Forums are the place where terms get solidified, thats what we are here for.
Well, the term "sandbox" has been around for a very long time, and it's still difficult to find any two people who agree entirely on what the term means. Even here, on the "Home of the Sandbox" forums.
So, is "let the users define it" working? Or is it just letting people split ever-finer hairs?
Fifteen years of MMO Forum Wars has left non-descrete terms like "hardcore" and "casual" still undefined. Everyone kinda-sorta knows what those terms mean; it's not until you compare two individual's definitions that you notice they're remarkably dissimilar. Reification is the basis of a lot of MMO arguments--we think we're discussing using the same concepts, but we aren't.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Forums are the place where terms get solidified, thats what we are here for.
Well, the term "sandbox" has been around for a very long time, and it's still difficult to find any two people who agree entirely on what the term means. Even here, on the "Home of the Sandbox" forums.
So, is "let the users define it" working? Or is it just letting people split ever-finer hairs?
Fifteen years of MMO Forum Wars has left non-descrete terms like "hardcore" and "casual" still undefined. Everyone kinda-sorta knows what those terms mean; it's not until you compare two individual's definitions that you notice they're remarkably dissimilar. Reification is the basis of a lot of MMO arguments--we think we're discussing using the same concepts, but we aren't.
15 years is a very short time in language. People expect results to be achieved in their lifetime but thats not how it works.
Forums are the place where terms get solidified, thats what we are here for.
Well, the term "sandbox" has been around for a very long time, and it's still difficult to find any two people who agree entirely on what the term means. Even here, on the "Home of the Sandbox" forums.
So, is "let the users define it" working? Or is it just letting people split ever-finer hairs?
Fifteen years of MMO Forum Wars has left non-descrete terms like "hardcore" and "casual" still undefined. Everyone kinda-sorta knows what those terms mean; it's not until you compare two individual's definitions that you notice they're remarkably dissimilar. Reification is the basis of a lot of MMO arguments--we think we're discussing using the same concepts, but we aren't.
Sandbox and themepark/linear terms are relative and not absolute. Every single MMORPG has some sandbox elements and some linear/themepark elements and hence why it is difficult to agree entirely what the terms mean.
Someone else said that games are either less linear or more linear and that is probably the best way to describe things. WAR/WOW = more linear and UO/Eve = less linear.
SW:TOR is definetely more linear and for me this is simply not a fulfilling MMORPG experience. If I want linear games I play single or multiplayer games, not MMORPGs. What would be the point? You can't have a massive amounts of people partaking in linear gameplayer unless you parrarelise it and in the case of SW:TOR it is pararell to such extent that you have single player linear paths. For me that is a single player game and I would never pay a sub fee for that.
It's doomed because the only sucessful MMO's in the market are sandbox. Linear means it's narrow and has an end where everyone gets bored and has nothing to do and the game ends up in the trash and people wait for the next linear repetitive, false promise MMO to come out.
Someone says there's too many sandbox MMO out there and i can only think of 2 of them and they have been the most succesful long lasting MMO ever made, i'm thinking about WoW and EVE. The reason people like these games is because no matter how much money you invest in it you will always have something to do and this is why they have been sucessful and last way longer than all the rest.
There is a infestation of linear f2p trashbin MMO's out there that just shattered the MMO community, it's like they are playing ping pong with people that never get satisfied and they know it and keep making all these half-assed MMO and laugh at you.
Star wars sandbox game, think about it. It would still be popular in 10-15 years from now.
It's doomed because the only sucessful MMO's in the market are sandbox. Linear means it's narrow and has an end where everyone gets bored and has nothing to do and the game ends up in the trash and people wait for the next linear repetitive, false promise MMO to come out.
Someone says there's too many sandbox MMO out there and i can only think of 2 of them and they have been the most succesful long lasting MMO ever made, i'm thinking about WoW and EVE. The reason people like these games is because no matter how much money you invest in it you will always have something to do and this is why they have been sucessful and last way longer than all the rest.
There is a infestation of linear f2p trashbin MMO's out there that just shattered the MMO community, it's like they are playing ping pong with people that never get satisfied and they know it and keep making all these half-assed MMO and laugh at you.
Star wars sandbox game, think about it. It would still be popular in 10-15 years from now.
I'm done, don't care if you don't understand.
Sandboxes are the top games? Wow is a sandbox?
Someone help me out here, as responding to this would net me a 3 day vacation for sure. Simply mind boggling.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Originally posted by Moaky07 Originally posted by Omb1 It's doomed because the only sucessful MMO's in the market are sandbox. Linear means it's narrow and has an end where everyone gets bored and has nothing to do and the game ends up in the trash and people wait for the next linear repetitive, false promise MMO to come out. Someone says there's too many sandbox MMO out there and i can only think of 2 of them and they have been the most succesful long lasting MMO ever made, i'm thinking about WoW and EVE. The reason people like these games is because no matter how much money you invest in it you will always have something to do and this is why they have been sucessful and last way longer than all the rest. There is a infestation of linear f2p trashbin MMO's out there that just shattered the MMO community, it's like they are playing ping pong with people that never get satisfied and they know it and keep making all these half-assed MMO and laugh at you. Star wars sandbox game, think about it. It would still be popular in 10-15 years from now. I'm done, don't care if you don't understand.
Sandboxes are the top games? Wow is a sandbox?
Someone help me out here, as responding to this would net me a 3 day vacation for sure. Simply mind boggling.
Maybe they meant 'nonlinear'?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Wow means world of warcraft. A sandbox mmo is a type of mmo, it means you can go anywhere, do anything, and kill everything when you want.
A Sandbox nonMMO game is like GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Saints row, and any game where its an open world.
A linear MMO game means no choices. You HAVE to do quest A before anything else. In Wow you don't have too, but it helps to do quest A. Basicly is not an RPG if its linear. Like GTA, its a linear story in a sandbox world.
People are just looking for change. No "sandbox" has been truely successful in the mmo market. The only one ever worth it to me was UO and played it for lots of years, heck i still play private servers here and there. People scream sandbox, yet there are many out and all the people who scream sandbox don't play the ones that exist.
Attention sandbox folks, show the market that you want a sandbox....stop screaming it , pay and play the sandboxes that exist. Ever occur to you that if you get 2 million people playing a sandbox that companies will take notice and make sandbox games. Words are nothing. Lots of people want to say that's what everyone wants, yet sandbox mmo's always fail, back up your words with your cash or stop already. No one is hearing you.
Disclaimer: I'm an advocate for sandboxes, and yes I buy everyone of them that comes out in hopes that all the people screaming for a sandbox will actually play them......but they never do. Seem there is a quite vocal minority is all.
Wow means world of warcraft. A sandbox mmo is a type of mmo, it means you can go anywhere, do anything, and kill everything when you want.
A Sandbox nonMMO game is like GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Saints row, and any game where its an open world.
A linear MMO game means no choices. You HAVE to do quest A before anything else. In Wow you don't have too, but it helps to do quest A. Basicly is not an RPG if its linear. Like GTA, its a linear story in a sandbox world.
Open World means a big open area, where you can basically go anywhere. There isnt a mission hub ala DDO. It isnt exclusive to sandbox games.
WoW is a themepark, which basically plays like a single player so called "sandbox" RDR, GTA, ES etc. These games are semi linear, as you follow a directed path if you want to follow the content thru. PVE content is the main course. There can be sidetracks, but they are not intended to replace the path.
MMO sandboxes are a whole nother realm. They typically include FFA PVP, the ability to affect the game world, and in some instances offer fully non combat classes. The crafter directed loot system is often found in them. There is nothing linear to follow, as the content is dictated by the players, and PVE content is normally scarce.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Wow means world of warcraft. A sandbox mmo is a type of mmo, it means you can go anywhere, do anything, and kill everything when you want.
A Sandbox nonMMO game is like GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Saints row, and any game where its an open world.
A linear MMO game means no choices. You HAVE to do quest A before anything else. In Wow you don't have too, but it helps to do quest A. Basicly is not an RPG if its linear. Like GTA, its a linear story in a sandbox world.
Open World means a big open area, where you can basically go anywhere. There isnt a mission hub ala DDO. It isnt exclusive to sandbox games.
WoW is a themepark, which basically plays like a single player so called "sandbox" RDR, GTA, ES etc. These games are semi linear, as you follow a directed path if you want to follow the content thru. PVE content is the main course. There can be sidetracks, but they are not intended to replace the path.
MMO sandboxes are a whole nother realm. They typically include FFA PVP, the ability to affect the game world, and in some instances offer fully non combat classes. The crafter directed loot system is often found in them. There is nothing linear to follow, as the content is dictated by the players, and PVE content is normally scarce.
Yeah, not always it feature FFA PVP and not always PvE is scarce.
Last years we havent saw much sandboxes apart of very niche indie products, and they usually feature those things you mentioned
Sandbox does not have to = ffa pvp, it does not even have to have pvp at all.
Hate for linear? I don't hate linear itself. I just don't enjoy it. Rarely I play linear games, cause they bore me to tears even if they are done nice quality wise. Scripted linear games like ME 2, or single player in CoD, BF3 are soooooo boring. Ok they are flashy, filmlike, etc but that does not work on me tbh - still boring.
Well I don't hate linear mmorpg's 'per se'. I hate that there is no non-linear ones, apart of very old or half-assed indie ones.
I hate this situation and some of this anger are unwillingly (more or less) streamed towards linear games
UO that on official server is so changed that it scarely resemble 'old UO' ? Not to mention that it has 14 y old, and it is just too much.
DFO or MO which are feature-less FFA PVP gank-fests?
Sorry SWG is closing, not to mention it was not really sandbox anymore after what SOE did to this game...
Only decent is EVE and it is doing overally very good for years, but you have to agree that playing a spaceship is not very attractive to a lot of folks.
So tell me - what should I play?
Tale in the desert?
Sorry there are just no viable sandboxes to play atm. All are either borked, old, gankfests or very very specific and niche even for sandbox "standards"
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There were no second UO or SWG simply because no company invested enough money into making next game like that, with lot of features and wellthrough out.
No decently funded 'big' sandbox = no big amount of player playing sandboxes.
No lot of players playing sandboxes = no big funding for sandbox title.
Closed circle that won't change, unless some investor will be crazy enough to risk lot of money to make "big" sandbox. Which might not happen anytime soon.
Get used to 'whining' on forums then, It won't stop.
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EDIT: One more thing. Themepark does NOT have to be totally linear as well. There is space between 'total-anarchy-like freedom' and 'totally-linear' you know....
I completely agree with everything you said. My point being, no big developer with the cash to make a quality sandbox, is going to do so unless they see success in the market. Yes UO is horrid now, private servers(which are legal), such as defiance are a better age of UO in my opinion are ver populated. I tried EVE also, being a spaceship, not fun. Yet if EVE had 2 million subscribers, that "big money" developer would take notice and improve upon the sandbox market. Until then, sanbox is a dead market, unfortunately.
You have to remember alot of ppl on these forums want a "hardcore" sandbox mmorpg. But looking at recent attempts at sandbox games and how uderly bad they failed i can not say im sad that they are sticking with a standard model for Swtor.
People just think they know better then the multi million dollar companys.
And judging by how many linear themeparks have fallen flat on their collective faces over the past couple of years we do know better.
The reason that recent sandboxes have failed is because they have been underfunded and underdeveloped.
Comments
Well, the term "sandbox" has been around for a very long time, and it's still difficult to find any two people who agree entirely on what the term means. Even here, on the "Home of the Sandbox" forums.
So, is "let the users define it" working? Or is it just letting people split ever-finer hairs?
Fifteen years of MMO Forum Wars has left non-descrete terms like "hardcore" and "casual" still undefined. Everyone kinda-sorta knows what those terms mean; it's not until you compare two individual's definitions that you notice they're remarkably dissimilar. Reification is the basis of a lot of MMO arguments--we think we're discussing using the same concepts, but we aren't.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
15 years is a very short time in language. People expect results to be achieved in their lifetime but thats not how it works.
Sandbox and themepark/linear terms are relative and not absolute. Every single MMORPG has some sandbox elements and some linear/themepark elements and hence why it is difficult to agree entirely what the terms mean.
Someone else said that games are either less linear or more linear and that is probably the best way to describe things. WAR/WOW = more linear and UO/Eve = less linear.
SW:TOR is definetely more linear and for me this is simply not a fulfilling MMORPG experience. If I want linear games I play single or multiplayer games, not MMORPGs. What would be the point? You can't have a massive amounts of people partaking in linear gameplayer unless you parrarelise it and in the case of SW:TOR it is pararell to such extent that you have single player linear paths. For me that is a single player game and I would never pay a sub fee for that.
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It's doomed because the only sucessful MMO's in the market are sandbox. Linear means it's narrow and has an end where everyone gets bored and has nothing to do and the game ends up in the trash and people wait for the next linear repetitive, false promise MMO to come out.
Someone says there's too many sandbox MMO out there and i can only think of 2 of them and they have been the most succesful long lasting MMO ever made, i'm thinking about WoW and EVE. The reason people like these games is because no matter how much money you invest in it you will always have something to do and this is why they have been sucessful and last way longer than all the rest.
There is a infestation of linear f2p trashbin MMO's out there that just shattered the MMO community, it's like they are playing ping pong with people that never get satisfied and they know it and keep making all these half-assed MMO and laugh at you.
Star wars sandbox game, think about it. It would still be popular in 10-15 years from now.
I'm done, don't care if you don't understand.
Sandboxes are the top games? Wow is a sandbox?
Someone help me out here, as responding to this would net me a 3 day vacation for sure. Simply mind boggling.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Sandboxes are the top games? Wow is a sandbox?
Someone help me out here, as responding to this would net me a 3 day vacation for sure. Simply mind boggling.
Maybe they meant 'nonlinear'?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Wow means world of warcraft. A sandbox mmo is a type of mmo, it means you can go anywhere, do anything, and kill everything when you want.
A Sandbox nonMMO game is like GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Saints row, and any game where its an open world.
A linear MMO game means no choices. You HAVE to do quest A before anything else. In Wow you don't have too, but it helps to do quest A. Basicly is not an RPG if its linear. Like GTA, its a linear story in a sandbox world.
P.S. Sandbox games are top because they are most popular to the players
People are just looking for change. No "sandbox" has been truely successful in the mmo market. The only one ever worth it to me was UO and played it for lots of years, heck i still play private servers here and there. People scream sandbox, yet there are many out and all the people who scream sandbox don't play the ones that exist.
Attention sandbox folks, show the market that you want a sandbox....stop screaming it , pay and play the sandboxes that exist. Ever occur to you that if you get 2 million people playing a sandbox that companies will take notice and make sandbox games. Words are nothing. Lots of people want to say that's what everyone wants, yet sandbox mmo's always fail, back up your words with your cash or stop already. No one is hearing you.
Disclaimer: I'm an advocate for sandboxes, and yes I buy everyone of them that comes out in hopes that all the people screaming for a sandbox will actually play them......but they never do. Seem there is a quite vocal minority is all.
Open World means a big open area, where you can basically go anywhere. There isnt a mission hub ala DDO. It isnt exclusive to sandbox games.
WoW is a themepark, which basically plays like a single player so called "sandbox" RDR, GTA, ES etc. These games are semi linear, as you follow a directed path if you want to follow the content thru. PVE content is the main course. There can be sidetracks, but they are not intended to replace the path.
MMO sandboxes are a whole nother realm. They typically include FFA PVP, the ability to affect the game world, and in some instances offer fully non combat classes. The crafter directed loot system is often found in them. There is nothing linear to follow, as the content is dictated by the players, and PVE content is normally scarce.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Yeah, not always it feature FFA PVP and not always PvE is scarce.
Last years we havent saw much sandboxes apart of very niche indie products, and they usually feature those things you mentioned
Sandbox does not have to = ffa pvp, it does not even have to have pvp at all.
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@OP
Hate for linear? I don't hate linear itself. I just don't enjoy it. Rarely I play linear games, cause they bore me to tears even if they are done nice quality wise. Scripted linear games like ME 2, or single player in CoD, BF3 are soooooo boring. Ok they are flashy, filmlike, etc but that does not work on me tbh - still boring.
Well I don't hate linear mmorpg's 'per se'. I hate that there is no non-linear ones, apart of very old or half-assed indie ones.
I hate this situation and some of this anger are unwillingly (more or less) streamed towards linear games
@face30
Play existing ones? Which one?
UO that on official server is so changed that it scarely resemble 'old UO' ? Not to mention that it has 14 y old, and it is just too much.
DFO or MO which are feature-less FFA PVP gank-fests?
Sorry SWG is closing, not to mention it was not really sandbox anymore after what SOE did to this game...
Only decent is EVE and it is doing overally very good for years, but you have to agree that playing a spaceship is not very attractive to a lot of folks.
So tell me - what should I play?
Tale in the desert?
Sorry there are just no viable sandboxes to play atm. All are either borked, old, gankfests or very very specific and niche even for sandbox "standards"
-----
There were no second UO or SWG simply because no company invested enough money into making next game like that, with lot of features and wellthrough out.
No decently funded 'big' sandbox = no big amount of player playing sandboxes.
No lot of players playing sandboxes = no big funding for sandbox title.
Closed circle that won't change, unless some investor will be crazy enough to risk lot of money to make "big" sandbox. Which might not happen anytime soon.
Get used to 'whining' on forums then, It won't stop.
-------------------
EDIT: One more thing. Themepark does NOT have to be totally linear as well. There is space between 'total-anarchy-like freedom' and 'totally-linear' you know....
@Fenistil
I completely agree with everything you said. My point being, no big developer with the cash to make a quality sandbox, is going to do so unless they see success in the market. Yes UO is horrid now, private servers(which are legal), such as defiance are a better age of UO in my opinion are ver populated. I tried EVE also, being a spaceship, not fun. Yet if EVE had 2 million subscribers, that "big money" developer would take notice and improve upon the sandbox market. Until then, sanbox is a dead market, unfortunately.
And judging by how many linear themeparks have fallen flat on their collective faces over the past couple of years we do know better.
The reason that recent sandboxes have failed is because they have been underfunded and underdeveloped.