GW2 will b the greatest game of all time because it has no endgame gear progression=FACT
it will be so coool and rewrding running dungeons for funny hats lulz and then doing quests for spiky armers WOW so cool cuz GW2 is all about skeels not gear! Nobody likes gear progressions in MMO's or RPG's just look at most RG's and MMO's! no gear progression there derp.
all you fools saying GW2 wont be the most successful game of all time sure will have egg on their face when 30k people are playing GW2 by 2013!
*sigh* There are plenty of mindless gear grinding games for people like you out there already. This game is not for you.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
A very interesting approach indeed. Branching off here, if the process to obtain these item skins is relatively grindless and straightfoward, is there a way to make your character stand out from other characters in terms of looks that convey power? Meaning, will there be certain weapons/armors that people see and think, "Wow, that guy is a badass to have that armor."? Of course, dungeon difficulties factor in, and the more difficult the dungeon, the more sought-after the skins related to that dungeon become. It's inevitable really, the harder it is to obtain something the more public appeal it possesses. However, considering so few runs are needed to obtain such items, I don't believe dungeon difficulty would be enough to make these "badasses" stand out as you would you see a far larger amount of people with those skins.
The way I understand it, dungeons are that difficult, so there is a chance that rewards they provide will stand out in the crowd. And even if not, Anet can come up with some extreme challenges with rare skins as rewards - there is no need to resort to grind as "badassness" requirement, when they can go with skill, instead.
Not only will some of the later dungeons be difficult (If you haven't played the first game, some people even complained that those dungeons were 'too hard'), but if you've ever played some of the MMOs that focus more on customization than epic stats, you'll get kind of a similar feel here. Getting any piece of gear will be tough enough to take effort, but not so difficult that you are grinding to get it. However, if you want to get multiple gear of the harder sets, that will take longer, and if you want to mix / match, have multiple different types of armor, that will take even more time.
Because of this, it does take up time, but it's not like a traditional timesink, as it doesn't force you to plow through content you may not like to stay competitive. It's entirely up to you as to what you want to focus on at end game, and you can still compete with other players even if you aren't an epic raider.
I'm not going to bother to quote all the stuff I've been seeing (Though I still maintain that Czechguy and Stealthbr are suffering from the problem where they believe that all game design that doesn't specifically cater to them is invalid game design and therefore must fail...)...
... but real quick, I'm going to helpfully point out the difference between grinding for power and grinding for cosmetic things.
The former is dangerous game design, because it messes with balance. Either you tune challenges for somebody who is NOT powered up, in which case somebody who is powered up can trivialize content, or you tune challenges for somebody who is powered up, in which case the grind for power becomes mandatory, rather than optional.
Witness tiered end-game gear in games like WoW. You can't actually DO most of the stuff in new expansions, until you spend a lot of time repeating certain content. In order to get to later raids, you must do earlier raids MULTIPLE times. Not 'until you're good enough to beat it in skill', but 'until you're lucky enough to get a random drop that improves your numbers. A drop which we will make random and uncommon, because we'd like you to run this as long as possible to stretch out game time'
If you're grinding for titles/achievements, whatever, you're only doing it because you WANT to, because you've set yourself a goal to achieve.
If you're grinding for the next level of power that unlocks further content, you're doing it because you HAVE to, because otherwise parts of the game are locked away from you.
... and some people like it that way, but don't try and make the (false) argument that cosmetic grind and power grind are completely conflatable and that there is, in essence, no difference between the two other than that power grind is guaranteed to be more fun.
People actually care about how badass they look in town? lol The fact that you can transmute your favorite low level armor looks along with rare high-end pieces onto your maxed out character sounds a lot more interesting to me than just wearing the same tier gear everyone else is wearing. That, along with the dye system, will assure that not many people will look identical. I honestly don't see the problem; kudos to ANet for improving on Aion's skinning system.
People actually care about how badass they look in town? lol The fact that you can transmute your favorite low level armor looks along with rare high-end pieces onto your maxed out character sounds a lot more interesting to me than just wearing the same tier gear everyone else is wearing. That, along with the dye system, will assure that not many people will look identical. I honestly don't see the problem; kudos to ANet for improving on Aion's skinning system.
the only way the dungeons will become a skinner box at this point is if they are boring and repetative. so far we can rule out repatition since the 3 different paths will keep things interesting. so the only way dungeons will become a bad addiction (skinner box) is if they are boring to do. I dont see that happening, but again we can only speculate on how fu nthey will be. I chose to speculate that they will be very fun and interesting.
Good point, I want to see the reaction of people who don't believe in a non-raid format when people continue to play GW2 dungeons after getting the loot from them because the battles are fun to them personally. Unlike WoW, where loot drops can take months to benefit your character, GW2 has bigger shoes to fill (and more honorably at that) by making the content engaging enough to keep playing it past the point of no reward.
I can't wait.
I find skyrim to be a good example of this, if they added a new dungeon even tho Im level 50 and have maxed out gear and skills, I would so jump on it, not becuase the loot is different or better, but because I had so much fun in the dungeons of skyrim that a new one would be intruiging enough for me to play through it.
See, here I differ. While I've absolutely loved my time in Skyrim--exploration, aesthetics, story, combat, crafting, progression and all--I found that once I got my enchanting and smithing to 100, I completely lost interest in the game. After having played for 100+ hours over the first 2 weeks of its release, I haven't played it in about 10 days. I believe this is for 2 reasons: 1) combat is now completely trivial. There is nothing that can kill me on the hardest difficulty, which has made combat really really boring. 2) There is no more progression to look forward to. I feel like I actually need my character to become weaker to make the game interesting again. Of course, I could intentionally do this, but that would obviously completely go against the thrill and joy I derive out of working to improve my character. While I was once enthralled with the Perk system, I now don't even look forward to any new perks, even the level 100 perks, because I simply cannot become any more invincible. It's been frustrating to say the least.
What to take away from this? For me personally, the story, exploration, beautiful environments, and the simple joy of dungeon crawling alone are not enough to continue to engage me for a length of time. They're important to be sure. I would equally have a difficult time continuing the game if any of those features weren't present either. Regardless, this has definitely made me aware of just how important progression and combat difficulty are to me.
While I tend to agree with Stealth on pretty much all of his points, I do think he (as well as many others, and even myself sometimes) tends to fall into the trap of believing his own perspective, even if validated by virtually every friend and acquantance he knows, is everyone's perspective, or even the majority's perspective for that matter. On certain aspects of this particular discussion, I think we have to just chalk it up to personal preferences.
See, here I differ. While I've absolutely loved my time in Skyrim--exploration, aesthetics, story, combat, crafting, progression and all--I found that once I got my enchanting and smithing to 100, I completely lost interest in the game. After having played for 100+ hours over the first 2 weeks of its release, I haven't played it in about 10 days. I believe this is for 2 reasons: 1) combat is now completely trivial. There is nothing that can kill me on the hardest difficulty, which has made combat really really boring. 2) There is no more progression to look forward to. I feel like I actually need my character to become weaker to make the game interesting again. Of course, I could intentionally do this, but that would obviously completely go against the thrill and joy I derive out of working to improve my character. While I was once enthralled with the Perk system, I now don't even look forward to any new perks, even the level 100 perks, because I simply cannot become any more invincible. It's been frustrating to say the least.
What to take away from this? For me personally, the story, exploration, beautiful environments, and the simple joy of dungeon crawling alone are not enough to continue to engage me for a length of time. They're important to be sure. I would equally have a difficult time continuing the game if any of those features weren't present either. Regardless, this has definitely made me aware of just how important progression and combat difficulty are to me.
While I tend to agree with Stealth on pretty much all of his points, I do think he (as well as many others, and even myself sometimes) tends to fall into the trap of believing his own perspective, even if validated by virtually every friend and acquantance he knows, is everyone's perspective, or even the majority's perspective for that matter. On certain aspects of this particular discussion, I think we have to just chalk it up to personal preferences.
That sounds like a problem with Skyrim losing all challenge after you get to a certain point. If the content was still difficult and challenging with things maxed out, would you care if the only rewards were cosmetic (say loot so you can buy more houses and so on and so forth)? I get bored of a game if I become basically invicible too (after enjoying it for a little bit). GW2 doesn't aim to make things trivial at max level, so at least half of your worries are solved.
If you absolutely HAVE to have progression, then GW2 just won't be for you. It's that simple. It's for people that don't like being forced to do the same content over and over and over again that games like WoW force upon people.
... It's for people that don't like being forced to do the same content over and over and over again that games like WoW force upon people.
I think that generalization will be proven incorrect, though it seems easy to make now. I think people like to have fun. That's my generalization. If GW2 provides fun at max level, I think people who were dialed into progression games like WoW will at some point wonder why they spent all that time in raids. And if they take a moment to think, I think they will come to the simple realization that, other than pvp, raiding was the only remotely fun thing to do at max level.
edit: any by "incorrect", I think I mean "incomplete" or "insufficient"
Charr: Outta my way. Human: What's your problem? Charr: Your thin skin.
the only way the dungeons will become a skinner box at this point is if they are boring and repetative. so far we can rule out repatition since the 3 different paths will keep things interesting. so the only way dungeons will become a bad addiction (skinner box) is if they are boring to do. I dont see that happening, but again we can only speculate on how fu nthey will be. I chose to speculate that they will be very fun and interesting.
Good point, I want to see the reaction of people who don't believe in a non-raid format when people continue to play GW2 dungeons after getting the loot from them because the battles are fun to them personally. Unlike WoW, where loot drops can take months to benefit your character, GW2 has bigger shoes to fill (and more honorably at that) by making the content engaging enough to keep playing it past the point of no reward.
I can't wait.
I find skyrim to be a good example of this, if they added a new dungeon even tho Im level 50 and have maxed out gear and skills, I would so jump on it, not becuase the loot is different or better, but because I had so much fun in the dungeons of skyrim that a new one would be intruiging enough for me to play through it.
See, here I differ. While I've absolutely loved my time in Skyrim--exploration, aesthetics, story, combat, crafting, progression and all--I found that once I got my enchanting and smithing to 100, I completely lost interest in the game. After having played for 100+ hours over the first 2 weeks of its release, I haven't played it in about 10 days. I believe this is for 2 reasons: 1) combat is now completely trivial. There is nothing that can kill me on the hardest difficulty, which has made combat really really boring. 2) There is no more progression to look forward to. I feel like I actually need my character to become weaker to make the game interesting again. Of course, I could intentionally do this, but that would obviously completely go against the thrill and joy I derive out of working to improve my character. While I was once enthralled with the Perk system, I now don't even look forward to any new perks, even the level 100 perks, because I simply cannot become any more invincible. It's been frustrating to say the least.
What to take away from this? For me personally, the story, exploration, beautiful environments, and the simple joy of dungeon crawling alone are not enough to continue to engage me for a length of time. They're important to be sure. I would equally have a difficult time continuing the game if any of those features weren't present either. Regardless, this has definitely made me aware of just how important progression and combat difficulty are to me.
While I tend to agree with Stealth on pretty much all of his points, I do think he (as well as many others, and even myself sometimes) tends to fall into the trap of believing his own perspective, even if validated by virtually every friend and acquantance he knows, is everyone's perspective, or even the majority's perspective for that matter. On certain aspects of this particular discussion, I think we have to just chalk it up to personal preferences.
I play a rogue whos heavily invested in dual weilding swords and wearing light armor, so while I kill things very fast, I only have 200 hp at level 48 so things will kill me just as quickly if I dont use my abilities and skills afectively.
And it wasnt really the combat difficulty in its self that made dungeons cool to me, it was how they where designed astheticly and the story that gets told through each one that gets me excited.
it would definately be worth it I think to reroll a character and tyr the game form a different perspective if thats osmething your willing to do, definately do it
When it comes to dungeons in guild wars 2, sicne the diffictuly of a dungeon will be high no matter the level since each has a minimum and maximum level cap to them (and will even sidekick you down to the max if your too high lvl) so I don see combat being to easy becoming a problem. So if they can keep the story and asthetics interesting while retaining a hard difficulty they will have me sold.
That sounds like a problem with Skyrim losing all challenge after you get to a certain point. If the content was still difficult and challenging with things maxed out, would you care if the only rewards were cosmetic (say loot so you can buy more houses and so on and so forth)? I get bored of a game if I become basically invicible too (after enjoying it for a little bit). GW2 doesn't aim to make things trivial at max level, so at least half of your worries are solved.
If you absolutely HAVE to have progression, then GW2 just won't be for you. It's that simple. It's for people that don't like being forced to do the same content over and over and over again that games like WoW force upon people.
If the combat was still semi-challenging, I'd be happy to play through the rest of the main storyline (very little of which I've actually touched so far) just to see what happens. At least it would still be semi-fun to go through it. But as it stands at the moment, I have to suffer through a lot of really boring gameplay to get to the story elements. It's like I'd be "grinding" to earn story as my reward instead of character progression. I do still intend to finish the main plot; I'm just a little disheartened at the moment.
I had also previously wanted to reroll a 3rd character to play a full mage class, but armed with the knowledge that all progression actually ultimately leads to an undesirable outcome really puts a damper on any new playthrough for me. And that's despite the fact that combat will undoubtedly be fairly challenging and fun for a good while before I eventually reach the final progression plateau. So yeah, progression alone is definitely of some pretty significant importance to me.
That said, as many others have pointed out in this thread, GW2 won't be devoid of progression. There will be as much as any other MMO during the leveling process, and at least a little once at max level (skins, titles, achievements, extra skill challenges for whichever skills you didn't bother going after while leveling.) Factor in hard mode dungeons and WvWvW pvp, and I'll have a reason to log onto my main, if not quite as frequently as most other MMOs. I'm also an altoholic, and I already know of 5 race/class combinations I wish to level to 80. So even without the continual end game progression push, I'm certain I'll be able to get a LOT of enjoyment out of the game.
As such, the "well GW2 probably just isn't for you" comments are getting a little annoying. I'm fairly sure I'm going to have a blast in GW2, even if I do end up playing devil's advocate by critiquing various aspects of the game from time to time.
GW2 doesn't aim to make things trivial at max level, so at least half of your worries are solved.
I like this quote. It's how a lot of people felt about GW1. Those games could be really hard, even with the highest level gear available. You never walked into most of the dungeons in EotN and coasted through by the seat of your stats. WoW's raids get boring even in their own expansions, but the older raids have been ruined because 85's can just take new players through so they don't have to work to get a group and actually play the game. I don't even know why it's called progression, it actually takes the games a step back, but boy does it feel like you're winning something special when you're doing it, and to some people, apparently, that's all that matters.
I read this line from "everything we know about GW2" thread and kinda ' concerned' regarding gw's endgaming . And NO i am not flaming Gw2 , i just would like a POV from old GWs players or someone who knows stuffs.
I read this line from "everything we know about GW2" thread and kinda ' concerned' regarding gw's endgaming . And NO i am not flaming Gw2 , i just would like a POV from old GWs players or someone who knows stuffs.
Yeah that was pretty cool. Did you see the guy in the comments claiming he has a an Alpha pass and that they were handed out to people at Gamescom? Trolls.... gotta love their efforts sometimes.
I am getting the feeling allot of people here see raiding as a bad thing and they are messing up a few things.
Allot of people here seem to think people raid for gear and that raiders are the reason we have tier'd progression in games ala WoW / TOR etc. This statement 'while it holds true for some people' really isn't the truth for most people i know.
I am a diehard WoW-raider and i love it go nuts with 24 others So yes i was a little sad when i read that GW2 doesn't have any form of raiding. Personally i don't give a rats ass about gear and the fact that all previous obtained gear becomes useless the next patch is something i dislike the most.
TL;DR: I raid because i love the teamwork aspect of it. If there would be no loot i would still be raiding with my friends.
That being said. Im really looking forward to this game simply because it's different
I used to enjoy raiding a lot, up to the point when I beat the final boss of the raid, hence beat the challenge. At that point, the raid game essentially lost its appeal. Pretty much the same as Homitus Skyrim Story. Once I've crossed the threshold where my actions are no longer meaningful, they also are no longer fun.
Teaming up with a large group of people to beat an epic encounter after many failed attempts is fun. Having to be on a schedule to do it every week for months is not fun.
I am getting the feeling allot of people here see raiding as a bad thing and they are messing up a few things.
Allot of people here seem to think people raid for gear and that raiders are the reason we have tier'd progression in games ala WoW / TOR etc. This statement 'while it holds true for some people' really isn't the truth for most people i know.
I am a diehard WoW-raider and i love it go nuts with 24 others So yes i was a little sad when i read that GW2 doesn't have any form of raiding. Personally i don't give a rats ass about gear and the fact that all previous obtained gear becomes useless the next patch is something i dislike the most.
TL;DR: I raid because i love the teamwork aspect of it. If there would be no loot i would still be raiding with my friends.
That being said. Im really looking forward to this game simply because it's different
Dungeon crawling is one thing and raiding is another. Basically raiders have wanted to turn every game they play on, into a no risk, no pvp zone that instantly teleports them to an instance zone thats pvp restricted of course so that they can essentially play a mini game with their friends much like you would in Icewind Dale. Then they want to brag about the gear they got because their a hard core raider, in a playstyle I see as the very opposite of hard core. I cant think of anything more soft core than whats going on in WOW, or EQ2 or LOTR or any of these raid progression loot table nightmares that end up being chat rooms.
Also whenever there is a system that isn't as time consuming or breaks the paradigm just a bit in raiding, raiders complain about it because how are they supposed to have the same prestige in every game they play if the exact same system is not implemented. Essentially raiding guilds have become political lobbyists for a vocal minority forcing us to accept their dull playstyle because some fool actually listened to one of them.
I do not think any of you know what you are talking about. No one that has played that game would be allowed to talk about end-game as of yet. I have not seen one interview where a Dev said once you reach 80 the only thing to do is dungeons for Cosmetic Gear or Pvp until the next Expansion comes out.
Looking at how often I've heard them say that you will not be able to Buy gear for stats but only for cosmetics logically leads me to beileve that you have to work for the best gear. When looking at the world bosses those can be controled by high-end guilds and farmed for loot just like In Everquest.
Until you give me a link of a Developer clearly stating there is no end-game PvE raiding content for high-end gear then stop telling people over and over your thoery of what this game WILL be, because you do not know.
I do not think any of you know what you are talking about. No one that has played that game would be allowed to talk about end-game as of yet. I have not seen one interview where a Dev said once you reach 80 the only thing to do is dungeons for Cosmetic Gear or Pvp until the next Expansion comes out.
Looking at how often I've heard them say that you will not be able to Buy gear for stats but only for cosmetics logically leads me to beileve that you have to work for the best gear. When looking at the world bosses those can be controled by high-end guilds and farmed for loot just like In Everquest.
Until you give me a link of a Developer clearly stating there is no end-game PvE raiding content for high-end gear then stop telling people over and over your thoery of what this game WILL be, because you do not know.
Bad start for a new poster to state that NONE know what they are talking about. Claiming that you want a link to trust what people are telling you could be fair, if it wasn't because that what you don't belive is exsactly how it was in GW1. And that basicly means that a prove should go the other way around. You should provide a link to where they have changed it. But there exsist plenty of qoutes out there, go find them. To help you on that part here is a qoute from eric flanum.
"Most if not all of the same philosophies behind the design of Guild Wars 1 were maintained for Guild Wars 2."
"but one thing I can say is that we want our various end games to be accessible to the average player. That means that we won't have massive multi-party raids that disallow smaller guilds and groups from taking part"
this is from this forums thread about everything we know about gw2.
"There is an anti grind philosophy with GW2, there will be no end game grinding through raids to achieve better and better gear. there will be 'elite' zones and dungeons so that players who enjoy a challenge can play through those. End game is expected to consist of elite content, PvP, crafting and achievements. The sidekick system will also allow high level players to revisit and experience new dynamic events in lower level areas. Any grind will be purely voluntary and will likely be rewarded with titles and cosmetic items. As there are individual starter areas and cities for each race and branching personal story arcs, it's expected that rolling alts will add to retention of players."
I do not think any of you know what you are talking about. No one that has played that game would be allowed to talk about end-game as of yet. I have not seen one interview where a Dev said once you reach 80 the only thing to do is dungeons for Cosmetic Gear or Pvp until the next Expansion comes out.
Looking at how often I've heard them say that you will not be able to Buy gear for stats but only for cosmetics logically leads me to beileve that you have to work for the best gear. When looking at the world bosses those can be controled by high-end guilds and farmed for loot just like In Everquest.
Until you give me a link of a Developer clearly stating there is no end-game PvE raiding content for high-end gear then stop telling people over and over your thoery of what this game WILL be, because you do not know.
see the title of this thread ? there is the word 'speculate' ...
None of us know anything yet coz the beta isnt even here yet. So i create this thread as a place where ppl can give a reasoning argument or opinion on the direction of endgaming in gw2 , and i respect different sides of opinion .
What i cant condone from this thread is ppl telling others " ooo you all dont know shiet , give me proof bitch*bitch* ".
I do not think any of you know what you are talking about. No one that has played that game would be allowed to talk about end-game as of yet. I have not seen one interview where a Dev said once you reach 80 the only thing to do is dungeons for Cosmetic Gear or Pvp until the next Expansion comes out.
Looking at how often I've heard them say that you will not be able to Buy gear for stats but only for cosmetics logically leads me to beileve that you have to work for the best gear. When looking at the world bosses those can be controled by high-end guilds and farmed for loot just like In Everquest.
Until you give me a link of a Developer clearly stating there is no end-game PvE raiding content for high-end gear then stop telling people over and over your thoery of what this game WILL be, because you do not know.
see the title of this thread ? there is the word 'speculate' ...
None of us know anything yet coz the beta isnt even here yet. So i create this thread as a place where ppl can give a reasoning argument or opinion on the direction of endgaming in gw2 , and i respect different sides of opinion .
Except we know something. We know that gear with best stats will be quick to obtain once you reach level 80. It's not really speculation, unless you speculate that Anet changes their minds about it.
So gw2 is revolutionary because: ¨dont have an Endgame¨?. and just the rp players care about cosmetic gear, so at the end, gw2 will be all about arenas and the WvWvW, where you dont even need to level up your char to do that. good thing im not hype about this game, but i fell sorry for the people who really believe that gw2 gonna be ¨a revolution¨ for the genre. And i just saw this vid, is this the exciting gw2 combat? is all about ¨ 1 2 1 2 111111 and 2 once again.
Ohh man...so many people are going to wake up the hard way after this game releases...
A game with no world pvp
No better gear? everyone can acess better gear that means gear is the same as fighting naked but with less stats. and that sucks imo
Pvp only in an instanced zone for pvp or arenas everyone gets the same gear and level, no fun factor or carrot in a stick to try to improve gear, its only cosmetic.
Everyone can tank, heal and dps no specialization classes, is that good? just remove classes already a class is meant to have a specialization even if gameplay is different.
Everyone can go up to a mining node and mine it at the same time , no competition to get the node from friendly or enemy because there are no enemies in the open world only in pvp instanced arenas or zones
Everyone can belong to different guilds, where is the sense of getting together in ONE guild to become the best, if i login a diferent guild my playtime with get beneficts for another guild not my guild wtf is that? If im in a guild and know someone is beneficting another guild instead of my or our guild , i will be mad.
Comments
*sigh* There are plenty of mindless gear grinding games for people like you out there already. This game is not for you.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
Not only will some of the later dungeons be difficult (If you haven't played the first game, some people even complained that those dungeons were 'too hard'), but if you've ever played some of the MMOs that focus more on customization than epic stats, you'll get kind of a similar feel here. Getting any piece of gear will be tough enough to take effort, but not so difficult that you are grinding to get it. However, if you want to get multiple gear of the harder sets, that will take longer, and if you want to mix / match, have multiple different types of armor, that will take even more time.
Because of this, it does take up time, but it's not like a traditional timesink, as it doesn't force you to plow through content you may not like to stay competitive. It's entirely up to you as to what you want to focus on at end game, and you can still compete with other players even if you aren't an epic raider.
I'm not going to bother to quote all the stuff I've been seeing (Though I still maintain that Czechguy and Stealthbr are suffering from the problem where they believe that all game design that doesn't specifically cater to them is invalid game design and therefore must fail...)...
... but real quick, I'm going to helpfully point out the difference between grinding for power and grinding for cosmetic things.
The former is dangerous game design, because it messes with balance. Either you tune challenges for somebody who is NOT powered up, in which case somebody who is powered up can trivialize content, or you tune challenges for somebody who is powered up, in which case the grind for power becomes mandatory, rather than optional.
Witness tiered end-game gear in games like WoW. You can't actually DO most of the stuff in new expansions, until you spend a lot of time repeating certain content. In order to get to later raids, you must do earlier raids MULTIPLE times. Not 'until you're good enough to beat it in skill', but 'until you're lucky enough to get a random drop that improves your numbers. A drop which we will make random and uncommon, because we'd like you to run this as long as possible to stretch out game time'
If you're grinding for titles/achievements, whatever, you're only doing it because you WANT to, because you've set yourself a goal to achieve.
If you're grinding for the next level of power that unlocks further content, you're doing it because you HAVE to, because otherwise parts of the game are locked away from you.
... and some people like it that way, but don't try and make the (false) argument that cosmetic grind and power grind are completely conflatable and that there is, in essence, no difference between the two other than that power grind is guaranteed to be more fun.
Epic boss is gonna come rape your dogs!
People actually care about how badass they look in town? lol The fact that you can transmute your favorite low level armor looks along with rare high-end pieces onto your maxed out character sounds a lot more interesting to me than just wearing the same tier gear everyone else is wearing. That, along with the dye system, will assure that not many people will look identical. I honestly don't see the problem; kudos to ANet for improving on Aion's skinning system.
Um..... Yes, yes they do.
Then I guess they'll like GW2 even more. *shrug*
See, here I differ. While I've absolutely loved my time in Skyrim--exploration, aesthetics, story, combat, crafting, progression and all--I found that once I got my enchanting and smithing to 100, I completely lost interest in the game. After having played for 100+ hours over the first 2 weeks of its release, I haven't played it in about 10 days. I believe this is for 2 reasons: 1) combat is now completely trivial. There is nothing that can kill me on the hardest difficulty, which has made combat really really boring. 2) There is no more progression to look forward to. I feel like I actually need my character to become weaker to make the game interesting again. Of course, I could intentionally do this, but that would obviously completely go against the thrill and joy I derive out of working to improve my character. While I was once enthralled with the Perk system, I now don't even look forward to any new perks, even the level 100 perks, because I simply cannot become any more invincible. It's been frustrating to say the least.
What to take away from this? For me personally, the story, exploration, beautiful environments, and the simple joy of dungeon crawling alone are not enough to continue to engage me for a length of time. They're important to be sure. I would equally have a difficult time continuing the game if any of those features weren't present either. Regardless, this has definitely made me aware of just how important progression and combat difficulty are to me.
While I tend to agree with Stealth on pretty much all of his points, I do think he (as well as many others, and even myself sometimes) tends to fall into the trap of believing his own perspective, even if validated by virtually every friend and acquantance he knows, is everyone's perspective, or even the majority's perspective for that matter. On certain aspects of this particular discussion, I think we have to just chalk it up to personal preferences.
That sounds like a problem with Skyrim losing all challenge after you get to a certain point. If the content was still difficult and challenging with things maxed out, would you care if the only rewards were cosmetic (say loot so you can buy more houses and so on and so forth)? I get bored of a game if I become basically invicible too (after enjoying it for a little bit). GW2 doesn't aim to make things trivial at max level, so at least half of your worries are solved.
If you absolutely HAVE to have progression, then GW2 just won't be for you. It's that simple. It's for people that don't like being forced to do the same content over and over and over again that games like WoW force upon people.
I think that generalization will be proven incorrect, though it seems easy to make now. I think people like to have fun. That's my generalization. If GW2 provides fun at max level, I think people who were dialed into progression games like WoW will at some point wonder why they spent all that time in raids. And if they take a moment to think, I think they will come to the simple realization that, other than pvp, raiding was the only remotely fun thing to do at max level.
edit: any by "incorrect", I think I mean "incomplete" or "insufficient"
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
I play a rogue whos heavily invested in dual weilding swords and wearing light armor, so while I kill things very fast, I only have 200 hp at level 48 so things will kill me just as quickly if I dont use my abilities and skills afectively.
And it wasnt really the combat difficulty in its self that made dungeons cool to me, it was how they where designed astheticly and the story that gets told through each one that gets me excited.
it would definately be worth it I think to reroll a character and tyr the game form a different perspective if thats osmething your willing to do, definately do it
When it comes to dungeons in guild wars 2, sicne the diffictuly of a dungeon will be high no matter the level since each has a minimum and maximum level cap to them (and will even sidekick you down to the max if your too high lvl) so I don see combat being to easy becoming a problem. So if they can keep the story and asthetics interesting while retaining a hard difficulty they will have me sold.
If the combat was still semi-challenging, I'd be happy to play through the rest of the main storyline (very little of which I've actually touched so far) just to see what happens. At least it would still be semi-fun to go through it. But as it stands at the moment, I have to suffer through a lot of really boring gameplay to get to the story elements. It's like I'd be "grinding" to earn story as my reward instead of character progression. I do still intend to finish the main plot; I'm just a little disheartened at the moment.
I had also previously wanted to reroll a 3rd character to play a full mage class, but armed with the knowledge that all progression actually ultimately leads to an undesirable outcome really puts a damper on any new playthrough for me. And that's despite the fact that combat will undoubtedly be fairly challenging and fun for a good while before I eventually reach the final progression plateau. So yeah, progression alone is definitely of some pretty significant importance to me.
That said, as many others have pointed out in this thread, GW2 won't be devoid of progression. There will be as much as any other MMO during the leveling process, and at least a little once at max level (skins, titles, achievements, extra skill challenges for whichever skills you didn't bother going after while leveling.) Factor in hard mode dungeons and WvWvW pvp, and I'll have a reason to log onto my main, if not quite as frequently as most other MMOs. I'm also an altoholic, and I already know of 5 race/class combinations I wish to level to 80. So even without the continual end game progression push, I'm certain I'll be able to get a LOT of enjoyment out of the game.
As such, the "well GW2 probably just isn't for you" comments are getting a little annoying. I'm fairly sure I'm going to have a blast in GW2, even if I do end up playing devil's advocate by critiquing various aspects of the game from time to time.
I like this quote. It's how a lot of people felt about GW1. Those games could be really hard, even with the highest level gear available. You never walked into most of the dungeons in EotN and coasted through by the seat of your stats. WoW's raids get boring even in their own expansions, but the older raids have been ruined because 85's can just take new players through so they don't have to work to get a group and actually play the game. I don't even know why it's called progression, it actually takes the games a step back, but boy does it feel like you're winning something special when you're doing it, and to some people, apparently, that's all that matters.
OOoo SHINY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgz4wa9VN6k&feature=related
In General.
anyone who has youtube account and loves gw2 , pls subscribe to this channel. I sense greatness from this channel.
Yeah that was pretty cool. Did you see the guy in the comments claiming he has a an Alpha pass and that they were handed out to people at Gamescom? Trolls.... gotta love their efforts sometimes.
I am getting the feeling allot of people here see raiding as a bad thing and they are messing up a few things.
Allot of people here seem to think people raid for gear and that raiders are the reason we have tier'd progression in games ala WoW / TOR etc. This statement 'while it holds true for some people' really isn't the truth for most people i know.
I am a diehard WoW-raider and i love it go nuts with 24 others
So yes i was a little sad when i read that GW2 doesn't have any form of raiding. Personally i don't give a rats ass about gear and the fact that all previous obtained gear becomes useless the next patch is something i dislike the most.
TL;DR: I raid because i love the teamwork aspect of it. If there would be no loot i would still be raiding with my friends.
That being said. Im really looking forward to this game simply because it's different
Raiding in itself is not a bad thing.
I used to enjoy raiding a lot, up to the point when I beat the final boss of the raid, hence beat the challenge. At that point, the raid game essentially lost its appeal. Pretty much the same as Homitus Skyrim Story. Once I've crossed the threshold where my actions are no longer meaningful, they also are no longer fun.
Teaming up with a large group of people to beat an epic encounter after many failed attempts is fun. Having to be on a schedule to do it every week for months is not fun.
Dungeon crawling is one thing and raiding is another. Basically raiders have wanted to turn every game they play on, into a no risk, no pvp zone that instantly teleports them to an instance zone thats pvp restricted of course so that they can essentially play a mini game with their friends much like you would in Icewind Dale. Then they want to brag about the gear they got because their a hard core raider, in a playstyle I see as the very opposite of hard core. I cant think of anything more soft core than whats going on in WOW, or EQ2 or LOTR or any of these raid progression loot table nightmares that end up being chat rooms.
Also whenever there is a system that isn't as time consuming or breaks the paradigm just a bit in raiding, raiders complain about it because how are they supposed to have the same prestige in every game they play if the exact same system is not implemented. Essentially raiding guilds have become political lobbyists for a vocal minority forcing us to accept their dull playstyle because some fool actually listened to one of them.
I do not think any of you know what you are talking about. No one that has played that game would be allowed to talk about end-game as of yet. I have not seen one interview where a Dev said once you reach 80 the only thing to do is dungeons for Cosmetic Gear or Pvp until the next Expansion comes out.
Looking at how often I've heard them say that you will not be able to Buy gear for stats but only for cosmetics logically leads me to beileve that you have to work for the best gear. When looking at the world bosses those can be controled by high-end guilds and farmed for loot just like In Everquest.
Until you give me a link of a Developer clearly stating there is no end-game PvE raiding content for high-end gear then stop telling people over and over your thoery of what this game WILL be, because you do not know.
Jona ^_^
Bad start for a new poster to state that NONE know what they are talking about. Claiming that you want a link to trust what people are telling you could be fair, if it wasn't because that what you don't belive is exsactly how it was in GW1. And that basicly means that a prove should go the other way around. You should provide a link to where they have changed it. But there exsist plenty of qoutes out there, go find them. To help you on that part here is a qoute from eric flanum.
"Most if not all of the same philosophies behind the design of Guild Wars 1 were maintained for Guild Wars 2."
"but one thing I can say is that we want our various end games to be accessible to the average player. That means that we won't have massive multi-party raids that disallow smaller guilds and groups from taking part"
this is from this forums thread about everything we know about gw2.
"There is an anti grind philosophy with GW2, there will be no end game grinding through raids to achieve better and better gear. there will be 'elite' zones and dungeons so that players who enjoy a challenge can play through those. End game is expected to consist of elite content, PvP, crafting and achievements. The sidekick system will also allow high level players to revisit and experience new dynamic events in lower level areas. Any grind will be purely voluntary and will likely be rewarded with titles and cosmetic items. As there are individual starter areas and cities for each race and branching personal story arcs, it's expected that rolling alts will add to retention of players."
Now remember to prove its different is your job!
Emd game will go like this
Run around
Talk
Get better gear
Craft
Gather
Try to make gold
Aquire shiney things.
PvP
Not in that order, but something of the like
see the title of this thread ? there is the word 'speculate' ...
None of us know anything yet coz the beta isnt even here yet. So i create this thread as a place where ppl can give a reasoning argument or opinion on the direction of endgaming in gw2 , and i respect different sides of opinion .
What i cant condone from this thread is ppl telling others " ooo you all dont know shiet , give me proof bitch*bitch* ".
Except we know something. We know that gear with best stats will be quick to obtain once you reach level 80. It's not really speculation, unless you speculate that Anet changes their minds about it.
Ohh man...so many people are going to wake up the hard way after this game releases...
A game with no world pvp
No better gear? everyone can acess better gear that means gear is the same as fighting naked but with less stats. and that sucks imo
Pvp only in an instanced zone for pvp or arenas everyone gets the same gear and level, no fun factor or carrot in a stick to try to improve gear, its only cosmetic.
Everyone can tank, heal and dps no specialization classes, is that good? just remove classes already a class is meant to have a specialization even if gameplay is different.
Everyone can go up to a mining node and mine it at the same time , no competition to get the node from friendly or enemy because there are no enemies in the open world only in pvp instanced arenas or zones
Everyone can belong to different guilds, where is the sense of getting together in ONE guild to become the best, if i login a diferent guild my playtime with get beneficts for another guild not my guild wtf is that? If im in a guild and know someone is beneficting another guild instead of my or our guild , i will be mad.