"Theres less of a user base that enjoys that type of game. Its not droping the ball on going for some gamebraking new amazing MMORPG, its hitting the key target audiance. The gamebraking part that Biowere is doing, is fully voiced over MMORPG, not a twich gamers choioce, fine. They have COD, Battlefield, APB, and other games they can play. "
If people craved more of the twitch based games, they would be reporting bigger numbers out there then the WoW clones in the MMO World. Its not a hard concempt. Biowere knows what there target audiance wants, and is giving it to them.
I would like to think more along this line, people 'craving' the WoW experience kinda game, simply they just play whatever is coming out next.
Next, I wouldn't say "They have COD, Battlefield, APB, and other games they can play. " RPG also has MAss Effect, Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, why do they keep yelling for a new MMO? Because they want a persisent Online game, to bring examples that is outside this scope of field is simply not an argument.
Finally, I hope I don't sound like I don't like SWTOR, I understand why they made their choices, since they are a higher budget MMO than the rest, they need a bigger playerbase, thus going for a more acceptable design to current player's prefered method. But as a general MMO, or MMO with a lesser budget, they probably need to try making something a bit more out there, so they can pull players from different base, maybe a shooter MMO can bring in players from COD, action combat can bring in players from Diablo or DOTA, RTS combat can bring in players from Starcraft and else. Fighting with developers such as Bioware and Blizzard for the same playerbase is like going all in in poker with a pair of 2, chances of survival is slim, they can simply just outplay you, you do something nice, they can just pull something even better.
Simply put, developers need vision, as with all great designers, you don't need the biggest budget to build a game many people will enjoy and love, but you need the vision to do it. As far as I know in the MMO developer field, only ANet has reach that expectation, what developers have announced their goal as clear as ANet? Bioware perhaps, not many else does that.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
ANet is doing a pretty good job at making combat realistic and visceral. definitely a huge step-up in the MMO world. it's kinda sad though, i would have preferred such an interesting combat mechanic in a sci fi or Star Wars game.
it's pretty clear to me though. i aint dice-rolling and playing whack-a-mole with someone for 10 minutes to get a kill. i wont be playing TOR mostly for this reason.
in addition, i love Massively. they call it like it is, and theyre pretty honest in expressing their meh-ness regarding TOR's dated direction. more people need to collectively disapprove of such boring development direction so that it doesnt occur as often. considering how epic the SW IP is..or was. we dont need to be so "polite", meek, and hesitant to hurt others' feelings by criticizing "their" game. just say it: it's same old, it's boring, it needs to be improved, and BW should have invested their $100mill+ more wisely.
ANet is doing a pretty good job at making combat realistic and visceral. definitely a huge step-up in the MMO world. it's kinda sad though, i would have preferred such an interesting combat mechanic in a sci fi or Star Wars game.
it's pretty clear to me though. i aint dice-rolling and playing whack-a-mole with someone for 10 minutes to get a kill. i wont be playing TOR mostly for this reason.
in addition, i love Massively. they call it like it is, and theyre pretty honest in expressing their meh-ness regarding TOR's dated direction. more people need to collectively disapprove of such boring development direction so that it doesnt occur as often. considering how epic the SW IP is..or was. we dont need to be so "polite", meek, and hesitant to hurt others' feelings by criticizing "their" game. just say it: it's same old, it's boring, it needs to be improved, and BW should have invested their $100mill+ more wisely.
It's sounds to me that you're merely letting your bias for GW2 get the better of you and merely like the article because it's negative about SWTOR, a game you dislike. Massively has good and bad articles. While everyone is entitled to their opinion and 'soapbox', in this article you have a self proclaimed sandbox fan, who has stated in previous articles to be 'meh' towards themepark MMO's, advocating 1-2 hit kills in an MMORPG
As for realistic and visceral, while I'm certainly going to enjoy GW2's lively combat, I wouldn't describe it as 'realistic' or visceral, with its Asian influenced exaggerated colory Asian influenced combat effects. If you want realistic, Mount & Blade Warband is a good example, and AoC is the example when it comes to a true visceral feel of the combat.
Anyway, once again an SWTOR thread has gotten GW2 injected into the discussion by a GW2 fan(boi?), so I'm going to stop about GW2 right here and suggest people that are fans of other games to keep their talk about those other games to threads and forum sections that are about those games instead of constantly injecting them into threads that are about other games than the one they like
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
ANet is doing a pretty good job at making combat realistic and visceral. definitely a huge step-up in the MMO world. it's kinda sad though, i would have preferred such an interesting combat mechanic in a sci fi or Star Wars game.
it's pretty clear to me though. i aint dice-rolling and playing whack-a-mole with someone for 10 minutes to get a kill. i wont be playing TOR mostly for this reason.
in addition, i love Massively. they call it like it is, and theyre pretty honest in expressing their meh-ness regarding TOR's dated direction. more people need to collectively disapprove of such boring development direction so that it doesnt occur as often. considering how epic the SW IP is..or was. we dont need to be so "polite", meek, and hesitant to hurt others' feelings by criticizing "their" game. just say it: it's same old, it's boring, it needs to be improved, and BW should have invested their $100mill+ more wisely.
Whenever GW2 is brought up as a 'GW2 vs SWTOR' I always see 'COD:BLOPS vs The Witcher2'.
Just a 'lolwut?' as I can't see them competeting with each other.
Heck, GW1 didn't compete with WoW.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
The author is right on with his accessment of the game and how perhaps a given class should have been constructed... Most of the peeps here are overreacting, its not like someone is taking your candybar away from you, they are only saying that the game ist good, catters to the average person taste, but, it could be better.
In your opinion he is right on obviously not in the opinion of many people on this site and for the record some of the people disagreeing with him don't even like TOR expressing ones displeasure on a forum is overreacting? I doubt anyone has said anything about him that would even warrant a warning from mmorpg so what exactly are you talking about overreacting?
As another poster pointed out his logic is flawed as is his understanding of the lore if you watched the films you believe Jedi to be the be all end all of everything but fans of the ip know better want to understand why the system chosen works read a star wars novel, go grab one of the comic books it's all out there.
And the people on this website are always right... of course how could i forget that little big detail.. i am so sorry mate.. really i am.
The problem is that most of the peeps here have,
A. Not even tested the game so far. B. Not even understood what the author said. C. Not even read 1 starwars book or seen 1 film. D. Not even considered that there might be other possibilities to this game other than the classic MMO WOW game sys.
Oh well but that doesn't matter... so long as you can spend your money, so long as mmorpg.com are right and the rest of the world wrong ... all is well, all is well.
PS. Don't even come with the, "your a hater!!!!!blablabla" , i am also looking forward to this game :P > until Dark Millenium comes out that is.
I think that the writer has no clue what he is talking about when it comes to MMO's. Yes MMO combat can be slow at times and for a very good reason. Balance. It makes people with slower reaction time, or slow connections, even slow machines be on par with someone with a better, faster machine. If combat were based on personal reaction time, anyone that did not have a capped out system would be doomed.
As for the Jedi being these Demi gods that can wipe out entire platoons of troops and such ... Not true. Yes Jedi are exceptional and very skilled. In the game the idea is that all players are the hero, they are better than average in what they do. Yes a jedi could take on 3 or more mobs and win ... but so could a trooper, a smuggler or any other class.. that is called Epic game play.
Maybe I have the simple view as ... If you have nothing good to say then do not say anything.... Yes your a critic and on your soapbox ... but I think your a dumb ass that needs to look at why you feel the need to push your views on others.
I don't know how many games are on that list but it is alot more than when Verant released Everquest 12 years ago. Choices are out there people. As they say "don't let the door hit ya" no one is forcing anyone to pull their credit card out
I don't know how many games are on that list but it is alot more than when Verant released Everquest 12 years ago. Choices are out there people. As they say "don't let the door hit ya" no one is forcing anyone to pull their credit card out
What choice? 90% of the game in that list is either WoW inspired or so buggy that you would rather punch the screen.
Or just a grind fest of hotkey 1,2,3.
There are probably around 10-20 games on that list that is worth looking at. Even less if you want a genuine MMO experience.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I understand the OP's thoughts and they do have merit. That said, there has to be equality for a game to be successful. Otherwise there would be 100 million Jedi/Sith trying to beat each other to death (and one Smuggler standing in the corner laughing). I do like the idea of a Jedi consistently choosing negative courses eventually waffling to the Dark side but that could be more or less applicable to all the classes.
The end result is that it is what it is. Some (and I think many) will play and like, some will not. To each their own.
I don't know how many games are on that list but it is alot more than when Verant released Everquest 12 years ago. Choices are out there people. As they say "don't let the door hit ya" no one is forcing anyone to pull their credit card out
What choice? 90% of the game in that list is either WoW inspired or so buggy that you would rather punch the screen.
Or just a grind fest of hotkey 1,2,3.
There are probably around 10-20 games on that list that is worth looking at. Even less if you want a genuine MMO experience.
which does not negate that you stil have a huge choice of games to play. MMOFPS games, MMO space sim games, MMO sports sims, MMO Flight combat sims, MMO golf games.. the list is amazingly long.Of ocurse internet forums and blogs are for people to complain and attempt to convince others they are coney sewers.
Just myself but I don't expect much thee days from MMOs, I play them for the social aspect beasue none are really what I would consider challenging
I don't know how many games are on that list but it is alot more than when Verant released Everquest 12 years ago. Choices are out there people. As they say "don't let the door hit ya" no one is forcing anyone to pull their credit card out
What choice? 90% of the game in that list is either WoW inspired or so buggy that you would rather punch the screen.
Or just a grind fest of hotkey 1,2,3.
There are probably around 10-20 games on that list that is worth looking at. Even less if you want a genuine MMO experience.
which does not negate that you stil have a huge choice of games to play. MMOFPS games, MMO space sim games, MMO sports sims, MMO Flight combat sims, MMO golf games.. the list is amazingly long.Of ocurse internet forums and blogs are for people to complain and attempt to convince others they are coney sewers.
Just myself but I don't expect much thee days from MMOs, I play them for the social aspect beasue none are really what I would consider challenging
I don't think he's asking if a MMO exists that is not WoW inspired, I think he's just asking for more variety in AAA games.
I got sick of WoW inspired games as well, so I tried going off the grid with games like Darkfall and MO, but they just didn't have the polish that a mainstream game like Aion or Rift has. I also tried Eve, but it is waaaay different from most MMORPGs and I just didn't enjoy it.
I don't think asking for a AAA MMORPG that isn't a WoW-clone is too much to ask .
I don't know how many games are on that list but it is alot more than when Verant released Everquest 12 years ago. Choices are out there people. As they say "don't let the door hit ya" no one is forcing anyone to pull their credit card out
What choice? 90% of the game in that list is either WoW inspired or so buggy that you would rather punch the screen.
Or just a grind fest of hotkey 1,2,3.
There are probably around 10-20 games on that list that is worth looking at. Even less if you want a genuine MMO experience.
which does not negate that you stil have a huge choice of games to play. MMOFPS games, MMO space sim games, MMO sports sims, MMO Flight combat sims, MMO golf games.. the list is amazingly long.Of ocurse internet forums and blogs are for people to complain and attempt to convince others they are coney sewers.
Just myself but I don't expect much thee days from MMOs, I play them for the social aspect beasue none are really what I would consider challenging
I guess its just different ideals then. In my opinion, MMO are truly MMO when they are quite a bit of players playing it as well, just because the game offer a persisent world doesn't immediately make it a MMO for me, you need people to interact with (note interact, not just talk on chat channels or go raids with people). Most of those games you mentioned doesn't actually have a lot of players playing, thus making it less of a MMO for me.
Also I think you are confusing my meaning of variety, it isn't the same as just having a choice. Choice is an idea base on quantity, when any option is a viable 'choice', but variety, to me, is that it needs to provide a different kind of experience in order to be classify as a 'variety'. A lot of the MMOG out there are mostly MMORPG, what I'm asking is that there should be more variety, instead of just having a choice of games, but also a depth in games. Single player games you have, RPG, RTS, Sports Sim, Racing, Platforming, Shooter, etc. A lot of them have been tried in the MMO genre, but none of them are even close to their counterpart's standard.
This is also a part of the player's problem, a lot of people on this forum always asks for the same thing, they don't want to move out of the comfort zone. They like one game, and cannot possibly fathom thinking the game next to it can be as great as the one they are playing, thus the whole fanboy wars. You don't see this in single player games, hardly will you ever see people go, Mass Effect vs CoD, at least not as servere as MMOG. You get fanboys over PS3 and Xbox, but they are console wars where many games are included in each of their gamelist. One case tho, is CoD vs Battlefield, because you know why, they are both extremely similar games.
It is fine to have similarity in different games, but when you constantly have multiple group of fanboys arguing which game is the best, you know your games are almost too similar. YES YES, a lot of people say GW2 is really different from the rest, but there are still GW2, and SWTOR fanboys arguing. GW2 is trying to make a difference, but its innovation is still only a faction of what variety exists in single player games.
MMO market is expanding, more and more players are in touch with what MMOG does, game developers will need to try to touch in base with more of the playerbase than just the existing ones in order to compete and survive. Being better than WoW isn't going to "kill WoW", but variety is what going to, you need to offer a complete difference experience to the players in order to lure them away. Offering similar experience will just cause Blizzard to do better, not necessarily a bad thing, but it certainly isn't doing much good to the overall community.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I don't know how many games are on that list but it is alot more than when Verant released Everquest 12 years ago. Choices are out there people. As they say "don't let the door hit ya" no one is forcing anyone to pull their credit card out
What choice? 90% of the game in that list is either WoW inspired or so buggy that you would rather punch the screen.
Or just a grind fest of hotkey 1,2,3.
There are probably around 10-20 games on that list that is worth looking at. Even less if you want a genuine MMO experience.
which does not negate that you stil have a huge choice of games to play. MMOFPS games, MMO space sim games, MMO sports sims, MMO Flight combat sims, MMO golf games.. the list is amazingly long.Of ocurse internet forums and blogs are for people to complain and attempt to convince others they are coney sewers.
Just myself but I don't expect much thee days from MMOs, I play them for the social aspect beasue none are really what I would consider challenging
I guess its just different ideals then. In my opinion, MMO are truly MMO when they are quite a bit of players playing it as well, just because the game offer a persisent world doesn't immediately make it a MMO for me, you need people to interact with (note interact, not just talk on chat channels or go raids with people). Most of those games you mentioned doesn't actually have a lot of players playing, thus making it less of a MMO for me.
as said in my post, I play for the social aspect. Got friends in my L:oTRO kinship that go bac 10 years. Some I met playing DII, DAOC, and SWG. I have played with some of their sons and daughters and yes even a grandkid in one case. Wow has how many million players? you won't ever interact with 1000 of them. I don't need 500K otehr people to enjoy a game, 25 good guildies will suffice
whatever, like I said if I want a challenge I play a FPS or a RTS, I don't expect much from combat in a MMO. Some scenery and some company and with a bit of luck a good story helps.
I am planning on playing this game and GWII and DIII over the next year and still squeeze in some LoTRO, screw that one game is supposed to satisfy all my gaming needs BS
Just myself but I don't expect much thee days from MMOs, I play them for the social aspect beasue none are really what I would consider challenging
I guess its just different ideals then. In my opinion, MMO are truly MMO when they are quite a bit of players playing it as well, just because the game offer a persisent world doesn't immediately make it a MMO for me, you need people to interact with (note interact, not just talk on chat channels or go raids with people). Most of those games you mentioned doesn't actually have a lot of players playing, thus making it less of a MMO for me.
as said in my post, I play for the social aspect. Got friends in my L:oTRO kinship that go bac 10 years. Some I met playing DII, DAOC, and SWG. I have played with some of their sons and daughters and yes even a grandkid in one case. Wow has how many million players? you won't ever interact with 1000 of them. I don't need 500K otehr people to enjoy a game, 25 good guildies will suffice
whatever, like I said if I want a challenge I play a FPS or a RTS, I don't expect much from combat in a MMO. Some scenery and some company and with a bit of luck a good story helps.
I am planning on playing this game and GWII and DIII over the next year and still squeeze in some LoTRO, screw that one game is supposed to satisfy all my gaming needs BS
I say finding 25 good guildies in a million players is pretty hard. Trying finding that in um say. Destiny Online? One of the games on that list.
And like I said, its just different ideals in what MMO should be.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Well in Bioware's defense they never said they was going to be innovative here at all. All they been saying all this tims is that all they are doing is adding story. Though I am sorry, just adding story to pre-existing mmo features is not good enough.
Well in Bioware's defense they never said they was going to be innovative here at all. All they been saying all this tims is that all they are doing is adding story. Though I am sorry, just adding story to pre-existing mmo features is not good enough.
No, they said they were making "Story" one of the "Pillars" that the game would be built on. They also said they were going to put there own twist on most of the features and they have, even combat. But I guess having weapons intercept each other isn't enough, nor various animations for the same powers based on what is going on in the game at the time. The cover mechanic seems to be totally ignored as well by most. Then of course you have multiple specs for each Advanced Classes which completely changes how they play. Nor should we look at how you will seldom face only a single enemy like most games.
But hey, it's hard for people like that author to put the game down if they actually have to look at all the stuff BioWare IS doing different.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I understand the OP's thoughts and they do have merit. That said, there has to be equality for a game to be successful. Otherwise there would be 100 million Jedi/Sith trying to beat each other to death (and one Smuggler standing in the corner laughing). I do like the idea of a Jedi consistently choosing negative courses eventually waffling to the Dark side but that could be more or less applicable to all the classes.
The end result is that it is what it is. Some (and I think many) will play and like, some will not. To each their own.
I think the point just about oh...everybody missed is I think you could weed out alot of the riff raff by just making the jedi class something closer to what the original movies portrayed. Not this exaggerrated Force Unleashed crap or the mindless action of the prequels.
Make a player regulary handle situations without a lightsaber. Make them resolve potential confrontations through negotiation. Battles would have to be won with strategy rather than your standard charge/hack style MMO tanking.
The sith could be modeled after the sith in the movies too. Prone to confrontation and letting their hunger for power be their downfall. Always going balls to the wall can win some fights but they would be just as susceptible to a quick death because of their overly aggressive mentality in combat.
[Blablabla ... I want my MMOs to be like a first person shooter ... blablabla]
The guy even admits he's bad at MMO combat.
Is it surprising someone doesnt like what one isnt good at ?
In Vanguard, my complaint is more among the lines that mobs have TOO FEW hitpoints. I stand no chance to ever getting all my abilities out before those buggers are already dead again.
I think the point just about oh...everybody missed is I think you could weed out alot of the riff raff by just making the jedi class something closer to what the original movies portrayed.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that this game is set thousands of years BEFORE the original films?
The Jedi and Sith in the Old Republic are not the same ones that are in the films.
They definitley missed an opportunity to do something different but it will be interesting to play an almost fully polished MMO. At this point the only gripe I have is that they seemingly mis-used a lot of their time. Fully voicing an mmo + making huttball < a full space sim. I bet a poll to that effect would support that theory and since it looks like we very well might be waiting until 2012...might aswell have added space for real. When it comes down to it, the combat was a baby step in the right direction.
Hopefully they don't forget to have subtitles, I already have the entire John Williams discography on a playlist so I might not even want to listen to these npc voices. 900+ voices down the drain? LOL
EDIT: Had to add 1 thing about combat. Is it me or does anyone else not notice the giant engine parts coming out of nowhere for 1 of the jedi force moves...lol come on now....
They definitley missed an opportunity to do something different but it will be interesting to play an almost fully polished MMO. At this point the only gripe I have is that they seemingly mis-used a lot of their time. Fully voicing an mmo + making huttball < a full space sim. I bet a poll to that effect would support that theory and since it looks like we very well might be waiting until 2012...might aswell have added space for real. When it comes down to it, the combat was a baby step in the right direction.
Hopefully they don't forget to have subtitles, I already have the entire John Williams discography on a playlist so I might not even want to listen to these npc voices. 900+ voices down the drain? LOL
EDIT: Had to add 1 thing about combat. Is it me or does anyone else not notice the giant engine parts coming out of nowhere for 1 of the jedi force moves...lol come on now....
Haha.. you noticed that, huh? A beautiful "lob septic tank" spell. One might imagine that beta testers have pointed out this and other similar particulars and commented to the devs as you'd expect.
I would also think it might fall into the category of things to be adjusted right before launch.
The real problem with ToR isn't that it isn't changing anything, it's that i am of the opinion all the people quitting wow are going to play it, more people will quit to play it, and it will settle firmly into 2nd place and probably make a lot of cash.
Seeing this, other companies who may have tried something different, will be dissuaded from doing so.
It's not biowares job to look out for the future of a genre of games, it's their game to make a product that will make money, so i can't blame them for this, but it still kinda sucks.
They definitley missed an opportunity to do something different but it will be interesting to play an almost fully polished MMO. At this point the only gripe I have is that they seemingly mis-used a lot of their time. Fully voicing an mmo + making huttball < a full space sim. I bet a poll to that effect would support that theory and since it looks like we very well might be waiting until 2012...might aswell have added space for real. When it comes down to it, the combat was a baby step in the right direction.
EDIT: Had to add 1 thing about combat. Is it me or does anyone else not notice the giant engine parts coming out of nowhere for 1 of the jedi force moves...lol come on now....
Yeah, it used to be a chunk of rock with soil on it, which made more sense on a planet. But what is best and what they should have done is make the animation situational: a chunk of rock on planet based surfaces, engine parts when indoor or on a spaceship and such.
As for the fully voicing + making huttball < full space sim, that's the wrong kind of argument.
Fully voiced+cinematic cutscenes+decisionbased branched questing was their core part for the questing revamp, to make it more entertaining and immersive than questing is right now in MMO's. Plus it has been one of their trademarks in the games they made. It's far easier to add space combat than to add VO, branched questing and cinematic cutscenes to all the questing, and if the questing would have been kept the same, then people would complain about the questing being as bland and boring s as (some) people find it in traditional MMO's. So making the VO and cinematic questing an integral part makes far more sense, since space combat can be added later on, just as it happened with SWG.
Also, the resources to develop something like Huttball are a fraction of what it'd take to create a full space sim as a feature.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The real problem with ToR isn't that it isn't changing anything, it's that i am of the opinion all the people quitting wow are going to play it, more people will quit to play it, and it will settle firmly into 2nd place and probably make a lot of cash.
Seeing this, other companies who may have tried something different, will be dissuaded from doing so.
It's not biowares job to look out for the future of a genre of games, it's their game to make a product that will make money, so i can't blame them for this, but it still kinda sucks.
I'm hoping it works out positively...
Other developers might realize that the production costs and risk of competing with WoW/ToR/whoeverelse in the generic theme-park MMO-world are too great... so they instead try to create more innovative online games.
The real problem with ToR isn't that it isn't changing anything, it's that i am of the opinion all the people quitting wow are going to play it, more people will quit to play it, and it will settle firmly into 2nd place and probably make a lot of cash.
Seeing this, other companies who may have tried something different, will be dissuaded from doing so.
It's not biowares job to look out for the future of a genre of games, it's their game to make a product that will make money, so i can't blame them for this, but it still kinda sucks.
I'm hoping it works out positively...
Other developers might realize that the production costs and risk of competing with WoW/ToR/whoeverelse in the generic theme-park MMO-world are too great... so they instead try to create more innovative online games.
I never really got the whole innovatoin argument.
What is innovation if not taking something and changing it?
TORs questing for instance is it not innovative? Its combat is more like COX then WoW and its crafting is more akin to EvE.
Comments
I would like to think more along this line, people 'craving' the WoW experience kinda game, simply they just play whatever is coming out next.
Next, I wouldn't say "They have COD, Battlefield, APB, and other games they can play. " RPG also has MAss Effect, Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, why do they keep yelling for a new MMO? Because they want a persisent Online game, to bring examples that is outside this scope of field is simply not an argument.
Finally, I hope I don't sound like I don't like SWTOR, I understand why they made their choices, since they are a higher budget MMO than the rest, they need a bigger playerbase, thus going for a more acceptable design to current player's prefered method. But as a general MMO, or MMO with a lesser budget, they probably need to try making something a bit more out there, so they can pull players from different base, maybe a shooter MMO can bring in players from COD, action combat can bring in players from Diablo or DOTA, RTS combat can bring in players from Starcraft and else. Fighting with developers such as Bioware and Blizzard for the same playerbase is like going all in in poker with a pair of 2, chances of survival is slim, they can simply just outplay you, you do something nice, they can just pull something even better.
Simply put, developers need vision, as with all great designers, you don't need the biggest budget to build a game many people will enjoy and love, but you need the vision to do it. As far as I know in the MMO developer field, only ANet has reach that expectation, what developers have announced their goal as clear as ANet? Bioware perhaps, not many else does that.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
ANet is doing a pretty good job at making combat realistic and visceral. definitely a huge step-up in the MMO world. it's kinda sad though, i would have preferred such an interesting combat mechanic in a sci fi or Star Wars game.
it's pretty clear to me though. i aint dice-rolling and playing whack-a-mole with someone for 10 minutes to get a kill. i wont be playing TOR mostly for this reason.
in addition, i love Massively. they call it like it is, and theyre pretty honest in expressing their meh-ness regarding TOR's dated direction. more people need to collectively disapprove of such boring development direction so that it doesnt occur as often. considering how epic the SW IP is..or was. we dont need to be so "polite", meek, and hesitant to hurt others' feelings by criticizing "their" game. just say it: it's same old, it's boring, it needs to be improved, and BW should have invested their $100mill+ more wisely.
It's sounds to me that you're merely letting your bias for GW2 get the better of you and merely like the article because it's negative about SWTOR, a game you dislike. Massively has good and bad articles. While everyone is entitled to their opinion and 'soapbox', in this article you have a self proclaimed sandbox fan, who has stated in previous articles to be 'meh' towards themepark MMO's, advocating 1-2 hit kills in an MMORPG
As for realistic and visceral, while I'm certainly going to enjoy GW2's lively combat, I wouldn't describe it as 'realistic' or visceral, with its Asian influenced exaggerated colory Asian influenced combat effects. If you want realistic, Mount & Blade Warband is a good example, and AoC is the example when it comes to a true visceral feel of the combat.
Anyway, once again an SWTOR thread has gotten GW2 injected into the discussion by a GW2 fan(boi?), so I'm going to stop about GW2 right here and suggest people that are fans of other games to keep their talk about those other games to threads and forum sections that are about those games instead of constantly injecting them into threads that are about other games than the one they like
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Whenever GW2 is brought up as a 'GW2 vs SWTOR' I always see 'COD:BLOPS vs The Witcher2'.
Just a 'lolwut?' as I can't see them competeting with each other.
Heck, GW1 didn't compete with WoW.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
In your opinion he is right on obviously not in the opinion of many people on this site and for the record some of the people disagreeing with him don't even like TOR expressing ones displeasure on a forum is overreacting? I doubt anyone has said anything about him that would even warrant a warning from mmorpg so what exactly are you talking about overreacting?
As another poster pointed out his logic is flawed as is his understanding of the lore if you watched the films you believe Jedi to be the be all end all of everything but fans of the ip know better want to understand why the system chosen works read a star wars novel, go grab one of the comic books it's all out there.
And the people on this website are always right... of course how could i forget that little big detail.. i am so sorry mate.. really i am.The problem is that most of the peeps here have,
A. Not even tested the game so far.
B. Not even understood what the author said.
C. Not even read 1 starwars book or seen 1 film.
D. Not even considered that there might be other possibilities to this game other than the classic MMO WOW game sys.
Oh well but that doesn't matter... so long as you can spend your money, so long as mmorpg.com are right and the rest of the world wrong ... all is well, all is well.
PS. Don't even come with the, "your a hater!!!!!blablabla" , i am also looking forward to this game :P > until Dark Millenium comes out that is.
I think that the writer has no clue what he is talking about when it comes to MMO's. Yes MMO combat can be slow at times and for a very good reason. Balance. It makes people with slower reaction time, or slow connections, even slow machines be on par with someone with a better, faster machine. If combat were based on personal reaction time, anyone that did not have a capped out system would be doomed.
As for the Jedi being these Demi gods that can wipe out entire platoons of troops and such ... Not true. Yes Jedi are exceptional and very skilled. In the game the idea is that all players are the hero, they are better than average in what they do. Yes a jedi could take on 3 or more mobs and win ... but so could a trooper, a smuggler or any other class.. that is called Epic game play.
Maybe I have the simple view as ... If you have nothing good to say then do not say anything.... Yes your a critic and on your soapbox ... but I think your a dumb ass that needs to look at why you feel the need to push your views on others.
people who really want different game play can look here
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm
I don't know how many games are on that list but it is alot more than when Verant released Everquest 12 years ago. Choices are out there people. As they say "don't let the door hit ya" no one is forcing anyone to pull their credit card out
I miss DAoC
What choice? 90% of the game in that list is either WoW inspired or so buggy that you would rather punch the screen.
Or just a grind fest of hotkey 1,2,3.
There are probably around 10-20 games on that list that is worth looking at. Even less if you want a genuine MMO experience.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I understand the OP's thoughts and they do have merit. That said, there has to be equality for a game to be successful. Otherwise there would be 100 million Jedi/Sith trying to beat each other to death (and one Smuggler standing in the corner laughing). I do like the idea of a Jedi consistently choosing negative courses eventually waffling to the Dark side but that could be more or less applicable to all the classes.
The end result is that it is what it is. Some (and I think many) will play and like, some will not. To each their own.
which does not negate that you stil have a huge choice of games to play. MMOFPS games, MMO space sim games, MMO sports sims, MMO Flight combat sims, MMO golf games.. the list is amazingly long.Of ocurse internet forums and blogs are for people to complain and attempt to convince others they are coney sewers.
Just myself but I don't expect much thee days from MMOs, I play them for the social aspect beasue none are really what I would consider challenging
I miss DAoC
I don't think he's asking if a MMO exists that is not WoW inspired, I think he's just asking for more variety in AAA games.
I got sick of WoW inspired games as well, so I tried going off the grid with games like Darkfall and MO, but they just didn't have the polish that a mainstream game like Aion or Rift has. I also tried Eve, but it is waaaay different from most MMORPGs and I just didn't enjoy it.
I don't think asking for a AAA MMORPG that isn't a WoW-clone is too much to ask
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I guess its just different ideals then. In my opinion, MMO are truly MMO when they are quite a bit of players playing it as well, just because the game offer a persisent world doesn't immediately make it a MMO for me, you need people to interact with (note interact, not just talk on chat channels or go raids with people). Most of those games you mentioned doesn't actually have a lot of players playing, thus making it less of a MMO for me.
Also I think you are confusing my meaning of variety, it isn't the same as just having a choice. Choice is an idea base on quantity, when any option is a viable 'choice', but variety, to me, is that it needs to provide a different kind of experience in order to be classify as a 'variety'. A lot of the MMOG out there are mostly MMORPG, what I'm asking is that there should be more variety, instead of just having a choice of games, but also a depth in games. Single player games you have, RPG, RTS, Sports Sim, Racing, Platforming, Shooter, etc. A lot of them have been tried in the MMO genre, but none of them are even close to their counterpart's standard.
This is also a part of the player's problem, a lot of people on this forum always asks for the same thing, they don't want to move out of the comfort zone. They like one game, and cannot possibly fathom thinking the game next to it can be as great as the one they are playing, thus the whole fanboy wars. You don't see this in single player games, hardly will you ever see people go, Mass Effect vs CoD, at least not as servere as MMOG. You get fanboys over PS3 and Xbox, but they are console wars where many games are included in each of their gamelist. One case tho, is CoD vs Battlefield, because you know why, they are both extremely similar games.
It is fine to have similarity in different games, but when you constantly have multiple group of fanboys arguing which game is the best, you know your games are almost too similar. YES YES, a lot of people say GW2 is really different from the rest, but there are still GW2, and SWTOR fanboys arguing. GW2 is trying to make a difference, but its innovation is still only a faction of what variety exists in single player games.
MMO market is expanding, more and more players are in touch with what MMOG does, game developers will need to try to touch in base with more of the playerbase than just the existing ones in order to compete and survive. Being better than WoW isn't going to "kill WoW", but variety is what going to, you need to offer a complete difference experience to the players in order to lure them away. Offering similar experience will just cause Blizzard to do better, not necessarily a bad thing, but it certainly isn't doing much good to the overall community.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
as said in my post, I play for the social aspect. Got friends in my L:oTRO kinship that go bac 10 years. Some I met playing DII, DAOC, and SWG. I have played with some of their sons and daughters and yes even a grandkid in one case. Wow has how many million players? you won't ever interact with 1000 of them. I don't need 500K otehr people to enjoy a game, 25 good guildies will suffice
whatever, like I said if I want a challenge I play a FPS or a RTS, I don't expect much from combat in a MMO. Some scenery and some company and with a bit of luck a good story helps.
I am planning on playing this game and GWII and DIII over the next year and still squeeze in some LoTRO, screw that one game is supposed to satisfy all my gaming needs BS
I miss DAoC
I say finding 25 good guildies in a million players is pretty hard. Trying finding that in um say. Destiny Online? One of the games on that list.
And like I said, its just different ideals in what MMO should be.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Well in Bioware's defense they never said they was going to be innovative here at all. All they been saying all this tims is that all they are doing is adding story. Though I am sorry, just adding story to pre-existing mmo features is not good enough.
No, they said they were making "Story" one of the "Pillars" that the game would be built on. They also said they were going to put there own twist on most of the features and they have, even combat. But I guess having weapons intercept each other isn't enough, nor various animations for the same powers based on what is going on in the game at the time. The cover mechanic seems to be totally ignored as well by most. Then of course you have multiple specs for each Advanced Classes which completely changes how they play. Nor should we look at how you will seldom face only a single enemy like most games.
But hey, it's hard for people like that author to put the game down if they actually have to look at all the stuff BioWare IS doing different.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I think the point just about oh...everybody missed is I think you could weed out alot of the riff raff by just making the jedi class something closer to what the original movies portrayed. Not this exaggerrated Force Unleashed crap or the mindless action of the prequels.
Make a player regulary handle situations without a lightsaber. Make them resolve potential confrontations through negotiation. Battles would have to be won with strategy rather than your standard charge/hack style MMO tanking.
The sith could be modeled after the sith in the movies too. Prone to confrontation and letting their hunger for power be their downfall. Always going balls to the wall can win some fights but they would be just as susceptible to a quick death because of their overly aggressive mentality in combat.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
The guy even admits he's bad at MMO combat.
Is it surprising someone doesnt like what one isnt good at ?
In Vanguard, my complaint is more among the lines that mobs have TOO FEW hitpoints. I stand no chance to ever getting all my abilities out before those buggers are already dead again.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that this game is set thousands of years BEFORE the original films?
The Jedi and Sith in the Old Republic are not the same ones that are in the films.
They definitley missed an opportunity to do something different but it will be interesting to play an almost fully polished MMO. At this point the only gripe I have is that they seemingly mis-used a lot of their time. Fully voicing an mmo + making huttball < a full space sim. I bet a poll to that effect would support that theory and since it looks like we very well might be waiting until 2012...might aswell have added space for real. When it comes down to it, the combat was a baby step in the right direction.
Hopefully they don't forget to have subtitles, I already have the entire John Williams discography on a playlist so I might not even want to listen to these npc voices. 900+ voices down the drain? LOL
EDIT: Had to add 1 thing about combat. Is it me or does anyone else not notice the giant engine parts coming out of nowhere for 1 of the jedi force moves...lol come on now....
"LOL"
Haha.. you noticed that, huh? A beautiful "lob septic tank" spell. One might imagine that beta testers have pointed out this and other similar particulars and commented to the devs as you'd expect.
I would also think it might fall into the category of things to be adjusted right before launch.
The real problem with ToR isn't that it isn't changing anything, it's that i am of the opinion all the people quitting wow are going to play it, more people will quit to play it, and it will settle firmly into 2nd place and probably make a lot of cash.
Seeing this, other companies who may have tried something different, will be dissuaded from doing so.
It's not biowares job to look out for the future of a genre of games, it's their game to make a product that will make money, so i can't blame them for this, but it still kinda sucks.
Yeah, it used to be a chunk of rock with soil on it, which made more sense on a planet. But what is best and what they should have done is make the animation situational: a chunk of rock on planet based surfaces, engine parts when indoor or on a spaceship and such.
As for the fully voicing + making huttball < full space sim, that's the wrong kind of argument.
Fully voiced+cinematic cutscenes+decisionbased branched questing was their core part for the questing revamp, to make it more entertaining and immersive than questing is right now in MMO's. Plus it has been one of their trademarks in the games they made. It's far easier to add space combat than to add VO, branched questing and cinematic cutscenes to all the questing, and if the questing would have been kept the same, then people would complain about the questing being as bland and boring s as (some) people find it in traditional MMO's. So making the VO and cinematic questing an integral part makes far more sense, since space combat can be added later on, just as it happened with SWG.
Also, the resources to develop something like Huttball are a fraction of what it'd take to create a full space sim as a feature.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm hoping it works out positively...
Other developers might realize that the production costs and risk of competing with WoW/ToR/whoeverelse in the generic theme-park MMO-world are too great... so they instead try to create more innovative online games.
I never really got the whole innovatoin argument.
What is innovation if not taking something and changing it?
TORs questing for instance is it not innovative? Its combat is more like COX then WoW and its crafting is more akin to EvE.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.