First, having smoked the Blizz devs during the Beta testing for both Wrath / Cata, coordination, reaction speed, and planning make a huge difference. My team has won numerous games 2000 to 10, 3 to 0, etc. Second, there is a reason to invite top quality pvpers to a beta. Top quality players tend to be famaliar with more classes and learn faster. Now, when it comes to duels, there are those players who could easily beat 99% of players almost 100% of the time regardless of class.
Lesson for the day, good players should beat bad players almost 100% of the time. Otherwise, bad players have no desire to improve.
I think you're very off base here. Balance is key, but this is TEAM balance here, not 1v1 balance. As the developers have said in these PvP interviews they are looking to encourage the right behavior in PvP with team based combat, so one IA who admittedly stealthed behind enemy lines and lone wolfed it will not be conducive to that playstyle.
there are 3 ways to balance pvp:
1) balance each spec around 1v1; each spec has the tools to escape/mitigate burst/CC, self-heal, dish out burst/CC
2) some specs have weaknesses when focused down, but the environment allows for escape/ambushing/mitigation. LoL does it this way with bushes, for example. Global Agenda does it with structures
3) use specific tools for a specific situation. EVE does it with a class-less system and ships designed for different encounters
the only way for games like TOR/WoW to have balance in pvp is to use #1. the combat system theyre using is outdated (still baffles me why BW went this route), and it is unlikely they will ever have sufficient environmental/tactical options because all battles (thus far) seems to take place is large open areas. BW will probably struggle for a long time (if not forever), like Blizz is, to bring a sense of balance to pvp. if you know anything about pvp in MMO's you will know this.
Kind of sounds like what Id expect out of themepark PVP, which is to say the PVE influence of the game will be a detriment to PVP for all the same reasons that have been beaten to death in other themeparks. Its just something you have to live with.
[ALERT] Game Testing Program Scams! | 03.21.2011 , 10:11 AM
It has come to our attention that there are multiple individuals and sites claiming to sell testing accounts, “beta keys,” or other offers of access to our Game Testing Program. All of these offers are false. BioWare is not issuing invites to Game Testing via any method other than those we outline here on SWTOR.com.
We must caution you that these offers are often scams designed to steal your money, credit card information, or identity. While we understand that you are eager to participate in Game Testing, your security is extremely important, and attempting to participate in these offers could put you in very real danger.
Furthermore, the sale of accounts with access to the Game Testing Program is strictly prohibited by the Game Testing Agreement. We closely monitor the activities of all accounts involved in the Game Testing Program, and are quick to notice accounts that change hands. In the event that an account in the Game Testing Program does change ownership, we immediately take action to the fullest extent possible, including permanently banning the account from the Service.
When we send out invites to the Game Testing Program, the first step is receiving an e-mail from no-reply@bioware.swtor.com. After you receive this e-mail, you will also be able to see the invitation and further instructions at www.swtor.com/tester (if you are logged in to your account). You may encounter e-mail scams that indicate you have been invited to the Game Testing Program - please make sure to thoroughly examine the e-mail and don't click any links unless you are sure it is authentic (make sure to expand the information about the sender, and check for spelling errors or other tricks that scammers often use). If you receive an e-mail and are in doubt or are concerned about its validity, please forward your concerns to bwacommunitysupport@bioware.com.
If you discover a scam pretending to offer access to the Game Testing Program, please forward all relevant information to us at bwacommunitysupport@bioware.com. Your security and the security of your fellow community members is important to us, and we appreciate your help.
"Let’s get something out of the way real quick: PvP in Star Wars: The Old Republic is awesome."
Sounds like those Mythic staff have helped out? I liked the pvp in war back then.
New conspiracy theory:
Mythic agreed to help out BW with the PvP portion of TOR. In return, once TOR is released, BW will clean up all the other aspects of WAR.
Lol would be nice, I really liked the pvp in WAR. I fall heavily into the team balance equation myself. Otherwise, everybody ends up too similiar and boring. Hell, even in Borderlands I can be unique.
I think you're very off base here. Balance is key, but this is TEAM balance here, not 1v1 balance. As the developers have said in these PvP interviews they are looking to encourage the right behavior in PvP with team based combat, so one IA who admittedly stealthed behind enemy lines and lone wolfed it will not be conducive to that playstyle.
there are 3 ways to balance pvp:
1) balance each spec around 1v1; each spec has the tools to escape/mitigate burst/CC, self-heal, dish out burst/CC
2) some specs have weaknesses when focused down, but the environment allows for escape/ambushing/mitigation. LoL does it this way with bushes, for example. Global Agenda does it with structures
3) use specific tools for a specific situation. EVE does it with a class-less system and ships designed for different encounters
the only way for games like TOR/WoW to have balance in pvp is to use #1. the combat system theyre using is outdated (still baffles me why BW went this route), and it is unlikely they will ever have sufficient environmental/tactical options because all battles (thus far) seems to take place is large open areas. BW will probably struggle for a long time (if not forever), like Blizz is, to bring a sense of balance to pvp. if you know anything about pvp in MMO's you will know this.
Sorry, don't play WoW and couldn't care less what they're going through, but I've played plenty of other games for PvP, and you are wrong on what GA does to balance PvP. The main focus of PvP in GA is #1 Player Skill #2 Class Tactics and #3 Gear. The environment doesn't mean anything in terms of class balance, only tactical advantage.
The main FEATURE of GA is that it is TEAM-BASED. The game is not meant to be balanced 1v1 because the OBJECTIVES aren't meant for 1v1. Each class has a place and if you aren't doing your job as that class then you are useless.
While EVERY class in SWTOR has CC and ways to get away from a class that is your counterpoint and could likely kill you quickly, the objectives are to work as a team, and BioWare will reward you for playing well balanced, not for calling out players and fighting them 1v1.
While some classes will be able to survive longer and maybe do well as a lone wolf, if they aren't playing to the quest objectives and working alongside the team or at least working towards those objectives for their team, then they aren't playing properly.
I commend you on your article's thoroughness and ability to answer all the questions I typically have reading such topics but which most writers fall short of. You drew me into the match with you, allowing me to see something rare through your eyes. FWIW, up till now my interest in SWTOR has been luke warm at best, SW as a franchise was merely 'meh' to me up to this point, movies and games inspired by them tend to not mix very well for satisfaction purposes, at least not for me. Now, as a result of your article and of course, Bioware's excellent design, has won me over. I'm now looking forward to exploring this game. WAR did the first wave of Tanks being able to do much more than just stand around uselessly and be ignored, well done Bioware, well done indeed.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I am EXTREMELY pleased to hear that BW has come up with some effective PvP translation of tanking skills. I am also glad to hear that the jedi/sith classes are fun and potent.
Lets be honest, after the NGE, the SWG dev team relished having underpowered jedi...Especially the first light jedi builds...low, range limited dps, parry based direct attack defenses that were useless against pvp prevalent AOE attacks, and NO utility to the group, whatsoever, in terms of buffs or group protection.
This was made slightly better, later, with expertise revamps, but nothing compared to what Im reading here...it will be nice to play a jedi/sith in a game that embraces them and doesnt treat them like a red-headed step child that has to be borked as a means of making other, non-jedi, classes more appealing to play...
I know people love to point to WoW and say that Tor's pvp will suffer the same fate. But the differences are night and day:
WoW launched without a pvp system in place. No rewards, xp, battlegrounds, arenas, diminishing returns, etc.
SWTOR is launching with a fully implemented system including warzones, gear, currencies, achievements, diminishing returns, and the option to fully level your character doing pvp exclusively.
I liked the write-up and look forward to purchasing SWTOR, but none-the-less, sounds like Rift; or insert themepark mmo 10v10 shoebox redundant pvp cage-match comparison here.
Of course how they handle CC is different, but the sameness is obvious compared to mainstream rudimentary themeparks. Without much knowledge on the more organic and open game-play environments and value thereof, I would suspect I'd enjoy the journey in SWTOR as I did in Rift, but bail after 2-months of grinding the same battlegrounds repeatedly and same dungeons
"even your peace-loving Jedi Knight will look like a battle-hardened badass when fully decked out in PvP gear."
"At the end of a match players can also award a single commendation to another player on their team that they felt did a good job (no, you can’t award one to yourself)."
"There is also an Unreal Tournament/Quake vibe to the matches"
"PvP combat in The Old Republic felt visceral, fast-paced, and most importantly, tactical."
So this all looked great but you know what...and this may sound bad to some....I am tired of hearing about it. Its like Diablo 3 for me. I don't care about hearing one more thing, just get the product out .
I am sold on buying TOR and giving it a whirl....just get the bloody thing out now. I am an instant gratification kinda guy for sure. I want what I want and I want it now and be damned the hype machine. Get on with it, roll it out, go gold, crap boxes out your bum to retailers ,do what ya gotta do. I have seen enough and I am ready to play. Everything now is like a Charlie Brown teacher to me...wah, wah, wah.
Finaly somone who added ranks in pvp to balance matches... Watching so many teams being unbalanced with good players at one and some horrible players on the other was quite stupid...
The bar idea is actually very good, i wanted to know if they were going to add many comletely contorl removing abilities like stun and fear but with that bar i doubt its gonna be a problem, especially when it can happen often, but if a stun takes a huge chunk of the bar then it wont be problem. Plus it wont encourage 1000vs1 battlegrounds because their cc wont work.
The tanks might be a slight problem though,but it depends on the damage debuff.
Cause there could be two teams with both known players and the high damage dealer waits in the back to avoid getting taunted by the tank, but the tank will simply w8 for him to come closer so he can neutrilise his high dps...
Although it can make some funny 1v1 fights in normal team vs full tank team or some bad results like everyone getting taunted but tanks attacking only 1 enemy per time
The 1v1 aspect seems to be so freaking good, i cnat w8 xD, while team matches will generally focus heavily on tanks. Seems game is balanced with brains which is a very good thing if you look at expirience(rift)
The combat will be far more tactical and different that usual mmo so its not so similar
1)How long were the matches taking? Were they relatively quick, and did it "feel" about right.
2) The 21-0 comment. Honestly did the Marauder feel overpowered, were the Dev's cutting you guys a break? Did anyone else come close to that? Or was it the result of working with a good team?
1. 10-15 minutes
2. It didn't feel overpowered. We had just come off playing together for a full day and tackled a lot of heroic content which helped us in PvP as we knew what abilities to look for and how to use them. It also helped that at least three of us playing were all avid PvPers. We were just better than they were.
The Marauder was certainly strong, but as I noted in the preview it wasn't like I was fighting alone most of the time. We'd call out targets and focus them down. In fact, just about every team fight we'd set target priorities and take them out. We'd often set targets to be CC'd out and targets to be killed immediately, all the communication and careful use of CC helped us get the upper hand. While the fact we sweeped them out makes it sound like they did terrible, the individual skirmishes were always fun and most of the time did not feel one sided.
I wont tell you that is what I was hoping to hear.....okay...it definitely is.
Glad to hear you really enjoyed it, and glad to hear that coordination let you guys put a whoopin' on the other team!
Some great stuff. Glad they finally gave a chance for information to be released about PvP. It's hard sometimes to not go and slap people and correct them about things in game.
And that poor guy that got a "beta key". Prolly just lost his wow account among other things because of that lol.
I think I'll just wait for GW2. I just can't see this pvp being balanced. And I'm not a fan of the Warhammer tank system.
Ah, I think that is one of the best systems out there for tanks. Rather then trying to give tanks damage in addition to their ability to take very little damage, they are letting them tank. Guard a person for reduced damage (so long as they are close like in war), and "taunts" that cause the target to do less damage to anyone but the tank are AMAZING tools for PvP.
As for the PvP GW and WoW already have the same basic concept. "Builds" / "Arena team makeup" will beat other builds/makeups easily because of how they work.
The PvP in Warhammer, at least, was nothing about builds. It was about playing as a team. With certain builds or makeups, you can almost afk to a win in GW/WoW. You aren't going to win "turn in most relics" in HoH without at least two Dervs and someone to slow theirs. Don't get me wrong, the high end arena of WoW is a different story because of the skill level of players. But I expect GW2 to be very similar to GW in that regard. "Builds" will be what wins games more so then skill, except maybe at a very high skill level. Great! You can change your skills on the fly in GW2 to maybe combat their build. And they change theirs right back.
All MMOs are always trying to tweak balance. That is just how it is. Players look for the easiest way to kill/heal/protect/etc in PvP and what works the best together. Unless you think GW/WoW/War never changed anything in relation to PvP skills after release because it was perfectly balanced? :P
I was interested in the power ups. I have often hoped for other games to implement them at some point. I was disappointed to hear there will be a queue system, rather than a dedicated server type system for matchmaking. Ah well, can't have it all i guess
A good pre-made group should always beat a PUG.
Not sure I agree with that. Being part of a good PuG that can find a way to beat a good pre-made would be more exhilirating, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Comments
First, having smoked the Blizz devs during the Beta testing for both Wrath / Cata, coordination, reaction speed, and planning make a huge difference. My team has won numerous games 2000 to 10, 3 to 0, etc. Second, there is a reason to invite top quality pvpers to a beta. Top quality players tend to be famaliar with more classes and learn faster. Now, when it comes to duels, there are those players who could easily beat 99% of players almost 100% of the time regardless of class.
Lesson for the day, good players should beat bad players almost 100% of the time. Otherwise, bad players have no desire to improve.
Sounds as fishy as a raw tuna on the hood of your car on a sunny afternoon.
My brand new bloggity blog.
there are 3 ways to balance pvp:
1) balance each spec around 1v1; each spec has the tools to escape/mitigate burst/CC, self-heal, dish out burst/CC
2) some specs have weaknesses when focused down, but the environment allows for escape/ambushing/mitigation. LoL does it this way with bushes, for example. Global Agenda does it with structures
3) use specific tools for a specific situation. EVE does it with a class-less system and ships designed for different encounters
the only way for games like TOR/WoW to have balance in pvp is to use #1. the combat system theyre using is outdated (still baffles me why BW went this route), and it is unlikely they will ever have sufficient environmental/tactical options because all battles (thus far) seems to take place is large open areas. BW will probably struggle for a long time (if not forever), like Blizz is, to bring a sense of balance to pvp. if you know anything about pvp in MMO's you will know this.
Kind of sounds like what Id expect out of themepark PVP, which is to say the PVE influence of the game will be a detriment to PVP for all the same reasons that have been beaten to death in other themeparks. Its just something you have to live with.
yea considering this post i would be fishy of it too:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=283091
AllisonBerryman
Joined: Oct 2010
[ALERT] Game Testing Program Scams! | 03.21.2011 , 10:11 AM
It has come to our attention that there are multiple individuals and sites claiming to sell testing accounts, “beta keys,” or other offers of access to our Game Testing Program. All of these offers are false. BioWare is not issuing invites to Game Testing via any method other than those we outline here on SWTOR.com.
We must caution you that these offers are often scams designed to steal your money, credit card information, or identity. While we understand that you are eager to participate in Game Testing, your security is extremely important, and attempting to participate in these offers could put you in very real danger.
Furthermore, the sale of accounts with access to the Game Testing Program is strictly prohibited by the Game Testing Agreement. We closely monitor the activities of all accounts involved in the Game Testing Program, and are quick to notice accounts that change hands. In the event that an account in the Game Testing Program does change ownership, we immediately take action to the fullest extent possible, including permanently banning the account from the Service.
When we send out invites to the Game Testing Program, the first step is receiving an e-mail from no-reply@bioware.swtor.com. After you receive this e-mail, you will also be able to see the invitation and further instructions at www.swtor.com/tester (if you are logged in to your account). You may encounter e-mail scams that indicate you have been invited to the Game Testing Program - please make sure to thoroughly examine the e-mail and don't click any links unless you are sure it is authentic (make sure to expand the information about the sender, and check for spelling errors or other tricks that scammers often use). If you receive an e-mail and are in doubt or are concerned about its validity, please forward your concerns to bwacommunitysupport@bioware.com.
If you discover a scam pretending to offer access to the Game Testing Program, please forward all relevant information to us at bwacommunitysupport@bioware.com. Your security and the security of your fellow community members is important to us, and we appreciate your help.
New conspiracy theory:
Mythic agreed to help out BW with the PvP portion of TOR. In return, once TOR is released, BW will clean up all the other aspects of WAR.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Lol would be nice, I really liked the pvp in WAR. I fall heavily into the team balance equation myself. Otherwise, everybody ends up too similiar and boring. Hell, even in Borderlands I can be unique.
Sorry, don't play WoW and couldn't care less what they're going through, but I've played plenty of other games for PvP, and you are wrong on what GA does to balance PvP. The main focus of PvP in GA is #1 Player Skill #2 Class Tactics and #3 Gear. The environment doesn't mean anything in terms of class balance, only tactical advantage.
The main FEATURE of GA is that it is TEAM-BASED. The game is not meant to be balanced 1v1 because the OBJECTIVES aren't meant for 1v1. Each class has a place and if you aren't doing your job as that class then you are useless.
While EVERY class in SWTOR has CC and ways to get away from a class that is your counterpoint and could likely kill you quickly, the objectives are to work as a team, and BioWare will reward you for playing well balanced, not for calling out players and fighting them 1v1.
While some classes will be able to survive longer and maybe do well as a lone wolf, if they aren't playing to the quest objectives and working alongside the team or at least working towards those objectives for their team, then they aren't playing properly.
Mr Bitton;
I commend you on your article's thoroughness and ability to answer all the questions I typically have reading such topics but which most writers fall short of. You drew me into the match with you, allowing me to see something rare through your eyes. FWIW, up till now my interest in SWTOR has been luke warm at best, SW as a franchise was merely 'meh' to me up to this point, movies and games inspired by them tend to not mix very well for satisfaction purposes, at least not for me. Now, as a result of your article and of course, Bioware's excellent design, has won me over. I'm now looking forward to exploring this game. WAR did the first wave of Tanks being able to do much more than just stand around uselessly and be ignored, well done Bioware, well done indeed.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I am EXTREMELY pleased to hear that BW has come up with some effective PvP translation of tanking skills. I am also glad to hear that the jedi/sith classes are fun and potent.
Lets be honest, after the NGE, the SWG dev team relished having underpowered jedi...Especially the first light jedi builds...low, range limited dps, parry based direct attack defenses that were useless against pvp prevalent AOE attacks, and NO utility to the group, whatsoever, in terms of buffs or group protection.
This was made slightly better, later, with expertise revamps, but nothing compared to what Im reading here...it will be nice to play a jedi/sith in a game that embraces them and doesnt treat them like a red-headed step child that has to be borked as a means of making other, non-jedi, classes more appealing to play...
I know people love to point to WoW and say that Tor's pvp will suffer the same fate. But the differences are night and day:
WoW launched without a pvp system in place. No rewards, xp, battlegrounds, arenas, diminishing returns, etc.
SWTOR is launching with a fully implemented system including warzones, gear, currencies, achievements, diminishing returns, and the option to fully level your character doing pvp exclusively.
I liked the write-up and look forward to purchasing SWTOR, but none-the-less, sounds like Rift; or insert themepark mmo 10v10 shoebox redundant pvp cage-match comparison here.
Of course how they handle CC is different, but the sameness is obvious compared to mainstream rudimentary themeparks. Without much knowledge on the more organic and open game-play environments and value thereof, I would suspect I'd enjoy the journey in SWTOR as I did in Rift, but bail after 2-months of grinding the same battlegrounds repeatedly and same dungeons
repeatedly; no lasting nutrition.
We'll see.
here are my favorite bits:
"even your peace-loving Jedi Knight will look like a battle-hardened badass when fully decked out in PvP gear."
"At the end of a match players can also award a single commendation to another player on their team that they felt did a good job (no, you can’t award one to yourself)."
"There is also an Unreal Tournament/Quake vibe to the matches"
"PvP combat in The Old Republic felt visceral, fast-paced, and most importantly, tactical."
So this all looked great but you know what...and this may sound bad to some....I am tired of hearing about it. Its like Diablo 3 for me. I don't care about hearing one more thing, just get the product out .
I am sold on buying TOR and giving it a whirl....just get the bloody thing out now. I am an instant gratification kinda guy for sure. I want what I want and I want it now and be damned the hype machine. Get on with it, roll it out, go gold, crap boxes out your bum to retailers ,do what ya gotta do. I have seen enough and I am ready to play. Everything now is like a Charlie Brown teacher to me...wah, wah, wah.
Finaly somone who added ranks in pvp to balance matches... Watching so many teams being unbalanced with good players at one and some horrible players on the other was quite stupid...
The bar idea is actually very good, i wanted to know if they were going to add many comletely contorl removing abilities like stun and fear but with that bar i doubt its gonna be a problem, especially when it can happen often, but if a stun takes a huge chunk of the bar then it wont be problem. Plus it wont encourage 1000vs1 battlegrounds because their cc wont work.
The tanks might be a slight problem though,but it depends on the damage debuff.
Cause there could be two teams with both known players and the high damage dealer waits in the back to avoid getting taunted by the tank, but the tank will simply w8 for him to come closer so he can neutrilise his high dps...
Although it can make some funny 1v1 fights in normal team vs full tank team or some bad results like everyone getting taunted but tanks attacking only 1 enemy per time
The 1v1 aspect seems to be so freaking good, i cnat w8 xD, while team matches will generally focus heavily on tanks. Seems game is balanced with brains which is a very good thing if you look at expirience(rift)
The combat will be far more tactical and different that usual mmo so its not so similar
I hope that Bioware would make the same good decision
lol, I dont think the sith will have any shortage of eager players....
I wont tell you that is what I was hoping to hear.....okay...it definitely is.
Glad to hear you really enjoyed it, and glad to hear that coordination let you guys put a whoopin' on the other team!
Some great stuff. Glad they finally gave a chance for information to be released about PvP. It's hard sometimes to not go and slap people and correct them about things in game.
And that poor guy that got a "beta key". Prolly just lost his wow account among other things because of that lol.
I think I'll just wait for GW2. I just can't see this pvp being balanced. And I'm not a fan of the Warhammer tank system.
Ah, I think that is one of the best systems out there for tanks. Rather then trying to give tanks damage in addition to their ability to take very little damage, they are letting them tank. Guard a person for reduced damage (so long as they are close like in war), and "taunts" that cause the target to do less damage to anyone but the tank are AMAZING tools for PvP.
As for the PvP GW and WoW already have the same basic concept. "Builds" / "Arena team makeup" will beat other builds/makeups easily because of how they work.
The PvP in Warhammer, at least, was nothing about builds. It was about playing as a team. With certain builds or makeups, you can almost afk to a win in GW/WoW. You aren't going to win "turn in most relics" in HoH without at least two Dervs and someone to slow theirs. Don't get me wrong, the high end arena of WoW is a different story because of the skill level of players. But I expect GW2 to be very similar to GW in that regard. "Builds" will be what wins games more so then skill, except maybe at a very high skill level. Great! You can change your skills on the fly in GW2 to maybe combat their build. And they change theirs right back.
All MMOs are always trying to tweak balance. That is just how it is. Players look for the easiest way to kill/heal/protect/etc in PvP and what works the best together. Unless you think GW/WoW/War never changed anything in relation to PvP skills after release because it was perfectly balanced? :P
sounds fun, but I still wonder about world PVP, and a dueling system, since I'm not a huge fan of the "battlegrounds" type PVP.
Maybe that's been addressed, and I missed it, or read it while half asleep
I was interested in the power ups. I have often hoped for other games to implement them at some point. I was disappointed to hear there will be a queue system, rather than a dedicated server type system for matchmaking. Ah well, can't have it all i guess
Not sure I agree with that. Being part of a good PuG that can find a way to beat a good pre-made would be more exhilirating, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
They aren't really discussing that in-depth yet.