Massively editorial on Bioware's missed opportunity

Chieftan

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09/13/the-soapbox-why-mmo-combat-sucks-and-how-bioware-couldve-made/#continued

 

Now in Bioware's defense I will say that they at least made storytelling central to the gameplay(something Lucas whiffed on in the prequels).  But as far as combat and class balance goes, I completely agree that Bioware could have and should have done something different than mimic generic MMO combat.

 

Being a jedi was supposed to take extensive training and discipline...it wasn't uncommon in older MMOs for some classes to start out relatively weak and blossom into a very powerful and critical roleplayer in the gameworld.  Whereas anybody could pick up a blaster and shoot, it should take some practice to wield a lightsaber AND the force in combat.  If that means leveling slower...so be it. 

 

Also a good jedi was supposed to not let anger and aggression motivate his actions...here was an opportunity to put in a "rage" bar that actually limits the way a jedi can engage in combat.  When that bar fills up, maybe you lose the ability to parry or block laser blasts for example.

 

In ROTJ especially you saw where Luke had to resolve situations without his lightsaber...relying only on his wits and the force to get through a problem.  That kind of restraint and situational discipline would have made more sense and could have worked in a game.

 

Maybe the jedi wouldn't be able to go on the same quests as everybody else all the time.  They're bound to a moral code so while maybe other classes would have a much broader path, the jedi would to have forgoe some of the opportunities open to other classes.

 

The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that Bioware took the easy way out and just copied the generic MMO combat model and really didn't put much effort into doing the jedi justice.

 

 

 

 

 

Saydien

When will people finally stop to judge the Jedi in this game by the standards of the movies? It's another era. Many things are different. As much as I am inclined to agree that combat could have been done a lot better I still can't help yawning at those "the vision of Jedi they implemented in their game doesn't suit me. This game sucks!" argument.

I'm pretty certain that the benefit/burden of being a Jedi will be feelable at more than just one point throughout the story. Just because there maybe is no such rage bar it doesn't mean that there isn't the necessary depth of playing a deep role as Jedi.

ktanner3

Sorry. Stopped reading when he said that all mmo combat sucks because it is too slow. Clearly this is a person that needs to stick to consoles and stay away from anything too complicated.

Sovrath

Originally posted by ktanner3

Sorry. Stopped reading when he said that all mmo combat sucks because it is too slow. Clearly this is a person that needs to stick to consoles and stay away from anything too complicated.

I have to say that was my initila gut reaction.

It essentially comes down to a person who is used to one type of combat and clearly is not willing to adapt to , or perhaps he is honest and just doesn't like mmo combat.

But it's an opinion piece nothign more or less.

me personally would always prefer looonger combat as there is a greater chance for someone to redeem themselves during combat. fast combat means that someone can just come in as gangbusters and completely mow over their opponent. if there is never a chance for the attacked to turn the tide, even small, then I dont' see that as fun.

 

Talonsin

Yes, everyone should be a Jedi and be able to one-hit kill anything with their lightsaber.  What a fun game that would be... NOT

 

 

Wharg0ul

I'm gonna say it again:

This is someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

They are passing judgement on a game that they have OBVIOUSLY never played, employing systems that they have OBVIOUSLY never experienced.

Terranah

Well I haven't played SWTOR yet so I can't really speak to their combat.  But mmo combat can be boring at times.

 

I think AOC had an interesting system, with attacking and blocking different angles and the fatalities were awesome.    It's hard  to think of something more satisfying than dismembering or beheading your foe and seeing arterial blood pumping out of a stump.  Sometimes when I pulled off fatalities during a close battle, I was like, "YEAH!!!! RAAAAAA...take that BITCH!"  LOL.  Seriously.  Other times I just kinda nodded my head and gave a little knowing smirk: uh huh...thas right....

 

In contrast, I found LOTRO combat very boring.  I would start to get crosseyed, see double, start yawning.  One time I was fighting some deer...and it was so boring I fell asleep.  It seemed very slow and monotonous.  

 

PRECU SWG was interesting in that if you used a weapon or performed a skill you improved that ability.  That seemed to kept me going quite a bit.  I used to ponder if my real life work had skill boxes if I wouldn't be running the place, because I was always motivated to play a little longer, kill one more mob...just so I could level up and get a new box with new abilities.

 

DCUO was kinda fun.  Getting loot that I could wear and being able to change to colors and stuff was great incentive.

 

Maybe sometimes its not so much the combat itself that is boring, but how it's integrated into the advancement/reward system.

 

 

Distopia

Jedi, Jedi, Jedi, Juuuuudiii. Sorry had to get that off my chest. I think the key here was creating a system where all can compete as a team, I don't think the goal should be Jedi leetness.

 

Antarious

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by ktanner3

Sorry. Stopped reading when he said that all mmo combat sucks because it is too slow. Clearly this is a person that needs to stick to consoles and stay away from anything too complicated.

I have to say that was my initila gut reaction.

It essentially comes down to a person who is used to one type of combat and clearly is not willing to adapt to , or perhaps he is honest and just doesn't like mmo combat.

But it's an opinion piece nothign more or less.

me personally would always prefer looonger combat as there is a greater chance for someone to redeem themselves during combat. fast combat means that someone can just come in as gangbusters and completely mow over their opponent. if there is never a chance for the attacked to turn the tide, even small, then I dont' see that as fun.

 

 

Well the thing to me is if I want to read an opinion I'll come here.   We have all these wonderful threads full of opinions.

 

If someone is writing for a website I don't really care what their opinion is.   What I want from a "writer" is basic facts about a product.

 

The main thing is this person comments about how many years MMO combat has sucked.   Well ok maybe this is a clue they shouldn't play MMO's or write about MMO combat?

 

I hate consoles and console games.   I don't write articles (or even posts) about consoles...   I certainly don't expect a console game to be.. something else.  

 

As to what I quoted yes I like the far more tactical aspect of MMO combat.   Obviously in Dark Age of Camelot I could one shot people with certain characters.   Heck my Ranger on the "class cluster" before they changed archery...   There was one RA that was a shot with 50% extra range and I believe you couldn't crit with it but it would go through "bubble".   Back then you got range bonus for Z axis.  I can remember being on a level 10 tower and shooting a caster that was on top of the central keep... must not have had any buffs *poof* dead.   He couldn't even near sight me at that range...

 

Is that really what you'd want to pay 15 bux a month to experience?   MMO's compared to shooters or any team based competitive game.. are about time investment.   Really try to imagine someone paying 15 bux a month for 5 or 6 years to be constantly one shot or killed during a 5 second stun.

 

lol imagine the person who wrote that article trying to play "old school" UO where weapons combat really was.. auto attack with absolutely no styles.. man there used to be some epic battles there.

 

*note*  I quoted what I did simply because it was rightfully pointed out the article was an opinion piece.   So I was mostly responding to that concept as opposed to anyone I quoted.

 

Beyorn

This is totally my opinion but doesnt some of the combat look "jerky"?  That isnt a really good word to describe what it looks like to me, maybe robotic.  I can only really see it with the jedi classes when they are using their lightsabers.  This conclusion is only drawn from watching the youtube videos.  i havnt acutally played the game so it may be different once Im behind the keyboard.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Antarious

 

*note*  I quoted what I did simply because it was rightfully pointed out the article was an opinion piece.   So I was mostly responding to that concept as opposed to anyone I quoted.

 

xxantiheroxx

In a way, I do agree that MMO combat has become a bit stale. It really is more about numbers and less about actual "skill". But, I do think some of the things mentioned like one hit kills is just plain retarded. Especially in an MMO where it's, you know, massively multiplayer.

 

Though when I see combat like GW2 that's a lot more action based and depends more on reaction timing and less on watching health bars and skill cds, and after playing Dragon Nest, I have to say that "Traditional" MMO combat could surely use an upgrade. I think GW2 is taking it in the right direction though, and we'll see how many others start to catch on and use more of a faster paced, action-packed style.

TheLizardbones

---

Originally posted by Saydien
When will people finally stop to judge the Jedi in this game by the standards of the movies? It's another era. Many things are different. As much as I am inclined to agree that combat could have been done a lot better I still can't help yawning at those "the vision of Jedi they implemented in their game doesn't suit me. This game sucks!" argument.I'm pretty certain that the benefit/burden of being a Jedi will be feelable at more than just one point throughout the story. Just because there maybe is no such rage bar it doesn't mean that there isn't the necessary depth of playing a deep role as Jedi.

---

People will stop doing that when the stop wanting to be a special snowflake, better than all the other snowflakes. And by that, I mean never.

erikk3189

Here's a thought.

All you guys who don't agree with the game should band together and make one yourselves. Think how much fun you'd have making Jedi's at your discretion.

Good luck with that.

xKingdomx

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by ktanner3

Sorry. Stopped reading when he said that all mmo combat sucks because it is too slow. Clearly this is a person that needs to stick to consoles and stay away from anything too complicated.

I have to say that was my initila gut reaction.

It essentially comes down to a person who is used to one type of combat and clearly is not willing to adapt to , or perhaps he is honest and just doesn't like mmo combat.

Can't you say the same for MMO combat lovers?

But it's an opinion piece nothign more or less.

me personally would always prefer looonger combat as there is a greater chance for someone to redeem themselves during combat. fast combat means that someone can just come in as gangbusters and completely mow over their opponent. if there is never a chance for the attacked to turn the tide, even small, then I dont' see that as fun.

 I do see value in letting people to 'redeem' themselves in combat, but making combat slower doesn't make much difference. If you some executed the perfect attack on you, you shouldn't have the chance to 'redeem' yourself, or that makes an unfair advantage against the attacker. So yeah, I would say, execution of combat is the key in your idea of 'redeem' themselves, but not to the point where you can just stand there for 10 sec and not die from attacks. The only scenario that I see fit for counterattack is if the attack make a mistake, to whatever degree game balances see fit to counter.

A lot of people seems to think action combat as FPS, it isn't. It simply means a faster pace of combat, where physical dodging and blocking is key to victory, not based on random percentile dicerolls. Take LoL or HoN for example, they still give you choice to build your character, change skills, but to make things more balance, they dont let you use 30 skills at once, and everyone is viable to win the battle. But in RPG, DPS is need to deal damage, healer is NEEDED to survive, and tank is just there to take damage.

There are A LOT of games with the traditional MMO combat, shouldn't it be time to expand the variety in MMO? I don't think every game requires the trinity to work, nor do they need heavy reliance on diceroll is to make effective combat.

Distopia

Originally posted by xKingdomx

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by ktanner3

Sorry. Stopped reading when he said that all mmo combat sucks because it is too slow. Clearly this is a person that needs to stick to consoles and stay away from anything too complicated.

I have to say that was my initila gut reaction.

It essentially comes down to a person who is used to one type of combat and clearly is not willing to adapt to , or perhaps he is honest and just doesn't like mmo combat.

Can't you say the same for MMO combat lovers?

But it's an opinion piece nothign more or less.

me personally would always prefer looonger combat as there is a greater chance for someone to redeem themselves during combat. fast combat means that someone can just come in as gangbusters and completely mow over their opponent. if there is never a chance for the attacked to turn the tide, even small, then I dont' see that as fun.

 I do see value in letting people to 'redeem' themselves in combat, but making combat slower doesn't make much difference. If you some executed the perfect attack on you, you shouldn't have the chance to 'redeem' yourself, or that makes an unfair advantage against the attacker. So yeah, I would say, execution of combat is the key in your idea of 'redeem' themselves, but not to the point where you can just stand there for 10 sec and not die from attacks. The only scenario that I see fit for counterattack is if the attack make a mistake, to whatever degree game balances see fit to counter.

A lot of people seems to think action combat as FPS, it isn't. It simply means a faster pace of combat, where physical dodging and blocking is key to victory, not based on random percentile dicerolls. Take LoL or HoN for example, they still give you choice to build your character, change skills, but to make things more balance, they dont let you use 30 skills at once, and everyone is viable to win the battle. But in RPG, DPS is need to deal damage, healer is NEEDED to survive, and tank is just there to take damage.

There are A LOT of games with the traditional MMO combat, shouldn't it be time to expand the variety in MMO? I don't think every game requires the trinity to work, nor do they need heavy reliance on diceroll is to make effective combat.

There are also a lot of games that don't use traditional mechanics coming out as well. Add those to the list already out there, and you see plenty of options that aren't traditional. FE, APB, Planetside, DDO, AOC, Darkfall, MO, DCUO, VIndictus, Dragonnest or whatever it's called, soon you'll also have GW2, Tera, Blade & Soul, Planetside 2, The new Trion MMO, The zombie labs MMO, Dust 514, etc.....

 

Cik_Asalin

Wait a minute. Wasn't it Bioware that banged the Generic drum, saying their intent is to deliver something familiar, in addition to Story?

 

So we have a generic, WoW-Like game, but with a Mass Effect-like story spindle.   From what I see, we're planned to get what Bioware planned to deliver.

Xondar123

Originally posted by ktanner3

Sorry. Stopped reading when he said that all mmo combat sucks because it is too slow. Clearly this is a person that needs to stick to consoles and stay away from anything too complicated.

And different MMOs tend to have different speeds of combat. City of Heroes has really fast combat, my paladin from vanilla WoW allowed me to alt-tab out of the game to read the forums while I was in combat.

Homitu

I agree with the others.  He lost his credibility to critique MMOs as soon as he said:

 

"I've lost count of the number of games where I can be pounding on a boss with one hand and reaching for a beverage (or a good book) with the other hand, all the while whittling down some ridiculously large health bar.  "Challenge," as it applies to MMO PvE, seems to equal "bump up the hit points," which thereby results in some of the most mind-numbingly boring gameplay I've ever experienced."

 

Clearly no MMO bosses have any mechanics at all.  Clearly you can just stand still and press 2 buttons for 10 minutes and defeat any MMO boss.  Clearly these games are so easy that every player clears all the content effortlessly and immediately, thereby eliminating all competition among guilds and servers.  

Right.  

waits1972

I think the reason they the game is set thousands of years before Vaders is because Jedi were common then.  They were not that unusual.  The author makes it sound like they are rare God-like creatures that were so few in number, that some questioned if they existed at all.  When, in reality,  the game is based on an epic war between two enormous groups of Jedi.

Man, it's hard to digest all these strong opinions on the game before it has even been released.  When it is released, and if it does fail, I think that would probobaly be the more appropriate time to discuss why it didn't work.  It's an RPG.  Dice rolls and stats have been a part of the experince since Dungeons and Dragons came in a box with dice and a booklet.  I'm not saying TOR is going to the best game ever made, I'm just saying it deserves a chance before it is disregarded.  

Xondar123

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

Wait a minute. Wasn't it Bioware that banged the Generic drum, saying their intent is to deliver something familiar, in addition to Story?

 

So we have a generic, WoW-Like game, but with a Mass Effect-like story spindle.   From what I see, we're planned to get what Bioware planned to deliver.

No, Bioware has never used the word "generic" to describe TOR to my knowledge.

Darkfalz89

I dont really understand people/article writers find that they need to judge games as if they were in the developer's point of view. Id like to see how well you could adapt all those concepts in a MMO while making the general public happy with them. Bioware develops the MMO using funds that are shoved down their throats by EA games and they make a successful MMO. Now dont get the words successful and "great" confused now. Thats the major mistake people make with replying to posts such as this. Successful usually means 3 things in the post WOW market:

1.Easy

2. Casual

3. Raids

 

See how those 3 things seem to mess with any pre-wow mmo vet/player (whatever you want to call yourself, i personally love "disgruntled vets" illl admit it.) logic as far as the original meaning of a MMO? Now don get me wrong,  Bioware's selling point in this game is voiced quests and personal story. This alone creates a memorable journey (if done right) and while its a going to be a very hard road for BW holding this promise, it can alone create a difference in the MMO genre. Like the OP said, there are a lot of concepts that BW could of done but it doesnt follow the 3 rules stated above = not as many potential subscribers = not successful. SWTOR has that and the fact its the only big AAA budget sci-fi MMO out there (and with SWG out of the picture that speaks even moreso for itself) and has personal and group storytelling. Oh i forgot 2 more things: Its bioware (what wrong can they do? Other than totally butcher a totally good RPG series; Dragon Age) and wait for it......wait for it.... ITS STAR WARS ZOMGBBQOHYEAH!!!!!)

In the end the things listed above are alone to let it strive in this market, regardless of all the disgruntled vets like myself that may naysay it all they want up and down. Im going to play it when it launches, im sure most of you asshats dogging the game will too. With the inclusion of a post relationship system I shall create a superbabe lesbian bounty hunter and board the roller coaster that is casual MMO GOODNESS!!!! Come at me bro.

Asheram

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by ktanner3

Sorry. Stopped reading when he said that all mmo combat sucks because it is too slow. Clearly this is a person that needs to stick to consoles and stay away from anything too complicated.

I have to say that was my initila gut reaction.

It essentially comes down to a person who is used to one type of combat and clearly is not willing to adapt to , or perhaps he is honest and just doesn't like mmo combat.

But it's an opinion piece nothign more or less.

me personally would always prefer looonger combat as there is a greater chance for someone to redeem themselves during combat. fast combat means that someone can just come in as gangbusters and completely mow over their opponent. if there is never a chance for the attacked to turn the tide, even small, then I dont' see that as fun.

 

 

Well the thing to me is if I want to read an opinion I'll come here.   We have all these wonderful threads full of opinions.

 

If someone is writing for a website I don't really care what their opinion is.   What I want from a "writer" is basic facts about a product.

 

Well it is a "free" site so they are welcome to have all the "opinions" that they want because they are paying the bill for their site.Doesnt mean everyone needs to agree with it either but also doesnt mean that they need to run their articles how you want them to be as well unless however you are paying for what you want to read.

Edit:I guess you also must have ignored the disclaimer at the start

Disclaimer: The Soapbox column is entirely the opinion of this week's writer and does not necessarily reflect the views of Massively as a whole. If you're afraid of opinions other than your own, you might want to skip this column"

artemisentr4

Originally posted by Chieftan

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09/13/the-soapbox-why-mmo-combat-sucks-and-how-bioware-couldve-made/#continued

 

Now in Bioware's defense I will say that they at least made storytelling central to the gameplay(something Lucas whiffed on in the prequels).  But as far as combat and class balance goes, I completely agree that Bioware could have and should have done something different than mimic generic MMO combat.

 

Being a jedi was supposed to take extensive training and discipline...it wasn't uncommon in older MMOs for some classes to start out relatively weak and blossom into a very powerful and critical roleplayer in the gameworld.  Whereas anybody could pick up a blaster and shoot, it should take some practice to wield a lightsaber AND the force in combat.  If that means leveling slower...so be it. 

 

Also a good jedi was supposed to not let anger and aggression motivate his actions...here was an opportunity to put in a "rage" bar that actually limits the way a jedi can engage in combat.  When that bar fills up, maybe you lose the ability to parry or block laser blasts for example.

 

In ROTJ especially you saw where Luke had to resolve situations without his lightsaber...relying only on his wits and the force to get through a problem.  That kind of restraint and situational discipline would have made more sense and could have worked in a game.

 

Maybe the jedi wouldn't be able to go on the same quests as everybody else all the time.  They're bound to a moral code so while maybe other classes would have a much broader path, the jedi would to have forgoe some of the opportunities open to other classes.

 

The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that Bioware took the easy way out and just copied the generic MMO combat model and really didn't put much effort into doing the jedi justice.

 

 

 

 

 

Blah......blah.......blah........ should have made KOTOR 3 instead of a MMO......blah.....blah.....blah

Blah......blah........blah......I hate Themepark MMOs......blah....blah....blah

blah.....blah....blah......they will make a ton of money.....blah.....blah.....blah

gets off soapbox. /end sarcasm

Metentso

Originally posted by Chieftan

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09/13/the-soapbox-why-mmo-combat-sucks-and-how-bioware-couldve-made/#continued

 

Now in Bioware's defense I will say that they at least made storytelling central to the gameplay(something Lucas whiffed on in the prequels).  But as far as combat and class balance goes, I completely agree that Bioware could have and should have done something different than mimic generic MMO combat.

 

Being a jedi was supposed to take extensive training and discipline...it wasn't uncommon in older MMOs for some classes to start out relatively weak and blossom into a very powerful and critical roleplayer in the gameworld.  Whereas anybody could pick up a blaster and shoot, it should take some practice to wield a lightsaber AND the force in combat.  If that means leveling slower...so be it. 

 

Also a good jedi was supposed to not let anger and aggression motivate his actions...here was an opportunity to put in a "rage" bar that actually limits the way a jedi can engage in combat.  When that bar fills up, maybe you lose the ability to parry or block laser blasts for example.

 

In ROTJ especially you saw where Luke had to resolve situations without his lightsaber...relying only on his wits and the force to get through a problem.  That kind of restraint and situational discipline would have made more sense and could have worked in a game.

 

Maybe the jedi wouldn't be able to go on the same quests as everybody else all the time.  They're bound to a moral code so while maybe other classes would have a much broader path, the jedi would to have forgoe some of the opportunities open to other classes.

 

The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that Bioware took the easy way out and just copied the generic MMO combat model and really didn't put much effort into doing the jedi justice.

That would be epic playing. But this demans lots of talent, imagination and investors ready to risk their money on unexplored grounds, three things that are inexistant in current MMO industry.

raistlinm

I went to massively once or twice over the years but didn't really like the set up of the site and to be honest it seems to be ran by people with an agenda that doesn't match my playstyle, my question to anyone who does know this site well is.  Is it just me or are they pretty much always trying to find something negative to say about TOR because the few times that sites name pop up here in regards to that game it always seems to be about something they don't like about the game.