Here's the thing you keep missing.. THERE IS BETTER GEAR... It just isn't such a substantial leap that it becomes an IWIN button versus other gear, the power gaps are much much smaller than you would see in tier leaps in WoW between sets, or between T2 and T3 gear in Rift.
I'm not sure what do you mean by that - sure, there is better gear (stats raise with levels), but as soon as you hit 80, progression stops. There is no gap (not even small one) between player who just obtained his lvl 80 gear and a fellow that has been on level 80 forever.
Here's the thing you keep missing.. THERE IS BETTER GEAR... It just isn't such a substantial leap that it becomes an IWIN button versus other gear, the power gaps are much much smaller than you would see in tier leaps in WoW between sets, or between T2 and T3 gear in Rift.
I'm not sure what do you mean by that - sure, there is better gear (stats raise with levels), but as soon as you hit 80, progression stops. There is no gap (not even small one) between player who just obtained his lvl 80 gear and a fellow that has been on level 80 forever.
They have said there's a very tiny amount of progression at 80, but they don't intend on having anything more than that.
Here's the thing you keep missing.. THERE IS BETTER GEAR... It just isn't such a substantial leap that it becomes an IWIN button versus other gear, the power gaps are much much smaller than you would see in tier leaps in WoW between sets, or between T2 and T3 gear in Rift.
I'm not sure what do you mean by that - sure, there is better gear (stats raise with levels), but as soon as you hit 80, progression stops. There is no gap (not even small one) between player who just obtained his lvl 80 gear and a fellow that has been on level 80 forever.
They have said there's a very tiny amount of progression at 80, but they don't intend on having anything more than that.
Anet's philosophy is clear in that matter - you will be able to get max stat items quickly after reaching level 80 - no tiny, prolonged progression after that. Of course, you won't get them instantly, so I suppose that's your tiny amount of progression at 80.
Here's the thing you keep missing.. THERE IS BETTER GEAR... It just isn't such a substantial leap that it becomes an IWIN button versus other gear, the power gaps are much much smaller than you would see in tier leaps in WoW between sets, or between T2 and T3 gear in Rift.
I'm not sure what do you mean by that - sure, there is better gear (stats raise with levels), but as soon as you hit 80, progression stops. There is no gap (not even small one) between player who just obtained his lvl 80 gear and a fellow that has been on level 80 forever.
They have said there's a very tiny amount of progression at 80, but they don't intend on having anything more than that.
Anet's philosophy is clear in that matter - you will be able to get max stat items quickly after reaching level 80 - no tiny, prolonged progression after that. Of course, you won't get them instantly, so I suppose that's your tiny amount of progression at 80.
That's all I've been saying about it. I neve said it was prolonged.
Here's the thing you keep missing.. THERE IS BETTER GEAR... It just isn't such a substantial leap that it becomes an IWIN button versus other gear, the power gaps are much much smaller than you would see in tier leaps in WoW between sets, or between T2 and T3 gear in Rift.
I'm not sure what do you mean by that - sure, there is better gear (stats raise with levels), but as soon as you hit 80, progression stops. There is no gap (not even small one) between player who just obtained his lvl 80 gear and a fellow that has been on level 80 forever.
They have said there's a very tiny amount of progression at 80, but they don't intend on having anything more than that.
Anet's philosophy is clear in that matter - you will be able to get max stat items quickly after reaching level 80 - no tiny, prolonged progression after that. Of course, you won't get them instantly, so I suppose that's your tiny amount of progression at 80.
If there truly is no prolonged progression of some sort once at max level, that would be really unfortunate. This would essentially mean it's time to retire your character and reroll. After having invested so much time and effort into building my character to that level, I'd like the game to give me an opportunity and a reason to use that fully built character (from a pve as well as a pvp perspective.)
Despite the vast quantities of awesomeness GW2 will undoubtedly have, and even despite my love of alts (there are 5 race/class combinations I know I will want to level fully in GW2,) this would be a huge negative. Anet strikes me as a company who understands how character progression is the driving force behind many players' desires to continue to play a given character. So I can't see them forsaking this vital component entirely.
I haven't read any concrete Anet blog or news article concerning max level progression where they say anything "clear" or absolute regarding this matter, however. Every time I see "end game" brought up, they dish out the obligatory ambiguous lines: ie. "We're not ready to reveal everything we have in store for max level players, but rest assured, you will have plenty to do " or "Don't forget, this we work through a very iterative process. So everything is always subject to change. We're constantly seeking ways to imropve all areas of our game." If I've just missed it, I'd appreciate it if you could provide a link
If there truly is no prolonged progression of some sort once at max level, that would be really unfortunate. This would essentially mean it's time to retire your character and reroll. After having invested so much time and effort into building my character to that level, I'd like the game to give me an opportunity and a reason to use that fully built character (from a pve as well as a pvp perspective.)
Despite the vast quantities of awesomeness GW2 will undoubtedly have, and even despite my love of alts (there are 5 race/class combinations I know I will want to level fully in GW2,) this would be a huge negative. Anet strikes me as a company who understands how character progression is the driving force behind many players' desires to continue to play a given character. So I can't see them forsaking this vital component entirely.
I haven't read any concrete Anet blog or news article concerning max level progression where they say anything "clear" or absolute regarding this matter, however. Every time I see "end game" brought up, they dish out the obligatory ambiguous lines: ie. "We're not ready to reveal everything we have in store for max level players, but rest assured, you will have plenty to do " or "Don't forget, this we work through a very iterative process. So everything is always subject to change. We're constantly seeking ways to imropve all areas of our game." If I've just missed it, I'd appreciate it if you could provide a link
My understanding of Anet's philosophy is that they don't want to tie you to character/game with progression - they prefer to use content/fun, instead. This blogpost: http://www.arena.net/blog/progression-and-leveling-in-guild-wars-2 , describes their general approach (content instead of progression), and while it doesn't exclude possibility of endgame gear stat progression, there have been several interviews in which they confirmed there will be almost none of it (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing_Guild_Wars_2_Dynamic_Events , 1:07:45). This is something pretty fundamental to their design (and one of the philosophy basics GW2 inherits from first game), so I don't expect it to be subject of change.
The way I see it, there is no special reason needed to play my character other than the fact that I enjoy it. If you need additional motivation, you should probably look for another game. Or just play it once, without special investment into characters - should be worth the money anyway.
The way I see it, there is no special reason needed to play my character other than the fact that I enjoy it. If you need additional motivation, you should probably look for another game. Or just play it once, without special investment into characters - should be worth the money anyway.
You will have titles/achievements+armor skins, and you cant grind (not force gring) this for months, even years.
If there truly is no prolonged progression of some sort once at max level, that would be really unfortunate. This would essentially mean it's time to retire your character and reroll. After having invested so much time and effort into building my character to that level, I'd like the game to give me an opportunity and a reason to use that fully built character (from a pve as well as a pvp perspective.)
If you don't have fun just playing your character and doing whatever content, then is it really that great to just do stuff to get little rewards in-game? That's a pretty horrible gaming experience if you think about it. If you enjoy the play and enjoy the content, then you don't need rewards for it.
Consider a Mario game. You don't get rewards and crap for doing a level. You just get the level done and it is fun because the level design and gameplay is fun. This applies just as much to RPGs as anything else.
Also, consider the fact that by not having power progression of large significance at max level, they also keep all content challenging and meaningful to do. Lower level areas scale you down, high level areas don't become a joke like they do in WoW-like MMOs. All content is fun and you don't faceroll it. That's good stuff.
And if the content isn't fun? Well, then you should stop playing the game. The last thing I'd want in a game is incentives to try to get you to keep doing something you don't really enjoy.
If there truly is no prolonged progression of some sort once at max level, that would be really unfortunate. This would essentially mean it's time to retire your character and reroll. After having invested so much time and effort into building my character to that level, I'd like the game to give me an opportunity and a reason to use that fully built character (from a pve as well as a pvp perspective.) ...
Mhh, 80 levels at approx 1.5~2 hours per level, dungeons, personal story and 1500 Dynamic Events should be able to give you something to do until the first expansion is released.
If there truly is no prolonged progression of some sort once at max level, that would be really unfortunate. This would essentially mean it's time to retire your character and reroll. After having invested so much time and effort into building my character to that level, I'd like the game to give me an opportunity and a reason to use that fully built character (from a pve as well as a pvp perspective.) ...
Mhh, 80 levels at approx 1.5~2 hours per level, dungeons, personal story and 1500 Dynamic Events should be able to give you something to do until the first expansion is released.
not really, lets assume the levelling is great fun and you spend 25 hours a week playing the game, at the speed you give you will hit max level in about 7 weeks, and then say another 8 weeks at max level content. So as people have said, at this point it is either start again or end game cycle. It will be a year and a half probably for next expansion. Dont forget, you are paying a sub at this point.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
As has been stated GW doesn't really revolve around gear, and neither does GW2. They are more tools in the sense that you need a gun to use certain skills, or a sword to use others, and you can add minor enhancements for some perks, but the weapons vary very little in terms of strength w/ out enhancements. It's mostly cosmetic.
In GW1, there were dungeons at the end that you could run to find certain rare weapons that looked cool, and came with the enhancements you wanted built in, or you could go find another weapon you thought looked cool and added the stats you wanted after.
There are 'grinds' at end game, but they are really optional, not mandatory. For example you can grind / farm reputation for places if you need it, or PvP for contribution points to buy new stuff, or farm money / enhancements for your gear. The stuff isn't mandatory by any means, but some people still do it.
thanks for insight on the first GW, ....
Well man, ur point makes me even more confused. Then what is the point for coming online regularly other than having social interaction with ur frens (doing pvp and dungeons)?
Because as far as i can see myself , i wont be motivated enough to go online regularly if the reward is only to make me prettier .. I understand the idea : skill > gear , but rewarding 'no-life' players with only "good looks" is kinda harsh dun u think?
pls dun misunderstand me , i think GW2 is going to give WoW some "ooo shit" moment more and yes i 100% will play this game , but i am just worry that there wont be enough 'to-do' when u reach max level.
His point is that the motivation to do the content is not some endless fight against gear stat inflation, you logon to enjoy the content and have the luxury if picking exactly what content you want to do when and for your own motives - no 'must do instance 1 for tier 1 so i can progress to tier 2 dungeon that goes on for ever. Also tier 1 does not become redundant because you have all tier 2 gear either. As he rightly points out GW1 solved all raiding stat inflation and raid grind issues, its a proven model that works very well and doesnt depreciate over time. Ask yourself, why do you want to dungeons?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
It will be a year and a half probably for next expansion. Dont forget, you are paying a sub at this point.
Year and a half? What do you base that on?
Paying a sub? *boggle*
GW2 skeptics (I don't want to say haters, that's very childish) are known for trying to speculate that there will be so many expansions that it'll be far more than the initial box price that you're paying, thus you're "paying a sub". For one thing, I believe they stated they won't be releasing paid expansions, nor will they be using a subscription format. Maybe some people think it's too good to be true, or maybe they're not happy that their game is going to cost them even after they've bought it. They need to deal with it and stop all the misinformation about GW2's business plan that they know nothing about. Hell, it's in public view, but they still don't know the facts.
What do u mean endgame. Gw 2 doesnt have endgame its not a typical mmo. U dont have end game in gw 2 its reinventing the genre and end game is the first thign its getting rid of.
It will be a year and a half probably for next expansion. Dont forget, you are paying a sub at this point.
Year and a half? What do you base that on?
Paying a sub? *boggle*
edit actually wrong game ignore lol, was involved in a swtor chat and got posts mixed up. GW2 game is the entire opposite, there is huge amounts of content that WILL easily last to next expansion.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
What do u mean endgame. Gw 2 doesnt have endgame its not a typical mmo. U dont have end game in gw 2 its reinventing the genre and end game is the first thign its getting rid of.
The hell you say! GW2 is not innovative - after all, you still press buttons - and it's not quality because players aren't paying a subscription so that ANet can make more entertaining content (???). Get with the program, pal! GW2 suuuuucks.
If there truly is no prolonged progression of some sort once at max level, that would be really unfortunate. This would essentially mean it's time to retire your character and reroll. After having invested so much time and effort into building my character to that level, I'd like the game to give me an opportunity and a reason to use that fully built character (from a pve as well as a pvp perspective.)
If you don't have fun just playing your character and doing whatever content, then is it really that great to just do stuff to get little rewards in-game? That's a pretty horrible gaming experience if you think about it. If you enjoy the play and enjoy the content, then you don't need rewards for it.
Consider a Mario game. You don't get rewards and crap for doing a level. You just get the level done and it is fun because the level design and gameplay is fun. This applies just as much to RPGs as anything else.
Also, consider the fact that by not having power progression of large significance at max level, they also keep all content challenging and meaningful to do. Lower level areas scale you down, high level areas don't become a joke like they do in WoW-like MMOs. All content is fun and you don't faceroll it. That's good stuff.
And if the content isn't fun? Well, then you should stop playing the game. The last thing I'd want in a game is incentives to try to get you to keep doing something you don't really enjoy.
You're essentially talking about 2 distinct components of a game here: gameplay and character progression. When a game or part of a game is dominated by progression alone, we call this game or part "grindy." Your last paragraph essentially defines a grindy game. I agree, it does sound pretty un-fun. And yet, millions of players have participated in ridiculous grinds, that is, hours upon hours of pure, unfiltered, boring gameplay, solely in the name of acquiring that new item or ability or achievement or mount or whatever. Progression can be so compelling for some that it can actually cause players to suffer through hours of boredom just to experience the eventual positive effects. For this reason, I consider progression to be the addictive element to games. It's what keeps players playing.
On the other hand, you have games that feature immediate fun and interactive gameplay but little character progression. You listed Mario, which I think is apt. Many traditional platformers, action adventure games, sports games and first-person shooters are all about the pure engaging fun of pressing the buttons in a quick, reflexive manner. They can succeed because the gameplay itself is so mentally stimulating.
I would, however, totally disagree that any RPG has ever fit into this category. If there is one, I have never played it (which is certainly possible.) From 'catching 'em all' in Pokemon, to unlocking your ultimate limit breaks in the Final Fantasy games, these games are all about progression. Heck, DnD and MUDs featured progression as prominent features.
And now recently games from all genres have added progression to their formulas. Many FPSs feature character levels, stats, weapon upgrades, and ability unlocks. Sports games feature franchise modes. Even games like DDR and Rockband have you playing through challenges to unlock new tiers of content, earn money/points and spend them on new upgrades. I say this only to explain just how important this feeling of progression apparently is to so many players, and that game developers of every genre have picked up on it.
I agree. I'm absolutely not a fan of grinds. I don't want any huge chunks of the game to have just progression or just fun gameplay. I want all major parts of my RPG experience to have both, as there's no reason it can't. If progression is completely absent at max level and I want to do something in particular in the game, I'll likely be prone to switching to an alt, because at least he'll "get something out of it." And that really sucks because, like I said in my earlier post, I would like a reason to play my level 80 character; that's the character I will have had formed the strongest relationship with.
(NOTE: It seems this post has become more of a long-winded--I know no other way--philosophical rambling about the necessity of progression in games today, especially RPGs and MMOs than anything about GW2 specifically.)
Originally posted by mazut
Originally posted by rdash
The way I see it, there is no special reason needed to play my character other than the fact that I enjoy it. If you need additional motivation, you should probably look for another game. Or just play it once, without special investment into characters - should be worth the money anyway.
You will have titles/achievements+armor skins, and you cant grind (not force gring) this for months, even years.
As long as many of the titles, achievements, and armor/weapon skins are difficult to obtain so that they come to represent elite accomplishments, that would likely be enough to satiate my apetite for progression. I can see myself at least logging back on to my main first character again to continue to build up that character's legend. And of course my first character will probably be my go-to toon for WvWvW pvp for a while.
If there truly is no prolonged progression of some sort once at max level, that would be really unfortunate. This would essentially mean it's time to retire your character and reroll. After having invested so much time and effort into building my character to that level, I'd like the game to give me an opportunity and a reason to use that fully built character (from a pve as well as a pvp perspective.)
If you don't have fun just playing your character and doing whatever content, then is it really that great to just do stuff to get little rewards in-game? That's a pretty horrible gaming experience if you think about it. If you enjoy the play and enjoy the content, then you don't need rewards for it.
Consider a Mario game. You don't get rewards and crap for doing a level. You just get the level done and it is fun because the level design and gameplay is fun. This applies just as much to RPGs as anything else.
Also, consider the fact that by not having power progression of large significance at max level, they also keep all content challenging and meaningful to do. Lower level areas scale you down, high level areas don't become a joke like they do in WoW-like MMOs. All content is fun and you don't faceroll it. That's good stuff.
And if the content isn't fun? Well, then you should stop playing the game. The last thing I'd want in a game is incentives to try to get you to keep doing something you don't really enjoy.
You're essentially talking about 2 distinct components of a game here: gameplay and character progression. When a game or part of a game is dominated by progression alone, we call this game or part "grindy." Your last paragraph essentially defines a grindy game. I agree, it does sound pretty un-fun. And yet, millions of players have participated in ridiculous grinds, that is, hours upon hours of pure, unfiltered, boring gameplay, solely in the name of acquiring that new item or ability or achievement or mount or whatever. Progression can be so compelling for some that it can actually cause players to suffer through hours of boredom just to experience the eventual positive effects. For this reason, I consider progression to be the addictive element to games. It's what keeps players playing.
On the other hand, you have games that feature immediate fun and interactive gameplay but little character progression. You listed Mario, which I think is apt. Many traditional platformers, action adventure games, sports games and first-person shooters are all about the pure engaging fun of pressing the buttons in a quick, reflexive manner. They can succeed because the gameplay itself is so mentally stimulating.
I would, however, totally disagree that any RPG has ever fit into this category. If there is one, I have never played it (which is certainly possible.) From 'catching 'em all' in Pokemon, to unlocking your ultimate limit breaks in the Final Fantasy games, these games are all about progression. Heck, DnD and MUDs featured progression as prominent features.
And now recently games from all genres have added progression to their formulas. Many FPSs feature character levels, stats, weapon upgrades, and ability unlocks. Sports games feature franchise modes. Even games like DDR and Rockband have you playing through challenges to unlock new tiers of content, earn money/points and spend them on new upgrades. I say this only to explain just how important this feeling of progression apparently is to so many players, and that game developers of every genre have picked up on it.
I agree. I'm absolutely not a fan of grinds. I don't want any huge chunks of the game to have just progression or just fun gameplay. I want all major parts of my RPG experience to have both, as there's no reason it can't. If progression is completely absent at max level and I want to do something in particular in the game, I'll likely be prone to switching to an alt, because at least he'll "get something out of it." And that really sucks because, like I said in my earlier post, I would like a reason to play my level 80 character; that's the character I will have had formed the strongest relationship with.
(NOTE: It seems this post has become more of a long-winded--I know no other way--philosophical rambling about the necessity of progression in games today, especially RPGs and MMOs than anything about GW2 specifically.)
Well, I think you are acting like you can divorce progression from gameplay...and you really can't unless you remove the progression. You can't have progression without gameplay at all (unless you can pay for it).
I don't think you really appreciate what unending progression does to an MMO. It inherently ruins it. If you can continually build power, then bigger and bigger challenges have to be made for you. Older content becomes easy and not worth playing. Everyone else is forced to progress to use the new content and to be competitive in PvP. The game will revolve around progression and doing progression related tasks. Other sorts of gameplay will fall by the wayside, especially in terms of development since you have now trained everyone to want progression. Content and so forth will become dominated and adversely affected by this progression.
RPGs do NOT require progression in power at all. It's easiest to find examples in Pen and Paper RPGs of this. I played many campaigns that didn't have ANY progression in power, and only the story progressed. It was fun and engaging because roleplaying is fun. In fact, there are some D&D house rules that some use that sharply stop progression and people have fun with it. Similarly, a game can be fun without progression and you play it BECAUSE IT IS FUN.
If you feel like you MUST get some sort of new power carrot when you do something in an MMO, then GW2 will not be for you. At least not once you've gotten all the horizontal progression (there's a fair amount, from what I understand). Personally, I don't have that need. I have enjoyed games of many genres that had no progression. I've enjoyed some games less because the progression hurt it and rather wished it had no progression at all. I've played some story-based games that have no progression at all (though I can't remember names off the top of my head), and that's essentially an RPG when you are in the role of a character.
.., I'll likely be prone to switching to an alt, because at least he'll "get something out of it." And that really sucks because, like I said in my earlier post, I would like a reason to play my level 80 character...
I don't know what else to tell you except that they know power progression games very well, and that for a long time they have been unequivocal about the fact that they are not making a power progression game. At the very beginning (in the PC Gamer article I think) they left the option open and spoke about conisdering completely open ended power progression. There has definitely been no mention of that option that I have seen or heard since the first GamesCom showcase. All of E. Flannum's comments on the subject have been along the lines of "it'll be very easy to reach the power plateau".
Charr: Outta my way. Human: What's your problem? Charr: Your thin skin.
Essentially GW 2 is going for more of a MMO being a world aspect than the progression aspect. Guild Wars 2 has no progression essentially, except skill collection. The ladder of which being seemingly easier to acquire then in the original game. Once you hit the maximum level there is no gear carrot on a stick style gameplay. All you have is PvP. (that of which will also not have progression that makes your character stronger) This is one of the reasons I don't believe GW 2 is going to be a huge hit, and that it will be more like the original game; A solid title that has a moderate amount of success, but no lasting value with a diminished active player base over time and subsequent expansions.
I just hope the gameplay and PvP is enough to keep me interested for a long time, but I doubt it. It will be worth the purchase price though, which may prove to be the biggest advantage this game has over it's competitors.
not really, lets assume the levelling is great fun and you spend 25 hours a week playing the game, at the speed you give you will hit max level in about 7 weeks, and then say another 8 weeks at max level content. So as people have said, at this point it is either start again or end game cycle. It will be a year and a half probably for next expansion. Dont forget, you are paying a sub at this point.
25 hours per week on average is quite a lot, a lot more then most people will be able to burn on a game. Maybe in a holiday but after that the available time per week will be a lot less, for most people, and leveling and content will last quite a bit. For those who do have 25 hours per week to burn, It is not reasonable to expect a game to provide content for 25 hours per week for months on row, or 1250 hours in a year and an alternate characters or games are where you'll have to look.
Essentially GW 2 is going for more of a MMO being a world aspect than the progression aspect. Guild Wars 2 has no progression essentially, except skill collection. The ladder of which being seemingly easier to acquire then in the original game. Once you hit the maximum level there is no gear carrot on a stick style gameplay. All you have is PvP. (that of which will also not have progression that makes your character stronger) This is one of the reasons I don't believe GW 2 is going to be a huge hit, and that it will be more like the original game; A solid title that has a moderate amount of success, but no lasting value with a diminished active player base over time and subsequent expansions.
I just hope the gameplay and PvP is enough to keep me interested for a long time, but I doubt it. It will be worth the purchase price though, which may prove to be the biggest advantage this game has over it's competitors.
You have tournament PvP, WvWvW PvP, challenging dungeons, Dynamic Events that remain challenging because they adjust your level and gear doesn't make you overpowered many of which have large and challenging enemies, and general world exploration.
There's quite a bit of PvP and PvE content for people of max level, especially since areas you have been to in the past will be different if you go back because of the DE system, as well as the fact DEs will be added and modified as the game goes on. It certainly compares favorably to popular multiplayer games that people play for months or years.
Essentially GW 2 is going for more of a MMO being a world aspect than the progression aspect. Guild Wars 2 has no progression essentially, except skill collection. The ladder of which being seemingly easier to acquire then in the original game. Once you hit the maximum level there is no gear carrot on a stick style gameplay. All you have is PvP. (that of which will also not have progression that makes your character stronger) This is one of the reasons I don't believe GW 2 is going to be a huge hit, and that it will be more like the original game; A solid title that has a moderate amount of success, but no lasting value with a diminished active player base over time and subsequent expansions.
I just hope the gameplay and PvP is enough to keep me interested for a long time, but I doubt it. It will be worth the purchase price though, which may prove to be the biggest advantage this game has over it's competitors.
You have tournament PvP, WvWvW PvP, challenging dungeons, Dynamic Events that remain challenging because they adjust your level and gear doesn't make you overpowered many of which have large and challenging enemies, and general world exploration.
There's quite a bit of PvP and PvE content for people of max level, especially since areas you have been to in the past will be different if you go back because of the DE system, as well as the fact DEs will be added and modified as the game goes on. It certainly compares favorably to popular multiplayer games that people play for months or years.
That may be true, but the fact of the matter is that the typical MMO player plays MMO's for years because of goals to meet which allow you to progress your character. Yes ArenaNet will add new content, but it will be (and has proven to be in the original game) not a large amount of content unless it is in a paid expansion. Other then seeing all the content there won't be anything to do for people who like character progression. People usually quit playing when they cannot advance characters further. (Something that happened in the original Guild Wars) Tournaments,ranking,ect are wonderful but only focus on a small minority of players compared to the amount of players who like "carrot on a stick" gameplay.
There is a flip side to this. If Guild Wars 2 proves to be a good MMO on it's own, it can bring new players into the genre. I just don't believe that a shift of attitude like this would happen so quickly in one game.
Essentially GW 2 is going for more of a MMO being a world aspect than the progression aspect. Guild Wars 2 has no progression essentially, except skill collection. The ladder of which being seemingly easier to acquire then in the original game. Once you hit the maximum level there is no gear carrot on a stick style gameplay. All you have is PvP. (that of which will also not have progression that makes your character stronger) This is one of the reasons I don't believe GW 2 is going to be a huge hit, and that it will be more like the original game; A solid title that has a moderate amount of success, but no lasting value with a diminished active player base over time and subsequent expansions.
I just hope the gameplay and PvP is enough to keep me interested for a long time, but I doubt it. It will be worth the purchase price though, which may prove to be the biggest advantage this game has over it's competitors.
You have tournament PvP, WvWvW PvP, challenging dungeons, Dynamic Events that remain challenging because they adjust your level and gear doesn't make you overpowered many of which have large and challenging enemies, and general world exploration.
There's quite a bit of PvP and PvE content for people of max level, especially since areas you have been to in the past will be different if you go back because of the DE system, as well as the fact DEs will be added and modified as the game goes on. It certainly compares favorably to popular multiplayer games that people play for months or years.
That may be true, but the fact of the matter is that the typical MMO player plays MMO's for years because of goals to meet which allow you to progress your character. Yes ArenaNet will add new content, but it will be (and has proven to be in the original game) not a large amount of content unless it is in a paid expansion. Other then seeing all the content there won't be anything to do for people who like character progression. People usually quit playing when they cannot advance characters further. (Something that happened in the original Guild Wars) Tournaments,ranking,ect are wonderful but only focus on a small minority of players compared to the amount of players who like "carrot on a stick" gameplay.
There is a flip side to this. If Guild Wars 2 proves to be a good MMO on it's own, it can bring new players into the genre. I just don't believe that a shift of attitude like this would happen so quickly in one game.
Well, "the typical MMO player" is the problem right there. Arenanet has been clear from the beginning that GW2 is not aimed at people happy with the status quo in MMORPGs. You look at things far, far too narrowly if you only take GW1 as en example, though it is still a popular game. I, for instance, didn't care for the combat mechanics in it (or the all the running I seemed to have to do in large zones). It also had other problems. GW2 has a dramtically different design and acting like it will copy GW1 is a mistaken way to look at things. Take Diablo 2, any good FPS, good RTS, or just any good multiplayer game. Tons of people play those for a year or more even without content updates. Why? Because the games are fun and the gameplay is fun. That's the sort of people GW2 is aimed at, as well as MMO players who AREN'T happy with how things are right now.
I have no problem with paying for expansion content if it is worthwhile. Most people wouldn't, I imagine. It's far, far cheaper and more agreeable than paying a monthly fee to get the less content at a higher price.
How would you expect people to change their minds on things? It can easily happen in just one game as it has happened in other areas with just one game before. Indeed, in gaming I'd say it is unusual for it to NOT happen within the span of life of one game. That game is popular, and then other people try to copy that popularity.
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I'm not sure what do you mean by that - sure, there is better gear (stats raise with levels), but as soon as you hit 80, progression stops. There is no gap (not even small one) between player who just obtained his lvl 80 gear and a fellow that has been on level 80 forever.
They have said there's a very tiny amount of progression at 80, but they don't intend on having anything more than that.
Anet's philosophy is clear in that matter - you will be able to get max stat items quickly after reaching level 80 - no tiny, prolonged progression after that. Of course, you won't get them instantly, so I suppose that's your tiny amount of progression at 80.
That's all I've been saying about it. I neve said it was prolonged.
If there truly is no prolonged progression of some sort once at max level, that would be really unfortunate. This would essentially mean it's time to retire your character and reroll. After having invested so much time and effort into building my character to that level, I'd like the game to give me an opportunity and a reason to use that fully built character (from a pve as well as a pvp perspective.)
Despite the vast quantities of awesomeness GW2 will undoubtedly have, and even despite my love of alts (there are 5 race/class combinations I know I will want to level fully in GW2,) this would be a huge negative. Anet strikes me as a company who understands how character progression is the driving force behind many players' desires to continue to play a given character. So I can't see them forsaking this vital component entirely.
I haven't read any concrete Anet blog or news article concerning max level progression where they say anything "clear" or absolute regarding this matter, however. Every time I see "end game" brought up, they dish out the obligatory ambiguous lines: ie. "We're not ready to reveal everything we have in store for max level players, but rest assured, you will have plenty to do
" or "Don't forget, this we work through a very iterative process. So everything is always subject to change. We're constantly seeking ways to imropve all areas of our game." If I've just missed it, I'd appreciate it if you could provide a link 
My understanding of Anet's philosophy is that they don't want to tie you to character/game with progression - they prefer to use content/fun, instead. This blogpost: http://www.arena.net/blog/progression-and-leveling-in-guild-wars-2 , describes their general approach (content instead of progression), and while it doesn't exclude possibility of endgame gear stat progression, there have been several interviews in which they confirmed there will be almost none of it (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing_Guild_Wars_2_Dynamic_Events , 1:07:45). This is something pretty fundamental to their design (and one of the philosophy basics GW2 inherits from first game), so I don't expect it to be subject of change.
The way I see it, there is no special reason needed to play my character other than the fact that I enjoy it. If you need additional motivation, you should probably look for another game. Or just play it once, without special investment into characters - should be worth the money anyway.
You will have titles/achievements+armor skins, and you cant grind (not force gring) this for months, even years.
If you don't have fun just playing your character and doing whatever content, then is it really that great to just do stuff to get little rewards in-game? That's a pretty horrible gaming experience if you think about it. If you enjoy the play and enjoy the content, then you don't need rewards for it.
Consider a Mario game. You don't get rewards and crap for doing a level. You just get the level done and it is fun because the level design and gameplay is fun. This applies just as much to RPGs as anything else.
Also, consider the fact that by not having power progression of large significance at max level, they also keep all content challenging and meaningful to do. Lower level areas scale you down, high level areas don't become a joke like they do in WoW-like MMOs. All content is fun and you don't faceroll it. That's good stuff.
And if the content isn't fun? Well, then you should stop playing the game. The last thing I'd want in a game is incentives to try to get you to keep doing something you don't really enjoy.
Mhh, 80 levels at approx 1.5~2 hours per level, dungeons, personal story and 1500 Dynamic Events should be able to give you something to do until the first expansion is released.
not really, lets assume the levelling is great fun and you spend 25 hours a week playing the game, at the speed you give you will hit max level in about 7 weeks, and then say another 8 weeks at max level content. So as people have said, at this point it is either start again or end game cycle. It will be a year and a half probably for next expansion. Dont forget, you are paying a sub at this point.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Year and a half? What do you base that on?
Paying a sub? *boggle*
His point is that the motivation to do the content is not some endless fight against gear stat inflation, you logon to enjoy the content and have the luxury if picking exactly what content you want to do when and for your own motives - no 'must do instance 1 for tier 1 so i can progress to tier 2 dungeon that goes on for ever. Also tier 1 does not become redundant because you have all tier 2 gear either. As he rightly points out GW1 solved all raiding stat inflation and raid grind issues, its a proven model that works very well and doesnt depreciate over time. Ask yourself, why do you want to dungeons?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
GW2 skeptics (I don't want to say haters, that's very childish) are known for trying to speculate that there will be so many expansions that it'll be far more than the initial box price that you're paying, thus you're "paying a sub". For one thing, I believe they stated they won't be releasing paid expansions, nor will they be using a subscription format. Maybe some people think it's too good to be true, or maybe they're not happy that their game is going to cost them even after they've bought it. They need to deal with it and stop all the misinformation about GW2's business plan that they know nothing about. Hell, it's in public view, but they still don't know the facts.
What do u mean endgame. Gw 2 doesnt have endgame its not a typical mmo. U dont have end game in gw 2 its reinventing the genre and end game is the first thign its getting rid of.
edit actually wrong game ignore lol, was involved in a swtor chat and got posts mixed up. GW2 game is the entire opposite, there is huge amounts of content that WILL easily last to next expansion.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The hell you say! GW2 is not innovative - after all, you still press buttons - and it's not quality because players aren't paying a subscription so that ANet can make more entertaining content (???). Get with the program, pal! GW2 suuuuucks.
Also, lol.
You're essentially talking about 2 distinct components of a game here: gameplay and character progression. When a game or part of a game is dominated by progression alone, we call this game or part "grindy." Your last paragraph essentially defines a grindy game. I agree, it does sound pretty un-fun. And yet, millions of players have participated in ridiculous grinds, that is, hours upon hours of pure, unfiltered, boring gameplay, solely in the name of acquiring that new item or ability or achievement or mount or whatever. Progression can be so compelling for some that it can actually cause players to suffer through hours of boredom just to experience the eventual positive effects. For this reason, I consider progression to be the addictive element to games. It's what keeps players playing.
On the other hand, you have games that feature immediate fun and interactive gameplay but little character progression. You listed Mario, which I think is apt. Many traditional platformers, action adventure games, sports games and first-person shooters are all about the pure engaging fun of pressing the buttons in a quick, reflexive manner. They can succeed because the gameplay itself is so mentally stimulating.
I would, however, totally disagree that any RPG has ever fit into this category. If there is one, I have never played it (which is certainly possible.) From 'catching 'em all' in Pokemon, to unlocking your ultimate limit breaks in the Final Fantasy games, these games are all about progression. Heck, DnD and MUDs featured progression as prominent features.
And now recently games from all genres have added progression to their formulas. Many FPSs feature character levels, stats, weapon upgrades, and ability unlocks. Sports games feature franchise modes. Even games like DDR and Rockband have you playing through challenges to unlock new tiers of content, earn money/points and spend them on new upgrades. I say this only to explain just how important this feeling of progression apparently is to so many players, and that game developers of every genre have picked up on it.
I agree. I'm absolutely not a fan of grinds. I don't want any huge chunks of the game to have just progression or just fun gameplay. I want all major parts of my RPG experience to have both, as there's no reason it can't. If progression is completely absent at max level and I want to do something in particular in the game, I'll likely be prone to switching to an alt, because at least he'll "get something out of it." And that really sucks because, like I said in my earlier post, I would like a reason to play my level 80 character; that's the character I will have had formed the strongest relationship with.
(NOTE: It seems this post has become more of a long-winded--I know no other way--philosophical rambling about the necessity of progression in games today, especially RPGs and MMOs than anything about GW2 specifically.)
As long as many of the titles, achievements, and armor/weapon skins are difficult to obtain so that they come to represent elite accomplishments, that would likely be enough to satiate my apetite for progression. I can see myself at least logging back on to my main first character again to continue to build up that character's legend. And of course my first character will probably be my go-to toon for WvWvW pvp for a while.
Well, I think you are acting like you can divorce progression from gameplay...and you really can't unless you remove the progression. You can't have progression without gameplay at all (unless you can pay for it).
I don't think you really appreciate what unending progression does to an MMO. It inherently ruins it. If you can continually build power, then bigger and bigger challenges have to be made for you. Older content becomes easy and not worth playing. Everyone else is forced to progress to use the new content and to be competitive in PvP. The game will revolve around progression and doing progression related tasks. Other sorts of gameplay will fall by the wayside, especially in terms of development since you have now trained everyone to want progression. Content and so forth will become dominated and adversely affected by this progression.
RPGs do NOT require progression in power at all. It's easiest to find examples in Pen and Paper RPGs of this. I played many campaigns that didn't have ANY progression in power, and only the story progressed. It was fun and engaging because roleplaying is fun. In fact, there are some D&D house rules that some use that sharply stop progression and people have fun with it. Similarly, a game can be fun without progression and you play it BECAUSE IT IS FUN.
If you feel like you MUST get some sort of new power carrot when you do something in an MMO, then GW2 will not be for you. At least not once you've gotten all the horizontal progression (there's a fair amount, from what I understand). Personally, I don't have that need. I have enjoyed games of many genres that had no progression. I've enjoyed some games less because the progression hurt it and rather wished it had no progression at all. I've played some story-based games that have no progression at all (though I can't remember names off the top of my head), and that's essentially an RPG when you are in the role of a character.
I'm pretty sure this is somewhere in the middle of this thread but even if it is I'll just say it again.
Guild Wars 2 Endgame = Skill Challenge Hunting, Trait Hunting, Crafting, Pvping, Dungeons and Dragons (Dynamic Events).
And there's also my personal favourite; BUILD MAKING!!! I spent hours doing that in GW1, I'm probably going to do the same here.
This is not a game.
I don't know what else to tell you except that they know power progression games very well, and that for a long time they have been unequivocal about the fact that they are not making a power progression game. At the very beginning (in the PC Gamer article I think) they left the option open and spoke about conisdering completely open ended power progression. There has definitely been no mention of that option that I have seen or heard since the first GamesCom showcase. All of E. Flannum's comments on the subject have been along the lines of "it'll be very easy to reach the power plateau".
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
Essentially GW 2 is going for more of a MMO being a world aspect than the progression aspect. Guild Wars 2 has no progression essentially, except skill collection. The ladder of which being seemingly easier to acquire then in the original game. Once you hit the maximum level there is no gear carrot on a stick style gameplay. All you have is PvP. (that of which will also not have progression that makes your character stronger) This is one of the reasons I don't believe GW 2 is going to be a huge hit, and that it will be more like the original game; A solid title that has a moderate amount of success, but no lasting value with a diminished active player base over time and subsequent expansions.
I just hope the gameplay and PvP is enough to keep me interested for a long time, but I doubt it. It will be worth the purchase price though, which may prove to be the biggest advantage this game has over it's competitors.
25 hours per week on average is quite a lot, a lot more then most people will be able to burn on a game. Maybe in a holiday but after that the available time per week will be a lot less, for most people, and leveling and content will last quite a bit. For those who do have 25 hours per week to burn, It is not reasonable to expect a game to provide content for 25 hours per week for months on row, or 1250 hours in a year and an alternate characters or games are where you'll have to look.
You have tournament PvP, WvWvW PvP, challenging dungeons, Dynamic Events that remain challenging because they adjust your level and gear doesn't make you overpowered many of which have large and challenging enemies, and general world exploration.
There's quite a bit of PvP and PvE content for people of max level, especially since areas you have been to in the past will be different if you go back because of the DE system, as well as the fact DEs will be added and modified as the game goes on. It certainly compares favorably to popular multiplayer games that people play for months or years.
That may be true, but the fact of the matter is that the typical MMO player plays MMO's for years because of goals to meet which allow you to progress your character. Yes ArenaNet will add new content, but it will be (and has proven to be in the original game) not a large amount of content unless it is in a paid expansion. Other then seeing all the content there won't be anything to do for people who like character progression. People usually quit playing when they cannot advance characters further. (Something that happened in the original Guild Wars) Tournaments,ranking,ect are wonderful but only focus on a small minority of players compared to the amount of players who like "carrot on a stick" gameplay.
There is a flip side to this. If Guild Wars 2 proves to be a good MMO on it's own, it can bring new players into the genre. I just don't believe that a shift of attitude like this would happen so quickly in one game.
Well, "the typical MMO player" is the problem right there. Arenanet has been clear from the beginning that GW2 is not aimed at people happy with the status quo in MMORPGs. You look at things far, far too narrowly if you only take GW1 as en example, though it is still a popular game. I, for instance, didn't care for the combat mechanics in it (or the all the running I seemed to have to do in large zones). It also had other problems. GW2 has a dramtically different design and acting like it will copy GW1 is a mistaken way to look at things. Take Diablo 2, any good FPS, good RTS, or just any good multiplayer game. Tons of people play those for a year or more even without content updates. Why? Because the games are fun and the gameplay is fun. That's the sort of people GW2 is aimed at, as well as MMO players who AREN'T happy with how things are right now.
I have no problem with paying for expansion content if it is worthwhile. Most people wouldn't, I imagine. It's far, far cheaper and more agreeable than paying a monthly fee to get the less content at a higher price.
How would you expect people to change their minds on things? It can easily happen in just one game as it has happened in other areas with just one game before. Indeed, in gaming I'd say it is unusual for it to NOT happen within the span of life of one game. That game is popular, and then other people try to copy that popularity.