As long as GW2 has an efficient/working system for submitting CS/technical tickets (both in game and out) i don't give a rat's ass if there is no forums.
I am not overly fond of fansite forums simply due to having to deal with generally inconsistent, and sometimes overzealous, moderation. Everyone has realistic expectations of how official forums are moderated by game company staff. At fansites you are dealing with the whims of people who can do whatever the heck they please (with regards to forum moderation) with little to no repurcussions unless some sort of scandal breaks out.
After the FFXIVCore debacle, where the owner/administrator (who had staff that supported his actions) was busted selling non-existent FFXIV closed beta keys to desperate members, I would never trust a fansite's staff with anything again.
This thread reminds me of the old days when i had the camelot IGN VN forums linked for DAOC... Not every game needs official forums,.,. the DAOC forums were over on VN... Ahhh the good ole days when mmorpgs were a community and fun. I am putting all my easter eggs in the GW basket, because otherwise we're SOL with a daoc like game
I hope at the very least that if there aren't an official forums, that they'll run their own surveys for every important issue, because my poblem is still that generally fan forums you have to take with a pinch of salt. There's no reliable information, there, in regards to what people want. That's the only part that bothers me, really. I suppose then that so long as they did do their own surveys, it could turn out well. But if there wa a hotly disputed element of the game, for and against, then you could never really datamine fan forums for realistic information in regards to how players really feel. They're an unreliable source.
I hope at the very least that if there aren't an official forums, that they'll run their own surveys for every important issue, because my poblem is still that generally fan forums you have to take with a pinch of salt. There's no reliable information, there, in regards to what people want. That's the only part that bothers me, really. I suppose then that so long as they did do their own surveys, it could turn out well. But if there wa a hotly disputed element of the game, for and against, then you could never really datamine fan forums for realistic information in regards to how players really feel. They're an unreliable source.
Exactly. This is why I would that they rather not use any forms at all if they are not using their own official forums. They can do IRC chats, their blog, facebook, tweeter, I don't care, but once they start dealing with fansites it only benefits those that can put up with the population that's on that fansite.
lolwat no forums? That's ridiculous. It can cost next to nothing, just let a few trusted fans from guildwars2guru be mods or something.
It's often a resonable way to keep a dialoge between the players and the devs
Forums are full of crap posts. There are other ways to communicate from devs to players (login screen, email, etc). For bug reports, you can file a bug.
getting rid of forums gets rid of the crap posts about balance and how this class needs a buff/nerf. Great to see those people who waste forum space get nothing out of it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I was just thinking of making a thread just like this one. I wrote nearly all of this post before reading any of the thread, but after getting most of the way through, the post has become a lot more relevant.
The main reason I was going to make this thread is that I really hate GW2Guru and will never make an account there. It's unfortunate that the closest thing we will ever have to official forums is run by fanboys who edit, delete, merge, and lock wantonly throughout the board. And I KNOW that posts get deleted A LOT because I'll very frequently see people quoting posts that no longer exist. Said something negative? Deleted. Having a conversation? Nope, no longer relevant to the OP. Locked. Posting something specific about a class? No, that belongs in the hundred-some-odd page thread specified for that class. Merged if you're lucky. They once even divided a thread in two, resulting in a huge mess that no one could make sense of, and so both topics ended up dying.
Oh, sure, there are several threads where people complain about features they don't understand, but it seems that a negative post can only occur in a negative thread. Anything else would be considered "off topic". Of course, this is only if the thread itself survives.
Speaking of those complaints, I've noticed that the vast majority of people complaining about game mechanics didn't play any MMOs other than GW. ("OMG potions", "no more energy manip? wtf", "You can't change your first 5 skills? LAME!") Representative of GW2's future playerbase? I think not.
I've seen people having ordinary discussions there, then a mod will pop in, tell the OP his thread is pointless, and lock it at the same time.
For a long time, I wondered why everyone was always so nice on that site. It was like a big circle jerk. It was disgusting. Then I eventually realized that all the negative posts were just getting deleted.
That's why I like this site. When people want to bitch, they come out and do it, and if they need to get told, someone tells them. Yeah, posts still get deleted, but when they do, it's pretty obvious why. (You also get a PM about it.)
I know ANet keeps tabs on their various forums, but when someone who just bought the game has something to say (or a question to ask), they need a central place they can go. What are they supposed to do? Search for fansites and pick one?
EDIT: And now that I've finished reading the thread, I see that this has pretty much all been mentioned already. : Oh well...
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
I was just thinking of making a thread just like this one. I wrote nearly all of this post before reading any of the thread, but after getting most of the way through, the post has become a lot more relevant.
The main reason I was going to make this thread is that I really hate GW2Guru and will never make an account there. It's unfortunate that the closest thing we will ever have to official forums is run by fanboys who edit, delete, merge, and lock wantonly throughout the board. And I KNOW that posts get deleted A LOT because I'll very frequently see people quoting posts that no longer exist. Said something negative? Deleted. Having a conversation? Nope, no longer relevant to the OP. Locked. Posting something specific about a class? No, that belongs in the hundred-some-odd page thread specified for that class. Merged if you're lucky. They once even divided a thread in two, resulting in a huge mess that no one could make sense of, and so both topics ended up dying.
Oh, sure, there are several threads where people complain about features they don't understand, but it seems that a negative post can only occur in a negative thread. Anything else would be considered "off topic". Of course, this is only if the thread itself survives.
Speaking of those complaints, I've noticed that the vast majority of people complaining about game mechanics didn't play any MMOs other than GW. ("OMG potions", "no more energy manip? wtf", "You can't change your first 5 skills? LAME!") Representative of GW2's future playerbase? I think not.
I've seen people having ordinary discussions there, then a mod will pop in, tell the OP his thread is pointless, and lock it at the same time.
For a long time, I wondered why everyone was always so nice on that site. It was like a big circle jerk. It was disgusting. Then I eventually realized that all the negative posts were just getting deleted.
That's why I like this site. When people want to bitch, they come out and do it, and if they need to get told, someone tells them. Yeah, posts still get deleted, but when they do, it's pretty obvious why. (You also get a PM about it.)
I know ANet keeps tabs on their various forums, but when someone who just bought the game has something to say (or a question to ask), they need a central place they can go. What are they supposed to do? Search for fansites and pick one?
EDIT: And now that I've finished reading the thread, I see that this has pretty much all been mentioned already. : Oh well...
I think you summed all of it up pretty well. Well said.
Exactly. This is why I would that they rather not use any forms at all if they are not using their own official forums. They can do IRC chats, their blog, facebook, tweeter, I don't care, but once they start dealing with fansites it only benefits those that can put up with the population that's on that fansite.
You make it sound like official forums are all sunshine and roses! Well you know your comment about “it only benefits those that can put up with the population”; this can be said about official forums too. Is it really that hard to use the developer tracker if you do not want to deal with the population? Interesting just like an official forum, you can skip the rest if you want too. OH my god what a novel idea!
But you're side-stepping the issue: Any information that comes from a fan site is inherently unreliable. The problem I have is that ArenaNet are going to be using a fan site for their primary source of player feedback, data-mining it to estimate how players feel about any given topic. But when moderators can control and shape the appearance of the information to their liking, and have already shown a desire to do so, the information coming from that source can only be suspect, its trustworthiness isn't valid because the source isn't controlled by ArenaNet.
The only way that reliable feedback can be obtained from the playerbase is if the source is controlled by ArenaNet. On anything hosted by fans, the data can be manipulated or deleted. Ten people could voice their opinion against an upcoming change, and those posts could disappear into the night, this could happen on any part of the fan hosted service because the people in control aren't ArenaNet but fans. It wouldn't be in ArenaNet's best interest, financially, as a company that makes money to screw up their own information, because they want to know what the fans like so they can make more of that in order to make money. However, it would be in a fan's best interest to shape data to fit what they like because it means they get more of what they like in a game. This is a problem.
What it essntially means, as I said, is that ArenaNet can only take something that comes from a fan hosted service wtih a grain of salt because you don't know what degree of data manipulation is going on. If the moderators are quick and dedicate themselves to shaping information, then any dissent could be cleaned up before ArenaNet's people do the rounds to see what people are thinking on the forums. I'm fine with forums, that's not the problem, I just think that ArenaNet shouldn't at all be associated with tehm.
ArenaNet should have their own trackers and surveys at least, even if not an official forum, so that they may correctly guage how the playerbase feels about different things. And they also shouldn't link to any fan forums, because what happens if they do is that new players head to that forum and they're taught by peer pressure and post deletion what issues the moderators don't want them arguing for/against. So ArenaNet should completely disassociate themselves from fan communities as well, regardless of whether they have their own forums. People should use a good old Internet search to find an applicable forum if they want to talk.
In short - I don't want GW2Guru to be a monopoly on information/feedback when they have a reputation for manipulating such.
But you're side-stepping the issue: Any information that comes from a fan site is inherently unreliable. The problem I have is that ArenaNet are going to be using a fan site for their primary source of player feedback, data-mining it to estimate how players feel about any given topic. But when moderators can control and shape the appearance of the information to their liking, and have already shown a desire to do so, the information coming from that source can only be suspect, its trustworthiness isn't valid because the source isn't controlled by ArenaNet.
The only way that reliable feedback can be obtained from the playerbase is if the source is controlled by ArenaNet. On anything hosted by fans, the data can be manipulated or deleted. Ten people could voice their opinion against an upcoming change, and those posts could disappear into the night, this could happen on any part of the fan hosted service because the people in control aren't ArenaNet but fans. It wouldn't be in ArenaNet's best interest, financially, as a company that makes money to screw up their own information, because they want to know what the fans like so they can make more of that in order to make money. However, it would be in a fan's best interest to shape data to fit what they like because it means they get more of what they like in a game. This is a problem.
What it essntially means, as I said, is that ArenaNet can only take something that comes from a fan hosted service wtih a grain of salt because you don't know what degree of data manipulation is going on. If the moderators are quick and dedicate themselves to shaping information, then any dissent could be cleaned up before ArenaNet's people do the rounds to see what people are thinking on the forums. I'm fine with forums, that's not the problem, I just think that ArenaNet shouldn't at all be associated with tehm.
ArenaNet should have their own trackers and surveys at least, even if not an official forum, so that they may correctly guage how the playerbase feels about different things. And they also shouldn't link to any fan forums, because what happens if they do is that new players head to that forum and they're taught by peer pressure and post deletion what issues the moderators don't want them arguing for/against. So ArenaNet should completely disassociate themselves from fan communities as well, regardless of whether they have their own forums. People should use a good old Internet search to find an applicable forum if they want to talk.
In short - I don't want GW2Guru to be a monopoly on information/feedback when they have a reputation for manipulating such.
Inherently unreliable huh? So you're telling me that they have the ability to somehow tamper with official blog posts? I have nothing against you personally, but that was just stupid to say. Think before you speak next time.
But you're side-stepping the issue: Any information that comes from a fan site is inherently unreliable. 1. The problem I have is that ArenaNet are going to be using a fan site for their primary source of player feedback, data-mining it to estimate how players feel about any given topic. But when moderators can control and shape the appearance of the information to their liking, and have already shown a desire to do so, the information coming from that source can only be suspect, its trustworthiness isn't valid because the source isn't controlled by ArenaNet.
2. In short - I don't want GW2Guru to be a monopoly on information/feedback when they have a reputation for manipulating such.
First off where did you get the idea that they are going to be using that as a source for data mining? The links I posted were to more official posts that answer question or clear up confusion; IE developer trackers.
In fact you are creating problems here that do not even exist, Arena Net uses surveys to get information from their audience not the fan sites! In fact in the time I have been playing guild wars I can remember at least 5 that I have participated in. Here is a link to a post talking about a survey that was created for Guild Wars so ANet could get an idea of what the fans thought of the War in Kryta. And here is a blog post talking about the results off the survey.
Now don’t you think you were getting a little ahead of yourself here without all the facts! The fan sites just like an official forum would be is just a place for communication, since we know ANet does surveys to find out what the fans think. We do not need to jump to any far reaching conclusions here about data mining and getting false information from overzealous moderators.
As for the second part I want to know where you get the idea that GuildWars2Guru has a monopoly. Here is two links (link1link2) to question that the developers have answered from the community, where does it say they got these questions from GW2Guru?
Also you keep saying that GW2guru is known for post manipulation, well I want to see proof they are manipulating what I linked. In fact what I said is that the population on official forums can be just as bad as or worse than fan sites! If you want to avoid this just like on the official forums you can use the developer tracker to get to the official information you want to see, in essence making the population a null factor. Now how is looking at the developer tracker going to get you to post that are being manipulated, unless you are saying the mods are changing what the Developers wrote. Here is a example of what you can find through the developer tracker: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=667954&postcount=209
I think you misunderstand. Fansites aren't an unreliable source of information for players. They are unreliable to the developers.
Fansites tend to cater to a specific type of fan, very often the more hardcore among them. A casual player may post on an official forum because it's easy to find and he already has an account there. A casual player is likely to not even know of an unofficial site, let alone actually make an account there. Most of the users on GW2G have played GW1, and many of them still play. The majority of GW2 players, however, won't even know anything about GW1. I remember this happening during WoW beta: most players hadn't played a Warcraft game before, and many didn't even know they existed. Players with different backgrounds approach games differently and have different reactions to them. A fansite might not give the proper amount of variety.
There is also the the potential for admin abuse, which can and does happen on most fansites, especially GW2G. Official forums may censor their users, but if they do it themselves, at least they know what was said. If the posts on fansites are deleted before the developers even see them, then they may never know what opinion is truly held.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
I don't see how people can still complain about the lack of an official forum when the devs seem to be so present in GW2guru. Just look at this page. They seem to be enjoying the atmosphere the site brings.
Sure you naysayers can just say that fansite are full of fanboys/fangirls and that they will be the downfall of this game, for not complaining enough. Yet it's these fanboys/fangirls that know the game inside-out (well as much as any non-ANet employee would know), so as soon as some worrying bit of info is released, they are always the most vocal about it. Whereas the casual followers that want an official forum are usually more oblivious about these minor things; so instead of genuine concerns, like the attribute system, you'll get a lot of people from other MMOs wanting the game to be more of what they want (more sandbox or more like WoW).
So I'd prefer things the way they are, even if some of the GW2guru mods may abuse their power. I've been a victim of this and yet I'm still dfending them. Just shows how little an official forum would bring, since they already have an official blog for all the little dev updates.
Geuss what? Official forums aren't a very good indication either. And there are plenty of people who haven't played GW at GW2G. Also, anybody who is seriously interested in becoming a part of the community doesn't have to look very hard to find GW2G. It holds the 4th link on a google search for "Guild Wars 2" and the first 3 links for "Guild Wars 2 forum," not counting the fact that it omits more because they would otherwise dominate the page.
And, honestly, if half the claims about GW2G moderators changing the flow of information and other such insidious actions the forum would be MUCH smaller. You don't keep forum members by stifling what they have to say. Also, as large as GW2G is right now, do you know how much work it would be to change or delete that many posts that might differ from what the moderation staff thinks?
For the arguement against fan forums - Anyone remember Aion Source? Devs/CMs posted there before official forums were made. Was hacked and e-mails and passwords taken, if you did'nt use a junk e-mail account and password which most common players would'nt, then you got scam e-mails in your mailbox.
FFXIV core - beta scamz by a moderator who still mods there I think.
As for the difficulty of censorship on guru, it's just click delete and you're done. That simple. Or if it's too many people being vocal on something you disagree on, merge threads, move it to a dead part of the forum and lock it. I did'nt realize half my posts were being deleted for a long time until I went back through a post "Discussion" looking for my post then through my post history to find half my posts were gone. I'm sure most people don't notice either. I wonder if Anet would remove guru's "Elite fansite" status if they got enough complaints...
- That's irrelevant information. I've pointed this out before but I suppose it can stand to be aired again; I suspect that NCsoft West would be providing forum and moderation services, so you have to judge by their stable. Take City of Heroes, for example, a forum that generallyy has a pretty good reputation. Not only that, as I said, I don't care if an official forum is present so much as they A) don't link to any fan forums as a recommendation, and host surveys, polls, and issue trackers themselves so that information can't be shaped. With those in place, I can agree that an official forum wouldn't be necessary. I will admit that I hadn't thought things through fully when I made my first post, and I'll agree that an official forum imight not be the ideal solution, but I feel that ANet hosting their own surveys, polls, and trackers to datamine would be.
And, honestly, if half the claims about GW2G moderators changing the flow of information and other such insidious actions the forum would be MUCH smaller. You don't keep forum members by stifling what they have to say. Also, as large as GW2G is right now, do you know how much work it would be to change or delete that many posts that might differ from what the moderation staff thinks?
- The question is is how many realise that this is happening? Thread merges and locks are easy to see, but if a moderator goes back and cleans up the earlier posts in a thread, then most people will be none the wiser. And many people simply may not care about corruption and such, just as not many people care about free speech, instead they just accept things for the way they are. But I saw a thread on GW2G that had 30 pages, but only 19 pages of them were accessible. Someone actually did raise the issue at the time because they didn't know what was causing it, and one of the moderators said that the moderation team had probably been cleaning up posts that were inappropriate. Anyone who's lurked at GW2G knows this, just as you should.
The point is is that some of us believe that GW2G and even similar fan forums shouldn't be so much in the limelight and have so much power - because power corrupts, and if they're a monopoly, then it corrupts absolutely. GW2G is just not a nice place in my opinion, but like I said... providing ArenaNet hosts their own services for data-mining, I don't really care whether or not they have an official forum at this point, because I can just hang out here or at IncGamers. The only thing that bothers me is the potential for information manipulation, and no amount of arguing back and forth is going to change my mind on that, because I believe that information manipulation is bad and too many people have seen it happen, even here there are just too many reports for it to not be true.
If you want, I can try and dig out one of those threads that have 30 pages but 20~ actual pages, providing the threads themselves haven't been merged or deleted. But that's actually a handy bug because it shows just how overzealous the moderators can be with deleting.
Well I guess this is a moot point then, since we know that Arena Net does surveys for data mining.
Originally posted by AKASlaphappy
In fact you are creating problems here that do not even exist, Arena Net uses surveys to get information from their audience not the fan sites! In fact in the time I have been playing guild wars I can remember at least 5 that I have participated in. Here is a link to a post talking about a survey that was created for Guild Wars so ANet could get an idea of what the fans thought of the War in Kryta. And here is a blog post talking about the results off the survey.
Wanna know something awesome? A dev was the first person to respond on this thread.
Notice further down the thread that...there is a big fail lol. People can't even send PMs to devs. Perhaps guru doesn't want devs to receive direct raw feedback from players w/out going through their threads/eyes, so that they can present to devs only the information that gurus agree with.
And if you really pay attention to all the posts made, you can see that people have to tip toe just to find a right place to post a question. It's like the users are begging to let their voices be heard while at the mercy of mods who are most likely to delete their question should it be something that a mod doesn't like. The whole atmosphere feels very limiting, tense, and hostile.
That thread alone helped me solidify the view that fan forums are a bad news, and I wish GW2 the best of luck, I'm getting off the GW2 train.
Wanna know something awesome? A dev was the first person to respond on this thread.
Notice further down the thread that...there is a big fail lol. People can't even send PMs to devs. Perhaps guru doesn't want devs to receive direct raw feedback from players w/out going through their threads/eyes, so that they can present to devs only the information that gurus agree with.
And if you really pay attention to all the posts made, you can see that people have to tip toe just to find a right place to post a question. It's like the users are begging to let their voices be heard while at the mercy of mods who are most likely to delete their question should it be something that a mod doesn't like. The whole atmosphere feels very limiting, tense, and hostile.
That thread alone helped me solidify the view that fan forums are a bad news, and I wish GW2 the best of luck, I'm getting off the GW2 train.
Of course they can't PM the devs. The devs would constantly get spammed by a ton of people asking pointless questions and rediculous questions.
If you don't like the game or don't like the fact that their are no official forums so much that you won't play the game then good riddance. I doubt many people would want you playing anyway.
Notice further down the thread that...there is a big fail lol. People can't even send PMs to devs. Perhaps guru doesn't want devs to receive direct raw feedback from players w/out going through their threads/eyes, so that they can present to devs only the information that gurus agree with.
OK what part of Arena Net uses surveys do you not understand? So how is Guru or any fansite influencing guild wars design? Unless you really believe that fan sites are manipulating data on the surveys to get there way! Got to love conspiracy theories!
Amazing idea on Arenanet's part. All it would be is people whining and antagonizing each other - souring the community before the game even releases. Instead they release what they want to show us and let the net discuss it.
I love how they do things - with their game, their vision, their art, and their presentation.
Anyway, Guild wars, and Guild Wars 2 never had, and never will have any offical forums.. The truth is the comunity took that duity off of them. Guild wars wiki and guild wars guru does a fien job at that, and fyi the devs themselves go to guru and reply to the fans. Thing most people dont realize is that guild wars has such an amazing comunity behind it, (alot less complaning than elsewhere aswell, This of course this is counting out the elite'st pvpers..) They also have radio staions and other things dedicated to the game.. again MADE BY THE FANS! Basicly Anet never had to build them.. Because their comunity already took that into their own hands.. which turned out great!
www.guildwars2guru.com/
wiki.guildwars2.com/
www.bladeradio.com/
(theres more but those are the main 3 areas that i coverd here)
OK what part of Arena Net uses surveys do you not understand? So how is Guru or any fansite influencing guild wars design?
Have you taken part in actual Arena Net surveys or just heard about them after the War in Kryta survey? 5, really? Where was the survey for cash shop, transmutation stones and all the other topics that came up in GW1 or after they release GW2 info? Oh right, there were none because they don't make surveys out the wazoo and wait 2 weeks for someone to sort through the feedback and to allow everyone to fill one out when they can visit forums and see the "Popular opinion" and have CM's post.
The limited survey of your personal information for the GW2 artbook does'nt count. It would be nice if it happened like you said, but really in the history of Guild Wars if they only happened 5 times as you say, then in my years of following the game I must of missed out on 3 of my golden chances to give feedback on the game, unless you count all those times I used the forums in places other than guru.
Comments
As long as GW2 has an efficient/working system for submitting CS/technical tickets (both in game and out) i don't give a rat's ass if there is no forums.
I am not overly fond of fansite forums simply due to having to deal with generally inconsistent, and sometimes overzealous, moderation. Everyone has realistic expectations of how official forums are moderated by game company staff. At fansites you are dealing with the whims of people who can do whatever the heck they please (with regards to forum moderation) with little to no repurcussions unless some sort of scandal breaks out.
After the FFXIVCore debacle, where the owner/administrator (who had staff that supported his actions) was busted selling non-existent FFXIV closed beta keys to desperate members, I would never trust a fansite's staff with anything again.
This thread reminds me of the old days when i had the camelot IGN VN forums linked for DAOC... Not every game needs official forums,.,. the DAOC forums were over on VN... Ahhh the good ole days when mmorpgs were a community and fun. I am putting all my easter eggs in the GW basket, because otherwise we're SOL with a daoc like game
I hope at the very least that if there aren't an official forums, that they'll run their own surveys for every important issue, because my poblem is still that generally fan forums you have to take with a pinch of salt. There's no reliable information, there, in regards to what people want. That's the only part that bothers me, really. I suppose then that so long as they did do their own surveys, it could turn out well. But if there wa a hotly disputed element of the game, for and against, then you could never really datamine fan forums for realistic information in regards to how players really feel. They're an unreliable source.
Exactly. This is why I would that they rather not use any forms at all if they are not using their own official forums. They can do IRC chats, their blog, facebook, tweeter, I don't care, but once they start dealing with fansites it only benefits those that can put up with the population that's on that fansite.
Playing: Darkfall Unholy Wars
Played: Darkfall, EVE, AoC, Ryzom, Ragnarok Online, GW2, PS2, Secret World, WOW, City Of Heroes/Villains, Champion Online.
Forums are full of crap posts. There are other ways to communicate from devs to players (login screen, email, etc). For bug reports, you can file a bug.
getting rid of forums gets rid of the crap posts about balance and how this class needs a buff/nerf. Great to see those people who waste forum space get nothing out of it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I was just thinking of making a thread just like this one. I wrote nearly all of this post before reading any of the thread, but after getting most of the way through, the post has become a lot more relevant.
The main reason I was going to make this thread is that I really hate GW2Guru and will never make an account there. It's unfortunate that the closest thing we will ever have to official forums is run by fanboys who edit, delete, merge, and lock wantonly throughout the board. And I KNOW that posts get deleted A LOT because I'll very frequently see people quoting posts that no longer exist. Said something negative? Deleted. Having a conversation? Nope, no longer relevant to the OP. Locked. Posting something specific about a class? No, that belongs in the hundred-some-odd page thread specified for that class. Merged if you're lucky. They once even divided a thread in two, resulting in a huge mess that no one could make sense of, and so both topics ended up dying.
Oh, sure, there are several threads where people complain about features they don't understand, but it seems that a negative post can only occur in a negative thread. Anything else would be considered "off topic". Of course, this is only if the thread itself survives.
Speaking of those complaints, I've noticed that the vast majority of people complaining about game mechanics didn't play any MMOs other than GW. ("OMG potions", "no more energy manip? wtf", "You can't change your first 5 skills? LAME!") Representative of GW2's future playerbase? I think not.
I've seen people having ordinary discussions there, then a mod will pop in, tell the OP his thread is pointless, and lock it at the same time.
For a long time, I wondered why everyone was always so nice on that site. It was like a big circle jerk. It was disgusting. Then I eventually realized that all the negative posts were just getting deleted.
That's why I like this site. When people want to bitch, they come out and do it, and if they need to get told, someone tells them. Yeah, posts still get deleted, but when they do, it's pretty obvious why. (You also get a PM about it.)
I know ANet keeps tabs on their various forums, but when someone who just bought the game has something to say (or a question to ask), they need a central place they can go. What are they supposed to do? Search for fansites and pick one?
EDIT: And now that I've finished reading the thread, I see that this has pretty much all been mentioned already. : Oh well...
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
I think you summed all of it up pretty well. Well said.
Playing: Darkfall Unholy Wars
Played: Darkfall, EVE, AoC, Ryzom, Ragnarok Online, GW2, PS2, Secret World, WOW, City Of Heroes/Villains, Champion Online.
You make it sound like official forums are all sunshine and roses! Well you know your comment about “it only benefits those that can put up with the population”; this can be said about official forums too. Is it really that hard to use the developer tracker if you do not want to deal with the population? Interesting just like an official forum, you can skip the rest if you want too. OH my god what a novel idea!
GW2Guru Developer tracker
Guildwars 2 Arena Developer tracker
But you're side-stepping the issue: Any information that comes from a fan site is inherently unreliable. The problem I have is that ArenaNet are going to be using a fan site for their primary source of player feedback, data-mining it to estimate how players feel about any given topic. But when moderators can control and shape the appearance of the information to their liking, and have already shown a desire to do so, the information coming from that source can only be suspect, its trustworthiness isn't valid because the source isn't controlled by ArenaNet.
The only way that reliable feedback can be obtained from the playerbase is if the source is controlled by ArenaNet. On anything hosted by fans, the data can be manipulated or deleted. Ten people could voice their opinion against an upcoming change, and those posts could disappear into the night, this could happen on any part of the fan hosted service because the people in control aren't ArenaNet but fans. It wouldn't be in ArenaNet's best interest, financially, as a company that makes money to screw up their own information, because they want to know what the fans like so they can make more of that in order to make money. However, it would be in a fan's best interest to shape data to fit what they like because it means they get more of what they like in a game. This is a problem.
What it essntially means, as I said, is that ArenaNet can only take something that comes from a fan hosted service wtih a grain of salt because you don't know what degree of data manipulation is going on. If the moderators are quick and dedicate themselves to shaping information, then any dissent could be cleaned up before ArenaNet's people do the rounds to see what people are thinking on the forums. I'm fine with forums, that's not the problem, I just think that ArenaNet shouldn't at all be associated with tehm.
ArenaNet should have their own trackers and surveys at least, even if not an official forum, so that they may correctly guage how the playerbase feels about different things. And they also shouldn't link to any fan forums, because what happens if they do is that new players head to that forum and they're taught by peer pressure and post deletion what issues the moderators don't want them arguing for/against. So ArenaNet should completely disassociate themselves from fan communities as well, regardless of whether they have their own forums. People should use a good old Internet search to find an applicable forum if they want to talk.
In short - I don't want GW2Guru to be a monopoly on information/feedback when they have a reputation for manipulating such.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/scott-mcgough-writing-charr-t15904.html
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/creating-charr-starter-area-t15861.html
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/prepare-for-charr-week-t15857.html
Inherently unreliable huh? So you're telling me that they have the ability to somehow tamper with official blog posts? I have nothing against you personally, but that was just stupid to say. Think before you speak next time.
First off where did you get the idea that they are going to be using that as a source for data mining? The links I posted were to more official posts that answer question or clear up confusion; IE developer trackers.
In fact you are creating problems here that do not even exist, Arena Net uses surveys to get information from their audience not the fan sites! In fact in the time I have been playing guild wars I can remember at least 5 that I have participated in. Here is a link to a post talking about a survey that was created for Guild Wars so ANet could get an idea of what the fans thought of the War in Kryta. And here is a blog post talking about the results off the survey.
Now don’t you think you were getting a little ahead of yourself here without all the facts! The fan sites just like an official forum would be is just a place for communication, since we know ANet does surveys to find out what the fans think. We do not need to jump to any far reaching conclusions here about data mining and getting false information from overzealous moderators.
As for the second part I want to know where you get the idea that GuildWars2Guru has a monopoly. Here is two links (link1 link2) to question that the developers have answered from the community, where does it say they got these questions from GW2Guru?
Also you keep saying that GW2guru is known for post manipulation, well I want to see proof they are manipulating what I linked. In fact what I said is that the population on official forums can be just as bad as or worse than fan sites! If you want to avoid this just like on the official forums you can use the developer tracker to get to the official information you want to see, in essence making the population a null factor. Now how is looking at the developer tracker going to get you to post that are being manipulated, unless you are saying the mods are changing what the Developers wrote. Here is a example of what you can find through the developer tracker: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=667954&postcount=209
I think you misunderstand. Fansites aren't an unreliable source of information for players. They are unreliable to the developers.
Fansites tend to cater to a specific type of fan, very often the more hardcore among them. A casual player may post on an official forum because it's easy to find and he already has an account there. A casual player is likely to not even know of an unofficial site, let alone actually make an account there. Most of the users on GW2G have played GW1, and many of them still play. The majority of GW2 players, however, won't even know anything about GW1. I remember this happening during WoW beta: most players hadn't played a Warcraft game before, and many didn't even know they existed. Players with different backgrounds approach games differently and have different reactions to them. A fansite might not give the proper amount of variety.
There is also the the potential for admin abuse, which can and does happen on most fansites, especially GW2G. Official forums may censor their users, but if they do it themselves, at least they know what was said. If the posts on fansites are deleted before the developers even see them, then they may never know what opinion is truly held.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
I don't see how people can still complain about the lack of an official forum when the devs seem to be so present in GW2guru. Just look at this page. They seem to be enjoying the atmosphere the site brings.
Sure you naysayers can just say that fansite are full of fanboys/fangirls and that they will be the downfall of this game, for not complaining enough. Yet it's these fanboys/fangirls that know the game inside-out (well as much as any non-ANet employee would know), so as soon as some worrying bit of info is released, they are always the most vocal about it. Whereas the casual followers that want an official forum are usually more oblivious about these minor things; so instead of genuine concerns, like the attribute system, you'll get a lot of people from other MMOs wanting the game to be more of what they want (more sandbox or more like WoW).
So I'd prefer things the way they are, even if some of the GW2guru mods may abuse their power. I've been a victim of this and yet I'm still dfending them. Just shows how little an official forum would bring, since they already have an official blog for all the little dev updates.
Geuss what? Official forums aren't a very good indication either. And there are plenty of people who haven't played GW at GW2G. Also, anybody who is seriously interested in becoming a part of the community doesn't have to look very hard to find GW2G. It holds the 4th link on a google search for "Guild Wars 2" and the first 3 links for "Guild Wars 2 forum," not counting the fact that it omits more because they would otherwise dominate the page.
And, honestly, if half the claims about GW2G moderators changing the flow of information and other such insidious actions the forum would be MUCH smaller. You don't keep forum members by stifling what they have to say. Also, as large as GW2G is right now, do you know how much work it would be to change or delete that many posts that might differ from what the moderation staff thinks?
Disagreement Heirarchy
For the arguement against fan forums - Anyone remember Aion Source? Devs/CMs posted there before official forums were made. Was hacked and e-mails and passwords taken, if you did'nt use a junk e-mail account and password which most common players would'nt, then you got scam e-mails in your mailbox.
FFXIV core - beta scamz by a moderator who still mods there I think.
As for the difficulty of censorship on guru, it's just click delete and you're done. That simple. Or if it's too many people being vocal on something you disagree on, merge threads, move it to a dead part of the forum and lock it. I did'nt realize half my posts were being deleted for a long time until I went back through a post "Discussion" looking for my post then through my post history to find half my posts were gone. I'm sure most people don't notice either. I wonder if Anet would remove guru's "Elite fansite" status if they got enough complaints...
The point is is that some of us believe that GW2G and even similar fan forums shouldn't be so much in the limelight and have so much power - because power corrupts, and if they're a monopoly, then it corrupts absolutely. GW2G is just not a nice place in my opinion, but like I said... providing ArenaNet hosts their own services for data-mining, I don't really care whether or not they have an official forum at this point, because I can just hang out here or at IncGamers. The only thing that bothers me is the potential for information manipulation, and no amount of arguing back and forth is going to change my mind on that, because I believe that information manipulation is bad and too many people have seen it happen, even here there are just too many reports for it to not be true.
If you want, I can try and dig out one of those threads that have 30 pages but 20~ actual pages, providing the threads themselves haven't been merged or deleted. But that's actually a handy bug because it shows just how overzealous the moderators can be with deleting.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/how-contact-gw2-devs-in-t15941.html?t=15941
Wanna know something awesome? A dev was the first person to respond on this thread.
Well I guess this is a moot point then, since we know that Arena Net does surveys for data mining.
That would be awesome if the forum was ran by Anet Devs.
I always get a tingly feeling and experience immense joy when my posts on Guild Wars 2 Guru get deleted for no reason at all.
Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
Notice further down the thread that...there is a big fail lol. People can't even send PMs to devs. Perhaps guru doesn't want devs to receive direct raw feedback from players w/out going through their threads/eyes, so that they can present to devs only the information that gurus agree with.
And if you really pay attention to all the posts made, you can see that people have to tip toe just to find a right place to post a question. It's like the users are begging to let their voices be heard while at the mercy of mods who are most likely to delete their question should it be something that a mod doesn't like. The whole atmosphere feels very limiting, tense, and hostile.
That thread alone helped me solidify the view that fan forums are a bad news, and I wish GW2 the best of luck, I'm getting off the GW2 train.
Playing: Darkfall Unholy Wars
Played: Darkfall, EVE, AoC, Ryzom, Ragnarok Online, GW2, PS2, Secret World, WOW, City Of Heroes/Villains, Champion Online.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=673778&postcount=10
Of course they can't PM the devs. The devs would constantly get spammed by a ton of people asking pointless questions and rediculous questions.
If you don't like the game or don't like the fact that their are no official forums so much that you won't play the game then good riddance. I doubt many people would want you playing anyway.
OK what part of Arena Net uses surveys do you not understand? So how is Guru or any fansite influencing guild wars design? Unless you really believe that fan sites are manipulating data on the surveys to get there way! Got to love conspiracy theories!
Amazing idea on Arenanet's part. All it would be is people whining and antagonizing each other - souring the community before the game even releases. Instead they release what they want to show us and let the net discuss it.
I love how they do things - with their game, their vision, their art, and their presentation.
Note: I did not read all 3 pages of this
Anyway, Guild wars, and Guild Wars 2 never had, and never will have any offical forums.. The truth is the comunity took that duity off of them. Guild wars wiki and guild wars guru does a fien job at that, and fyi the devs themselves go to guru and reply to the fans. Thing most people dont realize is that guild wars has such an amazing comunity behind it, (alot less complaning than elsewhere aswell, This of course this is counting out the elite'st pvpers..) They also have radio staions and other things dedicated to the game.. again MADE BY THE FANS! Basicly Anet never had to build them.. Because their comunity already took that into their own hands.. which turned out great!
www.guildwars2guru.com/
wiki.guildwars2.com/
www.bladeradio.com/
(theres more but those are the main 3 areas that i coverd here)
Have you taken part in actual Arena Net surveys or just heard about them after the War in Kryta survey? 5, really? Where was the survey for cash shop, transmutation stones and all the other topics that came up in GW1 or after they release GW2 info? Oh right, there were none because they don't make surveys out the wazoo and wait 2 weeks for someone to sort through the feedback and to allow everyone to fill one out when they can visit forums and see the "Popular opinion" and have CM's post.
The limited survey of your personal information for the GW2 artbook does'nt count. It would be nice if it happened like you said, but really in the history of Guild Wars if they only happened 5 times as you say, then in my years of following the game I must of missed out on 3 of my golden chances to give feedback on the game, unless you count all those times I used the forums in places other than guru.