I never had a big issue with getting no reward after a raid. It was more about the teamwork, having fun and getting a guildmate getting a long desired item.
This method of rewarding only enhances the "ME" factor. I rather play a "WE" game. It could work if the vendor loot is of rare quality and the possible extra drop is of epic quality. I really hate the tendency of getting rewarded with epics for each 5 minutes I have been online.
This is great news! Anyone who complains about this or thinks it an awful idea seriously needs behavioral counseling-or something. Why would you complain about everyone getting their share for their time? Kudos Bioware
We like to play MMOs because real people aren't as interesting, real exercise and fighting hurts, and virtual females are attractive.
Will look forward to seeing on youtube what the fuss is about. I have chosen not to play, because of my own reasons. As for this idea, im intrigued by it and will be looking for videos displaying this from the commentators and raiding groups alike.
I struggle not with life, money, emotions, and world, but against old mindsets and selves to be proven obsolete in a age and time of rapid changes. Go create fun, so you can have fun.
If the game isn't gear centric, but story centric, why is 'welfare epics' come into the picture? You aren't suppose to grind for gear in a story centric MMORPG.
Good to know we have a story centric MMORPG expert to let us know how to play them, im sure his resume of story driven MMORPG experience is impressive.
They aren't welfare epics - you are simply guaranteed SOME kind of class-specific or useful loot. As opposed to RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR loot. RNG loot system sucks, and always will.
They aren't welfare epics - you are simply guaranteed SOME kind of class-specific or useful loot. As opposed to RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR loot. RNG loot system sucks, and always will.
name a game were you get loot all the time the way you want it..... none right so out of all the raiding i had to do in all mmrpgs is all the same.
I'm not sure what the big fuss is about. Bioware wants to compete with WoW so they are making a game that plays and feels extremely like WoW. Most WoW players like the idea of easy/quick to get purples so most WoW players will probably love this system. Bioware knows their target audience and they are going to build features in TOR with that specific audience in mind.
This is one of those arguements i never really grasp. I spent 3 days a week sometiems more raiding learning boss fights farming for consumbles and so on in WoW. I enjoyed almost every minute of it. I had parts of the latest gear and I enjoyed the journey. I would see others who had close to and sometimes a bit better gear than one of my toons who got it by doing a daily duegon quest. Not once did i step back and think omg what a loser freaking welfare epics. No i sat back and thought I could go that route myself, but i would be missing out on a big part of the game i used to love. I could care less if everyone had plus2 to all mains stats more than me. It is still this way and i dont really raid in any games anymore. WHo cares what armor/weapon another has if yours get the job you are wanting to do done. Its rather dumb and makes me wonder why half the players play at all.
Call me a Care Bear, but im giving a Plus to this Looting system, causes a lot of equality, and the fact that u are most likely not going to ever have a wasted raid or dungeon run (Flashpoint in this case)
I hate the idea of loot containers. It will make acquiring end game epic items that much easier, then when everyone is in the highest tier gear after the first two months, there will be nothing left to do,, which will cause people to quit in flocks...
These game developers just don't get it.. What made Everquest such a legendary game was the memorable raids, where everyone focused and worked as a team to kill the raid boss.. Then the bext part came the loot.. Whatever dropped, one could either use their DKP points or save them for later.. Then, when the time finally came where your most desired item finally dropped, you would spend your DKP points only to find out 5 other guildies chose to do the same.. You end up losing the roll, which sucked, however, it made you desire it that much more for when it finally drops again a month or two later!
It was very difficult obtaining the very best end game gear back then.. That's what made the armor and weaps so unique and mezmerizing to see.. Nowadays, these whinny kids want everything so fast, and cry when they get shafted.. This is why you never saw those battlenet FPS gamers in EQ.. They did nothing but cry me rivers upon rivers, until they finally just left!
MMO's where it's easy to level, easy to acquire the best gear, and easy to defeat all the content don't really know how to keep it's players.. Why? because after a few months these gamers get bored and move to something else because the game is just a roller coaster ride.. I don't want to see TOR turn out like that..
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
I'm not sure what the big fuss is about. Bioware wants to compete with WoW so they are making a game that plays and feels extremely like WoW. Most WoW players like the idea of easy/quick to get purples so most WoW players will probably love this system. Bioware knows their target audience and they are going to build features in TOR with that specific audience in mind.
wow players waste 40+ hours a week doing raids for a chance at the newest greatest thing, and every few months they have to work on a whole new set.
bioware is saying if you do the hard stuff, you get something, either currency that adds up to buy the best set, or a random drop from your class set if youre lucky.
i dont see the parralel here, looks to me like biowares system is superior in every way. no random drops to have go to waste because everyone on the raid that could use it already has it, no loosing rolls on that one thing that you wanted that drops to someone else that got a need button option on it, no corrupt guild leaders being able to play favorites on handing out the drops.
I know Mike B. probably isnt paying attention to this thread anymore but wth are you going on about? The term "Welfare Epics" did not come from people getting tokens or guaranteed loot. It came from way back when raids got dumbed down so the non hardcore raiders could derp their way through previously hard content and get easy epics. Loot containers or badges or equal loot distribution had nothing to do with it. It was when devs would make raids easier after every patch but still drop the same quality gear that the hardcore raiders got when they did it on the initial difficulty.
I havent read anywhere that ToR is going to scale down their raids after every patch. Maybe I missed it somewhere. But that would be the only reason to call them welfare epics.
wow players waste 40+ hours a week doing raids for a chance at the newest greatest thing, and every few months they have to work on a whole new set.
A very hardcore minority of WoW players spend 40+ hours a week raiding. That's almost 6 hours per night, every night lol. Most guilds raid 2-3 nights a week, 2-3 hours per night. 4-9 hours a week in a raid is still a lot for the majority of WoWs casual crowd.
I believe this system is targeted at the casual guy who logs on for an hour or so per night and complains about not getting his phat loots in that extremely difficult 20 minute dungeon run. You know, the majory of WoW casuals.
Sigh, yet another author whose first MMO was clearly WoW. WoW did not invent the "Welfare epic" terminology. It was invented by harcore raiding Everquest players who were seriously pissed off at a patch just after Luclin that nerfed the heck outta raid content, allowing people to pick up epics easily after they had had to spend months grinding for them.
I was one of the recipients of this particular bit of scorn, as I hadn't been in a raiding guild prior to the patch. I took my druid (only my second character) from nada to full epic clad in 2 months- the epic part took me less than a week. They also introduced crafting epics for the Solstice Earring at the same time, which were quickly ground out for the general population and could be done as a low level character!
2001, several years before WoW raised it's ugly head.
While I agree we have less time .. the trade offs we are talking about here take the genre into little more than an arcade game. While it might be necessary to balance things for a more casual playstyle, this game (from what I have read) is going to make guilds and community almost completely irrelevant. You re just going to have miles and miles of pug raids clearing instances.
If ... somehow ... they actually make raids hard enough to require a guild and communication ... all this system does is make it impossible for a guild to gear a main tank. Otherwise it's the exact same thing (with a different envelope) whether you are rolling from a popup box where you can actually pass on items you dont need anymore, or letting the cpu decide what you get.
The difference again is that you cannot pass the item to your guild mate. Which is just lame. What if I am there for jsut to help my guild and already have that super rare amazing trinket that increases my DPS by 5% ... and it pops up in my bag while im standing next to my friend who doesn't raid that much and is still in quest gear? GG I guess.
This game really seems to be striving to take the control away from the player in many regards .. guess we'll have to see how it plays out.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I stopped bothering to raid when mages would roll for a plate piece they couldnt even use and planned to vendor. Something that rewards everyone who helped instead of just one or two lucky people is way better.
I stopped bothering to raid when mages would roll for a plate piece they couldnt even use and planned to vendor. Something that rewards everyone who helped instead of just one or two lucky people is way better.
I think it was Aion or AoC that only let you "need" on pieces for your class and "greed" for everything else. Was a nice touch to stop that and not too intrusive.
Term was "coined" as you put it by Jeff "Tigole" Kaplan, game designer at Blizzard Entertainment. Was at a Blizzcon presentation if I recall, around the time of the Burning Crusade era of WOW's history. Mr. Kaplan used it to denote how raiders "earned" their gear as opposed to the subhuman PVP players. Afterwards, the raiders in the WOW community then picked up on the term Tigole introduced and ran with it. I suppose it was a poor choice of words on Mr. Kaplan's part. Google it--it's an interesting read through WOW history.
You're welcome for the lesson.
Nope, it was used at me and many others on a message board right after Luclin was released by SoE in 2001. He may have gotten it from there and used it, but he didn't originate it.
This is great news! Anyone who complains about this or thinks it an awful idea seriously needs behavioral counseling-or something. Why would you complain about everyone getting their share for their time? Kudos Bioware
How is it that foreseeing a faulty system equate to behavioral problems?
How their doing loot, players will raid in spurts then stop as they will quickly gear up their toons. I've played DDO where each player has their own seperate loot pull, as nice as it sounds it's really not quite all what it's cracked up to be. I've done 20 completions of raids and still not get the drop I was looking for. Token system? Now this is a fine line, with AoC Godslayer Funcom did a ridiculous grinding to accumulate the tokens for faction gear... talk months of grinding if not a whole year. However WoW showed how ridiculously easy it can be to farm your tokens. In the end I see people gearing up real quick... too quick.
Anyways the vast majority who are preeching how this is the greatest thing since sliced bread have already showed that they wanted quick gear ups. Should you get the lewt on your first month of raiding compared to the seasoned raiders? Hell no you shouldn't. I personally never had a problem and have been in half a dozen different raiding guilds and seen need before greed, DKP, wishlist, and GP/EP practices. It's really not a big deal as everyone is making it out to be. People are expecting to get every piece of gear they want withing a month or two of raiding, thats ridiculous and with this system I'd be betting that'll be the case.
I stopped bothering to raid when mages would roll for a plate piece they couldnt even use and planned to vendor. Something that rewards everyone who helped instead of just one or two lucky people is way better.
I think it was Aion or AoC that only let you "need" on pieces for your class and "greed" for everything else. Was a nice touch to stop that and not too intrusive.
Was gonna say WoW had it first but then noticed that you might be referring to how they wouldn't allow clothies to roll need on heavy armor. Really a spot on ideal that caught on to other MMOs.
Yeah seriously. The subtext here is: If everyone gets something, the losers who live off the producers get rewarded. Bad choice of title for this article.
Comments
I'm thinking WoW will introduce this conveniently somewhere around when the game is released.
I never had a big issue with getting no reward after a raid. It was more about the teamwork, having fun and getting a guildmate getting a long desired item.
This method of rewarding only enhances the "ME" factor. I rather play a "WE" game. It could work if the vendor loot is of rare quality and the possible extra drop is of epic quality. I really hate the tendency of getting rewarded with epics for each 5 minutes I have been online.
This is great news! Anyone who complains about this or thinks it an awful idea seriously needs behavioral counseling-or something. Why would you complain about everyone getting their share for their time? Kudos Bioware
We like to play MMOs because real people aren't as interesting, real exercise and fighting hurts, and virtual females are attractive.
Will look forward to seeing on youtube what the fuss is about. I have chosen not to play, because of my own reasons. As for this idea, im intrigued by it and will be looking for videos displaying this from the commentators and raiding groups alike.
I struggle not with life, money, emotions, and world, but against old mindsets and selves to be proven obsolete in a age and time of rapid changes. Go create fun, so you can have fun.
Nice idea! I like it
Hate dkps
Good to know we have a story centric MMORPG expert to let us know how to play them, im sure his resume of story driven MMORPG experience is impressive.
They aren't welfare epics - you are simply guaranteed SOME kind of class-specific or useful loot. As opposed to RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR loot. RNG loot system sucks, and always will.
name a game were you get loot all the time the way you want it..... none right so out of all the raiding i had to do in all mmrpgs is all the same.
.....
You mean we never have to let boss loot rot over and over again because we keep getting pally shoulders?!
THE NERVE!
XD
I'm not sure what the big fuss is about. Bioware wants to compete with WoW so they are making a game that plays and feels extremely like WoW. Most WoW players like the idea of easy/quick to get purples so most WoW players will probably love this system. Bioware knows their target audience and they are going to build features in TOR with that specific audience in mind.
This is one of those arguements i never really grasp. I spent 3 days a week sometiems more raiding learning boss fights farming for consumbles and so on in WoW. I enjoyed almost every minute of it. I had parts of the latest gear and I enjoyed the journey. I would see others who had close to and sometimes a bit better gear than one of my toons who got it by doing a daily duegon quest. Not once did i step back and think omg what a loser freaking welfare epics. No i sat back and thought I could go that route myself, but i would be missing out on a big part of the game i used to love. I could care less if everyone had plus2 to all mains stats more than me. It is still this way and i dont really raid in any games anymore. WHo cares what armor/weapon another has if yours get the job you are wanting to do done. Its rather dumb and makes me wonder why half the players play at all.
Call me a Care Bear, but im giving a Plus to this Looting system, causes a lot of equality, and the fact that u are most likely not going to ever have a wasted raid or dungeon run (Flashpoint in this case)
I hate the idea of loot containers. It will make acquiring end game epic items that much easier, then when everyone is in the highest tier gear after the first two months, there will be nothing left to do,, which will cause people to quit in flocks...
These game developers just don't get it.. What made Everquest such a legendary game was the memorable raids, where everyone focused and worked as a team to kill the raid boss.. Then the bext part came the loot.. Whatever dropped, one could either use their DKP points or save them for later.. Then, when the time finally came where your most desired item finally dropped, you would spend your DKP points only to find out 5 other guildies chose to do the same.. You end up losing the roll, which sucked, however, it made you desire it that much more for when it finally drops again a month or two later!
It was very difficult obtaining the very best end game gear back then.. That's what made the armor and weaps so unique and mezmerizing to see.. Nowadays, these whinny kids want everything so fast, and cry when they get shafted.. This is why you never saw those battlenet FPS gamers in EQ.. They did nothing but cry me rivers upon rivers, until they finally just left!
MMO's where it's easy to level, easy to acquire the best gear, and easy to defeat all the content don't really know how to keep it's players.. Why? because after a few months these gamers get bored and move to something else because the game is just a roller coaster ride.. I don't want to see TOR turn out like that..
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
wow players waste 40+ hours a week doing raids for a chance at the newest greatest thing, and every few months they have to work on a whole new set.
bioware is saying if you do the hard stuff, you get something, either currency that adds up to buy the best set, or a random drop from your class set if youre lucky.
i dont see the parralel here, looks to me like biowares system is superior in every way. no random drops to have go to waste because everyone on the raid that could use it already has it, no loosing rolls on that one thing that you wanted that drops to someone else that got a need button option on it, no corrupt guild leaders being able to play favorites on handing out the drops.
I know Mike B. probably isnt paying attention to this thread anymore but wth are you going on about? The term "Welfare Epics" did not come from people getting tokens or guaranteed loot. It came from way back when raids got dumbed down so the non hardcore raiders could derp their way through previously hard content and get easy epics. Loot containers or badges or equal loot distribution had nothing to do with it. It was when devs would make raids easier after every patch but still drop the same quality gear that the hardcore raiders got when they did it on the initial difficulty.
I havent read anywhere that ToR is going to scale down their raids after every patch. Maybe I missed it somewhere. But that would be the only reason to call them welfare epics.
A very hardcore minority of WoW players spend 40+ hours a week raiding. That's almost 6 hours per night, every night lol. Most guilds raid 2-3 nights a week, 2-3 hours per night. 4-9 hours a week in a raid is still a lot for the majority of WoWs casual crowd.
I believe this system is targeted at the casual guy who logs on for an hour or so per night and complains about not getting his phat loots in that extremely difficult 20 minute dungeon run. You know, the majory of WoW casuals.
Sigh, yet another author whose first MMO was clearly WoW. WoW did not invent the "Welfare epic" terminology. It was invented by harcore raiding Everquest players who were seriously pissed off at a patch just after Luclin that nerfed the heck outta raid content, allowing people to pick up epics easily after they had had to spend months grinding for them.
I was one of the recipients of this particular bit of scorn, as I hadn't been in a raiding guild prior to the patch. I took my druid (only my second character) from nada to full epic clad in 2 months- the epic part took me less than a week. They also introduced crafting epics for the Solstice Earring at the same time, which were quickly ground out for the general population and could be done as a low level character!
2001, several years before WoW raised it's ugly head.
While I agree we have less time .. the trade offs we are talking about here take the genre into little more than an arcade game. While it might be necessary to balance things for a more casual playstyle, this game (from what I have read) is going to make guilds and community almost completely irrelevant. You re just going to have miles and miles of pug raids clearing instances.
If ... somehow ... they actually make raids hard enough to require a guild and communication ... all this system does is make it impossible for a guild to gear a main tank. Otherwise it's the exact same thing (with a different envelope) whether you are rolling from a popup box where you can actually pass on items you dont need anymore, or letting the cpu decide what you get.
The difference again is that you cannot pass the item to your guild mate. Which is just lame. What if I am there for jsut to help my guild and already have that super rare amazing trinket that increases my DPS by 5% ... and it pops up in my bag while im standing next to my friend who doesn't raid that much and is still in quest gear? GG I guess.
This game really seems to be striving to take the control away from the player in many regards .. guess we'll have to see how it plays out.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I stopped bothering to raid when mages would roll for a plate piece they couldnt even use and planned to vendor. Something that rewards everyone who helped instead of just one or two lucky people is way better.
I think it was Aion or AoC that only let you "need" on pieces for your class and "greed" for everything else. Was a nice touch to stop that and not too intrusive.
Nope, it was used at me and many others on a message board right after Luclin was released by SoE in 2001. He may have gotten it from there and used it, but he didn't originate it.
How is it that foreseeing a faulty system equate to behavioral problems?
How their doing loot, players will raid in spurts then stop as they will quickly gear up their toons. I've played DDO where each player has their own seperate loot pull, as nice as it sounds it's really not quite all what it's cracked up to be. I've done 20 completions of raids and still not get the drop I was looking for. Token system? Now this is a fine line, with AoC Godslayer Funcom did a ridiculous grinding to accumulate the tokens for faction gear... talk months of grinding if not a whole year. However WoW showed how ridiculously easy it can be to farm your tokens. In the end I see people gearing up real quick... too quick.
Anyways the vast majority who are preeching how this is the greatest thing since sliced bread have already showed that they wanted quick gear ups. Should you get the lewt on your first month of raiding compared to the seasoned raiders? Hell no you shouldn't. I personally never had a problem and have been in half a dozen different raiding guilds and seen need before greed, DKP, wishlist, and GP/EP practices. It's really not a big deal as everyone is making it out to be. People are expecting to get every piece of gear they want withing a month or two of raiding, thats ridiculous and with this system I'd be betting that'll be the case.
Was gonna say WoW had it first but then noticed that you might be referring to how they wouldn't allow clothies to roll need on heavy armor. Really a spot on ideal that caught on to other MMOs.
Yeah seriously. The subtext here is: If everyone gets something, the losers who live off the producers get rewarded. Bad choice of title for this article.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011