He was the one who got assaulted on his credibility, in an ad hominem attack btw: comments directed towards him as a person, not towards his arguments.
Can you show me one of these "ad hominem attacks" ?
Casey Schreiner from G4 (The MMO Report): "I think that Guild Wars2 is going to be the next big MMO. I think it's gonna beat SWTOR. I think it's gonna be a better game than SWToR... I think with SWToR you're gonna see a lot of people sign up initially,, they're gonna find out that it's a well made game in SW universe that doesn't offer a lot of innovation, and when they see what GW is doing they're gonna be shocked."
wow really yay who cares tor when it releases will be awsome i dont care what this guy says. nice i like the post beat a game that never came out yet and you determine the outcome :O now tell me my furture please:O. your just another troll moving on
The few aimed abilties which work just like in Dcuo when a mob would fire a slowtraveling ball graphic at you and you had to dodge not to get hit.
While the rest of the abilites are all auto target and auto hitting like a homing missle.
The rest of the abilities are either close-ranged or ground targeted. The missile comparison hardly works for that.
My point is to say what innovation? Alot of folks here keep saying innovation over and over without giving any details and where it is different. The truth is Guild wars 2 uses a Small action bar combat system exactly like the one in use in DCUO.
AOE, autohoming attack or a slow moving range attack that can be dodge just like in DCUO.
OK, phrased like that, I can agree with it. "Innovation" is massivly overused when people talk about GW2, where "Iteration" or "Improvement" would serve much better.
wow really yay who cares tor when it releases will be awsome i dont care what this guy says.
Funny enough, that is exactly what he says. He just goes on to say that he expects GW2 to be even more awesome, which some people seem to take offense with.
This is almost as it was back in 2004 when both WOW and EQ2 were about to launch simulataneously.
But back then there wasn't a dominate King of the Hill MMORPG (at least not before WoW launched).
Hmm you're right about MMORPG didnt become "mainstream" untill WOW. There were titles, however, that new games would compare against. EQ being one of the biggest ones. Nobody talked about EQ killers, though. That wouldnt make any sense at the time. It would be more correct (as you point out) that the MMORPG market was more diversified back then.
Notice that I didnt use the term "wow killer" in my post. I was talking about a new "queen"
He was the one who got assaulted on his credibility, in an ad hominem attack btw: comments directed towards him as a person, not towards his arguments.
Can you show me one of these "ad hominem attacks" ?
This is the last post I'm going to devote to this specific discussion, because, really, it takes 1 minute to look back in the thread to see for yourself what I was talking about
Here it goes:
Originally posted by Snaylor47
Originally posted by Zeroxin
Originally posted by Snaylor47
Originally posted by Zeroxin
Originally posted by Snaylor47
What I dislike about this is that people seem to think his opinion mattered.
Hell I was just like him, I used to be extremly hyped and amped for GW2 then I played it and found it to be the same tap targeting crap I played in WoW only with a dodge button and fewer skills. It was the exact same problem I hate with the first one (Minus the Dodge button) and at this point I don't care if its open worlds or not.
Lol, you know why I know you haven't played this game? Firstly, this is the FIRST TIME I've ever read that you've played the game. Secondly, there isn't any tab targeting. Please try to be a better liar.
Firstly, Wow you mean just because I now post that I played a game is proof that I lied?
Second, Figure of speach.
Please try to be a better troll next time
I'm sorry if I sounded like a troll but c'mon now. Why haven't I read that you've played this game in..... any other thread?
Because I am not an MMO nerd and have better things to do with my time?
Also played TOR and didn't write a review on it and I am half in love with that game.
Thousands of other people played GW2 and TOR and conventions and what not, and they didn't post reveiws.
To summarize:
Snaylor posts his own (subjective) impressions of the time that he played GW2.
Instead of his arguments being discussed, he receives an ad hominem attack, directed to his person instead of his arguments, by Zeroxin who accuses him of lying.
Snaylor explains himself some more, even if he shouldn't need to - if he played it and didn't like it, well that's his opinion, not everybody likes the same things.
Then you resort to attacking him on the person.
That's it. Looks pretty clear to me. The guy got first attacked by 1 person, getting accused of lying, he responds with giving a solid, reasonable argument - which ppl don't have to agree with, but the arguments themselves are sensible - and then a 2nd person attacks him, again without him having attacked or insulted either of his attackers before.
Anyway, that's it. Do with this info whatever you like, I feel no need to continue this specific discussion by rehashing the arguments I made all over again, cya around
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
While Im mainly looking forward to GW2 atm, I have to say that I find these comparisons quite useless. I expect both to sell loads of boxes and also that SWTOR will retain loads of subs. Also that many players will enjoy both these games because they use different payment models. Im not sure how that only makes one of them win or if that question is even relevant (unless you want to discuss success from a business perspective).
I find it more interesting what makes ppl act like sportsfans and start comparing two MMO's as if they are two sportsteams. Does Casey enjoy GW2 better if SWTOR cant retain many subs and therefor 'loses' ?
OR and conventions and what not, and they didn't post reveiws.
To summarize:
Snaylor posts his own (subjective) impressions of the time that he played GW2.
Instead of his arguments being discussed, he receives an ad hominem attack, directed to his person instead of his arguments, by Zeroxin who accuses him of lying.
Snaylor explains himself some more, even if he shouldn't need to - if he played it and didn't like it, well that's his opinion, not everybody likes the same things.
Then you resort to attacking him on the person.
That's it. Looks pretty clear to me. The guy got first attacked by 1 person, getting accused of lying, he responds with giving a solid, reasonable argument - which ppl don't have to agree with, but the arguments themselves are sensible - and then a 2nd person attacks him, again without him having attacked or insulted either of his attackers before.
Anyway, that's it. Do with this info whatever you like, I feel no need to continue this specific discussion by rehashing the arguments I made all over again, cya around
That's not an "Argumentum ad hominem". I asked you to check if you know what it is because huge majority of people who use the term on the internet don't.
I find it more interesting what makes ppl act like sportsfans and start comparing two MMO's as if they are two sportsteams. Does Casey enjoy GW2 better if SWTOR cant retain many subs and therefor 'loses' ?
Actually, Casey still thinks SW:ToR is going to make a ton of money. It's just he now seems to think GW2 has the potential to be even more successful, using some metric he hasn't bothered to reveal.
He thinks both games will do incredible, and that there's a strong possibility neither will manage to reach WoW status despite that.
It's like nobody actually watched the video to see the guy isn't completely crazy and biased towards one game.
I find it more interesting what makes ppl act like sportsfans and start comparing two MMO's as if they are two sportsteams. Does Casey enjoy GW2 better if SWTOR cant retain many subs and therefor 'loses' ?
Actually, Casey still thinks SW:ToR is going to make a ton of money. It's just he now seems to think GW2 has the potential to be even more successful, using some metric he hasn't bothered to reveal.
He thinks both games will do incredible, and that there's a strong possibility neither will manage to reach WoW status despite that.
It's like nobody actually watched the video to see the guy isn't completely crazy and biased towards one game.
Im glad that I dont have to watch it then
I just dont understand how one MMO beats the other. They arent even in the same match because those companies have their own private financial expectations. They can only beat themselves.
Because I am not an MMO nerd and have better things to do with my time?
Also played TOR and didn't write a review on it and I am half in love with that game.
Thousands of other people played GW2 and TOR and conventions and what not, and they didn't post reveiws.
To summarize:
Snaylor posts his own (subjective) impressions of the time that he played GW2.
Instead of his arguments being discussed, he receives an ad hominem attack, directed to his person instead of his arguments, by Zeroxin who accuses him of lying.
Snaylor explains himself some more, even if he shouldn't need to - if he played it and didn't like it, well that's his opinion, not everybody likes the same things.
Then you resort to attacking him on the person.
That's it. Looks pretty clear to me. The guy got first attacked by 1 person, getting accused of lying, he responds with giving a solid, reasonable argument - which ppl don't have to agree with, but the arguments themselves are sensible - and then a 2nd person attacks him, again without him having attacked or insulted either of his attackers before.
Anyway, that's it. Do with this info whatever you like, I feel no need to continue this specific discussion by rehashing the arguments I made all over again, cya around
Hey I just don't like people changing face just so people can listen to them more. He's never mentioned the fact that he has played this game in any other thread before with this kind of topic or even at the beginning of the thread and then all of a sudden he's played the game? It might have sounded like I attacked him but I guess that's just the side-effect of me thinking he is lying.
While Im mainly looking forward to GW2 atm, I have to say that I find these comparisons quite useless. I expect both to sell loads of boxes and also that SWTOR will retain loads of subs. Also that many players will enjoy both these games because they use different payment models. Im not sure how that only makes one of them win or if that question is even relevant (unless you want to discuss success from a business perspective).
I find it more interesting what makes ppl act like sportsfans and start comparing two MMO's as if they are two sportsteams. Does Casey enjoy GW2 better if SWTOR cant retain many subs and therefor 'loses' ?
No. He simply enjoyed the game he played in that weekend more than SW:TOR.
There were no flamewars until the news reached this forum.
I find it more interesting what makes ppl act like sportsfans and start comparing two MMO's as if they are two sportsteams. Does Casey enjoy GW2 better if SWTOR cant retain many subs and therefor 'loses' ?
Because it's human nature and humans are humans
There are people who need to be able to say 'my game is better/bigger than yours' or to epeen around or who feel the dedication towards a game on the level of passion of a sportsteam supporter, choosing 1 team they elevate to their favorite position and scorn and trashtalk other sportsteams. That's part of their hobby, it heightens the fun they have with it for them. The 'only one team can win the league championship' kind of thinking. Very common, actually.
Of course, you also have people who say 'but I love football/basketball/soccer in general as a whole and I am fan of several teams and I don't care which one wins the league as long as the games are great entertainment to watch'. But, that's usually a smaller, less vocal group
Originally posted by Verterdegete
That's not an "Argumentum ad hominem". I asked you to check if you know what it is because huge majority of people who use the term on the internet don't.
Sigh. There you go again, continuing to do the same. 'checking if I know what ad hominem means', really? That's sidetracking what the topic was about and another personally directed attack, implying as if the conversation is about whether I know what 'ad hominem' means or not. It's a dirty tactic, it seems like you're the kind of person who likes insulting other posters and attacking their credibility instead of debating in a reasonable, sensible manner, a clear case of someone who looks up conflict and flamewars and bathes in it, your arguments clearly can't be trusted since they lack reason and are only intended to flamebait
... was that ad hominem enough for you?
Snaylor's 'participating in flamewars on an MMO forum' as you said has nothing to do with his playing GW2 and not liking it, nor with his arguments that it makes no sense why he should feel obliged to post about his gameplay impressions before, as a lot of other people didn't post their gameplay impressions as well. Nope, your attacking him (your words) with the comment that he 'participated in flamewars on an MMO forum' was a derailing and attack on his credibility, an ad hominem attack directed towards his person, not his arguments.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I just dont understand how one MMO beats the other. They arent even in the same match because those companies have their own private financial expectations. They can only beat themselves.
You can tell by whichever game has the most insufferably smug fans in 3 years.
'Oh yeah, GW2/SWToR? I guess people might play that. When they're not busy being awesome and playing the MOST POPULAR AND BEST MMO.'
So in a few years, we'll check to see which fans are angry jerks, and which ones are smug jerks. The smug ones won.
While Im mainly looking forward to GW2 atm, I have to say that I find these comparisons quite useless. I expect both to sell loads of boxes and also that SWTOR will retain loads of subs. Also that many players will enjoy both these games because they use different payment models. Im not sure how that only makes one of them win or if that question is even relevant (unless you want to discuss success from a business perspective).
I find it more interesting what makes ppl act like sportsfans and start comparing two MMO's as if they are two sportsteams. Does Casey enjoy GW2 better if SWTOR cant retain many subs and therefor 'loses' ?
No. He simply enjoyed the game he played in that weekend more than SW:TOR.
There were no flamewars until the news reached this forum.
Which is exact reason why it reached this forum - to start flamewar . And by my purely subjective opinion gw2 will own SW:TOR hard :P.
While Im mainly looking forward to GW2 atm, I have to say that I find these comparisons quite useless. I expect both to sell loads of boxes and also that SWTOR will retain loads of subs. Also that many players will enjoy both these games because they use different payment models. Im not sure how that only makes one of them win or if that question is even relevant (unless you want to discuss success from a business perspective).
I find it more interesting what makes ppl act like sportsfans and start comparing two MMO's as if they are two sportsteams. Does Casey enjoy GW2 better if SWTOR cant retain many subs and therefor 'loses' ?
No. He simply enjoyed the game he played in that weekend more than SW:TOR.
There were no flamewars until the news reached this forum.
So he says this : ""I think that Guild Wars2 is going to be the next big MMO. I think it's gonna beat SWTOR. I think it's gonna be a better game than SWToR.. " but actually means to say that he simply liked GW2 more then SWTOR Why cant he just say so?
I guess we'll have to base it on how many people we see hanging around in hubs and around the game world. I can tell there are more people playing GW1 right now than there were a year ago.
That's actually untrue. As far as can be determined there are less people playing GW than a year ago, if player activity tools like XFire are any indication.
If you say there are more, then I'd like to see what proof you have of this or some source link. I feel there was a peak around the celebration days last year and with the HoM thing, but after that it felt to me like a lot of people became less active again and slowly dwindled away.
I have no proof of any sort, I just assumed that from standing in the hubs and PvP areas but like the other poster said; I'm in no way accurate.
I just dont understand how one MMO beats the other. They arent even in the same match because those companies have their own private financial expectations. They can only beat themselves.
You can tell by whichever game has the most insufferably smug fans in 3 years.
'Oh yeah, GW2/SWToR? I guess people might play that. When they're not busy being awesome and playing the MOST POPULAR AND BEST MMO.'
So in a few years, we'll check to see which fans are angry jerks, and which ones are smug jerks. The smug ones won.
Didnt EVE Online win that award already? So it should be about which of the two can beat EVE Online.
While Im mainly looking forward to GW2 atm, I have to say that I find these comparisons quite useless. I expect both to sell loads of boxes and also that SWTOR will retain loads of subs. Also that many players will enjoy both these games because they use different payment models. Im not sure how that only makes one of them win or if that question is even relevant (unless you want to discuss success from a business perspective).
I find it more interesting what makes ppl act like sportsfans and start comparing two MMO's as if they are two sportsteams. Does Casey enjoy GW2 better if SWTOR cant retain many subs and therefor 'loses' ?
No. He simply enjoyed the game he played in that weekend more than SW:TOR.
There were no flamewars until the news reached this forum.
So he says this : ""I think that Guild Wars2 is going to be the next big MMO. I think it's gonna beat SWTOR. I think it's gonna be a better game than SWToR.. " but actually means to say that he simply liked GW2 more then SWTOR Why cant he just say so?
Guild Wars 2 had not received much attention from G4tv until recently, so I think he just said it to show that they will give more attention to Guild Wars 2 than before. Because they believe that Guild Wars 2 will be a big player.
Didnt EVE Online win that award already? So it should be about which of the two can beat EVE Online
Sorry, that's like... indy-smug. It's a different sort of smug. That's 'I'm part of the special elite' kind of smug you get from a fan of Indy music, and I was talking about the 'I'm the best because you don't matter' sort of... American smug.
So, once I bought GW1 and played it for a while. Then I started playing Vanguard for a while. I also played EQ2, SWG, Fallen Earth, EVE Online and probably more then I care to remember. In between and during some I played more GW1, because it doesnt need a sub and is therefore easy to go back to.
Now then, you MMO fans, tell me who won?
EDIT : This is a genuine question, because I have no clue myself who won.
While Im mainly looking forward to GW2 atm, I have to say that I find these comparisons quite useless. I expect both to sell loads of boxes and also that SWTOR will retain loads of subs. Also that many players will enjoy both these games because they use different payment models. Im not sure how that only makes one of them win or if that question is even relevant (unless you want to discuss success from a business perspective).
I find it more interesting what makes ppl act like sportsfans and start comparing two MMO's as if they are two sportsteams. Does Casey enjoy GW2 better if SWTOR cant retain many subs and therefor 'loses' ?
Some people tends to get competetive over anything. But you really should have actually watched the vid before commenting.
And no, I don't expect any of them to be pay2win.
I do expect EA owned Bioware to sell content as DLC like they done lately in single player games. Items with stats however is another thing and would be very stupid of them, I don't think they are stupid.
Guildwars 2 will probably not sell items with stats but even if they do it wont matter much, since GW2 isn't based on gear and all gear of the same level have about the same powerlevel.
Pay2win only work in games similar to Wow and EQ where gear actually matters.
Comments
Can you show me one of these "ad hominem attacks" ?
wow really yay who cares tor when it releases will be awsome i dont care what this guy says. nice i like the post beat a game that never came out yet and you determine the outcome :O now tell me my furture please:O. your just another troll moving on
.....
OK, phrased like that, I can agree with it. "Innovation" is massivly overused when people talk about GW2, where "Iteration" or "Improvement" would serve much better.
G4 is soon to be out of business.
But back then there wasn't a dominate King of the Hill MMORPG (at least not before WoW launched).
Funny enough, that is exactly what he says. He just goes on to say that he expects GW2 to be even more awesome, which some people seem to take offense with.
Hmm you're right about MMORPG didnt become "mainstream" untill WOW. There were titles, however, that new games would compare against. EQ being one of the biggest ones. Nobody talked about EQ killers, though. That wouldnt make any sense at the time. It would be more correct (as you point out) that the MMORPG market was more diversified back then.
Notice that I didnt use the term "wow killer" in my post. I was talking about a new "queen"
Damn Wow and its cheap graphics.
This is the last post I'm going to devote to this specific discussion, because, really, it takes 1 minute to look back in the thread to see for yourself what I was talking about
Here it goes:
To summarize:
Snaylor posts his own (subjective) impressions of the time that he played GW2.
Instead of his arguments being discussed, he receives an ad hominem attack, directed to his person instead of his arguments, by Zeroxin who accuses him of lying.
Snaylor explains himself some more, even if he shouldn't need to - if he played it and didn't like it, well that's his opinion, not everybody likes the same things.
Then you resort to attacking him on the person.
That's it. Looks pretty clear to me. The guy got first attacked by 1 person, getting accused of lying, he responds with giving a solid, reasonable argument - which ppl don't have to agree with, but the arguments themselves are sensible - and then a 2nd person attacks him, again without him having attacked or insulted either of his attackers before.
Anyway, that's it. Do with this info whatever you like, I feel no need to continue this specific discussion by rehashing the arguments I made all over again, cya around
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
While Im mainly looking forward to GW2 atm, I have to say that I find these comparisons quite useless. I expect both to sell loads of boxes and also that SWTOR will retain loads of subs. Also that many players will enjoy both these games because they use different payment models. Im not sure how that only makes one of them win or if that question is even relevant (unless you want to discuss success from a business perspective).
I find it more interesting what makes ppl act like sportsfans and start comparing two MMO's as if they are two sportsteams. Does Casey enjoy GW2 better if SWTOR cant retain many subs and therefor 'loses' ?
That's not an "Argumentum ad hominem". I asked you to check if you know what it is because huge majority of people who use the term on the internet don't.
Actually, Casey still thinks SW:ToR is going to make a ton of money. It's just he now seems to think GW2 has the potential to be even more successful, using some metric he hasn't bothered to reveal.
He thinks both games will do incredible, and that there's a strong possibility neither will manage to reach WoW status despite that.
It's like nobody actually watched the video to see the guy isn't completely crazy and biased towards one game.
Im glad that I dont have to watch it then
I just dont understand how one MMO beats the other. They arent even in the same match because those companies have their own private financial expectations. They can only beat themselves.
Hey I just don't like people changing face just so people can listen to them more. He's never mentioned the fact that he has played this game in any other thread before with this kind of topic or even at the beginning of the thread and then all of a sudden he's played the game? It might have sounded like I attacked him but I guess that's just the side-effect of me thinking he is lying.
This is not a game.
No. He simply enjoyed the game he played in that weekend more than SW:TOR.
There were no flamewars until the news reached this forum.
Because it's human nature and humans are humans
There are people who need to be able to say 'my game is better/bigger than yours' or to epeen around or who feel the dedication towards a game on the level of passion of a sportsteam supporter, choosing 1 team they elevate to their favorite position and scorn and trashtalk other sportsteams. That's part of their hobby, it heightens the fun they have with it for them. The 'only one team can win the league championship' kind of thinking. Very common, actually.
Of course, you also have people who say 'but I love football/basketball/soccer in general as a whole and I am fan of several teams and I don't care which one wins the league as long as the games are great entertainment to watch'. But, that's usually a smaller, less vocal group
Sigh. There you go again, continuing to do the same. 'checking if I know what ad hominem means', really? That's sidetracking what the topic was about and another personally directed attack, implying as if the conversation is about whether I know what 'ad hominem' means or not. It's a dirty tactic, it seems like you're the kind of person who likes insulting other posters and attacking their credibility instead of debating in a reasonable, sensible manner, a clear case of someone who looks up conflict and flamewars and bathes in it, your arguments clearly can't be trusted since they lack reason and are only intended to flamebait
... was that ad hominem enough for you?
Snaylor's 'participating in flamewars on an MMO forum' as you said has nothing to do with his playing GW2 and not liking it, nor with his arguments that it makes no sense why he should feel obliged to post about his gameplay impressions before, as a lot of other people didn't post their gameplay impressions as well. Nope, your attacking him (your words) with the comment that he 'participated in flamewars on an MMO forum' was a derailing and attack on his credibility, an ad hominem attack directed towards his person, not his arguments.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You can tell by whichever game has the most insufferably smug fans in 3 years.
'Oh yeah, GW2/SWToR? I guess people might play that. When they're not busy being awesome and playing the MOST POPULAR AND BEST MMO.'
So in a few years, we'll check to see which fans are angry jerks, and which ones are smug jerks. The smug ones won.
Which is exact reason why it reached this forum - to start flamewar
. And by my purely subjective opinion gw2 will own SW:TOR hard :P.
So he says this : ""I think that Guild Wars2 is going to be the next big MMO. I think it's gonna beat SWTOR. I think it's gonna be a better game than SWToR.. " but actually means to say that he simply liked GW2 more then SWTOR
Why cant he just say so?
I have no proof of any sort, I just assumed that from standing in the hubs and PvP areas but like the other poster said; I'm in no way accurate.
This is not a game.
Didnt EVE Online win that award already?
So it should be about which of the two can beat EVE Online.
Guild Wars 2 had not received much attention from G4tv until recently, so I think he just said it to show that they will give more attention to Guild Wars 2 than before. Because they believe that Guild Wars 2 will be a big player.
(No offense to people from the US.
)
So, once I bought GW1 and played it for a while. Then I started playing Vanguard for a while. I also played EQ2, SWG, Fallen Earth, EVE Online and probably more then I care to remember. In between and during some I played more GW1, because it doesnt need a sub and is therefore easy to go back to.
Now then, you MMO fans, tell me who won?
EDIT : This is a genuine question, because I have no clue myself who won.
Some people tends to get competetive over anything. But you really should have actually watched the vid before commenting.
And no, I don't expect any of them to be pay2win.
I do expect EA owned Bioware to sell content as DLC like they done lately in single player games. Items with stats however is another thing and would be very stupid of them, I don't think they are stupid.
Guildwars 2 will probably not sell items with stats but even if they do it wont matter much, since GW2 isn't based on gear and all gear of the same level have about the same powerlevel.
Pay2win only work in games similar to Wow and EQ where gear actually matters.