grandeur.
The mysteriously deleted posts is another irk for me since I've had mine simply disappear before without a note, a warning or an explanation. Nothing. Just poof. And I've always been on my best behaviour there, not like here where I actually earn the rare deletion and the occasional smack upside the head. But at least I know when it happens and why.
It's simple, the people they have in charge of moderation over at Guru are as bad as the 'troublemakers' they're supposed to be policing. Luckily, the forum is also home to some of the nicest and most intelligent people I've met online. Unfortunately, they're not the ones holding the banhammers.
Normal forums do NOT show *post deleted by mod for [insert reason]*.
.....Really, you're talking out of your ass. Find me some proof that the mods censor opinions contrary to their own instead of making such claims. And remember, its not always WHAT you say but HOW you say it....
..... And another note, discussion of moderator activity usually isn't allowed, regardless of where you are. Really, try it. Most places that even try to put on an air of professionalism won't allow it. Try discussing MMORPG mod actions here. It won't end well.
What I mean when I say *Post deleted blahblah* is that the moderator writes why the whole thing was erased, a la Tera forums or it just outright says *Post deleted by moderator or admin* like in Gamefaqs and Runescape. It just shows that the post was moderated in some way. Not just having it disappear into nothingness so no one can see the secret police have been at work at silencing dissent.
I can't find you any proof because as people have stated in this thread, your posts are *POOF* gone and deleted at Guru. You can either watch the forums and see posts disappear or make a post on a hot topic and watch it disappear if you hit a home run. You don't have to troll, swear or act like a jerk to get a post deleted at GW guru.
At a professional forum, you're supposed to be able to discuss it via form or pm. In "Theory" at Guru you can send a mail. Just don't expect a response. I've never gotten one.
Normal forums do NOT show *post deleted by mod for [insert reason]*.
.....Really, you're talking out of your ass. Find me some proof that the mods censor opinions contrary to their own instead of making such claims. And remember, its not always WHAT you say but HOW you say it....
..... And another note, discussion of moderator activity usually isn't allowed, regardless of where you are. Really, try it. Most places that even try to put on an air of professionalism won't allow it. Try discussing MMORPG mod actions here. It won't end well.
What I mean when I say *Post deleted blahblah* is that the moderator writes why the whole thing was erased, a la Tera forums or it just outright says *Post deleted by moderator or admin* like in Gamefaqs and Runescape. It just shows that the post was moderated in some way. Not just having it disappear into nothingness so no one can see the secret police have been at work at silencing dissent.
I can't find you any proof because as people have stated in this thread, your posts are *POOF* gone and deleted at Guru. You can either watch the forums and see posts disappear or make a post on a hot topic and watch it disappear if you hit a home run. You don't have to troll, swear or act like a jerk to get a post deleted at GW guru.
At a professional forum, you're supposed to be able to discuss it via form or pm. In "Theory" at Guru you can send a mail. Just don't expect a response. I've never gotten one.
It's not the moderators duty in any way to notify you of post edits or deletion. If you actually read the forum rules:
"We reserve the right to edit posts for format, content, or clarity, without notice. However, we will not intentionally change the substance of what anyone says, and will inform you if we make any substantial changes. Posting meaningless deranged psychobabble with no substantial merit or posts that do not contribute to the thread discussion will more than likely be deleted without notice."
Most chances people actually know what they have done wrong for posts to be deleted, if you can't get your head around it then send a PM. Not that hard really, if you just look at the moderators list at the bottom of the forum you can send a PM to any of them - they all should see a reason to why the post was deleted.
You may argue "bias opinion" blah blah blah, but it's true. It's could be very time consuming, and it isn't needed. Most users can wrap their head around why their post went "poof". Anyways if you don't like it, go somewhere else.
Normal forums do NOT show *post deleted by mod for [insert reason]*.
.....Really, you're talking out of your ass. Find me some proof that the mods censor opinions contrary to their own instead of making such claims. And remember, its not always WHAT you say but HOW you say it....
..... And another note, discussion of moderator activity usually isn't allowed, regardless of where you are. Really, try it. Most places that even try to put on an air of professionalism won't allow it. Try discussing MMORPG mod actions here. It won't end well.
What I mean when I say *Post deleted blahblah* is that the moderator writes why the whole thing was erased, a la Tera forums or it just outright says *Post deleted by moderator or admin* like in Gamefaqs and Runescape. It just shows that the post was moderated in some way. Not just having it disappear into nothingness so no one can see the secret police have been at work at silencing dissent.
I can't find you any proof because as people have stated in this thread, your posts are *POOF* gone and deleted at Guru. You can either watch the forums and see posts disappear or make a post on a hot topic and watch it disappear if you hit a home run. You don't have to troll, swear or act like a jerk to get a post deleted at GW guru.
At a professional forum, you're supposed to be able to discuss it via form or pm. In "Theory" at Guru you can send a mail. Just don't expect a response. I've never gotten one.
It's not the moderators duty in any way to notify you of post edits or deletion. If you actually read the forum rules:
"We reserve the right to edit posts for format, content, or clarity, without notice. However, we will not intentionally change the substance of what anyone says, and will inform you if we make any substantial changes. Posting meaningless deranged psychobabble with no substantial merit or posts that do not contribute to the thread discussion will more than likely be deleted without notice."
Most chances people actually know what they have done wrong for posts to be deleted, if you can't get your head around it then send a PM. Not that hard really, if you just look at the moderators list at the bottom of the forum you can send a PM to any of them - they all should see a reason to why the post was deleted.
You may argue "bias opinion" blah blah blah, but it's true. It's could be very time consuming, and it isn't needed. Most users can wrap their head around why their post went "poof". Anyways if you don't like it, go somewhere else.
Fair enough. But I've never had a post of mine just disappear into the ether in this forum. Those that have gone bye-bye have been accompanied by a mostly deserved warning and explanation. But hey, if they don't have time over at Guru to provide a proper follow up for their actions, fine. But that doesn't excuse them getting involved in mudslinging and flaming with the rest of us kids. They expected to be treated with a higher standard by the rest of community, then they have an obligation to live up to that standard. Frequently, they fail to do so.
Limited resources is an excuse that can only be carried so far. The amount of time and money available to devote to moderation simply can't excuse unprofessional conduct since frankly, that kind of behaviour is free.
I accept that some mods do have a biased opinion and are sometimes incapable of divorcing their decisions from it. However, they've got no call to go spreading that opinion around to others, getting their say, then closing out the thread so that their "opinion" is the last to be voiced.
I can put up with vanishing posts and heavy-handed moderation. What I can't abide is using your authority on a forum to ensure you get the last word on a topic. And I'm not talking about deciding whether a thread continues to have merit, but about voicing who you think is right and wrong in an argument, then slamming your gavel down and clearing the court room. Either they are impartial arbiters of a thread's validity, or they are tin-pot dictators with an axe to grind. Too frequently at Guru, it's the latter.
Fair enough. But I've never had a post of mine just disappear into the ether in this forum. Those that have gone bye-bye have been accompanied by a mostly deserved warning and explanation. But hey, if they don't have time over at Guru to provide a proper follow up for their actions, fine. But that doesn't excuse them getting involved in mudslinging and flaming with the rest of us kids. They expected to be treated with a higher standard by the rest of community, then they have an obligation to live up to that standard. Frequently, they fail to do so.
Limited resources is an excuse that can only be carried so far. The amount of time and money available to devote to moderation simply can't excuse unprofessional conduct since frankly, that kind of behaviour is free.
I accept that some mods do have a biased opinion and are sometimes incapable of divorcing their decisions from it. However, they've got no call to go spreading that opinion around to others, getting their say, then closing out the thread so that their "opinion" is the last to be voiced.
I can put up with vanishing posts and heavy-handed moderation. What I can't abide is using your authority on a forum to ensure you get the last word on a topic. And I'm not talking about deciding whether a thread continues to have merit, but about voicing who you think is right and wrong in an argument, then slamming your gavel down and clearing the court room. Either they are impartial arbiters of a thread's validity, or they are tin-pot dictators with an axe to grind. Too frequently at Guru, it's the latter.
Moderators don't get paid, they do it out of choice. Yes, they have opinions but it is heavily discouraged to do as you put it "use their opinion to close a thread".
Guru works on a hierarchical system, going admins > super moderators > moderators to put it very blandly. If you every see this occuring, just notify the smod/admin of that forum. Since moderators do have a soul, and arent just robots, this does sometimes happen.
My experience with the gw2guru forums hasn't been the best so far. I have been lurking for months there and posting on and off and what I have seen is people getting banned for no reason at all, sometimes I might even search their username and find their latest posts and what I see is they got into some kind of debate and then instantly get ban-hammered so I'd say the mods there are pretty ill-tempered or at least this is what I have experienced. I'd say official forums would be better despite the troll threads that might arise, you just can't get away with fansite forums.
Fair enough. But I've never had a post of mine just disappear into the ether in this forum. Those that have gone bye-bye have been accompanied by a mostly deserved warning and explanation. But hey, if they don't have time over at Guru to provide a proper follow up for their actions, fine. But that doesn't excuse them getting involved in mudslinging and flaming with the rest of us kids. They expected to be treated with a higher standard by the rest of community, then they have an obligation to live up to that standard. Frequently, they fail to do so.
Limited resources is an excuse that can only be carried so far. The amount of time and money available to devote to moderation simply can't excuse unprofessional conduct since frankly, that kind of behaviour is free.
I accept that some mods do have a biased opinion and are sometimes incapable of divorcing their decisions from it. However, they've got no call to go spreading that opinion around to others, getting their say, then closing out the thread so that their "opinion" is the last to be voiced.
I can put up with vanishing posts and heavy-handed moderation. What I can't abide is using your authority on a forum to ensure you get the last word on a topic. And I'm not talking about deciding whether a thread continues to have merit, but about voicing who you think is right and wrong in an argument, then slamming your gavel down and clearing the court room. Either they are impartial arbiters of a thread's validity, or they are tin-pot dictators with an axe to grind. Too frequently at Guru, it's the latter.
Moderators don't get paid, they do it out of choice. Yes, they have opinions but it is heavily discouraged to do as you put it "use their opinion to close a thread".
Guru works on a hierarchical system, going admins > super moderators > moderators to put it very blandly. If you every see this occuring, just notify the smod/admin of that forum. Since moderators do have a soul, and arent just robots, this does sometimes happen.
I actually have notified an admin about this kind of behaviour -- the first time it happened. And to their credit, they were very courteous and it was addressed (to my knowledge) quickly. But that hasn't put a stop to it and in fact, the problem has grown much worse over the past months. Now it's true that I can complain everytime I see something that I feel is being handled poorly, but frankly, I don't like being in a position to police the police. And really, I shouldn't have to. To me, the problems are self-evident and it shouldn't require constant prodding from l'il ol' me to effect change.
I understand that the mods are unpaid and they are doing the service on a purely volunteer basis, but it doesn't excuse the job being done poorly. The admins should at the very least, review these volunteers to ensure that they are adhering to some basic guidelines that any forum moderator should be in line with. And if they find that some of them can't keep to the high standards expected of them, they should be dismissed with a sincere 'thank you' for the good work (there is the good as well as the bad) they've done, then find someone else.
Anyway, in the scope of the thread, there's nothing I'm saying here that can't really be applied to an offcial site as well. Only their people will be getting paid, so there's even less excuse for poor behaviour. Which certainly doesn't stop it. What Guru has going for it though is that it's the tightest concentration of GW2 knowledge on the planet outside of ArenaNet and most of the forum users are great to interact with. You just got to learn to dodge (or ignore) the occasional hissy fit by the mods.
My experience with the gw2guru forums hasn't been the best so far. I have been lurking for months there and posting on and off and what I have seen is people getting banned for no reason at all, sometimes I might even search their username and find their latest posts and what I see is they got into some kind of debate and then instantly get ban-hammered so I'd say the mods there are pretty ill-tempered or at least this is what I have experienced. I'd say official forums would be better despite the troll threads that might arise, you just can't get away with fansite forums.
Why keep around posts that get people banned? They would have to contain some sort of objectionable material, so why keep that around for people to see, respond to, and keep the cycle going. Hell, I've seen someone reply to a post 2 years old before on a forum to correct and insult that person. How do you expect flamebait to go over?
And Unlight, I've had posts dissapear into the ether here with no warning or PM as to why. But I know why. It got deleted because of a rather tonge in cheek comment about one of the articles on GW2 that they posted. But I've also recieved a PM once when I did attack. It's all about the severity and nature of the offense that dictates the response. I would go into more detail the exact nature of my post that got removed here, but hey, that would be a bit inpolite.
Are the guru2 mods unprofessional? Sometimes. Are some of em ornery asshats? Golly gee you betchya, Unlucky Slayer is a great example. But their thread closures are valid and bans justified. They may not close the right way, but those threads tend to deserve the closure.
My experience with the gw2guru forums hasn't been the best so far. I have been lurking for months there and posting on and off and what I have seen is people getting banned for no reason at all, sometimes I might even search their username and find their latest posts and what I see is they got into some kind of debate and then instantly get ban-hammered so I'd say the mods there are pretty ill-tempered or at least this is what I have experienced. I'd say official forums would be better despite the troll threads that might arise, you just can't get away with fansite forums.
Why keep around posts that get people banned? They would have to contain some sort of objectionable material, so why keep that around for people to see, respond to, and keep the cycle going. Hell, I've seen someone reply to a post 2 years old before on a forum to correct and insult that person. How do you expect flamebait to go over?
And Unlight, I've had posts dissapear into the ether here with no warning or PM as to why. But I know why. It got deleted because of a rather tonge in cheek comment about one of the articles on GW2 that they posted. But I've also recieved a PM once when I did attack. It's all about the severity and nature of the offense that dictates the response. I would go into more detail the exact nature of my post that got removed here, but hey, that would be a bit inpolite.
Are the guru2 mods unprofessional? Sometimes. Are some of em ornery asshats? Golly gee you betchya, Unlucky Slayer is a great example. But their thread closures are valid and bans justified. They may not close the right way, but those threads tend to deserve the closure.
The posts were not deleted and were nothing of objectionable or flame posts. They were simply things the mods probably disagreed with. Next thing you see is the person getting banned.
Keep in mind that I was scared off from Guru before I even got into it because I watched two threads where exactly what was described happened: There was an argument, and moderators jumped into this argument with their own opinions, forgetting that they were using moderation accounts and that this might be intimidating, they started picking out certain people and being quite nasty about it, and following that, posts started mysteriously disappearing. This happened in two threads that I was actively reading at the time. After that, I went on to see about 10 more threads overzealously locked (I don't know whether there was a disagreement there or whether they were just being lock-happy), and I thought to myself... you know, this does not seem like a nice place, so I'm going to avoid it, yeah?
And no one has to take my word for this, as has also been said you can just go and lurk or even dare posting yourself, if you happen to end up unlucky enough to be in a debate where a moderator is throwing around his or her weight, then there will be deletions, and you'll likely be deleted. What irks me about this is that they do this to make it look like the opinion of the moderators is the sole, prevailing opinion and this really bugs me, I mean, it should bug you, too. What this says is that even if a majority disagrees with the moderation then what will happen is that the dissenting posts will disappear like so much sand in the wind, never to be seen again. It'll look like the moderators are amazing people whose opinions are never wrong - whilst really they shouldn't be getting into these debates in the first place.
This was the only forum I'd ever seen where the moderators themselves were getting involved with this sort of behaviour, and I'm not talking about the users here but the moderators themselves, because I've never in all my time on the Internet seen a more pooorly handled system of moderation. Most forums I've been on DO tell you when they've had to edit a post, they give the name of the moderator responsible, they say why, and then you know where you stepped out of line. GameFAQs does this and you can hop on over to their forums and verify this for yourself, but this isn't my only issue either, one other thing that I rarely ever see iis moderators getting involved in debates and sicussions using their actual moderation accounts to do so.
In other communities, I've actually known people who've used non-moderation accounts to discuss things with people, and then when they handle moderation they use another account, if they don't feel they can do so objectively then they ask someone else to have a look instead of acting right away, and that's the best system, isn't it? In fact, I was a moderator for that community and this is why I know a thing or two about good moderation, and I can also know bad moderation when I see it, but it goes deeper than that on Guru and there I can smell out and out corruption, they're not even hiding that they merrily abuse their power. And is that what we want for Guild Wars 2, is that really what we want, is this the forum we want represneting the game?
The problem is is that if they're corrupt and abusing their powers like that then ArenaNet can never really get a good idea of how people really feel about things, and who knows what other shenanigans they're up to, they could be modifying polls or doing god knows what else in order to make their opinions the most dominant ones. I was put off that site after a week of lurking because I could see how freely they abused their powers, and I'm sorry but I just don't like that, they should know better and they should behave better, being such a major site they have to behave better than that, but they don't. This is why I want an official forum and if you think about it it makes sense, it really does, because the moderators on an official forum would not be allowed to push their own opinions and modify the entire forum to make it look like their opinions are the most widely held ones. That couldn't happen. And if it did, then the people responsible would be quickly ousted.
But as I see it, the corruption goes all the way up the chain in Guru, it must do because otherwise they'd do something to get that corruption under control, to do more to keep their moderators in line. As it is, you can't really trust any information there in regards to what people like or dislike, because therre's information shaping going on. Their actions are literally training the more long term members not to question them on various topics and we can even see that in this thread, one person said that it's a good idea to avoid mod hissy fits, but that's exactly the problem, because when a mod has a hissy fit they go around deleting posts that disagree with their viewpoint. So all debates always come out in the favour of the moderators responsible. No flaming here, no trolling, just simple manipulation, and the use of power to manipulate the information of an entire community. How can that possibly be right?
On the upside, IncGamers does look a lot better from my cursory glance around those forums. There are a few familiar names there from Guru, but their attitude seems very much toned down from the unashamed egomania that I've witnessed on Guru. It seems that someone in the IncGamer chain has put their foot down and said that that sort of nonsense won't be allowed there, so it does look like a better place for it. I still worry that with those names present that it would be an untrustworthy place, but I haven't seen any reason to doubt the forums thus far.
I concur with Dream_Chaser on this. What Guru has been known to do with their moderation activities is nothing less than stifling free speech.
Now, as some of you know by now from other posts on the topic of the Guru forums, I have a bias, but I have never said why before; but I will now.
Way back in the early days of GW, Guru hosted a tournament series. Being the designated representative for a whole alliance worth of GvG guilds, I was given Guest Moderator status in order to help coordinate the guilds being entered into the tournament. I, and several other guest mods, were working under a SuperMod by the handle 8ball.
The tournament series was supposed to be divided up into skill tiers. Now having worked with many guilds, we (the guest mods) were familiar with a lot of the players that were registering and tried to place the teams into the appropriate tier. But then something fishy happened people with brand new Guru accounts (and player names that were unknown to all of the guest mods) started appearing on teams for unheard of guilds. So we brought it up with 8ball, with suspicions that these could possibly be smurf guilds. We were told to let it play out, and it would be looked into during qualifier play. Only then qualifier play was dropped, and these smurfs (obvious once then matches began) walked away with the prizes for the lower divisions than the should have competed against. Again, 8ball ignored many complaints from the g. mods and from player that were beaten by the smurfs. We went to an Admin with the issue, and despite overwhelming evidence of corruption, the admin sided with the supermod. Consequently, all of the guest mod accounts were banned citing harassment/defamation of a SuperMod.
My account, which formerly had achieved Power Buyer status on Guru Auction, was among those banned.
So thats my story of the corruption that plagues Guru. Thats why I hope beyond all things that Anet will eventually see the demand for an Official Forum.
Keep in mind that I was scared off from Guru before I even got into it because I watched two threads where exactly what was described happened: There was an argument, and moderators jumped into this argument with their own opinions, forgetting that they were using moderation accounts and that this might be intimidating, they started picking out certain people and being quite nasty about it, and following that, posts started mysteriously disappearing. This happened in two threads that I was actively reading at the time. After that, I went on to see about 10 more threads overzealously locked (I don't know whether there was a disagreement there or whether they were just being lock-happy), and I thought to myself... you know, this does not seem like a nice place, so I'm going to avoid it, yeah?
And no one has to take my word for this, as has also been said you can just go and lurk or even dare posting yourself, if you happen to end up unlucky enough to be in a debate where a moderator is throwing around his or her weight, then there will be deletions, and you'll likely be deleted. What irks me about this is that they do this to make it look like the opinion of the moderators is the sole, prevailing opinion and this really bugs me, I mean, it should bug you, too. What this says is that even if a majority disagrees with the moderation then what will happen is that the dissenting posts will disappear like so much sand in the wind, never to be seen again. It'll look like the moderators are amazing people whose opinions are never wrong - whilst really they shouldn't be getting into these debates in the first place.
This was the only forum I'd ever seen where the moderators themselves were getting involved with this sort of behaviour, and I'm not talking about the users here but the moderators themselves, because I've never in all my time on the Internet seen a more pooorly handled system of moderation. Most forums I've been on DO tell you when they've had to edit a post, they give the name of the moderator responsible, they say why, and then you know where you stepped out of line. GameFAQs does this and you can hop on over to their forums and verify this for yourself, but this isn't my only issue either, one other thing that I rarely ever see iis moderators getting involved in debates and sicussions using their actual moderation accounts to do so.
In other communities, I've actually known people who've used non-moderation accounts to discuss things with people, and then when they handle moderation they use another account, if they don't feel they can do so objectively then they ask someone else to have a look instead of acting right away, and that's the best system, isn't it? In fact, I was a moderator for that community and this is why I know a thing or two about good moderation, and I can also know bad moderation when I see it, but it goes deeper than that on Guru and there I can smell out and out corruption, they're not even hiding that they merrily abuse their power. And is that what we want for Guild Wars 2, is that really what we want, is this the forum we want represneting the game?
The problem is is that if they're corrupt and abusing their powers like that then ArenaNet can never really get a good idea of how people really feel about things, and who knows what other shenanigans they're up to, they could be modifying polls or doing god knows what else in order to make their opinions the most dominant ones. I was put off that site after a week of lurking because I could see how freely they abused their powers, and I'm sorry but I just don't like that, they should know better and they should behave better, being such a major site they have to behave better than that, but they don't. This is why I want an official forum and if you think about it it makes sense, it really does, because the moderators on an official forum would not be allowed to push their own opinions and modify the entire forum to make it look like their opinions are the most widely held ones. That couldn't happen. And if it did, then the people responsible would be quickly ousted.
But as I see it, the corruption goes all the way up the chain in Guru, it must do because otherwise they'd do something to get that corruption under control, to do more to keep their moderators in line. As it is, you can't really trust any information there in regards to what people like or dislike, because therre's information shaping going on. Their actions are literally training the more long term members not to question them on various topics and we can even see that in this thread, one person said that it's a good idea to avoid mod hissy fits, but that's exactly the problem, because when a mod has a hissy fit they go around deleting posts that disagree with their viewpoint. So all debates always come out in the favour of the moderators responsible. No flaming here, no trolling, just simple manipulation, and the use of power to manipulate the information of an entire community. How can that possibly be right?
On the upside, IncGamers does look a lot better from my cursory glance around those forums. There are a few familiar names there from Guru, but their attitude seems very much toned down from the unashamed egomania that I've witnessed on Guru. It seems that someone in the IncGamer chain has put their foot down and said that that sort of nonsense won't be allowed there, so it does look like a better place for it. I still worry that with those names present that it would be an untrustworthy place, but I haven't seen any reason to doubt the forums thus far.
I don't think I've ever said so much conerntrated BS in one post on the internet. It looks like you're comparing an internet fan site about a game to real world politics, corruption? Really? It seems you're making a lot of hollow arguements here without any proof, makes you very unreliable. I think you're taking this far to seriously, it's the internet.
Sure Arenanet read the forums, but polls are very unreliable in the first place - not everybody can make one. Most of them arent clear anyways "What's your favourite race?" - Like Arenanet cares.
Moderators never do anything such as manipulation, most of the time when posts are edited it to remove flame/bad language. This happends because not everybody on the internet is over 14. GW1 was a 12+ game, so some 12 year olds might want to join a forum, they don't want to see bad language at such a young age, heck some 20 year old might not want to see some topics being discussed.
Flame is removed to keep guru a healthy environment, most people are turned off by it. They don't want to voice their opinions on such matters when they're just going to get insulted for simple mistakes or somebody disagreeing with them. Flame in all cases is NOT GOOD.
"I've never in all my time on the Internet seen a more pooorly handled system of moderation." You obviousy havent been around on the internet for long. Have you seen the state of AionSource? It's bloody awful, 7 posts into a thread and people are off topic.
therez0
I guess that event happened over 4-5 years ago, you're arguement is very flawed.
I'm very sorry to hear that people have had a bad experience with the guru boards. I'd like to point out that they've undergone a relatively recent change in management and we are determined to ensure that all the staff are of the highest quality.
As others have mentioned, if someone has done something bad enough to get banned then it is extremely unlikely that the thing they did would still be there for all to read. That wouldn't really be doing our jobs. Sometimes people get banned for things that are not immediately obvious to users, such as replying to a warning with a "screw you, I'll do what I want" or other non public harassment of members or staff. Additionally, people will sometimes get 24 hour timeouts for simply not listening to warnings so if someone appears banned that doesn't mean they've been perm banned!
Although we do not discuss specific moderation decisions publically, we are more than happy to discuss things privately with the users involved so if you feel you have been mistreated, please contact an admin or an smod such as myself. If you're concerned about the treatment of others but you don't know the full story, we may be able to alay your concerns somewhat although it is not our policy to discuss other people's diciplinary proceedings with third parties in detail.
Note: I work for the guildwars2guru forums as an SMod, but I have no involvement with the guild wars 1 fansite, so I will unfortunately be unable to personally help you with anything relating to that forum.
My experience with the gw2guru forums hasn't been the best so far. I have been lurking for months there and posting on and off and what I have seen is people getting banned for no reason at all, sometimes I might even search their username and find their latest posts and what I see is they got into some kind of debate and then instantly get ban-hammered so I'd say the mods there are pretty ill-tempered or at least this is what I have experienced. I'd say official forums would be better despite the troll threads that might arise, you just can't get away with fansite forums.
Why keep around posts that get people banned? They would have to contain some sort of objectionable material, so why keep that around for people to see, respond to, and keep the cycle going. Hell, I've seen someone reply to a post 2 years old before on a forum to correct and insult that person. How do you expect flamebait to go over?
And Unlight, I've had posts dissapear into the ether here with no warning or PM as to why. But I know why. It got deleted because of a rather tonge in cheek comment about one of the articles on GW2 that they posted. But I've also recieved a PM once when I did attack. It's all about the severity and nature of the offense that dictates the response. I would go into more detail the exact nature of my post that got removed here, but hey, that would be a bit inpolite.
Are the guru2 mods unprofessional? Sometimes. Are some of em ornery asshats? Golly gee you betchya, Unlucky Slayer is a great example. But their thread closures are valid and bans justified. They may not close the right way, but those threads tend to deserve the closure.
You know, I can't say if I've ever seen someone banned on Guru. I'm not sure I'd even recognize what it would look like. Though I have a feeling I may well be getting a first-hand experience shortly.
I don't really have an issue with heavy-handed thread closures. It may tweak my whiskers sometimes, but I leave it to the moderators to enforce board policy. They know the rules better than I do and when it comes down to a judgment call, it's their's to make. What really bugs me is the impartiality.
The rationale for their actions is none of my business for the most part, although a brief explanation for a thread closure is something I think anyone can appreciate, if for no other reason than to ensure that anyone reading the message learns a bit more about what's considered acceptable policy. But it should never be done by choosing a side of an argument first. The evaluation should consist of whether or not rules have been broken and if the thread remains valid. Not who's right and who's wrong.
It's tricky to maintain an air of even-handedness when the moderators are part of the community and are also participants in the threads. Diplomacy becomes a much larger issue in that case. But it seems clear to me that if one of them feels that a thread needs to be closed, the last thing they should be doing is using that final post as a soap box to give the final word on a topic, before picking up said box and walking off with it. Just close it. At least then, the complaints will focus on whether or not board policy was being followed, rather than impartiality or worse, favoritism.
I do hope that they manage to get it under control there eventually. It's well run in pretty much every other aspect. And I'd say better than the vast majority of "official" game forums I've seen. So despite my ranting (which is really only focused on one particular area), I still believe fan boards can be just as legitimate and useful as any official forum.
"I've never in all my time on the Internet seen a more pooorly handled system of moderation." You obviousy havent been around on the internet for long. Have you seen the state of AionSource? It's bloody awful, 7 posts into a thread and people are off topic.
...
Heh, yeah. Despite my bitching, Guru is far from the worse. I probably would have said nothing at all about it if I hadn't run into an incident just recently, then someone here started this topic. Timing is everything.
I'm very sorry to hear that people have had a bad experience with the guru boards. I'd like to point out that they've undergone a relatively recent change in management and we are determined to ensure that all the staff are of the highest quality.
As others have mentioned, if someone has done something bad enough to get banned then it is extremely unlikely that the thing they did would still be there for all to read. That wouldn't really be doing our jobs. Sometimes people get banned for things that are not immediately obvious to users, such as replying to a warning with a "screw you, I'll do what I want" or other non public harassment of members or staff. Additionally, people will sometimes get 24 hour timeouts for simply not listening to warnings so if someone appears banned that doesn't mean they've been perm banned!
Although we do not discuss specific moderation decisions publically, we are more than happy to discuss things privately with the users involved so if you feel you have been mistreated, please contact an admin or an smod such as myself. If you're concerned about the treatment of others but you don't know the full story, we may be able to alay your concerns somewhat although it is not our policy to discuss other people's diciplinary proceedings with third parties in detail.
Note: I work for the guildwars2guru forums as an SMod, but I have no involvement with the guild wars 1 fansite, so I will unfortunately be unable to personally help you with anything relating to that forum.
Hello,
I find that amusing. From what I remember, you're one of the mods on the power trip. Unless you had a epiphany, I suppose people can change. Besides, you know you're awesome when you're a mod on forums of a fansite. I hope you are well.
If ArenaNet had official forums, things would be much better. However, saying they never will is pushing it. I'm sure they will someday, whether its Guild Wars related or not is unknown. It's weird thinking about the next game they'll develop that isn't Guild Wars.
I find that amusing. From what I remember, you're one of the mods on the power trip. Unless you had a epiphany, I suppose people can change. Besides, you know you're awesome when you're a mod on forums of a fansite. I hope you are well.
If ArenaNet had official forums, things would be much better. However, saying they never will is pushing it. I'm sure they will someday, whether its Guild Wars related or not is unknown. It's weird thinking about the next game they'll develop that isn't Guild Wars.
As I said, if you believe you have been mistreated, please contact an administrator - I absolutely guarantee you that they will overrule anything I've done if they consider it to be inapprorpaite.
I don't think your accusation could be more nonspecific if you tried though so beyond what I just said, it's rather difficult to respond. You get vague accusations of "power tripping" from people when you warn them for flaming. I guess different people have different definitions of the inappropriate use of power and yours remains undefined.
I find that amusing. From what I remember, you're one of the mods on the power trip. Unless you had a epiphany, I suppose people can change. Besides, you know you're awesome when you're a mod on forums of a fansite. I hope you are well.
If ArenaNet had official forums, things would be much better. However, saying they never will is pushing it. I'm sure they will someday, whether its Guild Wars related or not is unknown. It's weird thinking about the next game they'll develop that isn't Guild Wars.
As I said, if you believe you have been mistreated, please contact an administrator - I absolutely guarantee you that they will overrule anything I've done if they consider it to be inapprorpaite.
I don't think your accusation could be more nonspecific if you tried though so beyond what I just said, it's rather difficult to respond. You get vague accusations of "power tripping" from people when you warn them for flaming. I guess different people have different definitions of the inappropriate use of power and yours remains undefined.
All I want to say is that looking at Guru from the moderation perspective, I understand how you guys can be a**holes at times. There's always someone complaining, or some stupid nonsense going on. But because a moderator reads something the way it wasn't intended and posts get deleted, it gets frustrating.
Guild Wars /2 has a great community. Try to lighten up and enjoy it! I love being a part of the community of game that is undergoing development. Everyone's excited, impatient, and some of us try to have a good time. Once beta opens up and everyone's excited to get into the game for the first time, things will get better for everyone.
All I want to say is that looking at Guru from the moderation perspective, I understand how you guys can be a**holes at times. There's always someone complaining, or some stupid nonsense going on. But because a moderator reads something the way it wasn't intended and posts get deleted, it gets frustrating.
Guild Wars /2 has a great community. Try to lighten up and enjoy it! I love being a part of the community of game that is undergoing development. Everyone's excited, impatient, and some of us try to have a good time. Once beta opens up and everyone's excited to get into the game for the first time, things will get better for everyone.
Cheers.
Haha, thank you for your understanding. We certainly are harsher on people posting memes and other stuff that doesn't contribute to the discussion than you might expect from a community as small as ours, but we're trying to ensure that the boards have a culture of posting productively so that when we grow as GW2 gets closer to launch, new members adopt this culture. I guess time will tell whether or not this is an effective technique!
It's comments in this thread from people who say they've been lurking but have got the impression that we're just banning people at random that is worrying me mostly. The number of active users who have been banned in the last 12 months is about 4 so I'm just not sure where this impression comes from.
Haha, thank you for your understanding. We certainly are harsher on people posting memes and other stuff that doesn't contribute to the discussion than you might expect from a community as small as ours, but we're trying to ensure that the boards have a culture of posting productively so that when we grow as GW2 gets closer to launch, new members adopt this culture. I guess time will tell whether or not this is an effective technique!
It's comments in this thread from people who say they've been lurking but have got the impression that we're just banning people at random that is worrying me mostly. The number of active users who have been banned in the last 12 months is about 4 so I'm just not sure where this impression comes from.
Yeah, but all 4 of those people are here on MMORPG.com!
(... okay, that's probably not true, but it would explain how that impression could come about. )
Haha, thank you for your understanding. We certainly are harsher on people posting memes and other stuff that doesn't contribute to the discussion than you might expect from a community as small as ours, but we're trying to ensure that the boards have a culture of posting productively so that when we grow as GW2 gets closer to launch, new members adopt this culture. I guess time will tell whether or not this is an effective technique!
It's comments in this thread from people who say they've been lurking but have got the impression that we're just banning people at random that is worrying me mostly. The number of active users who have been banned in the last 12 months is about 4 so I'm just not sure where this impression comes from.
I hate to bring this up, but I remember reporting a pedobear meme and nothing happened, so I posted a reply to the person posting the meme and then my post gets deleted and the meme stays. You were the mod that eneded up responding to me, telling me to learn the meme. Do you recall this incident? I don't want to call you a hypocrite or anything because I'm just not that bitter, lets just call it a misunderstanding.
Guru has its ups and downs. Some of you here have correct assumptions, but things aren't always that way. They're not bad forums. Just stay away from heated discussions.
I should point out that my Guru account has not been banned. lol
I hate to bring this up, but I remember reporting a pedobear meme and nothing happened, so I posted a reply to the person posting the meme and then my post gets deleted and the meme stays. You were the mod that eneded up responding to me, telling me to learn the meme. Do you recall this incident? I don't want to call you a hypocrite or anything because I'm just not that bitter, lets just call it a misunderstanding.
Guru has its ups and downs. Some of you here have correct assumptions, but things aren't always that way. They're not bad forums. Just stay away from heated discussions.
I should point out that my Guru account has not been banned. lol
I do indeed remember this - to some degree at least. I believe the meme was in someone's avatar, rather than in a post? Unfortunately I forget the exact details, but the reason we remove memes is because they don't contribute to the discussion but they do take up room (nobody wants to scroll past a page of memes to read the rest of the discussion).
In the case of this incident, if I remember correctly, it was more a case of that specific meme being seen as offensive, rather than not contributing to the discussion. It's one of those things that could probably be argued either way, but in the spirit of your previous comments about lightening up, I think it's best to give things like that the benefit of the doubt.
We should probably steer clear of discussing that topic in any more detail here but I will say that your objection was understandable because stuff like that can be very open to interpretation!
That was quite some time ago!
@Meowhead - the familiar faces are the best part of lurking on the MMORPG.com forums
For me personally I really cannot see how a forum can be a make it or break it deal for any video game. Every official forum I have ever been on has drama up the ying-yang, just like every other forum on the face of the internet. After all; the internet is the bathroom wall of society, at least according to my favorite comedian.
What I want out of a company is the flow of information, in the form of questions being answered and articles presenting information about the product. If that comes from an official forum, or through dozen of fan sites I really do not care or see the difference. As long as the Developers are out talking to the fan base and not staying closed up, why does it matter? Isn’t that what we all want developers that are talking to fans? Or do you really believe an official forum is more important than that?
I guess an official forum with developer interaction would be the best of the both worlds. But in the end isn’t the developer interaction what we are after here. Are you really going to ignore a developer that is interested in talking with the fans, just because they are not on a forum with their logo?
I guess I am weird, because I just want the business (no matter what it is) to want to talk to me and actually care about me, more then I care about the means in which they do it.
Comments
Normal forums do NOT show *post deleted by mod for [insert reason]*. For example, MMORPG doesn't. I've had a few posts deleted here and there (no arguments against them, I was being an ass in one and badmouthing one of their articles in another) and there is no evidence left over. Hell, sometimes I run across posts that are quoting something that no longer exists. This is how it is in most cases. Really, there are plenty of posts that worry about ArenaNet, cash shops, and a few on GW (which really doesn't have too much weight in GW2) and some of the mods in the past have openly stated worries about ArenaNet and GW2 (look at a post I linked above, that was fenix, a GW2G moderator, saying GW2 isn't going to innovate shit) .
Really, you're talking out of your ass. Find me some proof that the mods censor opinions contrary to their own instead of making such claims. And remember, its not always WHAT you say but HOW you say it.
And do any of you think an official forum would be better? There are horror stories out there of official forum moderation going overboard. Recently BioWare was in the headlines on that front. You usually can't talk bad about them or their product. Hell, there are a few stories of Gaile Gray going a little batshit from time to time out there. An official forum just means that they control the content, nothing more, nothing less.
And another note, discussion of moderator activity usually isn't allowed, regardless of where you are. Really, try it. Most places that even try to put on an air of professionalism won't allow it. Try discussing MMORPG mod actions here. It won't end well.
Disagreement Heirarchy
I personally don't think an official forum would be better, but if you honestly think that the GW2Guru mods don't act with bias and petulance, you're just not paying attention. I've personally written complaints to mods due to some of their more asinine behaviour. Once, for actually pouring gasoline on a simmering flamewar by resorting to personal insults and another time for joining the fray with their own opinion on a subject, then closing the thread in the very same post. And that's not even the same instance as the example I used in my earlier post above. I swear, the mods there act like they're 13 year old children with delusions of grandeur.
The mysteriously deleted posts is another irk for me since I've had mine simply disappear before without a note, a warning or an explanation. Nothing. Just poof. And I've always been on my best behaviour there, not like here where I actually earn the rare deletion and the occasional smack upside the head. But at least I know when it happens and why.
It's simple, the people they have in charge of moderation over at Guru are as bad as the 'troublemakers' they're supposed to be policing. Luckily, the forum is also home to some of the nicest and most intelligent people I've met online. Unfortunately, they're not the ones holding the banhammers.
What I mean when I say *Post deleted blahblah* is that the moderator writes why the whole thing was erased, a la Tera forums or it just outright says *Post deleted by moderator or admin* like in Gamefaqs and Runescape. It just shows that the post was moderated in some way. Not just having it disappear into nothingness so no one can see the secret police have been at work at silencing dissent.
I can't find you any proof because as people have stated in this thread, your posts are *POOF* gone and deleted at Guru. You can either watch the forums and see posts disappear or make a post on a hot topic and watch it disappear if you hit a home run. You don't have to troll, swear or act like a jerk to get a post deleted at GW guru.
At a professional forum, you're supposed to be able to discuss it via form or pm. In "Theory" at Guru you can send a mail. Just don't expect a response. I've never gotten one.
It's not the moderators duty in any way to notify you of post edits or deletion. If you actually read the forum rules:
"We reserve the right to edit posts for format, content, or clarity, without notice. However, we will not intentionally change the substance of what anyone says, and will inform you if we make any substantial changes. Posting meaningless deranged psychobabble with no substantial merit or posts that do not contribute to the thread discussion will more than likely be deleted without notice."
Most chances people actually know what they have done wrong for posts to be deleted, if you can't get your head around it then send a PM. Not that hard really, if you just look at the moderators list at the bottom of the forum you can send a PM to any of them - they all should see a reason to why the post was deleted.
And, do you have any idea how time consuming it would be for moderators to notify users of deleted posts? Nice thread on this btw: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/idea-pm-modding-posts-t15423.html
You may argue "bias opinion" blah blah blah, but it's true. It's could be very time consuming, and it isn't needed. Most users can wrap their head around why their post went "poof". Anyways if you don't like it, go somewhere else.
Fair enough. But I've never had a post of mine just disappear into the ether in this forum. Those that have gone bye-bye have been accompanied by a mostly deserved warning and explanation. But hey, if they don't have time over at Guru to provide a proper follow up for their actions, fine. But that doesn't excuse them getting involved in mudslinging and flaming with the rest of us kids. They expected to be treated with a higher standard by the rest of community, then they have an obligation to live up to that standard. Frequently, they fail to do so.
Limited resources is an excuse that can only be carried so far. The amount of time and money available to devote to moderation simply can't excuse unprofessional conduct since frankly, that kind of behaviour is free.
I accept that some mods do have a biased opinion and are sometimes incapable of divorcing their decisions from it. However, they've got no call to go spreading that opinion around to others, getting their say, then closing out the thread so that their "opinion" is the last to be voiced.
I can put up with vanishing posts and heavy-handed moderation. What I can't abide is using your authority on a forum to ensure you get the last word on a topic. And I'm not talking about deciding whether a thread continues to have merit, but about voicing who you think is right and wrong in an argument, then slamming your gavel down and clearing the court room. Either they are impartial arbiters of a thread's validity, or they are tin-pot dictators with an axe to grind. Too frequently at Guru, it's the latter.
Moderators don't get paid, they do it out of choice. Yes, they have opinions but it is heavily discouraged to do as you put it "use their opinion to close a thread".
Guru works on a hierarchical system, going admins > super moderators > moderators to put it very blandly. If you every see this occuring, just notify the smod/admin of that forum. Since moderators do have a soul, and arent just robots, this does sometimes happen.
My experience with the gw2guru forums hasn't been the best so far. I have been lurking for months there and posting on and off and what I have seen is people getting banned for no reason at all, sometimes I might even search their username and find their latest posts and what I see is they got into some kind of debate and then instantly get ban-hammered so I'd say the mods there are pretty ill-tempered or at least this is what I have experienced. I'd say official forums would be better despite the troll threads that might arise, you just can't get away with fansite forums.
Yeah, outside of the "Cost" and the ability for fan sites to moderate everything with no offical backlash.
Flimsy. Very, very flimsy.
I actually have notified an admin about this kind of behaviour -- the first time it happened. And to their credit, they were very courteous and it was addressed (to my knowledge) quickly. But that hasn't put a stop to it and in fact, the problem has grown much worse over the past months. Now it's true that I can complain everytime I see something that I feel is being handled poorly, but frankly, I don't like being in a position to police the police. And really, I shouldn't have to. To me, the problems are self-evident and it shouldn't require constant prodding from l'il ol' me to effect change.
I understand that the mods are unpaid and they are doing the service on a purely volunteer basis, but it doesn't excuse the job being done poorly. The admins should at the very least, review these volunteers to ensure that they are adhering to some basic guidelines that any forum moderator should be in line with. And if they find that some of them can't keep to the high standards expected of them, they should be dismissed with a sincere 'thank you' for the good work (there is the good as well as the bad) they've done, then find someone else.
Anyway, in the scope of the thread, there's nothing I'm saying here that can't really be applied to an offcial site as well. Only their people will be getting paid, so there's even less excuse for poor behaviour. Which certainly doesn't stop it. What Guru has going for it though is that it's the tightest concentration of GW2 knowledge on the planet outside of ArenaNet and most of the forum users are great to interact with. You just got to learn to dodge (or ignore) the occasional hissy fit by the mods.
Why keep around posts that get people banned? They would have to contain some sort of objectionable material, so why keep that around for people to see, respond to, and keep the cycle going. Hell, I've seen someone reply to a post 2 years old before on a forum to correct and insult that person. How do you expect flamebait to go over?
And Unlight, I've had posts dissapear into the ether here with no warning or PM as to why. But I know why. It got deleted because of a rather tonge in cheek comment about one of the articles on GW2 that they posted. But I've also recieved a PM once when I did attack. It's all about the severity and nature of the offense that dictates the response. I would go into more detail the exact nature of my post that got removed here, but hey, that would be a bit inpolite.
Are the guru2 mods unprofessional? Sometimes. Are some of em ornery asshats? Golly gee you betchya, Unlucky Slayer is a great example. But their thread closures are valid and bans justified. They may not close the right way, but those threads tend to deserve the closure.
Disagreement Heirarchy
The posts were not deleted and were nothing of objectionable or flame posts. They were simply things the mods probably disagreed with. Next thing you see is the person getting banned.
Keep in mind that I was scared off from Guru before I even got into it because I watched two threads where exactly what was described happened: There was an argument, and moderators jumped into this argument with their own opinions, forgetting that they were using moderation accounts and that this might be intimidating, they started picking out certain people and being quite nasty about it, and following that, posts started mysteriously disappearing. This happened in two threads that I was actively reading at the time. After that, I went on to see about 10 more threads overzealously locked (I don't know whether there was a disagreement there or whether they were just being lock-happy), and I thought to myself... you know, this does not seem like a nice place, so I'm going to avoid it, yeah?
And no one has to take my word for this, as has also been said you can just go and lurk or even dare posting yourself, if you happen to end up unlucky enough to be in a debate where a moderator is throwing around his or her weight, then there will be deletions, and you'll likely be deleted. What irks me about this is that they do this to make it look like the opinion of the moderators is the sole, prevailing opinion and this really bugs me, I mean, it should bug you, too. What this says is that even if a majority disagrees with the moderation then what will happen is that the dissenting posts will disappear like so much sand in the wind, never to be seen again. It'll look like the moderators are amazing people whose opinions are never wrong - whilst really they shouldn't be getting into these debates in the first place.
This was the only forum I'd ever seen where the moderators themselves were getting involved with this sort of behaviour, and I'm not talking about the users here but the moderators themselves, because I've never in all my time on the Internet seen a more pooorly handled system of moderation. Most forums I've been on DO tell you when they've had to edit a post, they give the name of the moderator responsible, they say why, and then you know where you stepped out of line. GameFAQs does this and you can hop on over to their forums and verify this for yourself, but this isn't my only issue either, one other thing that I rarely ever see iis moderators getting involved in debates and sicussions using their actual moderation accounts to do so.
In other communities, I've actually known people who've used non-moderation accounts to discuss things with people, and then when they handle moderation they use another account, if they don't feel they can do so objectively then they ask someone else to have a look instead of acting right away, and that's the best system, isn't it? In fact, I was a moderator for that community and this is why I know a thing or two about good moderation, and I can also know bad moderation when I see it, but it goes deeper than that on Guru and there I can smell out and out corruption, they're not even hiding that they merrily abuse their power. And is that what we want for Guild Wars 2, is that really what we want, is this the forum we want represneting the game?
The problem is is that if they're corrupt and abusing their powers like that then ArenaNet can never really get a good idea of how people really feel about things, and who knows what other shenanigans they're up to, they could be modifying polls or doing god knows what else in order to make their opinions the most dominant ones. I was put off that site after a week of lurking because I could see how freely they abused their powers, and I'm sorry but I just don't like that, they should know better and they should behave better, being such a major site they have to behave better than that, but they don't. This is why I want an official forum and if you think about it it makes sense, it really does, because the moderators on an official forum would not be allowed to push their own opinions and modify the entire forum to make it look like their opinions are the most widely held ones. That couldn't happen. And if it did, then the people responsible would be quickly ousted.
But as I see it, the corruption goes all the way up the chain in Guru, it must do because otherwise they'd do something to get that corruption under control, to do more to keep their moderators in line. As it is, you can't really trust any information there in regards to what people like or dislike, because therre's information shaping going on. Their actions are literally training the more long term members not to question them on various topics and we can even see that in this thread, one person said that it's a good idea to avoid mod hissy fits, but that's exactly the problem, because when a mod has a hissy fit they go around deleting posts that disagree with their viewpoint. So all debates always come out in the favour of the moderators responsible. No flaming here, no trolling, just simple manipulation, and the use of power to manipulate the information of an entire community. How can that possibly be right?
On the upside, IncGamers does look a lot better from my cursory glance around those forums. There are a few familiar names there from Guru, but their attitude seems very much toned down from the unashamed egomania that I've witnessed on Guru. It seems that someone in the IncGamer chain has put their foot down and said that that sort of nonsense won't be allowed there, so it does look like a better place for it. I still worry that with those names present that it would be an untrustworthy place, but I haven't seen any reason to doubt the forums thus far.
I concur with Dream_Chaser on this. What Guru has been known to do with their moderation activities is nothing less than stifling free speech.
Now, as some of you know by now from other posts on the topic of the Guru forums, I have a bias, but I have never said why before; but I will now.
Way back in the early days of GW, Guru hosted a tournament series. Being the designated representative for a whole alliance worth of GvG guilds, I was given Guest Moderator status in order to help coordinate the guilds being entered into the tournament. I, and several other guest mods, were working under a SuperMod by the handle 8ball.
The tournament series was supposed to be divided up into skill tiers. Now having worked with many guilds, we (the guest mods) were familiar with a lot of the players that were registering and tried to place the teams into the appropriate tier. But then something fishy happened people with brand new Guru accounts (and player names that were unknown to all of the guest mods) started appearing on teams for unheard of guilds. So we brought it up with 8ball, with suspicions that these could possibly be smurf guilds. We were told to let it play out, and it would be looked into during qualifier play. Only then qualifier play was dropped, and these smurfs (obvious once then matches began) walked away with the prizes for the lower divisions than the should have competed against. Again, 8ball ignored many complaints from the g. mods and from player that were beaten by the smurfs. We went to an Admin with the issue, and despite overwhelming evidence of corruption, the admin sided with the supermod. Consequently, all of the guest mod accounts were banned citing harassment/defamation of a SuperMod.
My account, which formerly had achieved Power Buyer status on Guru Auction, was among those banned.
So thats my story of the corruption that plagues Guru. Thats why I hope beyond all things that Anet will eventually see the demand for an Official Forum.
I don't think I've ever said so much conerntrated BS in one post on the internet. It looks like you're comparing an internet fan site about a game to real world politics, corruption? Really? It seems you're making a lot of hollow arguements here without any proof, makes you very unreliable. I think you're taking this far to seriously, it's the internet.
Sure Arenanet read the forums, but polls are very unreliable in the first place - not everybody can make one. Most of them arent clear anyways "What's your favourite race?" - Like Arenanet cares.
Moderators never do anything such as manipulation, most of the time when posts are edited it to remove flame/bad language. This happends because not everybody on the internet is over 14. GW1 was a 12+ game, so some 12 year olds might want to join a forum, they don't want to see bad language at such a young age, heck some 20 year old might not want to see some topics being discussed.
Flame is removed to keep guru a healthy environment, most people are turned off by it. They don't want to voice their opinions on such matters when they're just going to get insulted for simple mistakes or somebody disagreeing with them. Flame in all cases is NOT GOOD.
"I've never in all my time on the Internet seen a more pooorly handled system of moderation." You obviousy havent been around on the internet for long. Have you seen the state of AionSource? It's bloody awful, 7 posts into a thread and people are off topic.
therez0
I guess that event happened over 4-5 years ago, you're arguement is very flawed.
Hi,
I'm very sorry to hear that people have had a bad experience with the guru boards. I'd like to point out that they've undergone a relatively recent change in management and we are determined to ensure that all the staff are of the highest quality.
As others have mentioned, if someone has done something bad enough to get banned then it is extremely unlikely that the thing they did would still be there for all to read. That wouldn't really be doing our jobs. Sometimes people get banned for things that are not immediately obvious to users, such as replying to a warning with a "screw you, I'll do what I want" or other non public harassment of members or staff. Additionally, people will sometimes get 24 hour timeouts for simply not listening to warnings so if someone appears banned that doesn't mean they've been perm banned!
Although we do not discuss specific moderation decisions publically, we are more than happy to discuss things privately with the users involved so if you feel you have been mistreated, please contact an admin or an smod such as myself. If you're concerned about the treatment of others but you don't know the full story, we may be able to alay your concerns somewhat although it is not our policy to discuss other people's diciplinary proceedings with third parties in detail.
Note: I work for the guildwars2guru forums as an SMod, but I have no involvement with the guild wars 1 fansite, so I will unfortunately be unable to personally help you with anything relating to that forum.
You know, I can't say if I've ever seen someone banned on Guru. I'm not sure I'd even recognize what it would look like. Though I have a feeling I may well be getting a first-hand experience shortly.
I don't really have an issue with heavy-handed thread closures. It may tweak my whiskers sometimes, but I leave it to the moderators to enforce board policy. They know the rules better than I do and when it comes down to a judgment call, it's their's to make. What really bugs me is the impartiality.
The rationale for their actions is none of my business for the most part, although a brief explanation for a thread closure is something I think anyone can appreciate, if for no other reason than to ensure that anyone reading the message learns a bit more about what's considered acceptable policy. But it should never be done by choosing a side of an argument first. The evaluation should consist of whether or not rules have been broken and if the thread remains valid. Not who's right and who's wrong.
It's tricky to maintain an air of even-handedness when the moderators are part of the community and are also participants in the threads. Diplomacy becomes a much larger issue in that case. But it seems clear to me that if one of them feels that a thread needs to be closed, the last thing they should be doing is using that final post as a soap box to give the final word on a topic, before picking up said box and walking off with it. Just close it. At least then, the complaints will focus on whether or not board policy was being followed, rather than impartiality or worse, favoritism.
I do hope that they manage to get it under control there eventually. It's well run in pretty much every other aspect. And I'd say better than the vast majority of "official" game forums I've seen. So despite my ranting (which is really only focused on one particular area), I still believe fan boards can be just as legitimate and useful as any official forum.
Heh, yeah. Despite my bitching, Guru is far from the worse. I probably would have said nothing at all about it if I hadn't run into an incident just recently, then someone here started this topic. Timing is everything.
Hello,
I find that amusing. From what I remember, you're one of the mods on the power trip. Unless you had a epiphany, I suppose people can change. Besides, you know you're awesome when you're a mod on forums of a fansite. I hope you are well.
If ArenaNet had official forums, things would be much better. However, saying they never will is pushing it. I'm sure they will someday, whether its Guild Wars related or not is unknown. It's weird thinking about the next game they'll develop that isn't Guild Wars.
As I said, if you believe you have been mistreated, please contact an administrator - I absolutely guarantee you that they will overrule anything I've done if they consider it to be inapprorpaite.
I don't think your accusation could be more nonspecific if you tried though so beyond what I just said, it's rather difficult to respond. You get vague accusations of "power tripping" from people when you warn them for flaming. I guess different people have different definitions of the inappropriate use of power and yours remains undefined.
All I want to say is that looking at Guru from the moderation perspective, I understand how you guys can be a**holes at times. There's always someone complaining, or some stupid nonsense going on. But because a moderator reads something the way it wasn't intended and posts get deleted, it gets frustrating.
Guild Wars /2 has a great community. Try to lighten up and enjoy it! I love being a part of the community of game that is undergoing development. Everyone's excited, impatient, and some of us try to have a good time. Once beta opens up and everyone's excited to get into the game for the first time, things will get better for everyone.
Cheers.
Haha, thank you for your understanding. We certainly are harsher on people posting memes and other stuff that doesn't contribute to the discussion than you might expect from a community as small as ours, but we're trying to ensure that the boards have a culture of posting productively so that when we grow as GW2 gets closer to launch, new members adopt this culture. I guess time will tell whether or not this is an effective technique!
It's comments in this thread from people who say they've been lurking but have got the impression that we're just banning people at random that is worrying me mostly. The number of active users who have been banned in the last 12 months is about 4 so I'm just not sure where this impression comes from.
Yeah, but all 4 of those people are here on MMORPG.com!
(... okay, that's probably not true, but it would explain how that impression could come about.
)
I hate to bring this up, but I remember reporting a pedobear meme and nothing happened, so I posted a reply to the person posting the meme and then my post gets deleted and the meme stays. You were the mod that eneded up responding to me, telling me to learn the meme. Do you recall this incident? I don't want to call you a hypocrite or anything because I'm just not that bitter, lets just call it a misunderstanding.
Guru has its ups and downs. Some of you here have correct assumptions, but things aren't always that way. They're not bad forums. Just stay away from heated discussions.
I should point out that my Guru account has not been banned. lol
I do indeed remember this - to some degree at least. I believe the meme was in someone's avatar, rather than in a post? Unfortunately I forget the exact details, but the reason we remove memes is because they don't contribute to the discussion but they do take up room (nobody wants to scroll past a page of memes to read the rest of the discussion).
In the case of this incident, if I remember correctly, it was more a case of that specific meme being seen as offensive, rather than not contributing to the discussion. It's one of those things that could probably be argued either way, but in the spirit of your previous comments about lightening up, I think it's best to give things like that the benefit of the doubt.
We should probably steer clear of discussing that topic in any more detail here but I will say that your objection was understandable because stuff like that can be very open to interpretation!
That was quite some time ago!
@Meowhead - the familiar faces are the best part of lurking on the MMORPG.com forums
For me personally I really cannot see how a forum can be a make it or break it deal for any video game. Every official forum I have ever been on has drama up the ying-yang, just like every other forum on the face of the internet. After all; the internet is the bathroom wall of society, at least according to my favorite comedian.
What I want out of a company is the flow of information, in the form of questions being answered and articles presenting information about the product. If that comes from an official forum, or through dozen of fan sites I really do not care or see the difference. As long as the Developers are out talking to the fan base and not staying closed up, why does it matter? Isn’t that what we all want developers that are talking to fans? Or do you really believe an official forum is more important than that?
I guess an official forum with developer interaction would be the best of the both worlds. But in the end isn’t the developer interaction what we are after here. Are you really going to ignore a developer that is interested in talking with the fans, just because they are not on a forum with their logo?
I guess I am weird, because I just want the business (no matter what it is) to want to talk to me and actually care about me, more then I care about the means in which they do it.