The problem with things being linear is they lack replayability. SWTOR is more linear than even WoW. In WoW you at least had the choice of different zones to level in withing the same level bracket. In SWTOR you follow the same path every single time and 90% of the quests are exactly the same. This means that when leveling a new character for the touted class story you're going to spend 90% of your time replaying the same stuff the same exact way on the same exact path, it gets boring and tedious.
Boring and tedious is not something people want in a game, especially a MMO that you might expect to play more than 6 months. It is an even bigger blow to Bioware because they were planning on re-rolling being a big thing and with it being so linear it simply isn't fun or worth it for the 10% class story quests. If I want to experience the other class stories it will be easier and funner to just look them up on youtube.
You mentioned something about strawman arguements? I said consumers have a minimal expecation of quality. Nothing about sandbox gamers or mmo gamers. There is many high quality themepark mmo's. But the open world mmo's you listed have very rampant bugs, exploits, and developer incompetence. And themepark games often do not have these problems to anywhere near the same extent.
I'm really getting no where argueing this with you because you just can't accept it.
Read this as to why open world mmo's suffer population wise:
And yes that's wikipedia, but I'm done with this silly ass arguement.
Thak you because i was getting tired and felt like i am beating my head against the wall. Also that 'themepark MMOS do not suffer from rampant bugs, exploits and developer competence in comparison to sandbox MMOS is another fact you pulled out of your ass i think. Let use see hmmm Anarchy online, Warhammer, FFXIV, AOC, STO,CO,DCUO,EQ2, Vanguard, Asheron Call 2...that is 10 examples for you of games which suffered from all these problems.
If anything themepark MMOS suffer from these problems more than sandbox.
After freely roaming vast and open worlds in the past, some people don't like being told to get back in line.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
So, don't point to a large list of shitty, broken, old games and say, "Hey, you know what, those are all the sandboxes you get, stop asking for more," because we're going to continue looking for the sandbox game of the future (and we'll certainly let you know when your game of choice doesn't provide that for us, or if you're uninformed as usual).
Did i expect everyone to love every sandbox MMO on the list? go ahead and make a list of linear themepark MMOS and see how many enter the *shit* list for various reasons. By the way i never said those are all the sand box you get and don't ask for more. Don't try to put words into my mouth. i made that list only because someone said thaty there are not enough sandbox MMOS to choose from.
Talk about strawman argument and hyperbole.
No, I'm not talking about personal opinion, I'm talking bad on the scale of development. Bad as far as stability and bugs are concerned, bad as far as completion and finishing a product is concerned. This has nothing to do with what I like, but what is actually playable. Only four of those games play without considerable bugs, crashing, errors, etc, and I know this from personal experience and troubleshooting (most of these problems are client-wide). Again, just proves to me you've never tried a majority of what you've listed. Maybe you've tried one or two of them? That sure gives you the expertise to speak on the sandbox behalf, for certain.
Oh please as if i need to prove anything to you. I try every themepark and sandbox MMO regardless of buggy nature and you talk as if themepark MMOS hav perfect launches and never suffer from game breaking bugs and incompetent developers. But keep playing that 'neglected sandbox player' card. And i never said i am an expert at anything. You trying to put words into my mouth yet again.
The problem with things being linear is they lack replayability. SWTOR is more linear than even WoW. In WoW you at least had the choice of different zones to level in withing the same level bracket. In SWTOR you follow the same path every single time and 90% of the quests are exactly the same. This means that when leveling a new character for the touted class story you're going to spend 90% of your time replaying the same stuff the same exact way on the same exact path, it gets boring and tedious.
Boring and tedious is not something people want in a game, especially a MMO that you might expect to play more than 6 months. It is an even bigger blow to Bioware because they were planning on re-rolling being a big thing and with it being so linear it simply isn't fun or worth it for the 10% class story quests. If I want to experience the other class stories it will be easier and funner to just look them up on youtube.
Re-rolling as "content" is a joke in my opinion. That is one of the things I hate most about theme parks.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
If I want to experience the other class stories it will be easier and funner to just look them up on youtube.
Heck, you can do that with all games, not much of an argument.
If people are having fun, they rather play themselves than just looking at a YT vid. You didn't have fun, well, too bad for you, other people did have fun. Seems to me you'll just have to find another MMORPG that still can give you any satisfaction, if there's one around.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The problem with things being linear is they lack replayability. SWTOR is more linear than even WoW. In WoW you at least had the choice of different zones to level in withing the same level bracket. In SWTOR you follow the same path every single time and 90% of the quests are exactly the same. This means that when leveling a new character for the touted class story you're going to spend 90% of your time replaying the same stuff the same exact way on the same exact path, it gets boring and tedious.
Boring and tedious is not something people want in a game, especially a MMO that you might expect to play more than 6 months. It is an even bigger blow to Bioware because they were planning on re-rolling being a big thing and with it being so linear it simply isn't fun or worth it for the 10% class story quests. If I want to experience the other class stories it will be easier and funner to just look them up on youtube.
I disagree. I played WoW for years. It had plenty of replayabiltiy due to endgame PvP and PvE. Had a great guild that I played with and we had fun playing.
Also 10% is a very low number of how many class story quests there are. I'd say more like 33% (just an estimate, but more accurate than yours). 90% of the quests are not the same you are just making up random numbers to fit your argument.
Second, some people like rolling alts and leveling again even if ALL the quests are the same. My wife has about 20 wow characters, she's even played through the same class a second time more than once. I personally am not that much of an alt-oholic.
Also, you are completely ignoring the endgame content in this game. Some of us enjoy raiding. I think it is very fun, and millions of other people agree with me.
Finally, this game is anything BUT boring and tedious. Rift was boring and tedious, wow could be boring and tedious when leveling, but this game is not. I don't even feel like I'm leveling when I'm playing. It never ever ever feels grindy to me. It is the most fun I have had in an MMO EVER.
You know, before Skyrim, I might have agreed, linear story isn't so bad. But Bethesda has proven it, time and again, you can have it both ways...and the healthy mix of story and sandbox will keep me playing their game for a long, long time...and it's not even an MMO~!
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
The problem with things being linear is they lack replayability. SWTOR is more linear than even WoW. In WoW you at least had the choice of different zones to level in withing the same level bracket. In SWTOR you follow the same path every single time and 90% of the quests are exactly the same. This means that when leveling a new character for the touted class story you're going to spend 90% of your time replaying the same stuff the same exact way on the same exact path, it gets boring and tedious.
Boring and tedious is not something people want in a game, especially a MMO that you might expect to play more than 6 months. It is an even bigger blow to Bioware because they were planning on re-rolling being a big thing and with it being so linear it simply isn't fun or worth it for the 10% class story quests. If I want to experience the other class stories it will be easier and funner to just look them up on youtube.
Burning Crusade --> Lich King --> Cata --> Panda Land = All Linear. Very Linear.
@ the original poster's subject again, I don't know why we have all this hate for this model. It's nothing new. By no means is the model broken... and if it isn't broke, don't try to fix it.
Things aren't that simple though. If darkfall and MO were run by capable developers like bethesda, they would be extremely more popular. Those two were some of the most hyped mmo's at one point, but when they came out, they were buggy and incomplete, and the companies developing them couldn't handle the game/ deliver expectations.
To say that they failed because they're open world and non-linear is silly, because thats the only reason those games got any attention in the first place.
Well that's true but the opposite is true to, themparks don't fail because they're themeparks...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So, don't point to a large list of shitty, broken, old games and say, "Hey, you know what, those are all the sandboxes you get, stop asking for more," because we're going to continue looking for the sandbox game of the future (and we'll certainly let you know when your game of choice doesn't provide that for us, or if you're uninformed as usual).
Did i expect everyone to love every sandbox MMO on the list? go ahead and make a list of linear themepark MMOS and see how many enter the *shit* list for various reasons. By the way i never said those are all the sand box you get and don't ask for more. Don't try to put words into my mouth. i made that list only because someone said thaty there are not enough sandbox MMOS to choose from.
Talk about strawman argument and hyperbole.
No, I'm not talking about personal opinion, I'm talking bad on the scale of development. Bad as far as stability and bugs are concerned, bad as far as completion and finishing a product is concerned. This has nothing to do with what I like, but what is actually playable. Only four of those games play without considerable bugs, crashing, errors, etc, and I know this from personal experience and troubleshooting (most of these problems are client-wide). Again, just proves to me you've never tried a majority of what you've listed. Maybe you've tried one or two of them? That sure gives you the expertise to speak on the sandbox behalf, for certain.
Oh please as if i need to prove anything to you. I try every themepark and sandbox MMO regardless of buggy nature and you talk as if themepark MMOS hav perfect launches and never suffer from game breaking bugs and incompetent developers. But keep playing that 'neglected sandbox player' card. And i never said i am an expert at anything. You trying to put words into my mouth yet again.
Who's putting words into anyone's mouth? I've made my points over and over again, and you're right - you've got nothing to prove. You can say you try these games all day, but it's obvious that you don't. The sandbox genre is neglected, and to say otherwise is compltely falable. As for being an expert, you're right. You certainly aren't an expert when it comes to the sandbox genre, because if you were, you wouldn't be making the ridiculous statements you are. Rather, you might realize how out of touch you are with the list of games you posted, and might retract the kind of moronic statement that you made. The reason why the sandbox genre isn't doing well has nothing to do with the type of game or what they offer, but that the companies releasing them are releasing half-assed, unfinished, buggy, unplayable products, and there's simply no other perspective upon the subject which could be classified as honest, or truth. As a sandbox MMO player, your selection of games is vastly smaller than that of the themepark, and hardly includes anything from your list.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Who's putting words into anyone's mouth? I've made my points over and over again, and you're right - you've got nothing to prove. You can say you try these games all day, but it's obvious that you don't. The sandbox genre is neglected, and to say otherwise is compltely falable. As for being an expert, you're right. You certainly aren't an expert when it comes to the sandbox genre, because if you were, you wouldn't be making the ridiculous statements you are. Rather, you might realize how out of touch you are with the list of games you posted, and might retract the kind of moronic statement that you made. The reason why the sandbox genre isn't doing well has nothing to do with the type of game or what they offer, but that the companies releasing them are releasing half-assed, unfinished, buggy, unplayable products, and there's simply no other perspective upon the subject which could be classified as honest, or truth. As a sandbox MMO player, your selection of games is vastly smaller than that of the themepark, and hardly includes anything from your list.
And i asked you this before you think themepark are not buggy at launch do not suffer from incompetent devs and unplayable and half assed launches? i even gave names of 10 themepark MMOS which suffered from these problems. When all the millions couldn't save games like FFXIV, WAR and AOC from horrible launches it must tell you that it is not all about the money but people behind those games.
I also believe that you never played any of those sandbox MMOS..yeah there i said it..i am right.. *sticks thumbs into ears..lalalalalal* guess i have to use same reasoning with you lol
Go punch a puppy or something you seem very angry.
I see a lot of people saying that SWTOR is doomed because it's linear. Since when did linear become synonymous with bad? My favorite RPG series to date is Mass Effect, and that's as linear as it gets. Saying SWTOR will fail because it's linear it's like saying Mass Effect is bad because it's not Skyrim. I'm sure plenty of people prefer the former over the latter, myself included.
Pure and simple because there are quite a few gamers out there that would love to see a game world they can interact with without feeling like they are on an imaginary leash.
While I agree with you that linear games can be quite fun, the fact that pretty much all of the AAA MMOs are this way leaves some gamers seriouly annoyed that they don't have a game they can pick that suits their needs. For this game it is also still some of the backlash that this game isn't SWG 2.0, or at least fans hoping this game would somehow be able to be different from the rest of the MMO genre. Something Bioware never promised.
So, don't point to a large list of shitty, broken, old games and say, "Hey, you know what, those are all the sandboxes you get, stop asking for more," because we're going to continue looking for the sandbox game of the future (and we'll certainly let you know when your game of choice doesn't provide that for us, or if you're uninformed as usual).
Did i expect everyone to love every sandbox MMO on the list? go ahead and make a list of linear themepark MMOS and see how many enter the *shit* list for various reasons. By the way i never said those are all the sand box you get and don't ask for more. Don't try to put words into my mouth. i made that list only because someone said thaty there are not enough sandbox MMOS to choose from.
Talk about strawman argument and hyperbole.
No, I'm not talking about personal opinion, I'm talking bad on the scale of development. Bad as far as stability and bugs are concerned, bad as far as completion and finishing a product is concerned. This has nothing to do with what I like, but what is actually playable. Only four of those games play without considerable bugs, crashing, errors, etc, and I know this from personal experience and troubleshooting (most of these problems are client-wide). Again, just proves to me you've never tried a majority of what you've listed. Maybe you've tried one or two of them? That sure gives you the expertise to speak on the sandbox behalf, for certain.
Oh please as if i need to prove anything to you. I try every themepark and sandbox MMO regardless of buggy nature and you talk as if themepark MMOS hav perfect launches and never suffer from game breaking bugs and incompetent developers. But keep playing that 'neglected sandbox player' card. And i never said i am an expert at anything. You trying to put words into my mouth yet again.
Who's putting words into anyone's mouth? I've made my points over and over again, and you're right - you've got nothing to prove. You can say you try these games all day, but it's obvious that you don't. The sandbox genre is neglected, and to say otherwise is compltely falable. As for being an expert, you're right. You certainly aren't an expert when it comes to the sandbox genre, because if you were, you wouldn't be making the ridiculous statements you are. Rather, you might realize how out of touch you are with the list of games you posted, and might retract the kind of moronic statement that you made. The reason why the sandbox genre isn't doing well has nothing to do with the type of game or what they offer, but that the companies releasing them are releasing half-assed, unfinished, buggy, unplayable products, and there's simply no other perspective upon the subject which could be classified as honest, or truth. As a sandbox MMO player, your selection of games is vastly smaller than that of the themepark, and hardly includes anything from your list.
When logic fails...throw insults! works every time!
So why is it, do you think, that the sandbox genre is neglected? Could it be that there isn't that big of a market for it outside of MMORPG.com forum wars?
Most of these games launch with very small populations and slowly decline over time. The genre is niche because it only has a niche audience. The cost of devleoping any MMO (including a sandbox) is getting higher and higher all the time. Noone wants to risk investing that kind of money into something that has shown no real profitability in the past several years. The more and more these games fail, the less likely you are going to see one with the development resources of say Bioware.
It's as simple as that. The sandbox mmo is a dying breed in my opinion. Not that I don't like them (because I do). I just have become fed up with paying money for shoddy games from 3rd rate developers. That and I could never really stand Eve.
To be honest SWG was in my opinion one of the last standing really successful quality sandboxes, besides Eve, and now it's going away.
I really do feel for sandbox fans because I enjoy playing them as well. I hate so see something like that fade away (I don't think they will ever be gone) but I think it's obvious where the market is heading.
Well it's hardly his fault that noone is willing to sink money into a sandbox except small indie devs that release buggy broken games. I've played a lot of those too and with the exception of EVE and a couple others, they are all broken buggy messes. Doesn't that tell you something about the market for these games though? There simply isn't one.
That's some nice backwards logic there. How can you know there's little market for non-linear open world MMOs these days, when no developer has taken it upon themselves to create and release a AAA quality sandbox MMO? You can't.
That would be like sitting back in 2004 and claiming that no western P2P MMO will ever break EQ's 500k concurrent subscriber peak. Had Blizzard believed that, they might not have put as much funding into development of the game as they did. The lower quality due to less funding could have created a self-fulfilling prophecy effect where they never would have gained as many subscribers, because the game wouldn't have been as polished or lacked sufficient content.
Which is the exact problem that most recent non-linear MMOs suffer from. They're underfunded and underdeveloped. That doesn't mean that there is no market, simply that no developer has given a real attempt to take a crack at trying to tap into the non-linear MMO gaming market.
Act actually Eve is actual proof that there is in fact a market for non-linear MMOs. But Eve is still quite niche within even non-linear MMOs due to open PvP and the whole "you're effectively just a spaceship" theme to the game that isn't for everyone.
My question for people that are complaining that SWTOR is not open enough is this: Did you really think it was going to be? Have you even played a Bioware game in the last decade? I mean you're comparing apples to oranges here people and Bioware does what they do and they do it very well.
Personally, no.
Bioware makes extremely linear games, well, since TOR and after it has. Which is also why I find Bioware games so meh, when compared to Bethesda games that are non-linear and open world.
That's not to say that linear games can't be good. Heck I played WoW for six years and enjoyed it a good bit (less so in the end). I just would have enjoyed the game a lot more and probably would still be playing if it wasn't so linear.
In the end it's a matter of preference. But the issue is that linear gameplay is vastly over-represented in MMO gaming, and even all of gaming these days. I think it has far more to do with developers underestimating just how popular and powerful non-linear and open gameplay mechanics can be, and instead opt to churn out linear games because it's cheaper.
Strange thing, i love movies and books, and they are all linear.
True but then you don't get to make any personal impact on these films or books. And once you finish one there are millions of others to chose from. The same cannot be said of MMOs.
When i am done with SW:TOR, there will be another MMO, and another after that.
Even better, i can read SW:TOR 8 times, as there are 8 different major stories.
Keep in mind tough, that i am not an endgame player..... But i will play SW:TOR like i normally read a book, and enjoy its content.... and then move on to another game untill there is enough new content to warrant a return.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
For many folks, on the subconsious level there is a desire to express free will. While we may enjoy books, movies, plays, operas, TV shows, and the like - we're merely spectators to those forms of entertainment. They're passive entertainment. It does not mean that we do not nor cannot enjoy them.
With some games also, we are fine playing through those linear stories. They tend to be shorter games though. In a sense, they're a form of interactive fiction. We interact with that story to a degree, which for many offers greater entertainment than just spectating.
When it comes to RPGs though, for some people it is about the alternate world and "your" story in that world. Whether one is talking about PnP RPGs, early CRPGs, or even some MMORPGs - they are virtual worlds where you drive the story - where you are able to express some degree of free will. You're not a passenger. You're not spectating. You're not merely interacting. You're driving.
The curious thing about it, imho, is that we do not need 100% freedom in the games. We simply need the illusion of having free will - the illusion of choice. If there is a single fork on the path, on a certain level we will enjoy the simple fact we were able to express free will and make a decion - make a choice - that drives the story. The story could be very linear up to that point and continue to be so after that point, but in that point - we've expressed our free will.
So for some people, when they come to a MMORPG - they see it as that alternate reality - that virtual world...with the expectation, even if it is on a subconscious level, of ebeing able to express free will. When they do not have that, it is human nature for them to rebel.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I see a lot of people saying that SWTOR is doomed because it's linear. Since when did linear become synonymous with bad? My favorite RPG series to date is Mass Effect, and that's as linear as it gets. Saying SWTOR will fail because it's linear it's like saying Mass Effect is bad because it's not Skyrim. I'm sure plenty of people prefer the former over the latter, myself included.
I never said it was doomed, but I do think there is only room in the MMO market for 1 true great linear MMO and right now that is WoW.
Most of us who bash SWToR want a return of MMO's to their origins, where the game acts and plays like an adventuring, explorable, do what you want, when you want, free will type of game that is remeniscent of our older Pen & Paper RPG's of our youth. I hate, loath and despise having artificial boundries placed on me because my imagination is greater then the closed minded developers who think that turning MMO's into solo games with little to no sense of a living breathing world is the way to go.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I see a lot of people saying that SWTOR is doomed because it's linear. Since when did linear become synonymous with bad? My favorite RPG series to date is Mass Effect, and that's as linear as it gets. Saying SWTOR will fail because it's linear it's like saying Mass Effect is bad because it's not Skyrim. I'm sure plenty of people prefer the former over the latter, myself included.
I never said it was doomed, but I do think there is only room in the MMO market for 1 true great linear MMO and right now that is WoW.
Most of us who bash SWToR want a return of MMO's to their origins, where the game acts and plays like an adventuring, explorable, do what you want, when you want, free will type of game that is remeniscent of our older Pen & Paper RPG's of our youth. I hate, loath and despise having artificial boundries placed on me because my imagination is greater then the closed minded developers who think that turning MMO's into solo games with little to no sense of a living breathing world is the way to go.
There are plenty of other linear MMO's operating right alongside wow and they have done so for years. Obviously there is room in the market for them if they haven't shut down. Aion is doing just fine, somehow Warhammer has managed to survive, Rift is doing great the list goes on and on. I suppose you're going to tell us that WoW was the first mmo next, right?
In fact, I would say there are for more successful and quality linear mmo's than non-linear. Even if you don't count wow the linear mmos have more subs.
Your baseless assertion will not stand here. Lies and misinformation suck.
I see a lot of people saying that SWTOR is doomed because it's linear. Since when did linear become synonymous with bad? My favorite RPG series to date is Mass Effect, and that's as linear as it gets. Saying SWTOR will fail because it's linear it's like saying Mass Effect is bad because it's not Skyrim. I'm sure plenty of people prefer the former over the latter, myself included.
Comments
The problem with things being linear is they lack replayability. SWTOR is more linear than even WoW. In WoW you at least had the choice of different zones to level in withing the same level bracket. In SWTOR you follow the same path every single time and 90% of the quests are exactly the same. This means that when leveling a new character for the touted class story you're going to spend 90% of your time replaying the same stuff the same exact way on the same exact path, it gets boring and tedious.
Boring and tedious is not something people want in a game, especially a MMO that you might expect to play more than 6 months. It is an even bigger blow to Bioware because they were planning on re-rolling being a big thing and with it being so linear it simply isn't fun or worth it for the 10% class story quests. If I want to experience the other class stories it will be easier and funner to just look them up on youtube.
Thak you because i was getting tired and felt like i am beating my head against the wall. Also that 'themepark MMOS do not suffer from rampant bugs, exploits and developer competence in comparison to sandbox MMOS is another fact you pulled out of your ass i think. Let use see hmmm Anarchy online, Warhammer, FFXIV, AOC, STO,CO,DCUO,EQ2, Vanguard, Asheron Call 2...that is 10 examples for you of games which suffered from all these problems.
If anything themepark MMOS suffer from these problems more than sandbox.
After freely roaming vast and open worlds in the past, some people don't like being told to get back in line.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Oh please as if i need to prove anything to you. I try every themepark and sandbox MMO regardless of buggy nature and you talk as if themepark MMOS hav perfect launches and never suffer from game breaking bugs and incompetent developers. But keep playing that 'neglected sandbox player' card. And i never said i am an expert at anything. You trying to put words into my mouth yet again.
Re-rolling as "content" is a joke in my opinion. That is one of the things I hate most about theme parks.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Heck, you can do that with all games, not much of an argument.
If people are having fun, they rather play themselves than just looking at a YT vid. You didn't have fun, well, too bad for you, other people did have fun. Seems to me you'll just have to find another MMORPG that still can give you any satisfaction, if there's one around.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I disagree. I played WoW for years. It had plenty of replayabiltiy due to endgame PvP and PvE. Had a great guild that I played with and we had fun playing.
Also 10% is a very low number of how many class story quests there are. I'd say more like 33% (just an estimate, but more accurate than yours). 90% of the quests are not the same you are just making up random numbers to fit your argument.
Second, some people like rolling alts and leveling again even if ALL the quests are the same. My wife has about 20 wow characters, she's even played through the same class a second time more than once. I personally am not that much of an alt-oholic.
Also, you are completely ignoring the endgame content in this game. Some of us enjoy raiding. I think it is very fun, and millions of other people agree with me.
Finally, this game is anything BUT boring and tedious. Rift was boring and tedious, wow could be boring and tedious when leveling, but this game is not. I don't even feel like I'm leveling when I'm playing. It never ever ever feels grindy to me. It is the most fun I have had in an MMO EVER.
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
Tera - Dragonfall Server
http://www.shadowshand.com
You know, before Skyrim, I might have agreed, linear story isn't so bad. But Bethesda has proven it, time and again, you can have it both ways...and the healthy mix of story and sandbox will keep me playing their game for a long, long time...and it's not even an MMO~!
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
Burning Crusade --> Lich King --> Cata --> Panda Land = All Linear. Very Linear.
@ the original poster's subject again, I don't know why we have all this hate for this model. It's nothing new. By no means is the model broken... and if it isn't broke, don't try to fix it.
Well that's true but the opposite is true to, themparks don't fail because they're themeparks...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Who's putting words into anyone's mouth? I've made my points over and over again, and you're right - you've got nothing to prove. You can say you try these games all day, but it's obvious that you don't. The sandbox genre is neglected, and to say otherwise is compltely falable. As for being an expert, you're right. You certainly aren't an expert when it comes to the sandbox genre, because if you were, you wouldn't be making the ridiculous statements you are. Rather, you might realize how out of touch you are with the list of games you posted, and might retract the kind of moronic statement that you made. The reason why the sandbox genre isn't doing well has nothing to do with the type of game or what they offer, but that the companies releasing them are releasing half-assed, unfinished, buggy, unplayable products, and there's simply no other perspective upon the subject which could be classified as honest, or truth. As a sandbox MMO player, your selection of games is vastly smaller than that of the themepark, and hardly includes anything from your list.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
And i asked you this before you think themepark are not buggy at launch do not suffer from incompetent devs and unplayable and half assed launches? i even gave names of 10 themepark MMOS which suffered from these problems. When all the millions couldn't save games like FFXIV, WAR and AOC from horrible launches it must tell you that it is not all about the money but people behind those games.
I also believe that you never played any of those sandbox MMOS..yeah there i said it..i am right.. *sticks thumbs into ears..lalalalalal* guess i have to use same reasoning with you lol
Go punch a puppy or something you seem very angry.
QFT. /thread
When logic fails...throw insults! works every time!
So why is it, do you think, that the sandbox genre is neglected? Could it be that there isn't that big of a market for it outside of MMORPG.com forum wars?
Most of these games launch with very small populations and slowly decline over time. The genre is niche because it only has a niche audience. The cost of devleoping any MMO (including a sandbox) is getting higher and higher all the time. Noone wants to risk investing that kind of money into something that has shown no real profitability in the past several years. The more and more these games fail, the less likely you are going to see one with the development resources of say Bioware.
It's as simple as that. The sandbox mmo is a dying breed in my opinion. Not that I don't like them (because I do). I just have become fed up with paying money for shoddy games from 3rd rate developers. That and I could never really stand Eve.
To be honest SWG was in my opinion one of the last standing really successful quality sandboxes, besides Eve, and now it's going away.
I really do feel for sandbox fans because I enjoy playing them as well. I hate so see something like that fade away (I don't think they will ever be gone) but I think it's obvious where the market is heading.
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yep couldnt agree more. no pleasing people.
That's some nice backwards logic there. How can you know there's little market for non-linear open world MMOs these days, when no developer has taken it upon themselves to create and release a AAA quality sandbox MMO? You can't.
That would be like sitting back in 2004 and claiming that no western P2P MMO will ever break EQ's 500k concurrent subscriber peak. Had Blizzard believed that, they might not have put as much funding into development of the game as they did. The lower quality due to less funding could have created a self-fulfilling prophecy effect where they never would have gained as many subscribers, because the game wouldn't have been as polished or lacked sufficient content.
Which is the exact problem that most recent non-linear MMOs suffer from. They're underfunded and underdeveloped. That doesn't mean that there is no market, simply that no developer has given a real attempt to take a crack at trying to tap into the non-linear MMO gaming market.
Act actually Eve is actual proof that there is in fact a market for non-linear MMOs. But Eve is still quite niche within even non-linear MMOs due to open PvP and the whole "you're effectively just a spaceship" theme to the game that isn't for everyone.
Personally, no.
Bioware makes extremely linear games, well, since TOR and after it has. Which is also why I find Bioware games so meh, when compared to Bethesda games that are non-linear and open world.
That's not to say that linear games can't be good. Heck I played WoW for six years and enjoyed it a good bit (less so in the end). I just would have enjoyed the game a lot more and probably would still be playing if it wasn't so linear.
In the end it's a matter of preference. But the issue is that linear gameplay is vastly over-represented in MMO gaming, and even all of gaming these days. I think it has far more to do with developers underestimating just how popular and powerful non-linear and open gameplay mechanics can be, and instead opt to churn out linear games because it's cheaper.
For me, if i wanna play linear content, i'll play SP offline games.
For MMO, its all about exploring virtual worlds.
Basically, SP for storyline. MMO for exploring. Only exceptions are the TES series and fallout.
So yeah, linear with MMO dont really mix (for me) because i can get that content on offline games.
When i am done with SW:TOR, there will be another MMO, and another after that.
Even better, i can read SW:TOR 8 times, as there are 8 different major stories.
Keep in mind tough, that i am not an endgame player..... But i will play SW:TOR like i normally read a book, and enjoy its content.... and then move on to another game untill there is enough new content to warrant a return.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Free Will.
For many folks, on the subconsious level there is a desire to express free will. While we may enjoy books, movies, plays, operas, TV shows, and the like - we're merely spectators to those forms of entertainment. They're passive entertainment. It does not mean that we do not nor cannot enjoy them.
With some games also, we are fine playing through those linear stories. They tend to be shorter games though. In a sense, they're a form of interactive fiction. We interact with that story to a degree, which for many offers greater entertainment than just spectating.
When it comes to RPGs though, for some people it is about the alternate world and "your" story in that world. Whether one is talking about PnP RPGs, early CRPGs, or even some MMORPGs - they are virtual worlds where you drive the story - where you are able to express some degree of free will. You're not a passenger. You're not spectating. You're not merely interacting. You're driving.
The curious thing about it, imho, is that we do not need 100% freedom in the games. We simply need the illusion of having free will - the illusion of choice. If there is a single fork on the path, on a certain level we will enjoy the simple fact we were able to express free will and make a decion - make a choice - that drives the story. The story could be very linear up to that point and continue to be so after that point, but in that point - we've expressed our free will.
So for some people, when they come to a MMORPG - they see it as that alternate reality - that virtual world...with the expectation, even if it is on a subconscious level, of ebeing able to express free will. When they do not have that, it is human nature for them to rebel.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I never said it was doomed, but I do think there is only room in the MMO market for 1 true great linear MMO and right now that is WoW.
Most of us who bash SWToR want a return of MMO's to their origins, where the game acts and plays like an adventuring, explorable, do what you want, when you want, free will type of game that is remeniscent of our older Pen & Paper RPG's of our youth. I hate, loath and despise having artificial boundries placed on me because my imagination is greater then the closed minded developers who think that turning MMO's into solo games with little to no sense of a living breathing world is the way to go.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
There are plenty of other linear MMO's operating right alongside wow and they have done so for years. Obviously there is room in the market for them if they haven't shut down. Aion is doing just fine, somehow Warhammer has managed to survive, Rift is doing great the list goes on and on. I suppose you're going to tell us that WoW was the first mmo next, right?
In fact, I would say there are for more successful and quality linear mmo's than non-linear. Even if you don't count wow the linear mmos have more subs.
Your baseless assertion will not stand here. Lies and misinformation suck.
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
Tera - Dragonfall Server
http://www.shadowshand.com
It all comes down to preference.
People bash what they dont like and feel the need to spam badness about it.
People are awaiting the perfect mmo wich will never come.
There will always be things you do not like in a good mmo.
I was very sceptical about SW at first, and was disaointed about many things in it.
Combat
Animations
World setup
Graphics
I dint like it one bit.
But when you compare this to wow i would change to SW in a heartbeat, iam now awaiting its launch and will be there untill GW2 arrives.
Like many people already said, play what you like most.
Would you pay a monthly sub for Mass Effect?