Now in Bioware's defense I will say that they at least made storytelling central to the gameplay(something Lucas whiffed on in the prequels). But as far as combat and class balance goes, I completely agree that Bioware could have and should have done something different than mimic generic MMO combat.
Being a jedi was supposed to take extensive training and discipline...it wasn't uncommon in older MMOs for some classes to start out relatively weak and blossom into a very powerful and critical roleplayer in the gameworld. Whereas anybody could pick up a blaster and shoot, it should take some practice to wield a lightsaber AND the force in combat. If that means leveling slower...so be it.
Also a good jedi was supposed to not let anger and aggression motivate his actions...here was an opportunity to put in a "rage" bar that actually limits the way a jedi can engage in combat. When that bar fills up, maybe you lose the ability to parry or block laser blasts for example.
In ROTJ especially you saw where Luke had to resolve situations without his lightsaber...relying only on his wits and the force to get through a problem. That kind of restraint and situational discipline would have made more sense and could have worked in a game.
Maybe the jedi wouldn't be able to go on the same quests as everybody else all the time. They're bound to a moral code so while maybe other classes would have a much broader path, the jedi would to have forgoe some of the opportunities open to other classes.
The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that Bioware took the easy way out and just copied the generic MMO combat model and really didn't put much effort into doing the jedi justice.
That would be epic playing. But this demans lots of talent, imagination and investors ready to risk their money on unexplored grounds, three things that are inexistant in current MMO industry.
Yet GW2 is doing it and they hype is through the roof. Hell even WoW took something that wasnt (EQ) and applied their own talents and imagination to make it into the most successfull MMO ever.
Its not the funding that is the problem, its the developers who want to make the next greatest WoW killer. There is, even in this shitty economy, alot of investors willing to take a chance on soemthing that the crowd wants but the Dev's only see $$$$ in their eyes thinking thye can copy WoW pixel for pixel and tweak only a small percentage of it core gameplay. *cough* ToR *cough*.
SWToR could of been epic if it focused on innovation and great gameplay, but the sorry excuse of developers at that game saw the billions that WoW made and decided to make a copy and throw on their epic storytelling and call it a finished product.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I think the reason they the game is set thousands of years before Vaders is because Jedi were common then. They were not that unusual. The author makes it sound like they are rare God-like creatures that were so few in number, that some questioned if they existed at all. When, in reality, the game is based on an epic war between two enormous groups of Jedi.
Man, it's hard to digest all these strong opinions on the game before it has even been released. When it is released, and if it does fail, I think that would probobaly be the more appropriate time to discuss why it didn't work. It's an RPG. Dice rolls and stats have been a part of the experince since Dungeons and Dragons came in a box with dice and a booklet. I'm not saying TOR is going to the best game ever made, I'm just saying it deserves a chance before it is disregarded.
You're missing the point a little. And actually, even at the height of the Republic and Sith empires there were generally only a few thousands of Jedi...versus the trillions of souls across tends of thousands of planets. They were still a small percentage. And they had a power that could level cities. In videos we see Master-level Jedi tossing around star cruisers like toys, or going up against a small army solo and very likely winning. They wielded a weapon that could carve through something like 99% of all known materials And so hot it would insta-cauterize any wound. But as the writer mentions, a level 1 Jedi will be hacking at even as basic guard for a minute or two. Frankly, Jedi as they exist in the SW universe are too stupidly powerful to EVER be fair against any other potential class. Even as a barely trained initiate Luke could do serious damage. As a full-blown knight he walked into Jabba's palace and probably could have taken the place by himself if he had to. They just don't belong in MMOs. Heck, many of the NON-MMO Star Wars games they were in they still weren't portrayed with near the power they should ahve (Hello Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, KOTOR, etfc)
Moving on to the point of combat: Decent combat can NEVER exist in a multi-player environment. It's true. If you could 1-2 shot enemies, why have 5-25 people grouped up? The best you could do is flood them with hordes of enemies and let them duke it out, Dynasty Warriors style. Even then let me tell you it would get old fast.
I don't think there's a solution to the writer's woes about MMO combat. I don't think there can be, without breaking the idea of a online multiplayer game entirely.
That was truly a poorly conceived article. I'd be surprised if the author can see past the tip of his own nose. His inability to realize the implications of grafting a FPS or action-arcade style combat onto an MMORPG thats primarily PvE party based is pretty sad considering he writes for an MMO site.
"Faster combat" doesn't have to mean hyper twitch based FPS combat.
Look at Dragon Nest, Vindictus, Monster Hunter, TERA, AoC and GW2. All have faster paced combat that differs to varying degrees from WoW and TOR's standard MMO combat fare, but none of them feature uber twitchy gameplay.
Part of why I'm looking forward to GW2 is because I think it strikes the right balance. The combat is faster paced and has things like active dodging and the like, yet it also has tab targetting and no crosshair FPS aiming, and while the pace is faster than your typical WoW-type MMO, it doesn't even begin to approach the pace of a strait up action game like God of War or the twitch levels of an FPS like Quake.
Dragon's Nest does a good job of balancing things as well. It's not even remotely the pace of God of War or CoD, but it's more actiony and "twitchy" than standard MMO's that have you just standing around spamming action bar buttons until large health pools are drained.
The "faster combat" of Dragon's Nest (and pretty much every other "action" MMO from Asia) is basically this:
1) Round up cluster of mobs
2) Spam favorite attack until they're all dead
3) Spam pots as needed.
4) Repeat until you die of boredom
Reference my Dynasty Warriors comment. That's no better. I hear many good thigns abotu GW2 and I'm looking forward to it, but we'll see how it really plays out when we aren't seeing tailored demos. Also based on the pvp video I saw pvp combat does not appear too much more tactical or quick-paced. Although I hope it will be.
The "faster combat" of Dragon's Nest (and pretty much every other "action" MMO from Asia) is basically this:
1) Round up cluster of mobs
2) Spam favorite attack until they're all dead
3) Spam pots as needed.
4) Repeat until you die of boredom
Reference my Dynasty Warriors comment. That's no better. I hear many good thigns abotu GW2 and I'm looking forward to it, but we'll see how it really plays out when we aren't seeing tailored demos. Also based on the pvp video I saw pvp combat does not appear too much more tactical or quick-paced. Although I hope it will be.
Yeah agree not sure why people are always invoking the name of GW2 when we know less about that game than we do TOR. At the end of the day to me though you are still pushing buttons after you've done it a thousand times I'm not too sure how "innovative" it will be.
The "faster combat" of Dragon's Nest (and pretty much every other "action" MMO from Asia) is basically this:
1) Round up cluster of mobs
2) Spam favorite attack until they're all dead
3) Spam pots as needed.
4) Repeat until you die of boredom
Reference my Dynasty Warriors comment. That's no better. I hear many good thigns abotu GW2 and I'm looking forward to it, but we'll see how it really plays out when we aren't seeing tailored demos. Also based on the pvp video I saw pvp combat does not appear too much more tactical or quick-paced. Although I hope it will be.
Maybe it's just because I haven't played it long enough, but the active dodge, aiming, and combos have been much more interesting and enjoyable (though certainly not without some faults) than your typical "stand here and spam 123 until the mob dies" combat of other MMO's. And the cooldowns have prevented me from spamming "my favorite attack." At level 10 I used about 7-8 abilities in larger fights and 3-4 in smaller ones.
Wait a minute. Wasn't it Bioware that banged the Generic drum, saying their intent is to deliver something familiar, in addition to Story?
So we have a generic, WoW-Like game, but with a Mass Effect-like story spindle. From what I see, we're planned to get what Bioware planned to deliver.
Even though most who have done an ounce of research know it is MUCH more than what you described, even if you were accurate, would it be so bad to finally have a game with a Mass Effect like story spindle that delivers quests that people actually care about and do more than click accept? Maybe you prefer the click, accept, ignore story, rinse, repeat gaming that they are trying to change?
You're missing the point a little. And actually, even at the height of the Republic and Sith empires there were generally only a few thousands of Jedi...versus the trillions of souls across tends of thousands of planets. They were still a small percentage. And they had a power that could level cities. In videos we see Master-level Jedi tossing around star cruisers like toys, or going up against a small army solo and very likely winning. They wielded a weapon that could carve through something like 99% of all known materials And so hot it would insta-cauterize any wound. But as the writer mentions, a level 1 Jedi will be hacking at even as basic guard for a minute or two. Frankly, Jedi as they exist in the SW universe are too stupidly powerful to EVER be fair against any other potential class. Even as a barely trained initiate Luke could do serious damage. As a full-blown knight he walked into Jabba's palace and probably could have taken the place by himself if he had to. They just don't belong in MMOs. Heck, many of the NON-MMO Star Wars games they were in they still weren't portrayed with near the power they should ahve (Hello Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, KOTOR, etfc)
I have to disagree with you a little here. Jedi as powerful as you describe were rare, and most fans of the lore can name them easily. The vast majority of them were far less powerful than Luke, Vader, Yoda, and Palpatine. In fact, one of the Jedi's most feared enemies was a droid. It was called a droideka, and all most jedi could hope to do against it was to hold it off.
Also, Luke would have been hard pressed to defeat Boba Fett at that stage of his training in a straight up fight, much less the whole palace. I won't bore you with any more details except to say that a lot of the books have painted the Jedi out to be WAY to powerful. I mean they could even use the force to project a different face to those they passed, let alone the fact that it took a weak mind for Obi-Wan to convince someone that "These are not the droids you're looking for." I mean honestly, they would let ANYONE write a New Jedi Order novel.
That was truly a poorly conceived article. I'd be surprised if the author can see past the tip of his own nose. His inability to realize the implications of grafting a FPS or action-arcade style combat onto an MMORPG thats primarily PvE party based is pretty sad considering he writes for an MMO site.
I dont quite understand your arguement basically because there are MMO's in the works that will be FPS styled combat,Defiance from Trion for starters and Planetside 2 so to state something like "why is he writing for an MMO site" because he is writing about FPS style combat is a bit unfair IMO.It isnt really a matter of it couldnt be done because it is being done but more of a matter of Bioware chose to do it different.Now if they had made SWTOR combat more fps like I would have pre-ordered from the get go.
Wait a minute. Wasn't it Bioware that banged the Generic drum, saying their intent is to deliver something familiar, in addition to Story?
So we have a generic, WoW-Like game, but with a Mass Effect-like story spindle. From what I see, we're planned to get what Bioware planned to deliver.
Even though most who have done an ounce of research know it is MUCH more than what you described, even if you were accurate, would it be so bad to finally have a game with a Mass Effect like story spindle that delivers quests that people actually care about and do more than click accept? Maybe you prefer the click, accept, ignore story, rinse, repeat gaming that they are trying to change?
Not trying to agree that this is something that Cik is looking for but I for one am not and agree it isn't a bad thing that they are making something more engaging than click,accpet,ignore story etc.
Often other gamers seem afraid to even ask that question "how many people just want more depth to their stories and have no problem with current gameplay if they did I think it would break peoples hearts because they would learn just how alone they are in their need for "innovation" some people just want evolution and don't need a game to try and reinvent the wheel.
I agree with the article's point, which really had less to do with Swtor and more to do with mmo combat being boring.
I thought it was pretty unfair to target Swtor in this regard though. It would have been better for him to reference already existing games that have been released as examples instead of a game thats not even out yet.
I dont mind the dice rolling system too much, but I sure wish mmos would stylishly spice up the animations for combat a little. When I see a gnome warrior fighting a Tauren, I want to see the gnome realistically win. Such as the little guy climbing up the Taurens back and stabbing him in the neck during combat. Or using his sword to climb half way up the front of the Tauren and stab at the chest.
Instead all I see is two avatars swinging swords at each other. I want to see more parrys, more blocks. Combat should at least LOOK like combat. That is if you just have to use the dice system. And in that regard I think Swtor might be doing slightly more than some other mmos, at least with melee combat. Melee fighting looks slightly a step up from past mmos.
I dont think its as much as I would like, but its better. So again Im not sure why TOR was targeted here. That alone is in bad taste in my opinion even though I liked the article. I just think he used a poor example being as the game isnt even released yet. Kind of unfair in my opinion. You cant exactly credibly knock a games gameplay before its been, you know, released.
I agree with the article's point, which really had less to do with Swtor and more to do with mmo combat being boring.
I thought it was pretty unfair to target Swtor in this regard though. It would have been better for him to reference already existing games that have been released as examples instead of a game thats not even out yet.
I dont mind the dice rolling system too much, but I sure wish mmos would stylishly spice up the animations for combat a little. When I see a gnome warrior fighting a Tauren, I want to see the gnome realistically win. Such as the little guy climbing up the Taurens back and stabbing him in the neck during combat. Or using his sword to climb half way up the front of the Tauren and stab at the chest.
Instead all I see is two avatars swinging swords at each other. I want to see more parrys, more blocks. Combat should at least LOOK like combat. That is if you just have to use the dice system. And in that regard I think Swtor might be doing slightly more than some other mmos, at least with melee combat. Melee fighting looks slightly a step up from past mmos.
I dont think its as much as I would like, but its better. So again Im not sure why TOR was targeted here. That alone is in bad taste in my opinion even though I liked the article. I just think he used a poor example being as the game isnt even released yet. Kind of unfair in my opinion. You cant exactly credibly knock a games gameplay before its been, you know, released.
Well I really wouldnt see it as too unfair though targeting SWTOR in that respect though because isnt it being marketed now as "The last Big budget MMO" or was that just a news article from this site?I didnt really read the article I just remember seeing the title and thought I heard the statement as coming from someone from SWTOR itself.
And even in this video documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRC8exLv2lw they are claiming that they are changing combat when the truth is they are not it is the same as any other dice rolling mmo but with a different skin.Every other mmo has different skills for different classes and what not with the players needing to choose the best time to use the appropriate skill,but the way they talked about it you would think it was never done before.
Wait a minute. Wasn't it Bioware that banged the Generic drum, saying their intent is to deliver something familiar, in addition to Story?
So we have a generic, WoW-Like game, but with a Mass Effect-like story spindle. From what I see, we're planned to get what Bioware planned to deliver.
Even though most who have done an ounce of research know it is MUCH more than what you described, even if you were accurate, would it be so bad to finally have a game with a Mass Effect like story spindle that delivers quests that people actually care about and do more than click accept? Maybe you prefer the click, accept, ignore story, rinse, repeat gaming that they are trying to change?
Not trying to agree that this is something that Cik is looking for but I for one am not and agree it isn't a bad thing that they are making something more engaging than click,accpet,ignore story etc.
Often other gamers seem afraid to even ask that question "how many people just want more depth to their stories and have no problem with current gameplay if they did I think it would break peoples hearts because they would learn just how alone they are in their need for "innovation" some people just want evolution and don't need a game to try and reinvent the wheel.
Agreed. I am actually one of those people. 18 is a birthday that is far behind me and I'd much rather immerse myself in a good story that offers familiar gameplay that is more strategy and less twitch. I appreciate well thought out systems, and even active combat, though. AoC, for example, while fun, forced me to be out of combat to reply to a tell. With a game that I spend that much time playing, I'd rather have a combat system that allows me to veg out and beat up baddies while chatting with friends and enjoying life, yet still offers unique challenges in other gameplay aspects. In my experience, a more traditional style combat in my MMOs does this far better than a very active one.
I agree with the article's point, which really had less to do with Swtor and more to do with mmo combat being boring.
I thought it was pretty unfair to target Swtor in this regard though. It would have been better for him to reference already existing games that have been released as examples instead of a game thats not even out yet.
I dont mind the dice rolling system too much, but I sure wish mmos would stylishly spice up the animations for combat a little. When I see a gnome warrior fighting a Tauren, I want to see the gnome realistically win. Such as the little guy climbing up the Taurens back and stabbing him in the neck during combat. Or using his sword to climb half way up the front of the Tauren and stab at the chest.
Instead all I see is two avatars swinging swords at each other. I want to see more parrys, more blocks. Combat should at least LOOK like combat. That is if you just have to use the dice system. And in that regard I think Swtor might be doing slightly more than some other mmos, at least with melee combat. Melee fighting looks slightly a step up from past mmos.
I dont think its as much as I would like, but its better. So again Im not sure why TOR was targeted here. That alone is in bad taste in my opinion even though I liked the article. I just think he used a poor example being as the game isnt even released yet. Kind of unfair in my opinion. You cant exactly credibly knock a games gameplay before its been, you know, released.
I felt like a fish out of water because I thought the same thing in regards to combat videos I've seen (haven't played beta yet) TOR seems to do a much better job than many of the games I've already seen at making the fights look somewhat realistic, I haven't seen fights full of people shrugging off laser blasts or ignoring too many lightsabre strikes (though in fairness I've seen it some) but in my opinion they have done a much better job than any SOE game I've ever played or WOW or my favorite right now LOTRO.
Now in Bioware's defense I will say that they at least made storytelling central to the gameplay(something Lucas whiffed on in the prequels). But as far as combat and class balance goes, I completely agree that Bioware could have and should have done something different than mimic generic MMO combat.
Being a jedi was supposed to take extensive training and discipline...it wasn't uncommon in older MMOs for some classes to start out relatively weak and blossom into a very powerful and critical roleplayer in the gameworld. Whereas anybody could pick up a blaster and shoot, it should take some practice to wield a lightsaber AND the force in combat. If that means leveling slower...so be it.
Also a good jedi was supposed to not let anger and aggression motivate his actions...here was an opportunity to put in a "rage" bar that actually limits the way a jedi can engage in combat. When that bar fills up, maybe you lose the ability to parry or block laser blasts for example.
In ROTJ especially you saw where Luke had to resolve situations without his lightsaber...relying only on his wits and the force to get through a problem. That kind of restraint and situational discipline would have made more sense and could have worked in a game.
Maybe the jedi wouldn't be able to go on the same quests as everybody else all the time. They're bound to a moral code so while maybe other classes would have a much broader path, the jedi would to have forgoe some of the opportunities open to other classes.
The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that Bioware took the easy way out and just copied the generic MMO combat model and really didn't put much effort into doing the jedi justice.
How does training fit with the combat style? Whats the point of going through the training if it is not for story. If there was a training phase to the game from the very beginning it would involve tings outside of the class, which would mean even other classes would have similar beginnings and thier initiation would be out of thier class. So by having a class story you already jump to a certain piont in the story, and then by having a certain combat style you get to use the story in different ways. So you can see the early part of the game as an initiation if you want to look at it like that. Or you can see at as someone who is force senstiive and chosen for that role and quickly picked up those basic skills of parrying, and striking with the lightsaber. Since to have an initiation would mean you have training duels to practice new moves to show to your master that you have mastered them. A quest and accomplishing certain goals outside of duels has the same effect. Also as far as we know they might have training involved that requires practise duels to show our skills. However practising parrying, and striking is pointless since those are automatic. It would be as if having training for running, and jumping, they don't need to do that.
The slower progression would be unfair. What would be the tradeoff, more power or just the title? That is just adding a grind which is not fair. Also by adding more content and disguising the grind means the devs put more work into the Jedi classes which is unfair and might make more people interested in something that sounds like there is more work gone into compared to ther other classes.
As for the difference quests, and being Jedi, it is always about freedom. If they do not have the freedom to prove they are something, then they are nothing about that idea. There has to be freedom to show that they are Jedi. Jedi have to deal with reality of making good and bad decisions. So to make it real the players get the same choice. This way players get to see and feel the life and decsions of a light sided jedi vs dark sided jedi. So there has to be freedom or it would be very very linear, and lose the feel of showing us something about how Jedi's feel.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I have been trying to get excited about this game. It has all of the makings of the next great MMO. But the OP reminds me that this is LOTRO all over again. So many non-gamer, lore-loving fanbois. I threw up in my mouth the second time he/she mentioned what a Jedi was "suppossed" to be like. Like a Jedi was a real thing. Holy christ am I not playing this.
You know, I think the root of the issue people have with swtor's combat is essentially that the Star Wars universe, as it is presented in the movies, simply does not mesh well with the WOW model.
Star wars has no healers, no tanks, Jedis are insanely more powerful than your average soldier, etc. etc. So when BW made the call to use the WOW model, they had to alter a lot of things to make Star Wars "fit" into the WoW model.
Personally....I would have preferred to see something different and original that fit more into the Star Wars universe. But I understand why BW did what they did. MMORPGs are new ground for them. Making a system that breaks the mold of the leading mmorpg is a big risk, and probably one they werent willing to take.
I have been trying to get excited about this game. It has all of the makings of the next great MMO. But the OP reminds me that this is LOTRO all over again. So many non-gamer, lore-loving fanbois. I threw up in my mouth the second time he/she mentioned what a Jedi was "suppossed" to be like. Like a Jedi was a real thing. Holy christ am I not playing this.
My experience especially from reading comments on this site is the opposite of what you say the people who make these stupid comments aren't truly fans of the ip they are fans of the films which is a big difference there are six films that cover the span of maybe forty years of an ip that has thousands of years to draw upon trust me when I say (or read some of the other threads here) the people who are truly into the ip of star wars don't try and pigeon hole the ip into the constraints of a movie.
And honestly alot of the naysayers of this game trully still try to find anything negative to say whether it's because they want a sandbox,innovation ala GW2 or just because it's cool to go along with all the hating that goes on.
All I got out of the OP is that they don't know anything about Star Wars. Why would a Jedi not be able to use force powers because they were angry? Sith do it all the time. Being pissed doesn't effect you're ability to use the force you just going to go dark side if you do. Also the Jedi have a strict moral code but that doesn't mean they don't get to make their own choices. Why limit what quests they can go on. Jedi can be just as evil as Sith if they travel down that path.
I've always though combat in MMOs was slow to a certain extent, but I agree that the OP should stick to console games and not infest MMOs will more console scum than already exists.
As far as the Jedi statements, I agree with him on principle, but disagree with him on substance. It makes no sense from a lore perspective for Jedi to be murderous savages, and they should be governed by higher morals and standards than Sith. However, if developers institute some system to force Jedi to play in this way, it would restrict and penalize gameply for the Jedi. The result? Fewer of TORs audience would play as Jedi.
You must understand who is the demographic for TOR, it is not older and mature gamers. Its the fifteen year old with too much time on his hands, and daddy's credit card in hand. This demographic is not interested in the "moral highground", they are interested in killing everything that moves and then tea-bagging them - the 'Instant Gratification'. Because of this, the OPs design philosophy as it relates to Jedi, simply will not work in TOR.
Now if your addressing a mature playerbase and an old school MMORPG, what the OP suggests will work just fine. This generation of gamers are more accepting towards the given rules of "social gaming", and have far more patience towards solving problems and achieving goals. And when I say social gaming, I don't mean social media. Not every game has been about killing things, sometimes there is more reward in not killing.
I've always though combat in MMOs was slow to a certain extent, but I agree that the OP should stick to console games and not infest MMOs will more console scum than already exists. As far as the Jedi statements, I agree with him on principle, but disagree with him on substance. It makes no sense from a lore perspective for Jedi to be murderous savages, and they should be governed by higher morals and standards than Sith. However, if developers institute some system to force Jedi to play in this way, it would restrict and penalize gameply for the Jedi. The result? Fewer of TORs audience would play as Jedi. You must understand who is the demographic for TOR, it is not older and mature gamers. Its the fifteen year old with too much time on his hands, and daddy's credit card in hand. This demographic is not interested in the "moral highground", they are interested in killing everything that moves and then tea-bagging them - the 'Instant Gratification'. Because of this, the OPs design philosophy as it relates to Jedi, simply will not work in TOR. Now if your addressing a mature playerbase and an old school MMORPG, what the OP suggests will work just fine. This generation of gamers are more accepting towards the given rules of "social gaming", and have far more patience towards solving problems and achieving goals. And when I say social gaming, I don't mean social media. Not every game has been about killing things, sometimes there is more reward in not killing.
You do realize that fps games started on the PC right? It wasnt until N64 that they were remotely popular on consoles. So just because someone likes fast paced combat does not make them "console scum."
I've always though combat in MMOs was slow to a certain extent, but I agree that the OP should stick to console games and not infest MMOs will more console scum than already exists.
As far as the Jedi statements, I agree with him on principle, but disagree with him on substance. It makes no sense from a lore perspective for Jedi to be murderous savages, and they should be governed by higher morals and standards than Sith. However, if developers institute some system to force Jedi to play in this way, it would restrict and penalize gameply for the Jedi. The result? Fewer of TORs audience would play as Jedi.
You must understand who is the demographic for TOR, it is not older and mature gamers. Its the fifteen year old with too much time on his hands, and daddy's credit card in hand. This demographic is not interested in the "moral highground", they are interested in killing everything that moves and then tea-bagging them - the 'Instant Gratification'. Because of this, the OPs design philosophy as it relates to Jedi, simply will not work in TOR.
Isnt this pretty much the demographic of "console gamers"?
Now if your addressing a mature playerbase and an old school MMORPG, what the OP suggests will work just fine. This generation of gamers are more accepting towards the given rules of "social gaming", and have far more patience towards solving problems and achieving goals. And when I say social gaming, I don't mean social media. Not every game has been about killing things, sometimes there is more reward in not killing.
I think the reason they the game is set thousands of years before Vaders is because Jedi were common then. They were not that unusual. The author makes it sound like they are rare God-like creatures that were so few in number, that some questioned if they existed at all. When, in reality, the game is based on an epic war between two enormous groups of Jedi.
Man, it's hard to digest all these strong opinions on the game before it has even been released. When it is released, and if it does fail, I think that would probobaly be the more appropriate time to discuss why it didn't work. It's an RPG. Dice rolls and stats have been a part of the experince since Dungeons and Dragons came in a box with dice and a booklet. I'm not saying TOR is going to the best game ever made, I'm just saying it deserves a chance before it is disregarded.
You're missing the point a little. And actually, even at the height of the Republic and Sith empires there were generally only a few thousands of Jedi...versus the trillions of souls across tends of thousands of planets. They were still a small percentage. And they had a power that could level cities. In videos we see Master-level Jedi tossing around star cruisers like toys, or going up against a small army solo and very likely winning. They wielded a weapon that could carve through something like 99% of all known materials And so hot it would insta-cauterize any wound. But as the writer mentions, a level 1 Jedi will be hacking at even as basic guard for a minute or two. Frankly, Jedi as they exist in the SW universe are too stupidly powerful to EVER be fair against any other potential class. Even as a barely trained initiate Luke could do serious damage. As a full-blown knight he walked into Jabba's palace and probably could have taken the place by himself if he had to. They just don't belong in MMOs. Heck, many of the NON-MMO Star Wars games they were in they still weren't portrayed with near the power they should ahve (Hello Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, KOTOR, etfc)
Moving on to the point of combat: Decent combat can NEVER exist in a multi-player environment. It's true. If you could 1-2 shot enemies, why have 5-25 people grouped up? The best you could do is flood them with hordes of enemies and let them duke it out, Dynasty Warriors style. Even then let me tell you it would get old fast.
I don't think there's a solution to the writer's woes about MMO combat. I don't think there can be, without breaking the idea of a online multiplayer game entirely.
Yeah, I read over the article again and I did miss the point. However, I still insist that the time period they are framing the game around is much better suited for Jedi than Galaxies was. And, come on, people want to play a Jedi. It's a game. Star Wars is a piece of fiction and not meant to be taken literally. Of course Jedi belong in the game! This is entertainment. Give the people what they want. Bend the rules if you have to. On this matter, I think you may be missing the point a little. Fiction. Game. Fun. I once saw a man leave the movie theatre disgusted at Jackson's relatively loose translation of Lord of the Rings. That guy missed a great movie.
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Yet GW2 is doing it and they hype is through the roof. Hell even WoW took something that wasnt (EQ) and applied their own talents and imagination to make it into the most successfull MMO ever.
Its not the funding that is the problem, its the developers who want to make the next greatest WoW killer. There is, even in this shitty economy, alot of investors willing to take a chance on soemthing that the crowd wants but the Dev's only see $$$$ in their eyes thinking thye can copy WoW pixel for pixel and tweak only a small percentage of it core gameplay. *cough* ToR *cough*.
SWToR could of been epic if it focused on innovation and great gameplay, but the sorry excuse of developers at that game saw the billions that WoW made and decided to make a copy and throw on their epic storytelling and call it a finished product.
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You're missing the point a little. And actually, even at the height of the Republic and Sith empires there were generally only a few thousands of Jedi...versus the trillions of souls across tends of thousands of planets. They were still a small percentage. And they had a power that could level cities. In videos we see Master-level Jedi tossing around star cruisers like toys, or going up against a small army solo and very likely winning. They wielded a weapon that could carve through something like 99% of all known materials And so hot it would insta-cauterize any wound. But as the writer mentions, a level 1 Jedi will be hacking at even as basic guard for a minute or two. Frankly, Jedi as they exist in the SW universe are too stupidly powerful to EVER be fair against any other potential class. Even as a barely trained initiate Luke could do serious damage. As a full-blown knight he walked into Jabba's palace and probably could have taken the place by himself if he had to. They just don't belong in MMOs. Heck, many of the NON-MMO Star Wars games they were in they still weren't portrayed with near the power they should ahve (Hello Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, KOTOR, etfc)
Moving on to the point of combat: Decent combat can NEVER exist in a multi-player environment. It's true. If you could 1-2 shot enemies, why have 5-25 people grouped up? The best you could do is flood them with hordes of enemies and let them duke it out, Dynasty Warriors style. Even then let me tell you it would get old fast.
I don't think there's a solution to the writer's woes about MMO combat. I don't think there can be, without breaking the idea of a online multiplayer game entirely.
That was truly a poorly conceived article. I'd be surprised if the author can see past the tip of his own nose. His inability to realize the implications of grafting a FPS or action-arcade style combat onto an MMORPG thats primarily PvE party based is pretty sad considering he writes for an MMO site.
"Faster combat" doesn't have to mean hyper twitch based FPS combat.
Look at Dragon Nest, Vindictus, Monster Hunter, TERA, AoC and GW2. All have faster paced combat that differs to varying degrees from WoW and TOR's standard MMO combat fare, but none of them feature uber twitchy gameplay.
Part of why I'm looking forward to GW2 is because I think it strikes the right balance. The combat is faster paced and has things like active dodging and the like, yet it also has tab targetting and no crosshair FPS aiming, and while the pace is faster than your typical WoW-type MMO, it doesn't even begin to approach the pace of a strait up action game like God of War or the twitch levels of an FPS like Quake.
Dragon's Nest does a good job of balancing things as well. It's not even remotely the pace of God of War or CoD, but it's more actiony and "twitchy" than standard MMO's that have you just standing around spamming action bar buttons until large health pools are drained.
The "faster combat" of Dragon's Nest (and pretty much every other "action" MMO from Asia) is basically this:
1) Round up cluster of mobs
2) Spam favorite attack until they're all dead
3) Spam pots as needed.
4) Repeat until you die of boredom
Reference my Dynasty Warriors comment. That's no better. I hear many good thigns abotu GW2 and I'm looking forward to it, but we'll see how it really plays out when we aren't seeing tailored demos. Also based on the pvp video I saw pvp combat does not appear too much more tactical or quick-paced. Although I hope it will be.
Yeah agree not sure why people are always invoking the name of GW2 when we know less about that game than we do TOR. At the end of the day to me though you are still pushing buttons after you've done it a thousand times I'm not too sure how "innovative" it will be.
Maybe it's just because I haven't played it long enough, but the active dodge, aiming, and combos have been much more interesting and enjoyable (though certainly not without some faults) than your typical "stand here and spam 123 until the mob dies" combat of other MMO's. And the cooldowns have prevented me from spamming "my favorite attack." At level 10 I used about 7-8 abilities in larger fights and 3-4 in smaller ones.
Even though most who have done an ounce of research know it is MUCH more than what you described, even if you were accurate, would it be so bad to finally have a game with a Mass Effect like story spindle that delivers quests that people actually care about and do more than click accept? Maybe you prefer the click, accept, ignore story, rinse, repeat gaming that they are trying to change?
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I dont quite understand your arguement basically because there are MMO's in the works that will be FPS styled combat,Defiance from Trion for starters and Planetside 2 so to state something like "why is he writing for an MMO site" because he is writing about FPS style combat is a bit unfair IMO.It isnt really a matter of it couldnt be done because it is being done but more of a matter of Bioware chose to do it different.Now if they had made SWTOR combat more fps like I would have pre-ordered from the get go.
Not trying to agree that this is something that Cik is looking for but I for one am not and agree it isn't a bad thing that they are making something more engaging than click,accpet,ignore story etc.
Often other gamers seem afraid to even ask that question "how many people just want more depth to their stories and have no problem with current gameplay if they did I think it would break peoples hearts because they would learn just how alone they are in their need for "innovation" some people just want evolution and don't need a game to try and reinvent the wheel.
I agree with the article's point, which really had less to do with Swtor and more to do with mmo combat being boring.
I thought it was pretty unfair to target Swtor in this regard though. It would have been better for him to reference already existing games that have been released as examples instead of a game thats not even out yet.
I dont mind the dice rolling system too much, but I sure wish mmos would stylishly spice up the animations for combat a little. When I see a gnome warrior fighting a Tauren, I want to see the gnome realistically win. Such as the little guy climbing up the Taurens back and stabbing him in the neck during combat. Or using his sword to climb half way up the front of the Tauren and stab at the chest.
Instead all I see is two avatars swinging swords at each other. I want to see more parrys, more blocks. Combat should at least LOOK like combat. That is if you just have to use the dice system. And in that regard I think Swtor might be doing slightly more than some other mmos, at least with melee combat. Melee fighting looks slightly a step up from past mmos.
I dont think its as much as I would like, but its better. So again Im not sure why TOR was targeted here. That alone is in bad taste in my opinion even though I liked the article. I just think he used a poor example being as the game isnt even released yet. Kind of unfair in my opinion. You cant exactly credibly knock a games gameplay before its been, you know, released.
swtor combat is not slow so i dont know what hes talkin about...
Well I really wouldnt see it as too unfair though targeting SWTOR in that respect though because isnt it being marketed now as "The last Big budget MMO" or was that just a news article from this site?I didnt really read the article I just remember seeing the title and thought I heard the statement as coming from someone from SWTOR itself.
And even in this video documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRC8exLv2lw they are claiming that they are changing combat when the truth is they are not it is the same as any other dice rolling mmo but with a different skin.Every other mmo has different skills for different classes and what not with the players needing to choose the best time to use the appropriate skill,but the way they talked about it you would think it was never done before.
Agreed. I am actually one of those people. 18 is a birthday that is far behind me and I'd much rather immerse myself in a good story that offers familiar gameplay that is more strategy and less twitch. I appreciate well thought out systems, and even active combat, though. AoC, for example, while fun, forced me to be out of combat to reply to a tell. With a game that I spend that much time playing, I'd rather have a combat system that allows me to veg out and beat up baddies while chatting with friends and enjoying life, yet still offers unique challenges in other gameplay aspects. In my experience, a more traditional style combat in my MMOs does this far better than a very active one.
I felt like a fish out of water because I thought the same thing in regards to combat videos I've seen (haven't played beta yet) TOR seems to do a much better job than many of the games I've already seen at making the fights look somewhat realistic, I haven't seen fights full of people shrugging off laser blasts or ignoring too many lightsabre strikes (though in fairness I've seen it some) but in my opinion they have done a much better job than any SOE game I've ever played or WOW or my favorite right now LOTRO.
How does training fit with the combat style? Whats the point of going through the training if it is not for story. If there was a training phase to the game from the very beginning it would involve tings outside of the class, which would mean even other classes would have similar beginnings and thier initiation would be out of thier class. So by having a class story you already jump to a certain piont in the story, and then by having a certain combat style you get to use the story in different ways. So you can see the early part of the game as an initiation if you want to look at it like that. Or you can see at as someone who is force senstiive and chosen for that role and quickly picked up those basic skills of parrying, and striking with the lightsaber. Since to have an initiation would mean you have training duels to practice new moves to show to your master that you have mastered them. A quest and accomplishing certain goals outside of duels has the same effect. Also as far as we know they might have training involved that requires practise duels to show our skills. However practising parrying, and striking is pointless since those are automatic. It would be as if having training for running, and jumping, they don't need to do that.
The slower progression would be unfair. What would be the tradeoff, more power or just the title? That is just adding a grind which is not fair. Also by adding more content and disguising the grind means the devs put more work into the Jedi classes which is unfair and might make more people interested in something that sounds like there is more work gone into compared to ther other classes.
As for the difference quests, and being Jedi, it is always about freedom. If they do not have the freedom to prove they are something, then they are nothing about that idea. There has to be freedom to show that they are Jedi. Jedi have to deal with reality of making good and bad decisions. So to make it real the players get the same choice. This way players get to see and feel the life and decsions of a light sided jedi vs dark sided jedi. So there has to be freedom or it would be very very linear, and lose the feel of showing us something about how Jedi's feel.
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I have been trying to get excited about this game. It has all of the makings of the next great MMO. But the OP reminds me that this is LOTRO all over again. So many non-gamer, lore-loving fanbois. I threw up in my mouth the second time he/she mentioned what a Jedi was "suppossed" to be like. Like a Jedi was a real thing. Holy christ am I not playing this.
Star wars has no healers, no tanks, Jedis are insanely more powerful than your average soldier, etc. etc. So when BW made the call to use the WOW model, they had to alter a lot of things to make Star Wars "fit" into the WoW model.
Personally....I would have preferred to see something different and original that fit more into the Star Wars universe. But I understand why BW did what they did. MMORPGs are new ground for them. Making a system that breaks the mold of the leading mmorpg is a big risk, and probably one they werent willing to take.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
My experience especially from reading comments on this site is the opposite of what you say the people who make these stupid comments aren't truly fans of the ip they are fans of the films which is a big difference there are six films that cover the span of maybe forty years of an ip that has thousands of years to draw upon trust me when I say (or read some of the other threads here) the people who are truly into the ip of star wars don't try and pigeon hole the ip into the constraints of a movie.
And honestly alot of the naysayers of this game trully still try to find anything negative to say whether it's because they want a sandbox,innovation ala GW2 or just because it's cool to go along with all the hating that goes on.
All I got out of the OP is that they don't know anything about Star Wars. Why would a Jedi not be able to use force powers because they were angry? Sith do it all the time. Being pissed doesn't effect you're ability to use the force you just going to go dark side if you do. Also the Jedi have a strict moral code but that doesn't mean they don't get to make their own choices. Why limit what quests they can go on. Jedi can be just as evil as Sith if they travel down that path.
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I've always though combat in MMOs was slow to a certain extent, but I agree that the OP should stick to console games and not infest MMOs will more console scum than already exists.
As far as the Jedi statements, I agree with him on principle, but disagree with him on substance. It makes no sense from a lore perspective for Jedi to be murderous savages, and they should be governed by higher morals and standards than Sith. However, if developers institute some system to force Jedi to play in this way, it would restrict and penalize gameply for the Jedi. The result? Fewer of TORs audience would play as Jedi.
You must understand who is the demographic for TOR, it is not older and mature gamers. Its the fifteen year old with too much time on his hands, and daddy's credit card in hand. This demographic is not interested in the "moral highground", they are interested in killing everything that moves and then tea-bagging them - the 'Instant Gratification'. Because of this, the OPs design philosophy as it relates to Jedi, simply will not work in TOR.
Now if your addressing a mature playerbase and an old school MMORPG, what the OP suggests will work just fine. This generation of gamers are more accepting towards the given rules of "social gaming", and have far more patience towards solving problems and achieving goals. And when I say social gaming, I don't mean social media. Not every game has been about killing things, sometimes there is more reward in not killing.
You do realize that fps games started on the PC right? It wasnt until N64 that they were remotely popular on consoles. So just because someone likes fast paced combat does not make them "console scum."Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yeah, I read over the article again and I did miss the point. However, I still insist that the time period they are framing the game around is much better suited for Jedi than Galaxies was. And, come on, people want to play a Jedi. It's a game. Star Wars is a piece of fiction and not meant to be taken literally. Of course Jedi belong in the game! This is entertainment. Give the people what they want. Bend the rules if you have to. On this matter, I think you may be missing the point a little. Fiction. Game. Fun. I once saw a man leave the movie theatre disgusted at Jackson's relatively loose translation of Lord of the Rings. That guy missed a great movie.