I guess I won't be playing this hack and slash mmo.
In the other thread you said this wasn't an MMORPG, it was an action MMO with RPG elements. We asked you then what you meant but you didn't reply.
If you ask 100 people what it means to be an MMORPG, you'll get 100 different answers.
We don't even know what you read in this thread that prompted your post.
We really believe that through things like the Personal Story, GW2 is trying to put the RPG back in MMORPG.
Why don't you tell us what your concerns are?
Table top RPGs
If you are claiming to be an MMORPG, please show me a game based on the rules set forth by the genre.
If you're only borrowing some elements but the way you play the game is completely different, why not sell the game under a different genre?
The dice should determine everything. Statistical modifiers should tip the dice in your favor. This is what an RPG is about. Leveing up has been deconstruced to the point is has become a gimmick. It's only giving you the illusion that you are actually developing your character. The reality is; you're just strolling through the feeble content they placed in the game to keep you occupied for a few months.
Don't bring up the semantics behind the definition of every word in RPG. Tabletop RPG's are the ORIGINAL and you used a dice to determine your actions.
There are plenty of tabletop RPGs that involve no dices or don't emphasize progression (e.g.with players assuming new characters for each scenario). That doesn't make them any less of role-playing game. That doesn't make GW2 any less of MMORPG.
I think a lot of you are missing the point of how GW2 will be played. It's a skill rather then gear based game.
What this means is you won't be grinding for gear at all, the endgame is pvp only. There's no monthly sub so what you'll be doing is logging in to pvp only. Just like playing a sport, say football or whatever, the more you play the better you'll be at it. That's your progression.
No raids, no gear. If you want to stand out, don't be bad.
Don't bring up the semantics behind the definition of every word in RPG. Tabletop RPG's are the ORIGINAL and you used a dice to determine your actions.
No, the dice determine whether your choices succed or fail, and to what degree. Your choices are what determines everything (and the choices of the DM). The dice are just one of several possible mechanics to facilitate that. The most popular, no doubt, but not the only one.
Statistics still influence a lot of what happens in GW2, and the rest is determined by what you chose to do with your character within the frame of options layed out to you. That is exactly what an RPG is.
Well I play TF2 "regularly" - I take 30min to an hour a day to let off some steam and have fun with my friends. Ocassionally I spend a weekend afternoon or two loosing myself in the game. I suspect GW2 will fill this niche of mine in the long run and since it offers quite a bit more content I might loose a few more afternoons to it than I do to TF2.
That being said, I'm thankful for it . I don't need a game that will occupy 90% of my otherwise empty and pointless life. I want a game that is fun, well made and relaxing and which I can play with my friends or just wander around and hang out with strangers... and which I can leave feeling satisfied rather than vaguely guilty that I'm not "progressing" (hah!) enough. So far, GW2's "endgame" looks just perfect to me.
As for the word "endgame" the point is that in GW2 the "endgame" begins at level 1. Let me explain. If WoW was made according to this principle you'd be raiding from level 1, without having to go through the whole quest-leveling process first. Conversely, you'd have single player quest lines going on even after you achieve max level - they would be tiered just like raids. The thing is that there is so much more you can do in GW2 endgame besides raiding and PvP ing, and that is because ANet is building the game on the premise that the whole game is "endgame."
Once you reach maximum level your way of playing won't magically transform into something completely different. You'll just keep on doing whatever you enjoyed doing during leveling. It's just you'll be lvl 80 and you'll be advancing in some other ways like collecting titles, traits and (mostly cosmetic) gear.
You just pointed out the flaw of maxed-level-geared . indeed , in WoW , once you hit max you get way extremly better gear than ur prev levelling gear . That's what ( imo ) the developers of gw2 (ANet) try to avoid, which is good .
But imagine this, after somene hit 80 with all those activities offered, do you think all these activities going to motivate enough players to regularly get to their computer when the offers are titles and costumes?
We can argue my question over and over , but the point is : there will be a lot of activities but the reward is only title and cosmetic . ( and probz better gear which everyone can get em easily)
Originally posted by wrathzilla
Alright, other than the arguments "the whole game is endgame" lets focus on just level 80 content.
There is 1 dungeon every 10 levels starting at level 35, and 8 dungeons total at release.
That means, that at level 80 you will have three dungeons whose story mode (AKA You're supposed to be able to solo it, but you'll have NPCs helping you) STARTS at level 80.
Not only that, but they've stated that the ENTIRE peninsula of Orr is level 80 (which is probably 3-4 entire zones).
PvP gear (earned for level 80) will be earned in "tiers", where the more "Valor" you spend the better looking gear you get.
For example, if you've ever played Castle Wars in Runescape, the decorative armours look better and better as you get higher in the tiers, but cost more tickets (50-150-250-500-1500) per tier.
Many people seem to forget, that for those that DON'T have the best gear and play people who do, it ruins the experience. For example, in WoW these days if you try to get into PvP at level 85, you'll die over and over again because you dont have full Relentless BiS gear, and for many thats disheartening.
I guess my question to you is: Why do you have to be "shackled" to a game?
Your goal would be to get the God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals title, or get that Epic looking set that somebody was wearing when they roflstomped you in 5v5 last week. The deal maker for me is that you get a choice in this game. I could run dungeons for dungeon gear, or PvP, and if i was wearing my tier 5 PvP gear and I wanted to run Zhaitain's Lair in explorable mode with my guild, then i could.
TL:DR: This game is Skyrim Online, in that those goals your looking for you make yourself, and you aren't forced to do a certain thing, to want your BiS or to stick to one type of play, you can do whatever takes your fancy.
I dislike the current WoW with the same reason u just said ; about ' ppl with awesum gear tend to ruin others' experience' , and I see GW2 as a game that challenge WoW's gear ideology . plus + It's also been admitted that the gear progression in WoW is too extreme (once u hit 85).
but the gear philosophy isnt wrong itself: Some ppl still see cosmetic items and achievement as secondary reward, yes this line is subjective , but at some point it is what draws online players to play the game ; in order to be better ..
I am not concerned with the content of gw2 , but the reward they offer . Maybe the word 'shackle' is a bit negative , but that is the point of evry online game.
I am just concerned whether 'hardcore players' have a spot in this 'casual-feelings' game ? You can accuse me for being 'elitist' , but i believe everyone desserve to have a place and at certain level be satisfied about it.
Alright, other than the arguments "the whole game is endgame" lets focus on just level 80 content.
Level 80 content in the usual sense, that is, the only thing you do at level 80, doesn't exist in GW2.
Level 80 is merely the point where your character stops leveling up and you can access every bit of content the game offers, which includes everything from where you began leveling to where you can go at level 80. Content below level 80 does not become irrelevant, which seems to be the thing people have a hard time wrapping their heads around.
If you are claiming to be an MMORPG, please show me a game based on the rules set forth by the genre.
If you're only borrowing some elements but the way you play the game is completely different, why not sell the game under a different genre?
The dice should determine everything. Statistical modifiers should tip the dice in your favor. This is what an RPG is about. Leveing up has been deconstruced to the point is has become a gimmick. It's only giving you the illusion that you are actually developing your character. The reality is; you're just strolling through the feeble content they placed in the game to keep you occupied for a few months.
Don't bring up the semantics behind the definition of every word in RPG. Tabletop RPG's are the ORIGINAL and you used a dice to determine your actions.
We're all gonna be thrilled playing a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying game by the rules set forth by WotC, until some 14 year old wizards start spamming Timestop ....
Tabletop rpg's are round based, which does not go well with the online nature of MMORPG's, server wide effects that are fine at the table are not going to work out well
Roleplaying is not defined by, nor confined to, throwing dice and character development is not expressed by gaining levels. If you want DnD in online format, Neverwinter Nights is still available at GOG, I think, and last time I checked NWVault was still online.
I am not concerned with the content of gw2 , but the reward they offer . Maybe the word 'shackle' is a bit negative , but that is the point of evry online game.
I am just concerned whether 'hardcore players' have a spot in this 'casual-feelings' game ? You can accuse me for being 'elitist' , but i believe everyone desserve to have a place and at certain level be satisfied about it.
Shackling the player is by no means point of every online game - it's expectation some players (including you) have, but it doesn't mean that every game should cater to that expectation. GW2 is made for players who don't want to be shackled (including me).
I think there's no place in GW2 for players who absolutely must be shackled to the game, otherwise they don't enjoy it - but I think they are only subgroup of hardcore players. Furthermore, I don't believe in "everyone should have their place in every game" philosophy. It doesn't work in market of opposing interests, and in such market it's more beneficial to create great game for one group than average for everyone.
Don't bring up the semantics behind the definition of every word in RPG. Tabletop RPG's are the ORIGINAL and you used a dice to determine your actions.
No, the dice determine whether your choices succed or fail, and to what degree. Your choices are what determines everything (and the choices of the DM). The dice are just one of several possible mechanics to facilitate that. The most popular, no doubt, but not the only one.
Statistics still influence a lot of what happens in GW2, and the rest is determined by what you chose to do with your character within the frame of options layed out to you. That is exactly what an RPG is.
I meant to say just that. Your actions success determined by the dice roll. Attacking, defending, evading, you know the rest.
I highly doubt I will be able to allign myself to a certain faction. In fact, I highly doubt ANY of the actions I act upon; will change the outcome of ANYTHING that happens to my character.
Star Wars would be a far better RPG if were going to trivialize RPGs. Not that it's a bad game. I think choosing to be good, neutral, evil is fun, but the gameplay to is not very good. It's fun to watch though.
If you are claiming to be an MMORPG, please show me a game based on the rules set forth by the genre.
If you're only borrowing some elements but the way you play the game is completely different, why not sell the game under a different genre?
The dice should determine everything. Statistical modifiers should tip the dice in your favor. This is what an RPG is about. Leveing up has been deconstruced to the point is has become a gimmick. It's only giving you the illusion that you are actually developing your character. The reality is; you're just strolling through the feeble content they placed in the game to keep you occupied for a few months.
Don't bring up the semantics behind the definition of every word in RPG. Tabletop RPG's are the ORIGINAL and you used a dice to determine your actions.
We're all gonna be thrilled playing a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying game by the rules set forth by WotC, until some 14 year old wizards start spamming Timestop ....
Tabletop rpg's are round based, which does not go well with the online nature of MMORPG's, server wide effects that are fine at the table are not going to work out well
Roleplaying is not defined by, nor confined to, throwing dice and character development is not expressed by gaining levels. If you want DnD in online format, Neverwinter Nights is still available at GOG, I think, and last time I checked NWVault was still online.
Did I not suggest they sell this game under a different genre? Hack and Slash MMO. or AMMO or what every fancy title they can come up with.
My point is : although destroying the"raid grinding" concept is indeed revolutianry and yes, positive , players still need a certain ' goal' in mind when playing online game .. Right now in my Brainwashed--moar-than-5-years-of-WoW mind , Gear seems to be the approriate goal ..
arenanet does not want you to be playing their game every single day for many months straight. instead, they just want you to play enough so you have a vested interest in the game but not obsessed and then come back whenever they release an expansion pack. if the game is actually legitimately fun and interesting and doesnt burn you out, it will be enough to keep most people coming back to check out the new stuff when it comes out. their primarily goal isnt to take over your life or to even pull you away from WoW, its to make it so you can enjoy the game enough so you become a loyal fan/customer that will return once in a while, not a total slave to the game.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
I guess I won't be playing this hack and slash mmo.
In the other thread you said this wasn't an MMORPG, it was an action MMO with RPG elements. We asked you then what you meant but you didn't reply.
If you ask 100 people what it means to be an MMORPG, you'll get 100 different answers.
We don't even know what you read in this thread that prompted your post.
We really believe that through things like the Personal Story, GW2 is trying to put the RPG back in MMORPG.
Why don't you tell us what your concerns are?
Cali, such post should be ignored. Dont feed the i***t
Ignoramus flaming.
The personal story they have advertised is definitely a good thing to bring about an RPG feeling, but I guarantee you something on such a grand scale- where hundreds if not thousands of people will want to impact the games society; it will not be as grandoir as they claim it to be. It will be another illusion to make you feel like you're playing an RPG.
Of course, I base this on nothing but my own speculations.
C'mon now. If Lambon decides he doesn't consider GW2 an MMORPG and therefore isn't going to play it, that's his choice to make.
I don't think anyone has issue with "not going to play it part". It's the definition thingy that's so discussion inspiring, since it's so different from common understanding of the word (or formal definitions).
I read the OP's link and actually for once got excited about the potential of this game. That is, until I saw the bad news:
NO ENDGAME PROGRESSION
Even RIFT with its gear progression started to get boring in between raiding because nothing else was developing or progressing my character. They fixed this by implementing the planar attunements feature. I am sorry, but not having gear progression and progression raids/dungeons is a big mistake and this game will not support much more than any other niche game after the first couple of months.
Maybe not a concern for a game that has no subscription fees, but a concern for a gamer who wants to play in a sustainable population and have ongoing goals in-game.
They might need to change the name of the game to "Vain Wars" since anything you get for endgame content or through micro transactions are mostly vanity gear.
C'mon now. If Lambon decides he doesn't consider GW2 an MMORPG and therefore isn't going to play it, that's his choice to make.
I don't think anyone has issue with "not going to play it part". It's the definition thingy that's so discussion inspiring, since it's so different from common understanding of the word (or formal definitions).
Sure, but calling him an idiot isn't much of a discussion.
They might need to change the name of the game to "Vain Wars" since anything you get for endgame content or through micro transactions are mostly vanity gear.
Going beyond the name, is there any meaningful difference between gear you get because it looks better and gear that makes your stat sheet look better?
One of the things I love the most about Arena.Net and Guild Wars 2 in paticular is their philosophy of not funneling all progression down to one play style, raiding. I feel a little bad for raiders in that they won't have any raid content at all, but in the end, there really can't be as none of them would ever be willing to allow loot / progression to be equal for any other type of content. We see it in every other game, the constant whines from raiders to remain leaders in elite gear and content over everyone else and the power struggle that always ensues if anyone ever challenges their dominance by appealing to the developers to allow other paths of progression on an equal footing.
Of course, it doesn't help that in THOSE other games, many of the developers themselves are elitist raiders who love promoting that kind of caste system in their games.
Originally posted by Ozivois I read the OP's link and actually for once got excited about the potential of this game. That is, until I saw the bad news:
NO ENDGAME PROGRESSION
Even RIFT with its gear progression started to get boring in between raiding because nothing else was developing or progressing my character. They fixed this by implementing the planar attunements feature. I am sorry, but not having gear progression and progression raids/dungeons is a big mistake and this game will not support much more than any other niche game after the first couple of months.
Maybe not a concern for a game that has no subscription fees, but a concern for a gamer who wants to play in a sustainable population and have ongoing goals in-game.
They might need to change the name of the game to "Vain Wars" since anything you get for endgame content or through micro transactions are mostly vanity gear.
Probably should have read some of the thread, along with that link. Multiple people have defined in great detail the many things that GW2 will offer for a player at max level, including progression. It just won't be tiered, vertical progression. It requires a bit of thinking outside the conventional wisdom to understand...which is hard for some people (including some developers). Rift is a prime example of why a paired-down and shallow version of the WoW formula won't keep people interested for long, even if you include everything on the conventional wisdom checklist (endgame raids, check!).
GW2 is going to be different. Not worse, not less... different. It's hard to understand, I guess...but claiming they don't have one of the items on the clone-MMO checklist disregards the fact that these games existed well before that checklist was defined. There's more than one way to make an MMORPG. Everyone's just been stuck in a rut for a while.
Claiming GW2 isn't an MMORPG is a silly argument. It's like claiming that Rock Band isn't REALLY playing instruments, so everyone should stop having fun playing it. The genre is what it is, and is constantly changing. The design philosophy behind GW2 harkens back to early games in the genre and their roots in MUDs and table-top RPGs in many respects, while providing some new thinking and innovative gameplay. It's as MMORPG as you can get, and much more so than a lot of the games released in the genre in the last few years.
I read the OP's link and actually for once got excited about the potential of this game. That is, until I saw the bad news:
NO ENDGAME PROGRESSION
Even RIFT with its gear progression started to get boring in between raiding because nothing else was developing or progressing my character. They fixed this by implementing the planar attunements feature. I am sorry, but not having gear progression and progression raids/dungeons is a big mistake and this game will not support much more than any other niche game after the first couple of months.
Maybe not a concern for a game that has no subscription fees, but a concern for a gamer who wants to play in a sustainable population and have ongoing goals in-game.
They might need to change the name of the game to "Vain Wars" since anything you get for endgame content or through micro transactions are mostly vanity gear.
Probably should have read some of the thread, along with that link. Multiple people have defined in great detail the many things that GW2 will offer for a player at max level, including progression. It just won't be tiered, vertical progression. It requires a bit of thinking outside the conventional wisdom to understand...which is hard for some people (including some developers). Rift is a prime example of why a paired-down and shallow version of the WoW formula won't keep people interested for long, even if you include everything on the conventional wisdom checklist (endgame raids, check!).
GW2 is going to be different. Not worse, not less... different. It's hard to understand, I guess...but claiming they don't have one of the items on the clone-MMO checklist disregards the fact that these games existed well before that checklist was defined. There's more than one way to make an MMORPG.
Claiming GW2 isn't an MMORPG is a silly argument. It's like claiming that Rock Band isn't REALLY playing instruments, so everyone should stop having fun playing it. The genre is what it is, and is constantly changing. The design philosophy behind GW2 harkens back to early games in the genre and their roots in MUDs and table-top RPGs in many respects, while providing some new thinking and innovative gameplay. It's as MMORPG as you can get, and much more so than a lot of the games released in the genre in the last few years.
No need preaching to the ill-informed some people will never ever get it and thats perfectly fine. I for one am grateful that a company like ANet is catering to a different crowd and cant wait to be taken back to the early days of the genre with a flavor of awesome production quality of an AAA MMO.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Gear progression is a horrible treadmill. I am glad they are pretty much getting rid of it (there will be a little bit of work to get the best stats).
One should consider that if the game is designed to be FUN, then that's the reward right there. You play it because you enjoy it. You don't need to be given better stats or the like. If you like FPS games and enjoy the gameplay, then you don't need to be getting unlockables or whatever to keep playing. My friends and I just got Section 8: Prejudice, and that's a fun game to play together. It has some silly unlockable system that I don't give a darn about and could be perfectly happy without. Why? BECAUSE THE GAME IS FUN.
Not having treadmills and a bunch of carrots helps keep the devs focused on making sure the gameplay maximizes fun. This is a similar to why they don't have a monthly fee. If the game is good, then the biggest reward is your enjoyment. There are lots of ways to enjoy the game as max level, so GW2 is far from barren of ways to entertain.
I read the OP's link and actually for once got excited about the potential of this game. That is, until I saw the bad news:
NO ENDGAME PROGRESSION
Even RIFT with its gear progression started to get boring in between raiding because nothing else was developing or progressing my character. They fixed this by implementing the planar attunements feature. I am sorry, but not having gear progression and progression raids/dungeons is a big mistake and this game will not support much more than any other niche game after the first couple of months.
Maybe not a concern for a game that has no subscription fees, but a concern for a gamer who wants to play in a sustainable population and have ongoing goals in-game.
They might need to change the name of the game to "Vain Wars" since anything you get for endgame content or through micro transactions are mostly vanity gear.
I understand this concern.
I think ArenaNet is trying to do something different. Whether or not they'll be successful, who knows, but this is my take on it.
I think that hopefully the difference in the experience we're going to have will be attributed to the difference between Rift and GW2. With Rift, if you're endgame raiding, what was there to do outside of raiding? For that particular toon, there was nothing, you can't replay quests, you can't meaningfully go do content you missed on the way up. For your other toons what was there? There was only one leveling path per faction, so leveling another toon meant doing everything again. And for what? You'd just be getting another toon into a position where they could start endgame raiding.
The way they fixed it is to put something else for your main toon to do, but essentially they're just adding raids. They're adding carrots on top of carrots.
What GW2 is hopefully trying to do is eliminate the need for the carrot. Some people raid for fun but I think it's mostly about the gear. You're trying to progress through bosses to get better stuff. It's not like anybody ever says, "oh that raid from two tiers ago was really fun, let's go do that again." (Does anybody say that? I've never heard it anyway)
Ages ago, I read an interview when a guy said that he gave up professional competitions because doing it made him enjoy it less. It became all about the money. Armchair psychology research here, but it seems like a real thing. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html I'm not going to start quoting from this, but it seems like a good read. If you're getting rewarded, you like something less than if you're doing it for fun. If the reward becomes the only reason you're doing something, you begin to dislike it. If you have to do something as a prerequisite to something you find fun (leveling, for instance) then you begin to dislike that thing.
With GW2, it's like what do you do when it's not really about gear anymore? You can pretty much do anything you want. The whole world is open to you and challenging and rewarding. The DEs don't always run and will be in different stages and they'll add DEs so you can replay a zone and see new stuff instead of the same linear quest chain you've already done. You've got achievements and collecting things, or getting prettier stuff if you want, but you don't have to. You've got 3 faction world PVP that keeps track of your server's W/L record. You've got 32 dungeons and 30 minigames and hidden events. You've got a branching personal story. There's really a lot of stuff here.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Comments
There are plenty of tabletop RPGs that involve no dices or don't emphasize progression (e.g.with players assuming new characters for each scenario). That doesn't make them any less of role-playing game. That doesn't make GW2 any less of MMORPG.
The entire game world can be enjoyed at any level.
Dungeons have hard modes and the game offers Server x3 pvp and instanced pvp maps.
What else do you need?
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
I think a lot of you are missing the point of how GW2 will be played. It's a skill rather then gear based game.
What this means is you won't be grinding for gear at all, the endgame is pvp only. There's no monthly sub so what you'll be doing is logging in to pvp only. Just like playing a sport, say football or whatever, the more you play the better you'll be at it. That's your progression.
No raids, no gear. If you want to stand out, don't be bad.
No, the dice determine whether your choices succed or fail, and to what degree. Your choices are what determines everything (and the choices of the DM). The dice are just one of several possible mechanics to facilitate that. The most popular, no doubt, but not the only one.
Statistics still influence a lot of what happens in GW2, and the rest is determined by what you chose to do with your character within the frame of options layed out to you. That is exactly what an RPG is.
You just pointed out the flaw of maxed-level-geared . indeed , in WoW , once you hit max you get way extremly better gear than ur prev levelling gear . That's what ( imo ) the developers of gw2 (ANet) try to avoid, which is good .
But imagine this, after somene hit 80 with all those activities offered, do you think all these activities going to motivate enough players to regularly get to their computer when the offers are titles and costumes?
We can argue my question over and over , but the point is : there will be a lot of activities but the reward is only title and cosmetic . ( and probz better gear which everyone can get em easily)
I dislike the current WoW with the same reason u just said ; about ' ppl with awesum gear tend to ruin others' experience' , and I see GW2 as a game that challenge WoW's gear ideology . plus + It's also been admitted that the gear progression in WoW is too extreme (once u hit 85).
but the gear philosophy isnt wrong itself: Some ppl still see cosmetic items and achievement as secondary reward, yes this line is subjective , but at some point it is what draws online players to play the game ; in order to be better ..
I am not concerned with the content of gw2 , but the reward they offer . Maybe the word 'shackle' is a bit negative , but that is the point of evry online game.
I am just concerned whether 'hardcore players' have a spot in this 'casual-feelings' game ? You can accuse me for being 'elitist' , but i believe everyone desserve to have a place and at certain level be satisfied about it.
Level 80 content in the usual sense, that is, the only thing you do at level 80, doesn't exist in GW2.
Level 80 is merely the point where your character stops leveling up and you can access every bit of content the game offers, which includes everything from where you began leveling to where you can go at level 80. Content below level 80 does not become irrelevant, which seems to be the thing people have a hard time wrapping their heads around.
We're all gonna be thrilled playing a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying game by the rules set forth by WotC, until some 14 year old wizards start spamming Timestop ....
Tabletop rpg's are round based, which does not go well with the online nature of MMORPG's, server wide effects that are fine at the table are not going to work out well
Roleplaying is not defined by, nor confined to, throwing dice and character development is not expressed by gaining levels. If you want DnD in online format, Neverwinter Nights is still available at GOG, I think, and last time I checked NWVault was still online.
Shackling the player is by no means point of every online game - it's expectation some players (including you) have, but it doesn't mean that every game should cater to that expectation. GW2 is made for players who don't want to be shackled (including me).
I think there's no place in GW2 for players who absolutely must be shackled to the game, otherwise they don't enjoy it - but I think they are only subgroup of hardcore players. Furthermore, I don't believe in "everyone should have their place in every game" philosophy. It doesn't work in market of opposing interests, and in such market it's more beneficial to create great game for one group than average for everyone.
I meant to say just that. Your actions success determined by the dice roll. Attacking, defending, evading, you know the rest.
I highly doubt I will be able to allign myself to a certain faction. In fact, I highly doubt ANY of the actions I act upon; will change the outcome of ANYTHING that happens to my character.
Star Wars would be a far better RPG if were going to trivialize RPGs. Not that it's a bad game. I think choosing to be good, neutral, evil is fun, but the gameplay to is not very good. It's fun to watch though.
Did I not suggest they sell this game under a different genre? Hack and Slash MMO. or AMMO or what every fancy title they can come up with.
Cali, such post should be ignored. Dont feed the i***t
arenanet does not want you to be playing their game every single day for many months straight. instead, they just want you to play enough so you have a vested interest in the game but not obsessed and then come back whenever they release an expansion pack. if the game is actually legitimately fun and interesting and doesnt burn you out, it will be enough to keep most people coming back to check out the new stuff when it comes out. their primarily goal isnt to take over your life or to even pull you away from WoW, its to make it so you can enjoy the game enough so you become a loyal fan/customer that will return once in a while, not a total slave to the game.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
C'mon now. If Lambon decides he doesn't consider GW2 an MMORPG and therefore isn't going to play it, that's his choice to make.
Ignoramus flaming.
The personal story they have advertised is definitely a good thing to bring about an RPG feeling, but I guarantee you something on such a grand scale- where hundreds if not thousands of people will want to impact the games society; it will not be as grandoir as they claim it to be. It will be another illusion to make you feel like you're playing an RPG.
Of course, I base this on nothing but my own speculations.
As for Mazut, grow up.
I don't think anyone has issue with "not going to play it part". It's the definition thingy that's so discussion inspiring, since it's so different from common understanding of the word (or formal definitions).
I read the OP's link and actually for once got excited about the potential of this game. That is, until I saw the bad news:
NO ENDGAME PROGRESSION
Even RIFT with its gear progression started to get boring in between raiding because nothing else was developing or progressing my character. They fixed this by implementing the planar attunements feature. I am sorry, but not having gear progression and progression raids/dungeons is a big mistake and this game will not support much more than any other niche game after the first couple of months.
Maybe not a concern for a game that has no subscription fees, but a concern for a gamer who wants to play in a sustainable population and have ongoing goals in-game.
They might need to change the name of the game to "Vain Wars" since anything you get for endgame content or through micro transactions are mostly vanity gear.
Sure, but calling him an idiot isn't much of a discussion.
Going beyond the name, is there any meaningful difference between gear you get because it looks better and gear that makes your stat sheet look better?
One of the things I love the most about Arena.Net and Guild Wars 2 in paticular is their philosophy of not funneling all progression down to one play style, raiding. I feel a little bad for raiders in that they won't have any raid content at all, but in the end, there really can't be as none of them would ever be willing to allow loot / progression to be equal for any other type of content. We see it in every other game, the constant whines from raiders to remain leaders in elite gear and content over everyone else and the power struggle that always ensues if anyone ever challenges their dominance by appealing to the developers to allow other paths of progression on an equal footing.
Of course, it doesn't help that in THOSE other games, many of the developers themselves are elitist raiders who love promoting that kind of caste system in their games.
I really dont care what other people think, I just wish Anet would shift their butts and hurry up with the release.
Probably should have read some of the thread, along with that link. Multiple people have defined in great detail the many things that GW2 will offer for a player at max level, including progression. It just won't be tiered, vertical progression. It requires a bit of thinking outside the conventional wisdom to understand...which is hard for some people (including some developers). Rift is a prime example of why a paired-down and shallow version of the WoW formula won't keep people interested for long, even if you include everything on the conventional wisdom checklist (endgame raids, check!).
GW2 is going to be different. Not worse, not less... different. It's hard to understand, I guess...but claiming they don't have one of the items on the clone-MMO checklist disregards the fact that these games existed well before that checklist was defined. There's more than one way to make an MMORPG. Everyone's just been stuck in a rut for a while.
Claiming GW2 isn't an MMORPG is a silly argument. It's like claiming that Rock Band isn't REALLY playing instruments, so everyone should stop having fun playing it. The genre is what it is, and is constantly changing. The design philosophy behind GW2 harkens back to early games in the genre and their roots in MUDs and table-top RPGs in many respects, while providing some new thinking and innovative gameplay. It's as MMORPG as you can get, and much more so than a lot of the games released in the genre in the last few years.
No need preaching to the ill-informed some people will never ever get it and thats perfectly fine. I for one am grateful that a company like ANet is catering to a different crowd and cant wait to be taken back to the early days of the genre with a flavor of awesome production quality of an AAA MMO.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Gear progression is a horrible treadmill. I am glad they are pretty much getting rid of it (there will be a little bit of work to get the best stats).
One should consider that if the game is designed to be FUN, then that's the reward right there. You play it because you enjoy it. You don't need to be given better stats or the like. If you like FPS games and enjoy the gameplay, then you don't need to be getting unlockables or whatever to keep playing. My friends and I just got Section 8: Prejudice, and that's a fun game to play together. It has some silly unlockable system that I don't give a darn about and could be perfectly happy without. Why? BECAUSE THE GAME IS FUN.
Not having treadmills and a bunch of carrots helps keep the devs focused on making sure the gameplay maximizes fun. This is a similar to why they don't have a monthly fee. If the game is good, then the biggest reward is your enjoyment. There are lots of ways to enjoy the game as max level, so GW2 is far from barren of ways to entertain.
I understand this concern.
I think ArenaNet is trying to do something different. Whether or not they'll be successful, who knows, but this is my take on it.
I think that hopefully the difference in the experience we're going to have will be attributed to the difference between Rift and GW2. With Rift, if you're endgame raiding, what was there to do outside of raiding? For that particular toon, there was nothing, you can't replay quests, you can't meaningfully go do content you missed on the way up. For your other toons what was there? There was only one leveling path per faction, so leveling another toon meant doing everything again. And for what? You'd just be getting another toon into a position where they could start endgame raiding.
The way they fixed it is to put something else for your main toon to do, but essentially they're just adding raids. They're adding carrots on top of carrots.
What GW2 is hopefully trying to do is eliminate the need for the carrot. Some people raid for fun but I think it's mostly about the gear. You're trying to progress through bosses to get better stuff. It's not like anybody ever says, "oh that raid from two tiers ago was really fun, let's go do that again." (Does anybody say that? I've never heard it anyway)
Ages ago, I read an interview when a guy said that he gave up professional competitions because doing it made him enjoy it less. It became all about the money. Armchair psychology research here, but it seems like a real thing. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html I'm not going to start quoting from this, but it seems like a good read. If you're getting rewarded, you like something less than if you're doing it for fun. If the reward becomes the only reason you're doing something, you begin to dislike it. If you have to do something as a prerequisite to something you find fun (leveling, for instance) then you begin to dislike that thing.
With GW2, it's like what do you do when it's not really about gear anymore? You can pretty much do anything you want. The whole world is open to you and challenging and rewarding. The DEs don't always run and will be in different stages and they'll add DEs so you can replay a zone and see new stuff instead of the same linear quest chain you've already done. You've got achievements and collecting things, or getting prettier stuff if you want, but you don't have to. You've got 3 faction world PVP that keeps track of your server's W/L record. You've got 32 dungeons and 30 minigames and hidden events. You've got a branching personal story. There's really a lot of stuff here.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
If you don't like something, why are you trying to change it?
Simply move on to something you do enjoy.
That's what I believe anyway.