My initial reaction to this idea is negative but I'll reserve final judgment until I see it in action. I raid for the thrill of clearing challenging endgame content and solving the puzzles that developers have placed before me. I see loot as a tool to solve the next puzzle. Giving everybody immediate access to such tools in my opinion, is not a very good idea.
I have been organizing raids for the past six years and have seen what I imagine to be several posters in this thread; the kind of people who show up strictly to get that badass item. Most often these types will vanish once they do so. By the way it sounds I will be replacing people far more often with such a system.
I guess I am just a bit jaded with people who use the raid party as a means to complete their goal. It should be the other way around.
My other concern is that with everybody running around in super-epic-gear-of-kickass, it will diminish the excitement of having such gear.
bioware isnt stupid, they can see how catering to newbs is the secret to mass success as there are many more newbs than hardcore players. WoW has slowly overtime made its game easier and more accessible to newbs to the point where there are very few aspects left which require any skill. Bioware is just trying to follow in those footsteps by making it very easy to get loot. Everyone gets a contanier with an item suited to there class on every boss, you really couldnt make it any more newb friendly than that every boss new loots you will need to raid for a week to be done.
Do I like this? No, but I hate newbs and I hate what they have done to WOW to be so successful but I dont think its a bad move by bioware there are so many newbs out there and Im sure this makes them wet.
Going around constantly calling people "newbs" is truly the mark of a seasoned, hardcore MMO veteran. Congratulations!
Seriously, it's nice to see game companies cater to players that would either like to be able to enjoy a game without making it the centeral focus of their life, or simply don't feel that spending hours upon hours of your life trying to attain a pair of magical boots is the sign of a skilled gamer (or a sane person). Personally, I'm happy they are putting so much more focus into story and not into "grinding for leet gearz".
I think I read someplace that your gear you end up with End game is going to be perfect gear to enter Raid content with.
They said that there is not going to be SUB Raid dungeons to run countless hours To GET Raid gear to gear up for raids with.
SO that being said everything we find inside the raid quest will be bonus ..even if it happens to be a chit that we need to get enough of to purchase the gear that could have dropped for us.
I for ONE love the idea .. I liked it in warhammer PQ's and I will love it in TOR ...
Look to the stars to know HE is with us. HE hung them as markers, of times and of seasons.
Like many said even the easy cookie cutter lobby game Blizzards 800 pound gorilla has become will look like challenging against SWTOR.
Why oh why do people feel like they should get a reward for everything? Guess what I'm doing raids cause I want to if "my loot" drops fine if not, well some other guildmember will get something usefull therefore benefitting the whole guild.
There should absolutely be no way of getting raidlike gear, while doing non raid stuff such as grouping or farming repetitive crap known as daily quests.
And yes I've seen all those super story videos nothing special really, though tons of logic problems as seen in the latest one, a boss who only has a knockback and is standing there while others are burning away his HP?
To be honest this game looks more like an interactive movie than a MMORPG.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Everyone in a raid will get a reward their class can use ...
You will see MORE peeps Raiding with this system as it is not dependant on ONE item dropping that only a few in the raid can even equip and having those Few try to roll for the ONE item.
Everyone gets a shot ... Now I wonder if Duplicate items will drop or if there is some mechanism in place to detect what Items are in each account at the time of Loot table Roll ? That would be cool.
I guess if the loot was not bound to Character and could be Traded then duplicate item drops would be alright also.
I MUST get to Raid Level .... I must .. I must .. I have to see these Quests.
Look to the stars to know HE is with us. HE hung them as markers, of times and of seasons.
To be honest this game looks more like an interactive movie than a MMORPG.
You just described every recent Bioware game.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
To be honest this game looks more like an interactive movie than a MMORPG.
You just described every recent Bioware game.
thanks thats the reason why I'm one of the few who didn't like Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age at all.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Never played WOW but the whole loot bag for each person in the raid is a great idea to be honest, instead of walking away empty handed at times but you contributed just as much as everyone else I see why not? I've always thought people should get something for their work cause raids are work having to do them over and over again and not getting that piece of equipment or vanity item...
What's even better they put in a endgame planet for soloer's which solves the problem of solo players not having anything to do at endgame, now if we can get a sandbox planet I would be a happy camper......
If people raided to just see the content and pass the obstacles, then people wouldn't raid much, because when they did it once, puzzle solved next... Gear has always been the reason why most people raid, its the reason why they do it over and over and over...
The way Bioware is implenting this system is not going to take away the raiding grind, it is still going to take you several raids to get your gear, some people here seem to be missing that fact. The loot bag only gives you a CHANCE to get a class specific item, not a gaurantee. And the badges or whatever they're called is only to purchase gear if you are unlucky enough to not get any gear drops from the boss's or loot bag after several attempts.
I think some think that this is going to take away the raid grind, and I don't really see this happening from that viewpoint. Instead of complaining about this system, you might want to wait and take a look at how they are doing PvP rewards, or crafted gear instead
The flaw with this system is that say you have a crappy player who did horrible in the raid, he has full potential to receive the best drops from a raid or raid boss. Skill and participation need to be rewarded accordingly.
The problem with rewarding players based on certain statistics is you will have balancing issues, some games a support class can easily out "score" other members just because of how much healing, buffing, and debuffing is rewarded in said game. Other times being a support class is the most abyssmal thing, because healing will yield no influence to your "score".
Honestly I just want a game that can provide a challenge for a well coordinated group, I'm tired of blowing through the entire game in a week or two. The last 6 games my friends and I tried fell subject to the lack of content or difficulty in said content.
*Back on topic* The earliest game I can think of that used this system was Hellgate London. The only problem was that, you spent more time looking at the loot scattered all over the ground, making sure you didn't miss anything that other people your party could use.
I like the idea been playing DAOC for since beginning,and still today there are loot stealers. in lotro hated it no luck at all was usally only Runnie running and got junk.Ihave played alotta diffrent games in beta and once released, this sounds good,but u must rember if u are like me and have no luck at all nothing helps haha...
I think it is a good idea. I always hated the idea of having to roll for gear after a very difficult encounter. The idea that you put in your best game, succeeded and then just some unlucky roll prevents you from obtaining something, is just frustrating.
I do hope they make anything you pick up in those group encounters tradable. Im ok with bind on equip, but hate bind on pickup.
Sounds like a grand idea! Personally i've had to run maybe a dozen instances over and over again, (more than 10 times) to get gear I wanted, sometimes never appearing or getting shut out by another team member.
On the other hand it devalues end game gear, example, "Oh wow, gnarly! You got {insert gear} from the new 12 man raid! Now you belong to an elite club! Oh wait, half the server is in it, not so elite anymore I guess, sorry."
On the other hand it devalues end game gear, example, "Oh wow, gnarly! You got {insert gear} from the new 12 man raid! Now you belong to an elite club! Oh wait, half the server is in it, not so elite anymore I guess, sorry."
I'm amazed everytime I see someone saying/thinking you are elite because you have gear from a raid. When does people will understand that you are not elite because you have more time than others.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
On the other hand it devalues end game gear, example, "Oh wow, gnarly! You got {insert gear} from the new 12 man raid! Now you belong to an elite club! Oh wait, half the server is in it, not so elite anymore I guess, sorry."
I'm amazed everytime I see someone saying/thinking you are elite because you have gear from a raid. When does people will understand that you are not elite because you have more time than others.
Didn't mean to offend anyone, only meant what I said out of repect. I should say "an exclusive club"
On the other hand it devalues end game gear, example, "Oh wow, gnarly! You got {insert gear} from the new 12 man raid! Now you belong to an elite club! Oh wait, half the server is in it, not so elite anymore I guess, sorry."
I'm amazed everytime I see someone saying/thinking you are elite because you have gear from a raid. When does people will understand that you are not elite because you have more time than others.
Didn't mean to offend anyone, only meant what I said out of repect. I should say "an exclusive club"
Generally I rarely even care when people who the armor of awsome, I might stop for a second, but thats about it.
The term welfare epics where coined during the early years of WoW. The term came from hardcore raiders that would raid and gear up, and than in turn go into pvp and steamroll the non raiders into the ground. Being almost untouchable, so what WoW did in response to this was to make gear for non raiders. Basically people that spent most of their time in pvp instead of raiding, when the pvpers geared up in this manner the hardcore raiders found that they couldn't no longer beat those people, and thus inturn started get their asses handed back to them. In response to this the raiders started calling the pvp gear welfare epics, although you still had to work your ass off just to obtain said gear. Under the old system it took months to be able to aquire a whole set of pvp gear and it required large chunks of time on the player's behalf. Although it took staggering amounts of time and work to obtain this gear just like raids. The hardcore raiders still felt it was inferior to their gear grind raids, it really wasn't about time and effort. It was more about the hardcore raiders being epeen hurt, they could no longer go into pvp with their shiny new epics and steamroll the pvpers. This also set up pvp as a viable way of endgame progession. People throw around the term welfare epics without knowing the true meaning or origin of the term.
Not exactly.
Term was "coined" as you put it by Jeff "Tigole" Kaplan, game designer at Blizzard Entertainment. Was at a Blizzcon presentation if I recall, around the time of the Burning Crusade era of WOW's history. Mr. Kaplan used it to denote how raiders "earned" their gear as opposed to the subhuman PVP players. Afterwards, the raiders in the WOW community then picked up on the term Tigole introduced and ran with it. I suppose it was a poor choice of words on Mr. Kaplan's part. Google it--it's an interesting read through WOW history.
QFT! Why should someone else care what loot I get? If anything, this will keep pvp on an more even playing field, which should be more FUN. If you play these games just to lord your purple lewtz over those who do not have them, I really feel genuinely sorry for you, because you are a total loser. ;-)
It would be one thing if this were implemented in WoW after 6 years of the previous structure (which they kind of do with each expansion where green trash drops are better than previous raid gear). Then, anger has some justification, but this starts from the beginning.
People who hate the idea of loot containers not playing SWTOR seems like a good filtering system to me. ;-)
The flaw with this system is that say you have a crappy player who did horrible in the raid, he has full potential to receive the best drops from a raid or raid boss. Skill and participation need to be rewarded accordingly.
Why not just kick them from the group? I generally only group with people who slack or don't understand the game once max, then they go into my ignore file.
The flaw with this system is that say you have a crappy player who did horrible in the raid, he has full potential to receive the best drops from a raid or raid boss. Skill and participation need to be rewarded accordingly.
Why not just kick them from the group? I generally only group with people who slack or don't understand the game once max, then they go into my ignore file.
I can see if somebody is slacking off and can do alot better, but if somebody does not understand the raid or w/e you can explain it to them. Once you get to a certain level you should understand your class, but say it is your first time in a certain raid or dungeon, well you may need somebody to fill you in on the details rather than kick you or add you to ignore.
I like this idea. Nothing more frustrating than having someone roll and win on a piece you need for their alt. The character rolling can't use it and you need it, but the roll for an alt then offer to sell it to you for an exhorbitant amount.
Comments
My initial reaction to this idea is negative but I'll reserve final judgment until I see it in action. I raid for the thrill of clearing challenging endgame content and solving the puzzles that developers have placed before me. I see loot as a tool to solve the next puzzle. Giving everybody immediate access to such tools in my opinion, is not a very good idea.
I have been organizing raids for the past six years and have seen what I imagine to be several posters in this thread; the kind of people who show up strictly to get that badass item. Most often these types will vanish once they do so. By the way it sounds I will be replacing people far more often with such a system.
I guess I am just a bit jaded with people who use the raid party as a means to complete their goal. It should be the other way around.
My other concern is that with everybody running around in super-epic-gear-of-kickass, it will diminish the excitement of having such gear.
Originally posted by the420kid
bioware isnt stupid, they can see how catering to newbs is the secret to mass success as there are many more newbs than hardcore players. WoW has slowly overtime made its game easier and more accessible to newbs to the point where there are very few aspects left which require any skill. Bioware is just trying to follow in those footsteps by making it very easy to get loot. Everyone gets a contanier with an item suited to there class on every boss, you really couldnt make it any more newb friendly than that every boss new loots you will need to raid for a week to be done.
Do I like this? No, but I hate newbs and I hate what they have done to WOW to be so successful but I dont think its a bad move by bioware there are so many newbs out there and Im sure this makes them wet.
Going around constantly calling people "newbs" is truly the mark of a seasoned, hardcore MMO veteran. Congratulations!
Seriously, it's nice to see game companies cater to players that would either like to be able to enjoy a game without making it the centeral focus of their life, or simply don't feel that spending hours upon hours of your life trying to attain a pair of magical boots is the sign of a skilled gamer (or a sane person). Personally, I'm happy they are putting so much more focus into story and not into "grinding for leet gearz".
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I think I read someplace that your gear you end up with End game is going to be perfect gear to enter Raid content with.
They said that there is not going to be SUB Raid dungeons to run countless hours To GET Raid gear to gear up for raids with.
SO that being said everything we find inside the raid quest will be bonus ..even if it happens to be a chit that we need to get enough of to purchase the gear that could have dropped for us.
I for ONE love the idea .. I liked it in warhammer PQ's and I will love it in TOR ...
Look to the stars to know HE is with us. HE hung them as markers, of times and of seasons.
Like many said even the easy cookie cutter lobby game Blizzards 800 pound gorilla has become will look like challenging against SWTOR.
Why oh why do people feel like they should get a reward for everything? Guess what I'm doing raids cause I want to if "my loot" drops fine if not, well some other guildmember will get something usefull therefore benefitting the whole guild.
There should absolutely be no way of getting raidlike gear, while doing non raid stuff such as grouping or farming repetitive crap known as daily quests.
And yes I've seen all those super story videos nothing special really, though tons of logic problems as seen in the latest one, a boss who only has a knockback and is standing there while others are burning away his HP?
To be honest this game looks more like an interactive movie than a MMORPG.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Everyone in a raid will get a reward their class can use ...
You will see MORE peeps Raiding with this system as it is not dependant on ONE item dropping that only a few in the raid can even equip and having those Few try to roll for the ONE item.
Everyone gets a shot ... Now I wonder if Duplicate items will drop or if there is some mechanism in place to detect what Items are in each account at the time of Loot table Roll ? That would be cool.
I guess if the loot was not bound to Character and could be Traded then duplicate item drops would be alright also.
I MUST get to Raid Level .... I must .. I must .. I have to see these Quests.
Look to the stars to know HE is with us. HE hung them as markers, of times and of seasons.
"Well, at least I got something for my time!"
Just this really.
You just described every recent Bioware game.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
thanks thats the reason why I'm one of the few who didn't like Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age at all.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Never played WOW but the whole loot bag for each person in the raid is a great idea to be honest, instead of walking away empty handed at times but you contributed just as much as everyone else I see why not? I've always thought people should get something for their work cause raids are work having to do them over and over again and not getting that piece of equipment or vanity item...
What's even better they put in a endgame planet for soloer's which solves the problem of solo players not having anything to do at endgame, now if we can get a sandbox planet I would be a happy camper......
If people raided to just see the content and pass the obstacles, then people wouldn't raid much, because when they did it once, puzzle solved next... Gear has always been the reason why most people raid, its the reason why they do it over and over and over...
The way Bioware is implenting this system is not going to take away the raiding grind, it is still going to take you several raids to get your gear, some people here seem to be missing that fact. The loot bag only gives you a CHANCE to get a class specific item, not a gaurantee. And the badges or whatever they're called is only to purchase gear if you are unlucky enough to not get any gear drops from the boss's or loot bag after several attempts.
I think some think that this is going to take away the raid grind, and I don't really see this happening from that viewpoint. Instead of complaining about this system, you might want to wait and take a look at how they are doing PvP rewards, or crafted gear instead
Personal loot tables? Nothing new.
The flaw with this system is that say you have a crappy player who did horrible in the raid, he has full potential to receive the best drops from a raid or raid boss. Skill and participation need to be rewarded accordingly.
The problem with rewarding players based on certain statistics is you will have balancing issues, some games a support class can easily out "score" other members just because of how much healing, buffing, and debuffing is rewarded in said game. Other times being a support class is the most abyssmal thing, because healing will yield no influence to your "score".
Honestly I just want a game that can provide a challenge for a well coordinated group, I'm tired of blowing through the entire game in a week or two. The last 6 games my friends and I tried fell subject to the lack of content or difficulty in said content.
*Back on topic* The earliest game I can think of that used this system was Hellgate London. The only problem was that, you spent more time looking at the loot scattered all over the ground, making sure you didn't miss anything that other people your party could use.
I like the idea been playing DAOC for since beginning,and still today there are loot stealers. in lotro hated it no luck at all was usally only Runnie running and got junk.Ihave played alotta diffrent games in beta and once released, this sounds good,but u must rember if u are like me and have no luck at all nothing helps haha...
I think it is a good idea. I always hated the idea of having to roll for gear after a very difficult encounter. The idea that you put in your best game, succeeded and then just some unlucky roll prevents you from obtaining something, is just frustrating.
I do hope they make anything you pick up in those group encounters tradable. Im ok with bind on equip, but hate bind on pickup.
Sounds like a grand idea! Personally i've had to run maybe a dozen instances over and over again, (more than 10 times) to get gear I wanted, sometimes never appearing or getting shut out by another team member.
On the other hand it devalues end game gear, example, "Oh wow, gnarly! You got {insert gear} from the new 12 man raid! Now you belong to an elite club! Oh wait, half the server is in it, not so elite anymore I guess, sorry."
I'm amazed everytime I see someone saying/thinking you are elite because you have gear from a raid. When does people will understand that you are not elite because you have more time than others.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Didn't mean to offend anyone, only meant what I said out of repect. I should say "an exclusive club"
Generally I rarely even care when people who the armor of awsome, I might stop for a second, but thats about it.
I see both points to this debate tho I tend to side with the Avid gammers on this one, I just want rewards for killing all the Jedi I come across
Not exactly.
Term was "coined" as you put it by Jeff "Tigole" Kaplan, game designer at Blizzard Entertainment. Was at a Blizzcon presentation if I recall, around the time of the Burning Crusade era of WOW's history. Mr. Kaplan used it to denote how raiders "earned" their gear as opposed to the subhuman PVP players. Afterwards, the raiders in the WOW community then picked up on the term Tigole introduced and ran with it. I suppose it was a poor choice of words on Mr. Kaplan's part. Google it--it's an interesting read through WOW history.
You're welcome for the lesson.
QFT! Why should someone else care what loot I get? If anything, this will keep pvp on an more even playing field, which should be more FUN. If you play these games just to lord your purple lewtz over those who do not have them, I really feel genuinely sorry for you, because you are a total loser. ;-)
It would be one thing if this were implemented in WoW after 6 years of the previous structure (which they kind of do with each expansion where green trash drops are better than previous raid gear). Then, anger has some justification, but this starts from the beginning.
People who hate the idea of loot containers not playing SWTOR seems like a good filtering system to me. ;-)
Why not just kick them from the group? I generally only group with people who slack or don't understand the game once max, then they go into my ignore file.
I like the idea.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
I can see if somebody is slacking off and can do alot better, but if somebody does not understand the raid or w/e you can explain it to them. Once you get to a certain level you should understand your class, but say it is your first time in a certain raid or dungeon, well you may need somebody to fill you in on the details rather than kick you or add you to ignore.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
I like this idea. Nothing more frustrating than having someone roll and win on a piece you need for their alt. The character rolling can't use it and you need it, but the roll for an alt then offer to sell it to you for an exhorbitant amount.
I totally support this form of loot. Getting something is better than recieving nothing for your time.