I am sure there are psychologicallly proven facts in regards to addictive behaviors and I don't think my mind operates differently. Funny because I thought the discussion was GW2 end game and why people find it to their liking and not a discussion about addictive behavior. You claim and speak for all and you can throw in all kind of analogies to try to make your point but your point is flawed on the sole fact that you are speaking for many when you can only speak for yourself and what YOU NEED from a game to keep you interested.
Within a topic there are usually multiple discussions going on. I only speak for humans in general when I talk about the human psyche and how addiction works with video games. The only part I stated what I thought about something was when I said that in my opinion achievement/skin/title progression is boring for me.
I also noticed that when it is in regards to TOR, you like to claim that the devs know whats best for their game in regards to business model and keeping their community playing, yet when you pop into the GW2 section you claim it's the complete opposite. I'll give you an example whe you are arguing the cause for TOR and I'll leave you with your own words.
No where did I state that GW2's model is not right for their target audience. My argument was regarding people thinking video game addiction could be established solely through fun gameplay such as interesting combat systems when in reality even Guild Wars 2 will make use of skinner box mechanics with their token system. And that excerpt you quoted had nothing to do with TOR. It had to do with some people being more qualified to make an assessment about something than others. Meaning, a sport's commentator is more qualified to talk about a team's potential than a 5 year old girl.
As I have stated, these are psychologically proven facts as to why video games are addicting. If you think your human mind operates differently from the rest of our kind, then so be it.
There are some flaws in your attempts to lean on "psychologically proven facts" lecture about video games. First of all, you're not a pyschologist, you're not even opinionated. You tell people why they play games, and don't give any other reason than that they are looking for a progressive experience instead of just having fun. When you have gone to school for "video game psychology" and earned a degree, maybe then I'll believe you have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about instead of blanket stating using "video game psychology 101" when there are areas of actual psychology that we still haven't figured out or are second guessing.
Point is, psychology doesn't cover all the bases, as this thread has proven, and that goes double for you.
By the way, I've studied psychology. You might want to learn that individual human minds can, and do, work differently, based on personality, environment, and other criteria. Just a tip, doc. I mean, if all human minds worked alike, would there even be this argument?
Don't try to sound smarter than you are for the sake of your own beliefs on what makes a game "good".
There are some flaws in your attempts to lean on "psychologically proven facts" lecture about video games. First of all, you're not a pyschologist, you're not even opinionated. You tell people why they play games, and don't give any other reason than that they are looking for a progressive experience instead of just having fun. When you have gone to school for "video game psychology" and earned a degree, maybe then I'll believe you have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about instead of blanket stating using "video game psychology 101" when there are areas of actual psychology that we still haven't figured out or are second guessing.
Point is, psychology doesn't cover all the bases, as this thread has proven, and that goes double for you.
By the way, I've studied psychology. You might want to learn that individual human minds can, and do, work differently, based on personality, environment, and other criteria. Just a tip, doc. I mean, if all human minds worked alike, would there even be this argument?
Don't try to sound smarter than you are for the sake of your own beliefs on what makes a game "good".
You're not reading my posts correctly or something. I pointed out the psychologically proven reasons as to why people become addicted to video games. Playing games and being addicted to games are two very different things. You don't need a major in anything, all you have to do is read about experiments conducted by specialists in the area and their conclusions.
Within a topic there are usually multiple discussions going on. I only speak for humans in general when I talk about the human psyche and how addiction works with video games.
Here's a clue... Maybe you shouldn't. You never did tell me why games like Left 4 Dead 2 are played so much, yet have no vertical progression system whatsoever. I know a girl who's logged over 2600 hours in the game, with no loot to be found. Each level is the same every time, the only reason people play them again is because they have friends that play or because they want to practice to become better. Therefore, is cooking addictive? Is writing addictive? There's nothing addictive about it, we want to get better, so we keep doing it. It has nothing to do with what's being offered by the developers, but what we make of the game itself with our own minds. But at this point, I don't know, maybe you're just trolling.
There are some flaws in your attempts to lean on "psychologically proven facts" lecture about video games. First of all, you're not a pyschologist, you're not even opinionated. You tell people why they play games, and don't give any other reason than that they are looking for a progressive experience instead of just having fun. When you have gone to school for "video game psychology" and earned a degree, maybe then I'll believe you have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about instead of blanket stating using "video game psychology 101" when there are areas of actual psychology that we still haven't figured out or are second guessing.
Point is, psychology doesn't cover all the bases, as this thread has proven, and that goes double for you.
By the way, I've studied psychology. You might want to learn that individual human minds can, and do, work differently, based on personality, environment, and other criteria. Just a tip, doc. I mean, if all human minds worked alike, would there even be this argument?
Don't try to sound smarter than you are for the sake of your own beliefs on what makes a game "good".
You're not reading my posts correctly or something. I pointed out the psychologically proven reasons as to why ALL people become addicted to video games. Playing games and being addicted to games are two very different things. You don't need a major in anything, all you have to do is read about experiments conducted by specialists in the area and their conclusions.
Oh I've been reading your posts, but I've corrected you in red, because apparently, you haven't been.
As I have stated, these are psychologically proven facts as to why video games are addicting. If you think your human mind operates differently from the rest of our kind, then so be it.
Here's a clue... Maybe you shouldn't. You never did tell me why games like Left 4 Dead 2 are played so much, yet have no vertical progression system whatsoever. I know a girl who's logged over 2600 hours in the game, with no loot to be found. Each level is the same every time, the only reason people play them again is because they have friends that play or because they want to practice to become better. Therefore, is cooking addictive? Is writing addictive? There's nothing addictive about it, we want to get better, so we keep doing it. It has nothing to do with what's being offered by the developers, but what we make of the game itself with our own minds. But at this point, I don't know, maybe you're just trolling.
Wow bro you seriously are not reading my posts. "You have clearly misinterpreted what I said. I said that people are addicted to zombie mode or Spec Ops because they are trying to get past a level, get a better high score, or get an achievement. These are psychologically proven facts that games use to keep people playing."
L4D's Survival mode is no different from what I stated above. Remember, being addicted to a game and playing a game are two very different things. You have a friend that has logged 2600 hours in game because of other people? Good, I stated that already: "They will also use, like any online RPG, exploration and socialization to maintain its playerbase."
You're not reading my posts correctly or something. I pointed out the psychologically proven reasons as to why ALL people become addicted to video games. Playing games and being addicted to games are two very different things. You don't need a major in anything, all you have to do is read about experiments conducted by specialists in the area and their conclusions.
Oh I've been reading your posts, but I've corrected you in red, because apparently, you haven't been.
Here's a clue... Maybe you shouldn't. You never did tell me why games like Left 4 Dead 2 are played so much, yet have no vertical progression system whatsoever. I know a girl who's logged over 2600 hours in the game, with no loot to be found. Each level is the same every time, the only reason people play them again is because they have friends that play or because they want to practice to become better. Therefore, is cooking addictive? Is writing addictive? There's nothing addictive about it, we want to get better, so we keep doing it. It has nothing to do with what's being offered by the developers, but what we make of the game itself with our own minds. But at this point, I don't know, maybe you're just trolling.
Wow bro you seriously are not reading my posts. "You have clearly misinterpreted what I said. I said that people are addicted to zombie mode or Spec Ops because they are trying to get past a level, get a better high score, or get an achievement. These are psychologically proven facts that games use to keep people playing."
L4D's Survival mode is no different from what I stated above. Remember, being addicted to a game and playing a game are two very different things. You have a friend that has logged 2600 hours in game because of other people? Good, I stated that already: "They will also use, like any online RPG, exploration and socialization to maintain its playerbase."
I never said that, actually. You're using a general experience (ie: that some people log in to play Multiplayer modes) I mentioned briefly to prop up your point. Whether they played alone or with 3 other people, 2600 hours of mostly solo zombie killing is not indicative of any of the "proof" you've posted about what keeps people playing, only that they enjoy the game for what it is. Exploration? You know the levels after a few times through them. Socialization? I play L4D2 alone most of the time. I don't get anything at the end of the round, but a loading screen and some evidence that Rochelle is a damned kill-thief.
You've so far spoken for all gamers and why they play what they play and for how long, and you've stated that all human minds are so alike as not to have any other reason to keep playing than what you've listed as proof. As exceedingly condescending as this is to everyone but you, I don't condemn you for believing it, but I'm not going to take you seriously as you grasp for straws when people provide examples that don't fit your grind mentality. How many people played through Super Mario Bros. 3 dozens, even hundreds of times, and never once looked at their score?
I simply believe that the correct statement would be "These are psychologically proven facts that games use to keep some people playing."
edit: its not a skinner box, because the reward will always come after you "pull the lever" once, a skinner box is when the amount of pulls is a number the player does not know, thus keeping them pulling it till they eventually get the award.
This is actually false. The mice within one of the skinner box experiments knew that if they pulled X amount of times, they would be rewarded.
also like Ive stated before each "pull" is different, since after completing the story mode for the dungeon there are three different paths you can take through that dungeon, each with different objectives and goals to keep things interesting. So even the pulling of the lever in this case is interesting and apealing when doing a dungeon over.
Thing is: A.) Content is not endless so you will be repeating dungeons eventually and B.) You (I'm not saying you, Ablestron, specifically) will be doing dungeon runs regardless if you want to or not so that you can obtain tokens to get that super awesome new skin they just released. So yes, it most definitely is a skinner box.
ok your really starting to confuse something here. The kinner box had many different experaments but the first one was to create a basis for behavior. The first one was, evertime the mouce pulled the lever it got a treat. This wasnt to show addictive behavior in mice it was to prove that if a person or mouse new that they would be given a treat every time they pulled the lever they would take breaks from pulling the lever and only pull the lever when they wanted to; because pulling the lever equals one treat.
When refering to gameplay elements that equate to a skinner box mechanic, your not refering to this experament your refering to pretty much every experament after this one, because the first one can be generalized into any game mechanic. I swing sword, I do damage, I open chest I receive loot, ect. No the skinner box mechanics that are ment to be addictive are the ones that keep you on the lever for as long as possible until a treat is earned.
The first would be random drops so that the mouce would be on it constantly because it wouldnt know when the next treat apeared, the second would be puting a treat at the end of an increadibly long line of lever pulls. these are the two that are the most addictive in game design.
the dungeon in guild wars 2 has neither of these.
to combat your points A.) it does not matter if a dungeons content is limited because the amount of awards for each dungeon is limited as well (there is only 1 armor set per each and a few weapons; again not clear on the weapons) so the only reason you would go through it again after completing it (since your progression is not dependant on completing it several times) would be because a friend wanted help running it; thats not the games nature causing you to do that dungeon again, thats you helpin your friend out.
B.) what your saying here is that if a player wants the armor of a new dungeon, that they will be forcing themselves to go through that dungeon in order to get that award? the issue with this is your saying that the dungeon is a chore, which is a purely speculative thing to say, considering no one has seen inside a dungeon from guild wars 2 yet. Whos to say you cant enjoy the dungeon and then reap the awards you get at the end of it?
if the dungeon is fun and interesting then it wont be a skinner box,
1) because it only takes one run through the dungeon to get 1 reward
2) because there is one story version and three different paths after words to keep things interesting (and challenging, the three paths are harder than the story mode)
3) because a skinner box in a game refers to when a player does boring tasks in order to get something they want, and 1, and 2 prove that its not the case so long as dungeons are a fun experience.
the only way the dungeons will become a skinner box at this point is if they are boring and repetative. so far we can rule out repatition since the 3 different paths will keep things interesting. so the only way dungeons will become a bad addiction (skinner box) is if they are boring to do. I dont see that happening, but again we can only speculate on how fu nthey will be. I chose to speculate that they will be very fun and interesting.
now if you where to argue that loot is fun for many people and adding more dungeons with cool loot is fun and might cause some people to turn on Guild wars 2 to get it, I might agree with you on that. But, having cool loot in a game doesnt make it a skinner box mechanic, its how you obtain that loot that makes it a skinner box or not. So looking again at dungeons as an example, is it repetative? do you get the loot only if you repeat the same objective? is the content before you get the loot fun?
no you have choices, no you again have choices, we wont know for sure untill release but Im betting on it being freaking fan tastick.
the only way the dungeons will become a skinner box at this point is if they are boring and repetative. so far we can rule out repatition since the 3 different paths will keep things interesting. so the only way dungeons will become a bad addiction (skinner box) is if they are boring to do. I dont see that happening, but again we can only speculate on how fu nthey will be. I chose to speculate that they will be very fun and interesting.
Good point, I want to see the reaction of people who don't believe in a non-raid format when people continue to play GW2 dungeons after getting the loot from them because the battles are fun to them personally. Unlike WoW, where loot drops can take months to benefit your character, GW2 has bigger shoes to fill (and more honorably at that) by making the content engaging enough to keep playing it past the point of no reward.
the only way the dungeons will become a skinner box at this point is if they are boring and repetative. so far we can rule out repatition since the 3 different paths will keep things interesting. so the only way dungeons will become a bad addiction (skinner box) is if they are boring to do. I dont see that happening, but again we can only speculate on how fu nthey will be. I chose to speculate that they will be very fun and interesting.
Good point, I want to see the reaction of people who don't believe in a non-raid format when people continue to play GW2 dungeons after getting the loot from them because the battles are fun to them personally. Unlike WoW, where loot drops can take months to benefit your character, GW2 has bigger shoes to fill (and more honorably at that) by making the content engaging enough to keep playing it past the point of no reward.
I can't wait.
I find skyrim to be a good example of this, if they added a new dungeon even tho Im level 50 and have maxed out gear and skills, I would so jump on it, not becuase the loot is different or better, but because I had so much fun in the dungeons of skyrim that a new one would be intruiging enough for me to play through it.
They said before that the highest end content for pve will be the raised land of orr (which has the holy city before it fell to the ocean floor if your aware of the lore of the game). The interesting thing about the city of orr, is that we dont live there, so instead of trying to protect the city, we are trying to seige it.
Think of preogressively intense dynamic events of setting up camps along beach heads and protecting them, protecting supplies and advancing up the beaches till we get to cliffs, then attacking settlements of undead and dragon minions and claiming them as our own.
To make the experience longer I can see several boss fights against different generals of Zhaitans army and maybe even manning a seige engine to reach the top of a castle wall :000
this is purely speculative so take it with a grai nof salt. but I really hope they can impress me x)
A.) it does not matter if a dungeons content is limited because the amount of awards for each dungeon is limited as well (there is only 1 armor set per each and a few weapons; again not clear on the weapons) so the only reason you would go through it again after completing it (since your progression is not dependant on completing it several times) would be because a friend wanted help running it; thats not the games nature causing you to do that dungeon again, thats you helpin your friend out.
B.) what your saying here is that if a player wants the armor of a new dungeon, that they will be forcing themselves to go through that dungeon in order to get that award? the issue with this is your saying that the dungeon is a chore, which is a purely speculative thing to say, considering no one has seen inside a dungeon from guild wars 2 yet. Whos to say you cant enjoy the dungeon and then reap the awards you get at the end of it?
A.) So you're telling me that all the rewards from a dungeon can be obtained in a single run through all 3 branches?
B.) No, you misunderstood me. What I stated was that regardless if the dungeon was what you wanted to do or not, if you knew it dropped several cool items you desired, you would be compelled to run it to obtain the tokens for those items.
People were complaining that Swtor was too similar wow and now i see people complaining that guild wars doesn't follow the wowesque end game grind..makes me laugh.
People were complaining that Swtor was too similar wow and now i see people complaining that guild wars doesn't follow the wowesque end game grind..makes me laugh.
They were two different sets of people I hope! lol
I for one will never complain about a single game that is released in the future that has no need/greed raiding. Who needs the bickering really?
People were complaining that Swtor was too similar wow and now i see people complaining that guild wars doesn't follow the wowesque end game grind..makes me laugh.
They were two different sets of people I hope! lol
I for one will never complain about a single game that is released in the future that has no need/greed raiding. Who needs the bickering really?
i wouldn't be surprised if the same people who complained that Swtor was too much like wow are now moving on to guild wars 2 complaining that it has no end game raiding like every other mmo under the sun.
i wouldn't be surprised if the same people who complained that Swtor was too much like wow are now moving on to guild wars 2 complaining that it has no end game raiding like every other mmo under the sun.
Some people will always complain.
But there are also plenty of people that really have gotten turned off by the gear hamsterwheel. Even EQ had raiding and gear progression, but it was never as bad as it is now. 3 weeks of leveling up followed by 2 years of grinding raid gear and repeat when the expansion comes out.
So for some people this will be a welcome experience.
A.) it does not matter if a dungeons content is limited because the amount of awards for each dungeon is limited as well (there is only 1 armor set per each and a few weapons; again not clear on the weapons) so the only reason you would go through it again after completing it (since your progression is not dependant on completing it several times) would be because a friend wanted help running it; thats not the games nature causing you to do that dungeon again, thats you helpin your friend out.
B.) what your saying here is that if a player wants the armor of a new dungeon, that they will be forcing themselves to go through that dungeon in order to get that award? the issue with this is your saying that the dungeon is a chore, which is a purely speculative thing to say, considering no one has seen inside a dungeon from guild wars 2 yet. Whos to say you cant enjoy the dungeon and then reap the awards you get at the end of it?
A.) So you're telling me that all the rewards from a dungeon can be obtained in a single run through all 3 branches?
B.) No, you misunderstood me. What I stated was that regardless if the dungeon was what you wanted to do or not, if you knew it dropped several cool items you desired, you would be compelled to run it to obtain the tokens for those items.
for A I found this quote of the Guild wars 2 wiki:
"Explorable mode is unlocked after the story mode has been completed. The same area is reopened to the player with a story typically related to the aftermath of the events in story mode. The explorable dungeon story is told with fewer cutscenes and little exposition, and it is no longer directly related to Destiny's Edge. The player is presented with different play-through options, of which there are usually three to choose from. The party votes on the option they will take through the dungeon and the majority determines the dungeon version seen. The explorable mode dungeon is designed to be repeated, with player actions and decisions determining the occurrence of hidden or random events along with the related changes to the dungeon. This mode requires significantly more co-ordination between team members and so is more difficult than story mode."
"Each dungeon has its own unique weapon and armor set modeled according to the theme of the dungeon. These items are no more powerful than items which can be gained doing other activities in-game. Completing a dungeon awards a token. A story mode token can be traded for a weapon from the dungeon set, while an explorable mode token can be traded for armor from the dungeon set."
so no you cant abotain everything by completing the three paths once. there are 6 armor peices in total so you would do each of the paths twice to obtain the full set. but according to the wiki the paths are designed to be different depending on choices you make along them, so just because you chose the same path doesnt mean you will be experiencing the exact same thing as you did previously. I can see how they would do this, but wether or not this will be implamented well is purely speculative so we'll just have to wait and see.
For B, you might feel compelled to complete a dungeon if you hear the skins are cool, but you still cannot consider this an example of a skinner box. Just because a player feels desire to collect an item, doesnt mean that desire is being exploited through the use of a skinner box mechanic by the developers. What would arena net gain by making content with cool rewards but boring repetative gameplay anyway? The point about their B2P style is that you CAN put the game down when you want, not to say its going to be boring and thats why you'll put it down, it means you can chose when and how long to play before you stop, whithout feeling the need to continue, not due to it being so fun your compelled to but because your subscription is draining you bank and you feel compelled to have something to show for it.
They dont want to make an experience is not by making the end game experience a skinner box (an endless progression of collecting items for the sake of keeping your sub up) they want to make it something enjoyable that you can pick up whenever you choose without feeling guilty about it, and that that experience would be good enough to justify you buying an expansion or getting some cosmetics from the cash shop.
A very interesting approach indeed. Branching off here, if the process to obtain these item skins is relatively grindless and straightfoward, is there a way to make your character stand out from other characters in terms of looks that convey power? Meaning, will there be certain weapons/armors that people see and think, "Wow, that guy is a badass to have that armor."? Of course, dungeon difficulties factor in, and the more difficult the dungeon, the more sought-after the skins related to that dungeon become. It's inevitable really, the harder it is to obtain something the more public appeal it possesses. However, considering so few runs are needed to obtain such items, I don't believe dungeon difficulty would be enough to make these "badasses" stand out as you would you see a far larger amount of people with those skins.
A very interesting approach indeed. Branching off here, if the process to obtain these item skins is relatively grindless and straightfoward, is there a way to make your character stand out from other characters in terms of looks that convey power? Meaning, will there be certain weapons/armors that people see and think, "Wow, that guy is a badass to have that armor."? Of course, dungeon difficulties factor in, and the more difficult the dungeon, the more sought-after the skins related to that dungeon become. It's inevitable really, the harder it is to obtain something the more public appeal it possesses. However, considering so few runs are needed to obtain such items, I don't believe dungeon difficulty would be enough to make these "badasses" stand out as you would you see a far larger amount of people with those skins.
The way I understand it, dungeons are that difficult, so there is a chance that rewards they provide will stand out in the crowd. And even if not, Anet can come up with some extreme challenges with rare skins as rewards - there is no need to resort to grind as "badassness" requirement, when they can go with skill, instead.
A very interesting approach indeed. Branching off here, if the process to obtain these item skins is relatively grindless and straightfoward, is there a way to make your character stand out from other characters in terms of looks that convey power? Meaning, will there be certain weapons/armors that people see and think, "Wow, that guy is a badass to have that armor."? Of course, dungeon difficulties factor in, and the more difficult the dungeon, the more sought-after the skins related to that dungeon become. It's inevitable really, the harder it is to obtain something the more public appeal it possesses. However, considering so few runs are needed to obtain such items, I don't believe dungeon difficulty would be enough to make these "badasses" stand out as you would you see a far larger amount of people with those skins.
It really comes down to player choice on their look, and I dont just mean when obtaining lvl 80 unique armor, theres also gonna be a huge amount of customization due to the transumtation stones which will be available in game through some means (probubly on the spendy side) as well as in the cash shop for a fair price. these stones will allow you to customize your look by taking the stats of one item and puting them on another item.
So for instance if you wanted to be a beggar theif, you could take beggar robes that youve found and transmute the stats of top lvl 80 gear you have onto those robes. and do the same with the other peices.
or if you wanted to transmute the stats you have on your best stated mace onto say one made of coral with a glowy bit in the center you could do that.
What this allows is you can completely customize your look, which in a way might impress people jsut as much as the dungeon armor, and at the sam time give more variety to how players look at lvl 80 so that the people who wear the lvl 80 dungeon gear dont feel like there wearing isnt very unique
Comments
There are some flaws in your attempts to lean on "psychologically proven facts" lecture about video games. First of all, you're not a pyschologist, you're not even opinionated. You tell people why they play games, and don't give any other reason than that they are looking for a progressive experience instead of just having fun. When you have gone to school for "video game psychology" and earned a degree, maybe then I'll believe you have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about instead of blanket stating using "video game psychology 101" when there are areas of actual psychology that we still haven't figured out or are second guessing.
Point is, psychology doesn't cover all the bases, as this thread has proven, and that goes double for you.
By the way, I've studied psychology. You might want to learn that individual human minds can, and do, work differently, based on personality, environment, and other criteria. Just a tip, doc. I mean, if all human minds worked alike, would there even be this argument?
Don't try to sound smarter than you are for the sake of your own beliefs on what makes a game "good".
You're not reading my posts correctly or something. I pointed out the psychologically proven reasons as to why people become addicted to video games. Playing games and being addicted to games are two very different things. You don't need a major in anything, all you have to do is read about experiments conducted by specialists in the area and their conclusions.
Here's a clue... Maybe you shouldn't. You never did tell me why games like Left 4 Dead 2 are played so much, yet have no vertical progression system whatsoever. I know a girl who's logged over 2600 hours in the game, with no loot to be found. Each level is the same every time, the only reason people play them again is because they have friends that play or because they want to practice to become better. Therefore, is cooking addictive? Is writing addictive? There's nothing addictive about it, we want to get better, so we keep doing it. It has nothing to do with what's being offered by the developers, but what we make of the game itself with our own minds. But at this point, I don't know, maybe you're just trolling.
Oh I've been reading your posts, but I've corrected you in red, because apparently, you haven't been.
Operant Conditioning
Wow bro you seriously are not reading my posts. "You have clearly misinterpreted what I said. I said that people are addicted to zombie mode or Spec Ops because they are trying to get past a level, get a better high score, or get an achievement. These are psychologically proven facts that games use to keep people playing."
L4D's Survival mode is no different from what I stated above. Remember, being addicted to a game and playing a game are two very different things. You have a friend that has logged 2600 hours in game because of other people? Good, I stated that already: "They will also use, like any online RPG, exploration and socialization to maintain its playerbase."
Sorry, you lost me. Please explain.
I never said that, actually. You're using a general experience (ie: that some people log in to play Multiplayer modes) I mentioned briefly to prop up your point. Whether they played alone or with 3 other people, 2600 hours of mostly solo zombie killing is not indicative of any of the "proof" you've posted about what keeps people playing, only that they enjoy the game for what it is. Exploration? You know the levels after a few times through them. Socialization? I play L4D2 alone most of the time. I don't get anything at the end of the round, but a loading screen and some evidence that Rochelle is a damned kill-thief.
You've so far spoken for all gamers and why they play what they play and for how long, and you've stated that all human minds are so alike as not to have any other reason to keep playing than what you've listed as proof. As exceedingly condescending as this is to everyone but you, I don't condemn you for believing it, but I'm not going to take you seriously as you grasp for straws when people provide examples that don't fit your grind mentality. How many people played through Super Mario Bros. 3 dozens, even hundreds of times, and never once looked at their score?
I simply believe that the correct statement would be "These are psychologically proven facts that games use to keep some people playing."
ok your really starting to confuse something here. The kinner box had many different experaments but the first one was to create a basis for behavior. The first one was, evertime the mouce pulled the lever it got a treat. This wasnt to show addictive behavior in mice it was to prove that if a person or mouse new that they would be given a treat every time they pulled the lever they would take breaks from pulling the lever and only pull the lever when they wanted to; because pulling the lever equals one treat.
When refering to gameplay elements that equate to a skinner box mechanic, your not refering to this experament your refering to pretty much every experament after this one, because the first one can be generalized into any game mechanic. I swing sword, I do damage, I open chest I receive loot, ect. No the skinner box mechanics that are ment to be addictive are the ones that keep you on the lever for as long as possible until a treat is earned.
The first would be random drops so that the mouce would be on it constantly because it wouldnt know when the next treat apeared, the second would be puting a treat at the end of an increadibly long line of lever pulls. these are the two that are the most addictive in game design.
the dungeon in guild wars 2 has neither of these.
to combat your points A.) it does not matter if a dungeons content is limited because the amount of awards for each dungeon is limited as well (there is only 1 armor set per each and a few weapons; again not clear on the weapons) so the only reason you would go through it again after completing it (since your progression is not dependant on completing it several times) would be because a friend wanted help running it; thats not the games nature causing you to do that dungeon again, thats you helpin your friend out.
B.) what your saying here is that if a player wants the armor of a new dungeon, that they will be forcing themselves to go through that dungeon in order to get that award? the issue with this is your saying that the dungeon is a chore, which is a purely speculative thing to say, considering no one has seen inside a dungeon from guild wars 2 yet. Whos to say you cant enjoy the dungeon and then reap the awards you get at the end of it?
if the dungeon is fun and interesting then it wont be a skinner box,
1) because it only takes one run through the dungeon to get 1 reward
2) because there is one story version and three different paths after words to keep things interesting (and challenging, the three paths are harder than the story mode)
3) because a skinner box in a game refers to when a player does boring tasks in order to get something they want, and 1, and 2 prove that its not the case so long as dungeons are a fun experience.
the only way the dungeons will become a skinner box at this point is if they are boring and repetative. so far we can rule out repatition since the 3 different paths will keep things interesting. so the only way dungeons will become a bad addiction (skinner box) is if they are boring to do. I dont see that happening, but again we can only speculate on how fu nthey will be. I chose to speculate that they will be very fun and interesting.
now if you where to argue that loot is fun for many people and adding more dungeons with cool loot is fun and might cause some people to turn on Guild wars 2 to get it, I might agree with you on that. But, having cool loot in a game doesnt make it a skinner box mechanic, its how you obtain that loot that makes it a skinner box or not. So looking again at dungeons as an example, is it repetative? do you get the loot only if you repeat the same objective? is the content before you get the loot fun?
no you have choices, no you again have choices, we wont know for sure untill release but Im betting on it being freaking fan tastick.
Good point, I want to see the reaction of people who don't believe in a non-raid format when people continue to play GW2 dungeons after getting the loot from them because the battles are fun to them personally. Unlike WoW, where loot drops can take months to benefit your character, GW2 has bigger shoes to fill (and more honorably at that) by making the content engaging enough to keep playing it past the point of no reward.
I can't wait.
http://www.video-game-addiction.org/what-makes-games-addictive.html
Yeah, and my example isn't there. Go figure. Well at least it means I'm not addicted. Hooray!
I find skyrim to be a good example of this, if they added a new dungeon even tho Im level 50 and have maxed out gear and skills, I would so jump on it, not becuase the loot is different or better, but because I had so much fun in the dungeons of skyrim that a new one would be intruiging enough for me to play through it.
They said before that the highest end content for pve will be the raised land of orr (which has the holy city before it fell to the ocean floor if your aware of the lore of the game). The interesting thing about the city of orr, is that we dont live there, so instead of trying to protect the city, we are trying to seige it.
Think of preogressively intense dynamic events of setting up camps along beach heads and protecting them, protecting supplies and advancing up the beaches till we get to cliffs, then attacking settlements of undead and dragon minions and claiming them as our own.
To make the experience longer I can see several boss fights against different generals of Zhaitans army and maybe even manning a seige engine to reach the top of a castle wall :000
this is purely speculative so take it with a grai nof salt. but I really hope they can impress me x)
That's what I have been saying all along. Playing a game and being addicted to a game are two very different things.
A.) So you're telling me that all the rewards from a dungeon can be obtained in a single run through all 3 branches?
B.) No, you misunderstood me. What I stated was that regardless if the dungeon was what you wanted to do or not, if you knew it dropped several cool items you desired, you would be compelled to run it to obtain the tokens for those items.
People were complaining that Swtor was too similar wow and now i see people complaining that guild wars doesn't follow the wowesque end game grind..makes me laugh.
They were two different sets of people I hope! lol
I for one will never complain about a single game that is released in the future that has no need/greed raiding. Who needs the bickering really?
i wouldn't be surprised if the same people who complained that Swtor was too much like wow are now moving on to guild wars 2 complaining that it has no end game raiding like every other mmo under the sun.
If it's not like wow then its not an mmo is what the majority of players think. heaven forbid a dev team do something different.
Some people will always complain.
But there are also plenty of people that really have gotten turned off by the gear hamsterwheel. Even EQ had raiding and gear progression, but it was never as bad as it is now. 3 weeks of leveling up followed by 2 years of grinding raid gear and repeat when the expansion comes out.
So for some people this will be a welcome experience.
for A I found this quote of the Guild wars 2 wiki:
"Explorable mode is unlocked after the story mode has been completed. The same area is reopened to the player with a story typically related to the aftermath of the events in story mode. The explorable dungeon story is told with fewer cutscenes and little exposition, and it is no longer directly related to Destiny's Edge. The player is presented with different play-through options, of which there are usually three to choose from. The party votes on the option they will take through the dungeon and the majority determines the dungeon version seen. The explorable mode dungeon is designed to be repeated, with player actions and decisions determining the occurrence of hidden or random events along with the related changes to the dungeon. This mode requires significantly more co-ordination between team members and so is more difficult than story mode."
"Each dungeon has its own unique weapon and armor set modeled according to the theme of the dungeon. These items are no more powerful than items which can be gained doing other activities in-game. Completing a dungeon awards a token. A story mode token can be traded for a weapon from the dungeon set, while an explorable mode token can be traded for armor from the dungeon set."
heres the link if ya want: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeons
so no you cant abotain everything by completing the three paths once. there are 6 armor peices in total so you would do each of the paths twice to obtain the full set. but according to the wiki the paths are designed to be different depending on choices you make along them, so just because you chose the same path doesnt mean you will be experiencing the exact same thing as you did previously. I can see how they would do this, but wether or not this will be implamented well is purely speculative so we'll just have to wait and see.
For B, you might feel compelled to complete a dungeon if you hear the skins are cool, but you still cannot consider this an example of a skinner box. Just because a player feels desire to collect an item, doesnt mean that desire is being exploited through the use of a skinner box mechanic by the developers. What would arena net gain by making content with cool rewards but boring repetative gameplay anyway? The point about their B2P style is that you CAN put the game down when you want, not to say its going to be boring and thats why you'll put it down, it means you can chose when and how long to play before you stop, whithout feeling the need to continue, not due to it being so fun your compelled to but because your subscription is draining you bank and you feel compelled to have something to show for it.
They dont want to make an experience is not by making the end game experience a skinner box (an endless progression of collecting items for the sake of keeping your sub up) they want to make it something enjoyable that you can pick up whenever you choose without feeling guilty about it, and that that experience would be good enough to justify you buying an expansion or getting some cosmetics from the cash shop.
A very interesting approach indeed. Branching off here, if the process to obtain these item skins is relatively grindless and straightfoward, is there a way to make your character stand out from other characters in terms of looks that convey power? Meaning, will there be certain weapons/armors that people see and think, "Wow, that guy is a badass to have that armor."? Of course, dungeon difficulties factor in, and the more difficult the dungeon, the more sought-after the skins related to that dungeon become. It's inevitable really, the harder it is to obtain something the more public appeal it possesses. However, considering so few runs are needed to obtain such items, I don't believe dungeon difficulty would be enough to make these "badasses" stand out as you would you see a far larger amount of people with those skins.
The way I understand it, dungeons are that difficult, so there is a chance that rewards they provide will stand out in the crowd. And even if not, Anet can come up with some extreme challenges with rare skins as rewards - there is no need to resort to grind as "badassness" requirement, when they can go with skill, instead.
It really comes down to player choice on their look, and I dont just mean when obtaining lvl 80 unique armor, theres also gonna be a huge amount of customization due to the transumtation stones which will be available in game through some means (probubly on the spendy side) as well as in the cash shop for a fair price. these stones will allow you to customize your look by taking the stats of one item and puting them on another item.
So for instance if you wanted to be a beggar theif, you could take beggar robes that youve found and transmute the stats of top lvl 80 gear you have onto those robes. and do the same with the other peices.
or if you wanted to transmute the stats you have on your best stated mace onto say one made of coral with a glowy bit in the center you could do that.
What this allows is you can completely customize your look, which in a way might impress people jsut as much as the dungeon armor, and at the sam time give more variety to how players look at lvl 80 so that the people who wear the lvl 80 dungeon gear dont feel like there wearing isnt very unique