Most people do not know what linear even means when it comes to story-telling or game design. They just throw the word around because many view it as a negative when relating to RPGs.
Mass Effect and Dragon Age were not linear. They might have had some linear content, like dungeons/instances, but largely the story-telling and game design was non-linear.
Linear means that you have no choice between points A, B and C. If there is a different path that you can take to reach C, for example:
Linear:
A > B > X
Non-linear
A > B > D >C or A > D > C
Many FPS campaigns have very linear gamedesign from both level and storytelling point of view. Most RPGs do not have this even tho some of their content might be linear.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
It is kind of funny, in a sense, how pertinent the recent announcement of the formation of the company Goblinworks and their announcement of the game Pathfinder Online and what they say in their FAQ:
How is Pathfinder Online different from World of Warcraft or any other fantasy MMO?
Most fantasy MMOs, including World of Warcraft, are "theme park" games. In theme parks, you're expected to work your way through a lot of scripted content until you reach the end, and then you play end-game content while you wait for the developers to release more theme park content so you can continue to advance your character.
The other end of the MMO spectrum is the "sandbox" game. In sandboxes, you're given a lot of tools and opportunities to create persistency in the world, then turned loose to explore, develop, find adventure, and dominate the world as you wish. You and the other players generate the primary content of the game by struggling with each other for resources, honor and territory. There is no "end game" and no level cap.
Pathfinder Online is a sandbox game with theme park elements. You'll be able to create your own place in the world of Golarion, complete with complex social and economic systems. You'll form ad-hoc or permanent groups ranging in size from small parties to large settlements and even huge nations, and interact with others in your world in a realistic, unscripted fashion. You'll also be able to participate in scripted adventures, though, with the outcome of those adventures helping to determine the shape of your world.
They are not claiming to be a sandbox, and even as they are distancing themselves from themeparks - they're acknowledging that some people want themepark elements.
They're providing choices - something that will not be linear - yet, something that will also not be the miasma that some people see in sandboxes.
The problem with linear is the lack of choice. The problem with sandboxes is usally too many choices.
What Goblinworks intends to do at some point with Pathfinder Online, is what a lot of folks have been asking for - that hybrid sandbox/themepark or hybrid themepark/sandbox.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Most people do not know what linear even means when it comes to story-telling or game design. They just throw the word around because many view it as a negative when relating to RPGs.
Mass Effect and Dragon Age were not linear. They might have had some linear content, like dungeons/instances, but largely the story-telling and game design was non-linear.
Linear means that you have no choice between points A, B and C. If there is a different path that you can take to reach C, for example:
Linear:
A > B > X
Non-linear
A > B > D >C or A > D > C
Many FPS campaigns have very linear gamedesign from both level and storytelling point of view. Most RPGs do not have this even tho some of their content might be linear.
being linear or not in mmorgs is affected a little by questlines being linear or not, but its not the critical factor, its wether the game has a begining -> endgame logical progression. If all the games strands of functionality all loop and twist but take the player invariably to an end-point then you can begin to say that it is linear. Look at Eve, Horizontal and vertical progression, no end game, this is an obvious benchark of what is not linear. WOW is linear, SWTOR is less linear as it offers a richer replay experience. Bear in mind though, once you have replayed x times and all your chars are at end-game then you are back to where WOW is.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
It is kind of funny, in a sense, how pertinent the recent announcement of the formation of the company Goblinworks and their announcement of the game Pathfinder Online and what they say in their FAQ:
How is Pathfinder Online different from World of Warcraft or any other fantasy MMO?
Most fantasy MMOs, including World of Warcraft, are "theme park" games. In theme parks, you're expected to work your way through a lot of scripted content until you reach the end, and then you play end-game content while you wait for the developers to release more theme park content so you can continue to advance your character.
The other end of the MMO spectrum is the "sandbox" game. In sandboxes, you're given a lot of tools and opportunities to create persistency in the world, then turned loose to explore, develop, find adventure, and dominate the world as you wish. You and the other players generate the primary content of the game by struggling with each other for resources, honor and territory. There is no "end game" and no level cap.
Pathfinder Online is a sandbox game with theme park elements. You'll be able to create your own place in the world of Golarion, complete with complex social and economic systems. You'll form ad-hoc or permanent groups ranging in size from small parties to large settlements and even huge nations, and interact with others in your world in a realistic, unscripted fashion. You'll also be able to participate in scripted adventures, though, with the outcome of those adventures helping to determine the shape of your world.
They are not claiming to be a sandbox, and even as they are distancing themselves from themeparks - they're acknowledging that some people want themepark elements.
They're providing choices - something that will not be linear - yet, something that will also not be the miasma that some people see in sandboxes.
The problem with linear is the lack of choice. The problem with sandboxes is usally too many choices.
What Goblinworks intends to do at some point with Pathfinder Online, is what a lot of folks have been asking for - that hybrid sandbox/themepark or hybrid themepark/sandbox.
Well there ya go folks.
No need to whine in this games forum, as someone is making a game for you.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Most people do not know what linear even means when it comes to story-telling or game design. They just throw the word around because many view it as a negative when relating to RPGs.
Mass Effect and Dragon Age were not linear. They might have had some linear content, like dungeons/instances, but largely the story-telling and game design was non-linear.
Linear means that you have no choice between points A, B and C. If there is a different path that you can take to reach C, for example:
Linear:
A > B > X
Non-linear
A > B > D >C or A > D > C
Many FPS campaigns have very linear gamedesign from both level and storytelling point of view. Most RPGs do not have this even tho some of their content might be linear.
being linear or not in mmorgs is affected a little by questlines being linear or not, but its not the critical factor, its wether the game has a begining -> endgame logical progression. If all the games strands of functionality all loop and twist but take the player invariably to an end-point then you can begin to say that it is linear. Look at Eve, Horizontal and vertical progression, no end game, this is an obvious benchark of what is not linear. WOW is linear, SWTOR is less linear as it offers a richer replay experience. Bear in mind though, once you have replayed x times and all your chars are at end-game then you are back to where WOW is.
Well, in a linear there is no different paths to the end, just one. My point was about redefinomg tjee meaning of the word when it suits an argument...I would leave that to American politicians. Linear is a simple concept, but people simply use it incorrectly. Having multiple paths from the beginning to the end, is non-linear. Having only one path is linear. Simple.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Most people do not know what linear even means when it comes to story-telling or game design. They just throw the word around because many view it as a negative when relating to RPGs.
Mass Effect and Dragon Age were not linear. They might have had some linear content, like dungeons/instances, but largely the story-telling and game design was non-linear.
Linear means that you have no choice between points A, B and C. If there is a different path that you can take to reach C, for example:
Linear:
A > B > X
Non-linear
A > B > D >C or A > D > C
Many FPS campaigns have very linear gamedesign from both level and storytelling point of view. Most RPGs do not have this even tho some of their content might be linear.
being linear or not in mmorgs is affected a little by questlines being linear or not, but its not the critical factor, its wether the game has a begining -> endgame logical progression. If all the games strands of functionality all loop and twist but take the player invariably to an end-point then you can begin to say that it is linear. Look at Eve, Horizontal and vertical progression, no end game, this is an obvious benchark of what is not linear. WOW is linear, SWTOR is less linear as it offers a richer replay experience. Bear in mind though, once you have replayed x times and all your chars are at end-game then you are back to where WOW is.
Well, in a linear there is no different paths to the end, just one. My point was about redefinomg tjee meaning of the word when it suits an argument...I would leave that to American politicians. Linear is a simple concept, but people simply use it incorrectly. Having multiple paths from the beginning to the end, is non-linear. Having only one path is linear. Simple.
Its far from simple. In your example what path? A physical path? A narrative path? A level progression path?
They can be all linear or non-linear. So how can one say what is a "linear game" in the first place and who is using the word "properly" and who is "redefining it".
Fact is, "linear game" is undefined, its open to questioning and interpretation.
If I say WoW is linear i don't of course mean that its a corridor from level 1-85 but that the questing is linear, the level and character-progression is linear and the narrative is linear. But the world is far from linear.
If you say SW:TOR is linear you might mean character and level progression, questing, but -not- narrative.
In both cases -both- of us are right to call the respective games linear with our -justification-
Now we can weight both games against eachother and point out that SWTOR is -less- linear than WoW because it adds a non-linear narrative (if you can even call it that, but i digress), but nothing makes SWTOR completely non-linear.
Linear elements in gaming have been around for a long time and for good reason because they signify progression and are generally easy to pull off than non-linear elements. I struggle to come up with a non-linear game in all aspects but i can't think of one right now.
If I say WoW is linear i don't of course mean that its a corridor from level 1-85 but that the questing is linear, the level and character-progression is linear and the narrative is linear. But the world is far from linear.
Hrmmm... can you elaborate on this?
No doubt, leveling - in just talking about the level itself - is linear. You go from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 85...
What do you mean by the questing is linear though? Having acknowledged that it is not a corridor, I am confused by what you mean by questing is linear. Are particular quest chains linear? Well, yes - they are quest chains. There is not a single quest chain from 1 to 85 though. You can also go from 1 to 85 without questing...or picking and choosing quests at your leisure.
What do you mean by character-progression is linear? That you have options as far as talents, suggests this is not the case. Even in gear progression - as long as there are options for gear, even in how you gem - that would not really be the case.
I'm also kind of confused about saying the world is not linear but the narrative is. In talking about the story, well yes - the overall story is going to be linear - it's a static story, told time and time again. Most games are going to have that. I suppose when I think of the world, I tend to think of the story - and with the one being, well then the other is as well. Unless you mean something else by the world.
To an extent, it mainly goes to what you were saying about people viewing things in different ways (I'm a big proponent of the fact that people spend more time arguing on the forums because of a term that holds different meaning to them than what they actually think they are arguing about - if we do not have common terms or at least agreed upon terms for a particular conversation, then it tends to end up being rather pointless).
I think some of us use the term linear to represent some part of the game being static, rather than the game itself actually being linear.
I could make five Dwarf Warriors...and they could all experience different paths and adventures on their way to the level cap. They could all end up geared differently. No doubt, they might experience the odd bottleneck here and there where the paths cross - but then they would once again return to their varied paths.
My issue would be - that I could make five hundred Dwarf Warriors and have them all experience the exact same thing and end up geared the exact same way...
...so more often than not, it is not the case that a game is actually linear - but rather - it is static and the linear path exists.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I see a lot of people saying that SWTOR is doomed because it's linear. Since when did linear become synonymous with bad? My favorite RPG series to date is Mass Effect, and that's as linear as it gets. Saying SWTOR will fail because it's linear it's like saying Mass Effect is bad because it's not Skyrim. I'm sure plenty of people prefer the former over the latter, myself included.
I don't think it is.
Generally are gamers one of 2 types, the ones that want linear and the sandbox people.
Most MMOs are linear, but I think TOR gets an extra bashing from the old SWG vets that wanted a new SW sandbox.
Linear do have one drawback though, it tends to get boring faster than sandboxes. It is no biggie in singleplayer games but in MMOs a few months of fun seems rather short. At least is that true for me, I spent a lot longer in Daggerfall than Baldurs gate and CIV is still my favorite game even though I loved Biowares Neverwinter nights as well.
Since many players have been playing Wow since vanilla and it is one of the most linear games ever not all people do tire of it after a few months (or earlier) but I don't think those are the people complaining.
Originally posted by VirusDancer Originally posted by AdamTM If I say WoW is linear i don't of course mean that its a corridor from level 1-85 but that the questing is linear, the level and character-progression is linear and the narrative is linear. But the world is far from linear.
Hrmmm... can you elaborate on this? No doubt, leveling - in just talking about the level itself - is linear. You go from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 85... What do you mean by the questing is linear though? Having acknowledged that it is not a corridor, I am confused by what you mean by questing is linear. Are particular quest chains linear? Well, yes - they are quest chains. There is not a single quest chain from 1 to 85 though. You can also go from 1 to 85 without questing...or picking and choosing quests at your leisure. What do you mean by character-progression is linear? That you have options as far as talents, suggests this is not the case. Even in gear progression - as long as there are options for gear, even in how you gem - that would not really be the case. I'm also kind of confused about saying the world is not linear but the narrative is. In talking about the story, well yes - the overall story is going to be linear - it's a static story, told time and time again. Most games are going to have that. I suppose when I think of the world, I tend to think of the story - and with the one being, well then the other is as well. Unless you mean something else by the world. To an extent, it mainly goes to what you were saying about people viewing things in different ways (I'm a big proponent of the fact that people spend more time arguing on the forums because of a term that holds different meaning to them than what they actually think they are arguing about - if we do not have common terms or at least agreed upon terms for a particular conversation, then it tends to end up being rather pointless). I think some of us use the term linear to represent some part of the game being static, rather than the game itself actually being linear. I could make five Dwarf Warriors...and they could all experience different paths and adventures on their way to the level cap. They could all end up geared differently. No doubt, they might experience the odd bottleneck here and there where the paths cross - but then they would once again return to their varied paths. My issue would be - that I could make five hundred Dwarf Warriors and have them all experience the exact same thing and end up geared the exact same way... ...so more often than not, it is not the case that a game is actually linear - but rather - it is static and the linear path exists.
Having recently played WoW (and having put it down again) I feel like I can comment on WoW's linearity.
Questing (up to max level) - One quest leads to the next quest or quest area (usually). However, there's also the option to pick up quests that take you to different areas. You can pick a new location, head there and continue on your journey. The player gets to choose whether or not to follow a single quest line to the end or whether or not to jump about and explore the available options. That's what being more than 5 years old gets you. It's not very linear at all.
Question (at max level) - you don't really quest at max level. If you do, you have fewer max level questing options. Usually what you'd do is follow a progression path of dungeons and raids or battlegrounds and arenas. It's pretty linear.
Character Progression (up through max level) - You actually have three choices per character how you want to progress your character's skills. You also get the option to progress along two different paths for your character, switching back and forth as you feel like it. It's not very linear at all.
Character Progression (at max level) - You have about three choices. PvP purples through battlegrounds, PvP purples through arenas, PvE purples through raiding or PvE purples through heroic dungeons. Each of those paths is very linear as there's really only one set of 'best' gear per path. A portion of each of the paths overlap too. You'll do battlegrounds before hitting arenas, and you'll do heroic instances before hitting raids. So there are some choices, but not many. It's very linear.
Crafting - is linear. You pick a profession and follow a path. There are even guides to give you the 'best' path. There are very few actual choices.
So for WoW at least, leveling is not linear (other than crafting). Once you are at max level, the game becomes very linear.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I honestly don't know why people say the game is linear, once I got the beta invite I was expect Final Fantasy 13. I was so surprised when the game I got to play wasn't anything like that. It was so open and exploring was nice and it just felt very non linear to me except in storyline as far as places you have to go. You even got to make choices of to kill or not to kill in the story and that itself even takes away from any lineararity that there may be for me personally. I was extremely surprised that I hear any bad things about the game after playing it because it actually has blown me away more than any MMO in the past 10 years. This game will be a major success because it has so much content right at launch and will always have more content added.
Although I was asking him specificially to elaborate on what he meant, I did want to go ahead and reply to this as well. I have played WoW off and on since beta through about a week after I bought Cataclysm.
I wanted to address the items you found to be linear.
@Max Level - Questing: Upon reaching the level cap, I would often find myself roaming around and doing low-level quests that I had not done on my path to the various level caps. But as to what you said about it being linear because you follow four paths...well, if there are four paths to follow - it's not really linear is it? There's still that choice - and heck - there are other choices as well, because there are other things to do outside of dungeons, raiding, battlegrounds, and arena when level capped.
@Max Level - Character Progression: Again here, you present us with four choices - yet call it linear. Well, no - as you are talking about them, you call each linear - you do not call it overall linear character progression until the end. But still, if you have four (actually more) gear paths - you have choice, so it is not really linear in of itself. Yes, the items themselves may follow a linear progression in most situations - but given the ways in which you can change the stats of said gear - more choices open up.
@Crafting: Once again, you acknowledge there are choices - sure, not more than you can shake a stick at - but there are choices all the same. No doubt there are paths that will allow you to max crafting the fastest or perhaps the cheapest; but even there again - there is some chocie.
It's not a case of trying to argue with you here over whether WoW is linear or not, different people are going to see it differently - it should not be a case of trying to convince somebody else that they are wrong (that rarely works, lol). It is more a case of exploring how different people might see things, understanding how they might see them differently, and deciding whether your own views on such a thing will change or not.
Generally speaking, I cannot really think of too many games that are what I would consider linear. Static yes, subject to being linear - most definitely, but simply to call them linear - I have a hard time with that.
No doubt though, there are some games out there that I find to be very linear...
...but I often wonder if people are not using the term linear when they are really thinking about something else.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Why all the hate for linear? go play Aion and you will see why all the hate for linear!
This makes absoultely zero sense, its like saying why all the hate fo0r action movies or sandbox mmos? just go watch this 1 action movie or play this 1 sandbox lololllolol.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Because MMORPGs were not originally about following a linear path from level 1 to X, it was about "living" in a virtual world where, within reason, you had the freedom to go wherever you want and do whatever you feel like.
you had the freedom to go wherever you want and do whatever you feel like.
Cue Janis: "Freedom's just another word for damn this grind is dull...."
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
To understand why there is so much "hate" for linear MMOs, you must first understand why there is so much love for non-linear MMOs.
I point you to Skyrim and it's rave success to get some idea as to why many gamers prefer open gameplay in an expansive game world.
Some of you folks need to give it a rest.
Skyrim plays like a typical open world themepark. It sure isnt an Uncle Owen Wars game. Sp sandbox != MMO sandbox.
I wish it were, though. I'd love it if it had the sort of "endgame" where I could be the Jarl of my own village, to customize my own way, and that sort of thing. Or at least build a farm or something.
Then again, I'm a real sandbox fan. I'll probably try TOR, hopefully enjoy it as much as Mass Effect or Dragon Age, but I have no intention of playing it past the first free month.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Originally posted by VirusDancer Originally posted by lizardbones
Having recently played WoW (and having put it down again) I feel like I can comment on WoW's linearity.
Questing (up to max level) - ...snip... not linear.
Questing (at max level) - ...snip... linear.
Character Progression (up through max level) - ...snip... not linear.
Character Progression (at max level) - ...snip... linear.
Crafting - ...snip... linear.
So for WoW at least, leveling is not linear (other than crafting). Once you are at max level, the game becomes very linear.
Sorry for all the snippage, but your post is there if somebody wants to read the unabridged version: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4563669#4563669 Although I was asking him specificially to elaborate on what he meant, I did want to go ahead and reply to this as well. I have played WoW off and on since beta through about a week after I bought Cataclysm. I wanted to address the items you found to be linear. @Max Level - Questing: Upon reaching the level cap, I would often find myself roaming around and doing low-level quests that I had not done on my path to the various level caps. But as to what you said about it being linear because you follow four paths...well, if there are four paths to follow - it's not really linear is it? There's still that choice - and heck - there are other choices as well, because there are other things to do outside of dungeons, raiding, battlegrounds, and arena when level capped. @Max Level - Character Progression: Again here, you present us with four choices - yet call it linear. Well, no - as you are talking about them, you call each linear - you do not call it overall linear character progression until the end. But still, if you have four (actually more) gear paths - you have choice, so it is not really linear in of itself. Yes, the items themselves may follow a linear progression in most situations - but given the ways in which you can change the stats of said gear - more choices open up. @Crafting: Once again, you acknowledge there are choices - sure, not more than you can shake a stick at - but there are choices all the same. No doubt there are paths that will allow you to max crafting the fastest or perhaps the cheapest; but even there again - there is some chocie. It's not a case of trying to argue with you here over whether WoW is linear or not, different people are going to see it differently - it should not be a case of trying to convince somebody else that they are wrong (that rarely works, lol). It is more a case of exploring how different people might see things, understanding how they might see them differently, and deciding whether your own views on such a thing will change or not. Generally speaking, I cannot really think of too many games that are what I would consider linear. Static yes, subject to being linear - most definitely, but simply to call them linear - I have a hard time with that. No doubt though, there are some games out there that I find to be very linear... ...but I often wonder if people are not using the term linear when they are really thinking about something else.
It's more of a scale of Linearity. MMORPG cannot exist with a totally linear nature the same way that a game like Half Life(2) does. It just wouldn't work. A better description for mmorpg would be 'more linear' or 'less linear'. I supposed it's entirely possible to have a completely nonlinear mmorpg experience, while it's not possible to have a completely linear mmorpg experience.
Crafting has choices, but they don't matter. You will always end up at the same place. You will always get the same recipes and you will always make a certain number of certain things (with very few exceptions). It is an incredibly linear experience. Even at end game there is always one good recipe to get at whatever level your crafting skill is or at whatever stage of end game progression you are in. It is the most linear experience I think you'll find in an mmorpg, even if it isn't perfectly linear.
The other experiences you'll find in WoW are less linear than that, but some things are still a very linear experience. There's one best set of gear to acquire at max level for your class and talents...until the next raid releases and then there's exactly one more set of gear. Ditto for the PvP path as well. There's exactly one best set of gear for your class and talents. The player's experience goes from nonlinear (planar?) to linear. I supposed though that the experience is more repetitive than linear.
None of that means WoW is a linear game. There are just some very linear experiences in the game. Overall the game is full of choices to make and paths to follow. I think people see what they want to see though...none of the nonlinear content in WoW matters because linear content exists if you believe WoW to be a linear game.
None^2 of this really explains why some people equate linear to bad. Half Life 2 is as linear as you can get and I enjoyed the cr@p out of that game. Fallout 3 was pretty nonlinear and I enjoyed the cr@p out of that game too.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's more of a scale of Linearity. MMORPG cannot exist with a totally linear nature the same way that a game like Half Life(2) does. It just wouldn't work. A better description for mmorpg would be 'more linear' or 'less linear'. I supposed it's entirely possible to have a completely nonlinear mmorpg experience, while it's not possible to have a completely linear mmorpg experience.
I really wish we could +1 posts, heh. Yeah, I know that things would get abused with folks +1/-1 other folks; but I really think what you said here deserves a +1.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
It's more of a scale of Linearity. MMORPG cannot exist with a totally linear nature the same way that a game like Half Life(2) does. It just wouldn't work. A better description for mmorpg would be 'more linear' or 'less linear'. I supposed it's entirely possible to have a completely nonlinear mmorpg experience, while it's not possible to have a completely linear mmorpg experience.
I really wish we could +1 posts, heh. Yeah, I know that things would get abused with folks +1/-1 other folks; but I really think what you said here deserves a +1.
Thank you. Sometimes the caffeine works. Most of the time it convinces me that random nonsense is fact.
** edit ** It also, for some reason, convinces me that I should tell people the random nonsense.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I see a lot of people saying that SWTOR is doomed because it's linear. Since when did linear become synonymous with bad? My favorite RPG series to date is Mass Effect, and that's as linear as it gets. Saying SWTOR will fail because it's linear it's like saying Mass Effect is bad because it's not Skyrim. I'm sure plenty of people prefer the former over the latter, myself included.
Would you pay a monthly sub for Mass Effect?
I dont know about the guy you quoted, but if I had a chance to get monthly updates to my ME games, you can bet I would. The ME series is my favorite of all time.
The only DLC I have yet to purchase for 360 is the comic, as I already have it on my PS3 copy of ME2. On 360, you can simply import saves to Me2 from ME1. I would of much preferred to of been paying a monthly fee, and having DLC coming out faster.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Why all the hate for linear? go play Aion and you will see why all the hate for linear!
This makes absoultely zero sense, its like saying why all the hate fo0r action movies or sandbox mmos? just go watch this 1 action movie or play this 1 sandbox lololllolol.
Linear is not a genre like "action" or "sandbox", linear is a flaw.
If I say WoW is linear i don't of course mean that its a corridor from level 1-85 but that the questing is linear, the level and character-progression is linear and the narrative is linear. But the world is far from linear.
Hrmmm... can you elaborate on this?
No doubt, leveling - in just talking about the level itself - is linear. You go from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 85...
What do you mean by the questing is linear though? Having acknowledged that it is not a corridor, I am confused by what you mean by questing is linear. Are particular quest chains linear? Well, yes - they are quest chains. There is not a single quest chain from 1 to 85 though. You can also go from 1 to 85 without questing...or picking and choosing quests at your leisure.
What do you mean by character-progression is linear? That you have options as far as talents, suggests this is not the case. Even in gear progression - as long as there are options for gear, even in how you gem - that would not really be the case.
I'm also kind of confused about saying the world is not linear but the narrative is. In talking about the story, well yes - the overall story is going to be linear - it's a static story, told time and time again. Most games are going to have that. I suppose when I think of the world, I tend to think of the story - and with the one being, well then the other is as well. Unless you mean something else by the world.
To an extent, it mainly goes to what you were saying about people viewing things in different ways (I'm a big proponent of the fact that people spend more time arguing on the forums because of a term that holds different meaning to them than what they actually think they are arguing about - if we do not have common terms or at least agreed upon terms for a particular conversation, then it tends to end up being rather pointless).
I think some of us use the term linear to represent some part of the game being static, rather than the game itself actually being linear.
I could make five Dwarf Warriors...and they could all experience different paths and adventures on their way to the level cap. They could all end up geared differently. No doubt, they might experience the odd bottleneck here and there where the paths cross - but then they would once again return to their varied paths.
My issue would be - that I could make five hundred Dwarf Warriors and have them all experience the exact same thing and end up geared the exact same way...
...so more often than not, it is not the case that a game is actually linear - but rather - it is static and the linear path exists.
Really quick, because its late here where I am and someone else already covered most of what I would answer.
Linear as a word has as many meanings as a tree has leaves, but when I am talking about linearity I tend to distinguish between
a. problems
b. choices
If I present you with this dillema:
"Do you want a punch in the face or 1000 dollars?"
This is a problem, not a choice. The problem can be solved to get the maximal benefit. It has a set unambiguous solution. Its linear.
If I say (given that you like apples and oranges equally):
"Do you want an apple or an orange?"
This is a choice, not a problem. It does not have a solution, the outcome is an actual choice, you might weight your craving for sweet or sour but either pick is not "better" than the other.
The same applies to WoW-esque leveling. Yes you can "decide" to equip a dagger with a shield as an Arms Warrior, but you are consciously playing the game wrong. In WoW everything is a problem to be solved. Be it talents, gemming or loot.
Keep in mind I am only talking about the game-design here, not the user-generated content like it often happens on RP servers, thats a completely different discussion.
Also narrative =/= story. Narrative is the presentation of events (story). A linear narrative has no choice in its presentation. A non-linear narrative has choice in its presentation. I can create a narrative in a game that has completely no dialogue or let the player create the narrative himself and create his own story in the process.
WoWs narrative is entirely linear, SW:TORs narrative is less linear (although badly implemented as well)
The gaming industry just hasn't defined its terms yet, its borrowing a lot from other media like TV and Movies but a lot of those terms do not fully apply and nobody really thinks about these terms.
Forums are the place where terms get solidified, thats what we are here for.
Comments
Most people do not know what linear even means when it comes to story-telling or game design. They just throw the word around because many view it as a negative when relating to RPGs.
Mass Effect and Dragon Age were not linear. They might have had some linear content, like dungeons/instances, but largely the story-telling and game design was non-linear.
Linear means that you have no choice between points A, B and C. If there is a different path that you can take to reach C, for example:
Linear:
A > B > X
Non-linear
A > B > D >C or A > D > C
Many FPS campaigns have very linear gamedesign from both level and storytelling point of view. Most RPGs do not have this even tho some of their content might be linear.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
It is kind of funny, in a sense, how pertinent the recent announcement of the formation of the company Goblinworks and their announcement of the game Pathfinder Online and what they say in their FAQ:
https://goblinworks.com/faq/
How is Pathfinder Online different from World of Warcraft or any other fantasy MMO?
Most fantasy MMOs, including World of Warcraft, are "theme park" games. In theme parks, you're expected to work your way through a lot of scripted content until you reach the end, and then you play end-game content while you wait for the developers to release more theme park content so you can continue to advance your character.
The other end of the MMO spectrum is the "sandbox" game. In sandboxes, you're given a lot of tools and opportunities to create persistency in the world, then turned loose to explore, develop, find adventure, and dominate the world as you wish. You and the other players generate the primary content of the game by struggling with each other for resources, honor and territory. There is no "end game" and no level cap.
Pathfinder Online is a sandbox game with theme park elements. You'll be able to create your own place in the world of Golarion, complete with complex social and economic systems. You'll form ad-hoc or permanent groups ranging in size from small parties to large settlements and even huge nations, and interact with others in your world in a realistic, unscripted fashion. You'll also be able to participate in scripted adventures, though, with the outcome of those adventures helping to determine the shape of your world.
They are not claiming to be a sandbox, and even as they are distancing themselves from themeparks - they're acknowledging that some people want themepark elements.
They're providing choices - something that will not be linear - yet, something that will also not be the miasma that some people see in sandboxes.
The problem with linear is the lack of choice. The problem with sandboxes is usally too many choices.
What Goblinworks intends to do at some point with Pathfinder Online, is what a lot of folks have been asking for - that hybrid sandbox/themepark or hybrid themepark/sandbox.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
being linear or not in mmorgs is affected a little by questlines being linear or not, but its not the critical factor, its wether the game has a begining -> endgame logical progression. If all the games strands of functionality all loop and twist but take the player invariably to an end-point then you can begin to say that it is linear. Look at Eve, Horizontal and vertical progression, no end game, this is an obvious benchark of what is not linear. WOW is linear, SWTOR is less linear as it offers a richer replay experience. Bear in mind though, once you have replayed x times and all your chars are at end-game then you are back to where WOW is.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Some of you folks need to give it a rest.
Skyrim plays like a typical open world themepark. It sure isnt an Uncle Owen Wars game. Sp sandbox != MMO sandbox.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Well there ya go folks.
No need to whine in this games forum, as someone is making a game for you.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Well, in a linear there is no different paths to the end, just one. My point was about redefinomg tjee meaning of the word when it suits an argument...I would leave that to American politicians. Linear is a simple concept, but people simply use it incorrectly. Having multiple paths from the beginning to the end, is non-linear. Having only one path is linear. Simple.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Its far from simple. In your example what path? A physical path? A narrative path? A level progression path?
They can be all linear or non-linear. So how can one say what is a "linear game" in the first place and who is using the word "properly" and who is "redefining it".
Fact is, "linear game" is undefined, its open to questioning and interpretation.
If I say WoW is linear i don't of course mean that its a corridor from level 1-85 but that the questing is linear, the level and character-progression is linear and the narrative is linear. But the world is far from linear.
If you say SW:TOR is linear you might mean character and level progression, questing, but -not- narrative.
In both cases -both- of us are right to call the respective games linear with our -justification-
Now we can weight both games against eachother and point out that SWTOR is -less- linear than WoW because it adds a non-linear narrative (if you can even call it that, but i digress), but nothing makes SWTOR completely non-linear.
Linear elements in gaming have been around for a long time and for good reason because they signify progression and are generally easy to pull off than non-linear elements. I struggle to come up with a non-linear game in all aspects but i can't think of one right now.
Hrmmm... can you elaborate on this?
No doubt, leveling - in just talking about the level itself - is linear. You go from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 85...
What do you mean by the questing is linear though? Having acknowledged that it is not a corridor, I am confused by what you mean by questing is linear. Are particular quest chains linear? Well, yes - they are quest chains. There is not a single quest chain from 1 to 85 though. You can also go from 1 to 85 without questing...or picking and choosing quests at your leisure.
What do you mean by character-progression is linear? That you have options as far as talents, suggests this is not the case. Even in gear progression - as long as there are options for gear, even in how you gem - that would not really be the case.
I'm also kind of confused about saying the world is not linear but the narrative is. In talking about the story, well yes - the overall story is going to be linear - it's a static story, told time and time again. Most games are going to have that. I suppose when I think of the world, I tend to think of the story - and with the one being, well then the other is as well. Unless you mean something else by the world.
To an extent, it mainly goes to what you were saying about people viewing things in different ways (I'm a big proponent of the fact that people spend more time arguing on the forums because of a term that holds different meaning to them than what they actually think they are arguing about - if we do not have common terms or at least agreed upon terms for a particular conversation, then it tends to end up being rather pointless).
I think some of us use the term linear to represent some part of the game being static, rather than the game itself actually being linear.
I could make five Dwarf Warriors...and they could all experience different paths and adventures on their way to the level cap. They could all end up geared differently. No doubt, they might experience the odd bottleneck here and there where the paths cross - but then they would once again return to their varied paths.
My issue would be - that I could make five hundred Dwarf Warriors and have them all experience the exact same thing and end up geared the exact same way...
...so more often than not, it is not the case that a game is actually linear - but rather - it is static and the linear path exists.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I don't think it is.
Generally are gamers one of 2 types, the ones that want linear and the sandbox people.
Most MMOs are linear, but I think TOR gets an extra bashing from the old SWG vets that wanted a new SW sandbox.
Linear do have one drawback though, it tends to get boring faster than sandboxes. It is no biggie in singleplayer games but in MMOs a few months of fun seems rather short. At least is that true for me, I spent a lot longer in Daggerfall than Baldurs gate and CIV is still my favorite game even though I loved Biowares Neverwinter nights as well.
Since many players have been playing Wow since vanilla and it is one of the most linear games ever not all people do tire of it after a few months (or earlier) but I don't think those are the people complaining.
No doubt, leveling - in just talking about the level itself - is linear. You go from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 85...
What do you mean by the questing is linear though? Having acknowledged that it is not a corridor, I am confused by what you mean by questing is linear. Are particular quest chains linear? Well, yes - they are quest chains. There is not a single quest chain from 1 to 85 though. You can also go from 1 to 85 without questing...or picking and choosing quests at your leisure.
What do you mean by character-progression is linear? That you have options as far as talents, suggests this is not the case. Even in gear progression - as long as there are options for gear, even in how you gem - that would not really be the case.
I'm also kind of confused about saying the world is not linear but the narrative is. In talking about the story, well yes - the overall story is going to be linear - it's a static story, told time and time again. Most games are going to have that. I suppose when I think of the world, I tend to think of the story - and with the one being, well then the other is as well. Unless you mean something else by the world.
To an extent, it mainly goes to what you were saying about people viewing things in different ways (I'm a big proponent of the fact that people spend more time arguing on the forums because of a term that holds different meaning to them than what they actually think they are arguing about - if we do not have common terms or at least agreed upon terms for a particular conversation, then it tends to end up being rather pointless).
I think some of us use the term linear to represent some part of the game being static, rather than the game itself actually being linear.
I could make five Dwarf Warriors...and they could all experience different paths and adventures on their way to the level cap. They could all end up geared differently. No doubt, they might experience the odd bottleneck here and there where the paths cross - but then they would once again return to their varied paths.
My issue would be - that I could make five hundred Dwarf Warriors and have them all experience the exact same thing and end up geared the exact same way...
...so more often than not, it is not the case that a game is actually linear - but rather - it is static and the linear path exists.
Having recently played WoW (and having put it down again) I feel like I can comment on WoW's linearity.
Questing (up to max level) - One quest leads to the next quest or quest area (usually). However, there's also the option to pick up quests that take you to different areas. You can pick a new location, head there and continue on your journey. The player gets to choose whether or not to follow a single quest line to the end or whether or not to jump about and explore the available options. That's what being more than 5 years old gets you. It's not very linear at all.
Question (at max level) - you don't really quest at max level. If you do, you have fewer max level questing options. Usually what you'd do is follow a progression path of dungeons and raids or battlegrounds and arenas. It's pretty linear.
Character Progression (up through max level) - You actually have three choices per character how you want to progress your character's skills. You also get the option to progress along two different paths for your character, switching back and forth as you feel like it. It's not very linear at all.
Character Progression (at max level) - You have about three choices. PvP purples through battlegrounds, PvP purples through arenas, PvE purples through raiding or PvE purples through heroic dungeons. Each of those paths is very linear as there's really only one set of 'best' gear per path. A portion of each of the paths overlap too. You'll do battlegrounds before hitting arenas, and you'll do heroic instances before hitting raids. So there are some choices, but not many. It's very linear.
Crafting - is linear. You pick a profession and follow a path. There are even guides to give you the 'best' path. There are very few actual choices.
So for WoW at least, leveling is not linear (other than crafting). Once you are at max level, the game becomes very linear.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I honestly don't know why people say the game is linear, once I got the beta invite I was expect Final Fantasy 13. I was so surprised when the game I got to play wasn't anything like that. It was so open and exploring was nice and it just felt very non linear to me except in storyline as far as places you have to go. You even got to make choices of to kill or not to kill in the story and that itself even takes away from any lineararity that there may be for me personally. I was extremely surprised that I hear any bad things about the game after playing it because it actually has blown me away more than any MMO in the past 10 years. This game will be a major success because it has so much content right at launch and will always have more content added.
Sorry for all the snippage, but your post is there if somebody wants to read the unabridged version: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4563669#4563669
Although I was asking him specificially to elaborate on what he meant, I did want to go ahead and reply to this as well. I have played WoW off and on since beta through about a week after I bought Cataclysm.
I wanted to address the items you found to be linear.
@Max Level - Questing: Upon reaching the level cap, I would often find myself roaming around and doing low-level quests that I had not done on my path to the various level caps. But as to what you said about it being linear because you follow four paths...well, if there are four paths to follow - it's not really linear is it? There's still that choice - and heck - there are other choices as well, because there are other things to do outside of dungeons, raiding, battlegrounds, and arena when level capped.
@Max Level - Character Progression: Again here, you present us with four choices - yet call it linear. Well, no - as you are talking about them, you call each linear - you do not call it overall linear character progression until the end. But still, if you have four (actually more) gear paths - you have choice, so it is not really linear in of itself. Yes, the items themselves may follow a linear progression in most situations - but given the ways in which you can change the stats of said gear - more choices open up.
@Crafting: Once again, you acknowledge there are choices - sure, not more than you can shake a stick at - but there are choices all the same. No doubt there are paths that will allow you to max crafting the fastest or perhaps the cheapest; but even there again - there is some chocie.
It's not a case of trying to argue with you here over whether WoW is linear or not, different people are going to see it differently - it should not be a case of trying to convince somebody else that they are wrong (that rarely works, lol). It is more a case of exploring how different people might see things, understanding how they might see them differently, and deciding whether your own views on such a thing will change or not.
Generally speaking, I cannot really think of too many games that are what I would consider linear. Static yes, subject to being linear - most definitely, but simply to call them linear - I have a hard time with that.
No doubt though, there are some games out there that I find to be very linear...
...but I often wonder if people are not using the term linear when they are really thinking about something else.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
You know what you sound like don't you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AwXKJoKJz4&ob=av2n
People don't want SWTOR to be linear because they're still longing for a proper replacement for SWG.
Why all the hate for linear? go play Aion and you will see why all the hate for linear!
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
This makes absoultely zero sense, its like saying why all the hate fo0r action movies or sandbox mmos? just go watch this 1 action movie or play this 1 sandbox lololllolol.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Because MMORPGs were not originally about following a linear path from level 1 to X, it was about "living" in a virtual world where, within reason, you had the freedom to go wherever you want and do whatever you feel like.
My gaming blog
Cue Janis: "Freedom's just another word for damn this grind is dull...."
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I wish it were, though. I'd love it if it had the sort of "endgame" where I could be the Jarl of my own village, to customize my own way, and that sort of thing. Or at least build a farm or something.
Then again, I'm a real sandbox fan. I'll probably try TOR, hopefully enjoy it as much as Mass Effect or Dragon Age, but I have no intention of playing it past the first free month.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Although I was asking him specificially to elaborate on what he meant, I did want to go ahead and reply to this as well. I have played WoW off and on since beta through about a week after I bought Cataclysm.
I wanted to address the items you found to be linear.
@Max Level - Questing: Upon reaching the level cap, I would often find myself roaming around and doing low-level quests that I had not done on my path to the various level caps. But as to what you said about it being linear because you follow four paths...well, if there are four paths to follow - it's not really linear is it? There's still that choice - and heck - there are other choices as well, because there are other things to do outside of dungeons, raiding, battlegrounds, and arena when level capped.
@Max Level - Character Progression: Again here, you present us with four choices - yet call it linear. Well, no - as you are talking about them, you call each linear - you do not call it overall linear character progression until the end. But still, if you have four (actually more) gear paths - you have choice, so it is not really linear in of itself. Yes, the items themselves may follow a linear progression in most situations - but given the ways in which you can change the stats of said gear - more choices open up.
@Crafting: Once again, you acknowledge there are choices - sure, not more than you can shake a stick at - but there are choices all the same. No doubt there are paths that will allow you to max crafting the fastest or perhaps the cheapest; but even there again - there is some chocie.
It's not a case of trying to argue with you here over whether WoW is linear or not, different people are going to see it differently - it should not be a case of trying to convince somebody else that they are wrong (that rarely works, lol). It is more a case of exploring how different people might see things, understanding how they might see them differently, and deciding whether your own views on such a thing will change or not.
Generally speaking, I cannot really think of too many games that are what I would consider linear. Static yes, subject to being linear - most definitely, but simply to call them linear - I have a hard time with that.
No doubt though, there are some games out there that I find to be very linear...
...but I often wonder if people are not using the term linear when they are really thinking about something else.
It's more of a scale of Linearity. MMORPG cannot exist with a totally linear nature the same way that a game like Half Life(2) does. It just wouldn't work. A better description for mmorpg would be 'more linear' or 'less linear'. I supposed it's entirely possible to have a completely nonlinear mmorpg experience, while it's not possible to have a completely linear mmorpg experience.
Crafting has choices, but they don't matter. You will always end up at the same place. You will always get the same recipes and you will always make a certain number of certain things (with very few exceptions). It is an incredibly linear experience. Even at end game there is always one good recipe to get at whatever level your crafting skill is or at whatever stage of end game progression you are in. It is the most linear experience I think you'll find in an mmorpg, even if it isn't perfectly linear.
The other experiences you'll find in WoW are less linear than that, but some things are still a very linear experience. There's one best set of gear to acquire at max level for your class and talents...until the next raid releases and then there's exactly one more set of gear. Ditto for the PvP path as well. There's exactly one best set of gear for your class and talents. The player's experience goes from nonlinear (planar?) to linear. I supposed though that the experience is more repetitive than linear.
None of that means WoW is a linear game. There are just some very linear experiences in the game. Overall the game is full of choices to make and paths to follow. I think people see what they want to see though...none of the nonlinear content in WoW matters because linear content exists if you believe WoW to be a linear game.
None^2 of this really explains why some people equate linear to bad. Half Life 2 is as linear as you can get and I enjoyed the cr@p out of that game. Fallout 3 was pretty nonlinear and I enjoyed the cr@p out of that game too.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I really wish we could +1 posts, heh. Yeah, I know that things would get abused with folks +1/-1 other folks; but I really think what you said here deserves a +1.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Thank you. Sometimes the caffeine works. Most of the time it convinces me that random nonsense is fact.
** edit **
It also, for some reason, convinces me that I should tell people the random nonsense.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I dont know about the guy you quoted, but if I had a chance to get monthly updates to my ME games, you can bet I would. The ME series is my favorite of all time.
The only DLC I have yet to purchase for 360 is the comic, as I already have it on my PS3 copy of ME2. On 360, you can simply import saves to Me2 from ME1. I would of much preferred to of been paying a monthly fee, and having DLC coming out faster.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Linear is not a genre like "action" or "sandbox", linear is a flaw.
edit: forgot to add lololllololol
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Really quick, because its late here where I am and someone else already covered most of what I would answer.
Linear as a word has as many meanings as a tree has leaves, but when I am talking about linearity I tend to distinguish between
a. problems
b. choices
If I present you with this dillema:
"Do you want a punch in the face or 1000 dollars?"
This is a problem, not a choice. The problem can be solved to get the maximal benefit. It has a set unambiguous solution. Its linear.
If I say (given that you like apples and oranges equally):
"Do you want an apple or an orange?"
This is a choice, not a problem. It does not have a solution, the outcome is an actual choice, you might weight your craving for sweet or sour but either pick is not "better" than the other.
The same applies to WoW-esque leveling. Yes you can "decide" to equip a dagger with a shield as an Arms Warrior, but you are consciously playing the game wrong. In WoW everything is a problem to be solved. Be it talents, gemming or loot.
Keep in mind I am only talking about the game-design here, not the user-generated content like it often happens on RP servers, thats a completely different discussion.
Also narrative =/= story. Narrative is the presentation of events (story). A linear narrative has no choice in its presentation. A non-linear narrative has choice in its presentation. I can create a narrative in a game that has completely no dialogue or let the player create the narrative himself and create his own story in the process.
WoWs narrative is entirely linear, SW:TORs narrative is less linear (although badly implemented as well)
The gaming industry just hasn't defined its terms yet, its borrowing a lot from other media like TV and Movies but a lot of those terms do not fully apply and nobody really thinks about these terms.
Forums are the place where terms get solidified, thats what we are here for.