Your all frikkin bonkers if you dont agree with this guy, hell iv not played wow in over a year now but I cant sill remmber the following.
qe34445
Which was Frost Nova, Ice Lance, Frost Bolt , Frost Bolt , Frost Bolt, Cone of Cold = dead mob.
Christ I could target a mob, shut my eyes and then just press through my rotation and no matter what it was it would be dead, only elite or boss mobs forced a player to alter their rotation and even then it was more a matter of making their rotation longer to accomodate the high HP count.
Only in PVP does MMO Combat get fun and thats because the human factor, players dont always do the best move they are unpredicatable and irratic making for fun game play.
I have to agree with the article fully, mmo standards today are neither comoplex, or fun, and yet we still play them because we simply do not have another option.
Imagine TOR sith and Jedi but with a Jedi Knight(The Game) combat with their light sabers, in short THIS is what TOR sith and Jedit combat should have been like.
I also no longer beleive that the hardware is the limiting factor, sure it was back in the day all the additional collision checks and state phases would have killed an older server, but the hardware we have these days would knock this out the park easily, its just a matter of the developers having the balls to step out of the box .
Fun Challenging combat , SHOULD HAVE NO SET ROTATION, players should be reacting to events and taking appropriate action, much like FPS players do, or Beatem Up Players do, or hell any other game where the combat is not press 1, wait a second for global cool down press 2 wait a second press 3 wait a second press 3 ...........
The real problem with ToR isn't that it isn't changing anything, it's that i am of the opinion all the people quitting wow are going to play it, more people will quit to play it, and it will settle firmly into 2nd place and probably make a lot of cash.
Seeing this, other companies who may have tried something different, will be dissuaded from doing so.
It's not biowares job to look out for the future of a genre of games, it's their game to make a product that will make money, so i can't blame them for this, but it still kinda sucks.
I'm hoping it works out positively...
Other developers might realize that the production costs and risk of competing with WoW/ToR/whoeverelse in the generic theme-park MMO-world are too great... so they instead try to create more innovative online games.
I never really got the whole innovatoin argument.
What is innovation if not taking something and changing it?
TORs questing for instance is it not innovative? Its combat is more like COX then WoW and its crafting is more akin to EvE.
Yes, innovation is taking something and changing it. Doing something in a different way and HOPEFULLY a fun way too boot. The problem is that people see something that doesn't excite them and claim it lacks "innovation", mostly because they have no idea how to actually say what is really bothering them. At least that is why I think they are doing it most of the time.
The funny thing is, the facts show this to be a very innovative MMO. Maybe not the most innovative, but still very innovative. After all, how many MMOs show characters actually using weapons to block attacks? The depth of the Companion system as well as it versitality is also innovative. Player housing that includes your crafting center AND transportation to other worlds? Multiple leveling paths that can be followed? Heck, even the shear size of this game at launch is an innovation. Just to name a few there.
People can say they don't like certain features of the game, or maybe it just doesn't excite them, but anyone saying this game lacks innovation is pretty small minded in my book.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Either way. The idea is simply this: you can base the combat power of a character on the character skills, his numercials, or on the player skills. If it's the players skills, it's no longer a MMORPG, but a MMOFPS. And not everyone wants that or is nimble and agile enough to do that. While I understand classic MMORPG combat is a bit sterile, I haven't seen a convincing alternative. (Same as the Holy Trinity.) It is easy to critizise, but no suggetstions to make it better really convinced me so far. By and large I prefer my char to have his power based on numbers, stats and skill as in a RPG not on MY own skills, because - I have no problem admitting that - my skills would suck, compared to others. And I am sure not the only one here.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
SWTOR and GW2 are the most inovative games to be released in the near future... SWTOR is giving something new to the mmo world with their voiced over quests and decidions which matter in the dialogs, with the size of the world on release and slightly improved combat system with good leveling options and variaty. And not to mention it's SW franchise, the most popular franchise in the movie/game/book industry of sci-fi enviroment... We're talking about more than few million people (from kids to adults) which are fans of Star Wars which some of them ain't really bothered with trashing the game before they actually try it... I'm 1 of them.
BTW. Threads like this are really retarded... It's overused, seriously.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Either way. The idea is simply this: you can base the combat power of a character on the character skills, his numercials, or on the player skills. If it's the players skills, it's no longer a MMORPG, but a MMOFPS. And not everyone wants that or is nimble and agile enough to do that. While I understand classic MMORPG combat is a bit sterile, I haven't seen a convincing alternative. (Same as the Holy Trinity.) It is easy to critizise, but no suggetstions to make it better really convinced me so far. By and large I prefer my char to have his power based on numbers, stats and skill as in a RPG not on MY own skills, because - I have no problem admitting that - my skills would suck, compared to others. And I am sure not the only one here.
It's not black or white though, there is a continuum here.
On one side, you have the combat completely based on pre-determined variables with no player intervention. This is like attacking another unit in a strategy game like civilization, you have no control over the combat once it starts, it is completely pre-determined.
On the other side, you have combat in which all contestants start out absolutely equally and the outcome is determined completely by player skill. A game like Pong is like this...or Starcraft if both players are playing the same race and are on a symmetrical map. The weakness here is that there is no variety. If you want an absolutely balanced competition, everyone MUST be exactly the same.
I don't think that anyone wants the far end of the continuum where everyone is absolutely equal and combat is completely skill-based. Because, as you say, the game wouldn't be an RPG anymore.
That said, I don't see any harm in an MMORPG game moving further towards this end of the spectrum. Right now, I feel that combat in MMORPGs is just a bit too pre-determined. I don't think having combat be a bit more skill based would be a bad thing.
I understand the OP's thoughts and they do have merit. That said, there has to be equality for a game to be successful. Otherwise there would be 100 million Jedi/Sith trying to beat each other to death (and one Smuggler standing in the corner laughing). I do like the idea of a Jedi consistently choosing negative courses eventually waffling to the Dark side but that could be more or less applicable to all the classes.
The end result is that it is what it is. Some (and I think many) will play and like, some will not. To each their own.
I think the point just about oh...everybody missed is I think you could weed out alot of the riff raff by just making the jedi class something closer to what the original movies portrayed. Not this exaggerrated Force Unleashed crap or the mindless action of the prequels.
Make a player regulary handle situations without a lightsaber. Make them resolve potential confrontations through negotiation. Battles would have to be won with strategy rather than your standard charge/hack style MMO tanking.
The sith could be modeled after the sith in the movies too. Prone to confrontation and letting their hunger for power be their downfall. Always going balls to the wall can win some fights but they would be just as susceptible to a quick death because of their overly aggressive mentality in combat.
I'm not sure on the strategy end but there are several situations in which you have to do something in Bioware games without ever so much as lifting your blade (unless your pushing for a fight on purpose). Lets take Kotor (seeing as this game is based on that one), after Juhani attacks you (because she is a dark jedi, and thats what they do) and you drain her to low haelth a converstation with her begins. This is where words (if you want her as a party member) will get you a lot further then a lightsaber will.
5 - Ancient Grove, Juhani
As you approach the ancient grove (your third trial from the Jedi Council), a dark jedi will exit the grove and freeze your two party members and initiate combat. This is Juhani, another possible party member. She's not overly difficult but can be a challenge for your level. Use an energy shield to make the battle easier. When she's down to about 2/3 to 4/5 of her vitality, she'll end the combat and talk to you. Here's your chance to turn her back to the Light Side or kill her outright for (DS Points). If you do kill her, you won't be able to use her Jedi skills throughout the game, obviously - and she's quite powerful, especially toward the end.
To turn her to the light side, you can use your persuade skills if they're high enough, or you can simply choose nice but logical responses that convince her that the Council will forgive her. After it's done, you'll receive 1200xp and she'll return to the Enclave (in the central area between the council and exit). Search the remains nearby bodies for some helpful though average items, and return to Zhar at the Jedi Enclave. You'll be promoted, given another 800xp and given your final task when you again seek the Council's advice. And, if you turned her back to the light side, Juhani will be a new party member as soon as you leave Dantooine!
I've seen several situations in nearly all Bioware games ( i say nearly because i quite frankly haven't played all the Bioware games) where you can if you so choose talk to other side down from aggression or win a fight with words. That i think is the entire point behind the coversation dialogue tree in the first place. It's why we have pursade options, light side and dark side options and the like. You can either talk someone down and take one direction for the quest or just kill them and proceed in the other direction.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Good point. Dice rolls have always been a part of rpgs. If people have a problem with that then they need to stay away from them. If extreme fast pace combat is your thing then go play a FPS.
Comments
Your all frikkin bonkers if you dont agree with this guy, hell iv not played wow in over a year now but I cant sill remmber the following.
qe34445
Which was Frost Nova, Ice Lance, Frost Bolt , Frost Bolt , Frost Bolt, Cone of Cold = dead mob.
Christ I could target a mob, shut my eyes and then just press through my rotation and no matter what it was it would be dead, only elite or boss mobs forced a player to alter their rotation and even then it was more a matter of making their rotation longer to accomodate the high HP count.
Only in PVP does MMO Combat get fun and thats because the human factor, players dont always do the best move they are unpredicatable and irratic making for fun game play.
I have to agree with the article fully, mmo standards today are neither comoplex, or fun, and yet we still play them because we simply do not have another option.
Imagine TOR sith and Jedi but with a Jedi Knight(The Game) combat with their light sabers, in short THIS
is what TOR sith and Jedit combat should have been like.
I also no longer beleive that the hardware is the limiting factor, sure it was back in the day all the additional collision checks and state phases would have killed an older server, but the hardware we have these days would knock this out the park easily, its just a matter of the developers having the balls to step out of the box .
In fact, a better question to ask is this.
"Whats your rotation"
Fun Challenging combat , SHOULD HAVE NO SET ROTATION, players should be reacting to events and taking appropriate action, much like FPS players do, or Beatem Up Players do, or hell any other game where the combat is not press 1, wait a second for global cool down press 2 wait a second press 3 wait a second press 3 ...........
Yes, innovation is taking something and changing it. Doing something in a different way and HOPEFULLY a fun way too boot. The problem is that people see something that doesn't excite them and claim it lacks "innovation", mostly because they have no idea how to actually say what is really bothering them. At least that is why I think they are doing it most of the time.
The funny thing is, the facts show this to be a very innovative MMO. Maybe not the most innovative, but still very innovative. After all, how many MMOs show characters actually using weapons to block attacks? The depth of the Companion system as well as it versitality is also innovative. Player housing that includes your crafting center AND transportation to other worlds? Multiple leveling paths that can be followed? Heck, even the shear size of this game at launch is an innovation. Just to name a few there.
People can say they don't like certain features of the game, or maybe it just doesn't excite them, but anyone saying this game lacks innovation is pretty small minded in my book.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
People seem to think that embellishing an idea creates a new idea.
//headinsand
Sigh, this debate again. How many times...
Either way. The idea is simply this: you can base the combat power of a character on the character skills, his numercials, or on the player skills. If it's the players skills, it's no longer a MMORPG, but a MMOFPS. And not everyone wants that or is nimble and agile enough to do that. While I understand classic MMORPG combat is a bit sterile, I haven't seen a convincing alternative. (Same as the Holy Trinity.) It is easy to critizise, but no suggetstions to make it better really convinced me so far. By and large I prefer my char to have his power based on numbers, stats and skill as in a RPG not on MY own skills, because - I have no problem admitting that - my skills would suck, compared to others. And I am sure not the only one here.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
SWTOR and GW2 are the most inovative games to be released in the near future... SWTOR is giving something new to the mmo world with their voiced over quests and decidions which matter in the dialogs, with the size of the world on release and slightly improved combat system with good leveling options and variaty. And not to mention it's SW franchise, the most popular franchise in the movie/game/book industry of sci-fi enviroment... We're talking about more than few million people (from kids to adults) which are fans of Star Wars which some of them ain't really bothered with trashing the game before they actually try it... I'm 1 of them.
BTW. Threads like this are really retarded... It's overused, seriously.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
It's not black or white though, there is a continuum here.
On one side, you have the combat completely based on pre-determined variables with no player intervention. This is like attacking another unit in a strategy game like civilization, you have no control over the combat once it starts, it is completely pre-determined.
On the other side, you have combat in which all contestants start out absolutely equally and the outcome is determined completely by player skill. A game like Pong is like this...or Starcraft if both players are playing the same race and are on a symmetrical map. The weakness here is that there is no variety. If you want an absolutely balanced competition, everyone MUST be exactly the same.
I don't think that anyone wants the far end of the continuum where everyone is absolutely equal and combat is completely skill-based. Because, as you say, the game wouldn't be an RPG anymore.
That said, I don't see any harm in an MMORPG game moving further towards this end of the spectrum. Right now, I feel that combat in MMORPGs is just a bit too pre-determined. I don't think having combat be a bit more skill based would be a bad thing.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I'm not sure on the strategy end but there are several situations in which you have to do something in Bioware games without ever so much as lifting your blade (unless your pushing for a fight on purpose). Lets take Kotor (seeing as this game is based on that one), after Juhani attacks you (because she is a dark jedi, and thats what they do) and you drain her to low haelth a converstation with her begins. This is where words (if you want her as a party member) will get you a lot further then a lightsaber will.
5 - Ancient Grove, Juhani
As you approach the ancient grove (your third trial from the Jedi Council), a dark jedi will exit the grove and freeze your two party members and initiate combat. This is Juhani, another possible party member. She's not overly difficult but can be a challenge for your level. Use an energy shield to make the battle easier. When she's down to about 2/3 to 4/5 of her vitality, she'll end the combat and talk to you. Here's your chance to turn her back to the Light Side or kill her outright for (DS Points). If you do kill her, you won't be able to use her Jedi skills throughout the game, obviously - and she's quite powerful, especially toward the end.
To turn her to the light side, you can use your persuade skills if they're high enough, or you can simply choose nice but logical responses that convince her that the Council will forgive her. After it's done, you'll receive 1200xp and she'll return to the Enclave (in the central area between the council and exit). Search the remains nearby bodies for some helpful though average items, and return to Zhar at the Jedi Enclave. You'll be promoted, given another 800xp and given your final task when you again seek the Council's advice. And, if you turned her back to the light side, Juhani will be a new party member as soon as you leave Dantooine!
Source: http://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarskotor/locations/grove.php
I've seen several situations in nearly all Bioware games ( i say nearly because i quite frankly haven't played all the Bioware games) where you can if you so choose talk to other side down from aggression or win a fight with words. That i think is the entire point behind the coversation dialogue tree in the first place. It's why we have pursade options, light side and dark side options and the like. You can either talk someone down and take one direction for the quest or just kill them and proceed in the other direction.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Nice post from someone who doesn't appear to like the MMO concept but loves Jedi. I just love selfless people NOT !!!
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel