Well I play TF2 "regularly" - I take 30min to an hour a day to let off some steam and have fun with my friends. Ocassionally I spend a weekend afternoon or two loosing myself in the game. I suspect GW2 will fill this niche of mine in the long run and since it offers quite a bit more content I might loose a few more afternoons to it than I do to TF2.
That being said, I'm thankful for it . I don't need a game that will occupy 90% of my otherwise empty and pointless life. I want a game that is fun, well made and relaxing and which I can play with my friends or just wander around and hang out with strangers... and which I can leave feeling satisfied rather than vaguely guilty that I'm not "progressing" (hah!) enough. So far, GW2's "endgame" looks just perfect to me.
As for the word "endgame" the point is that in GW2 the "endgame" begins at level 1. Let me explain. If WoW was made according to this principle you'd be raiding from level 1, without having to go through the whole quest-leveling process first. Conversely, you'd have single player quest lines going on even after you achieve max level - they would be tiered just like raids. The thing is that there is so much more you can do in GW2 endgame besides raiding and PvP ing, and that is because ANet is building the game on the premise that the whole game is "endgame."
Once you reach maximum level your way of playing won't magically transform into something completely different. You'll just keep on doing whatever you enjoyed doing during leveling. It's just you'll be lvl 80 and you'll be advancing in some other ways like collecting titles, traits and (mostly cosmetic) gear.
You just pointed out the flaw of maxed-level-geared . indeed , in WoW , once you hit max you get way extremly better gear than ur prev levelling gear . That's what ( imo ) the developers of gw2 (ANet) try to avoid, which is good .
But imagine this, after somene hit 80 with all those activities offered, do you think all these activities going to motivate enough players to regularly get to their computer when the offers are titles and costumes?
We can argue my question over and over , but the point is : there will be a lot of activities but the reward is only title and cosmetic . ( and probz better gear which everyone can get em easily)
Well I'm quite motivated to keep playing TF2 even though it offers a much narrower scope of content than a full-fledged mmo GW2 promises to be. My rewards for playing TF2 are fun and funny hats. If GW2 offers me the same in terms of rewards I won't complain.
On to another point, why should a game "shackle you" to spend the most time possible on it? As far as I know P2P games have monthly subscriptions rather than hourly ones. WoW would make more money if it WEREN'T such a time sink and offered a more intense and less addictive experience (bandwith and servers do cost something). If I were designing a super-cash-cow mmo I'd try to make players play 15 minutes, have such an intensive experience that they don't feel a need to repeat it immediately and yet wish to return to it at least once a month.
Originally posted by Fozzik GW2 will have more to do at max level than just about any MMORPG ever released. The entire game's content will be open and available at max level without being trivial. You'll be able to explore and fill in your map, do entire zones' worth of content that you didn't visit during your journey, and revisit areas to find new and different events going on than what you experienced the first time you were there. Since events reward you with various currency for purchasing things you want, you'll be able to accumulate the things you want without any limit on what you do (you don't have to do one particular event over and over again trying to get a specific item). You'll be able to join friends regardless of their level or location, and help out newer players in a way that doesn't ruin the content for them. There will be dungeons which provide multiple different paths and require very focused and skilled players to work as a team. There will be open-world event chains that can scale up to 100 players, and provide massive boss battles at their conclusion. There will be crafting, achievements and feats, collections. There will be tons of replay value with multiple personal story possibilities for each race. There will be skills, recipes, and traits to discover or earn. There will be all sorts of weapon and armor looks to acquire with different stats, and hundreds of dye colors to unlock. All of these are goals that players can pursue. Whenever ArenaNet adds some new content after release, it will be available to every single player in the game, rather than locked to a specific level range that doesn't serve max level players. A brand new event or dungeon arrives with the latest patch? You can do it right away with your friends regardless of their level, or the level of the content. In actuality, the only things that will be missing are a gear grind for better stats, and multi-group instances to farm. The fact that those two things just happen to make up the bulk of the endgame in just about every single MMORPG since EQ days doesn't reflect badly on GW2...it reflects badly on the genre and the developers for stagnating on a singular possibility and doing it to death. The lazy bait-and-switch that leads players to either rush to the endgame with their raiding guild or play to max and quit...that will not be part of GW2. There's nothing at all wrong with enjoying those two things. Certainly some people absolutely love doing the same raids dozens of times for the chance at that next piece of gear which will allow you to do another raid dozens of times. If that is your idea of fun, more power to you! There are tons of games that offer exactly what you enjoy, and there's no chance of them going away anytime soon. It's important to recognize a simple fact, however. The fact that some people enjoy doing those things doesn't mean that's ALL THERE IS. GW2 not having those things doesn't mean it has no longevity, or no endgame. Quite the contrary...with the removal of barriers and the focus on social play and community, and the way the world will be much more dynamic and changes will persist, GW2 may end up having longer average played times than just about any game since the early genre. It also doesn't hurt that they won't be charging you every month just for the privilege of logging in. This genre has so much potential for almost unlimited play and choices. GW2 will be exploring some very different mechanics and systems which should hopefully provide much less of a bait-and-switch...and much more of a smooth continuation of the game play you enjoy when you reach max level. It's a game tailor-made for those who truly enjoy the journey and the potential immersiveness of a virtual world (finally!). ArenaNet is providing tons of horizontal advancement to customize your play style and provide you with options, while removing the vertical advancement that permanently separates the player base at max level by putting up barriers of stats, tiers, and trivialized content. They are focusing on making the moment-to-moment, bread-and-butter game play more fun and addictive and engaging...so that it's just fun to play, no matter how you chose to do so.
Great post
Let's also not forget that Anet have set up their DE creation system to be able to add them to the game quickly and easily, there will be fresh DE's arriving post release and because of the sidekicking system they can throw them in anywhere and we'll all get to play them. Don't expect end content to be easy either, Anet have a good history of creating challenging content (DoA at release anyone?). I also have faith they aren't going to rest on their laurels, they want to release the best possible game they can I'm sure they'll do their best to keep it that way too.
What do you do in WoW between raids? You a). stand around waiting for the raid to start, b). run some dailies, or c). level another toon so that it can run dailies or stand around and wait for the raid to start. That's because there is never really anything going on, unless you are in a running raid.
I think the difference between GW2 endgame and raiding endgame is going to be simply the sense that there is always something going on, and no matter where you go in the game it will find you. So instead of waiting around for the raid to start, you will log in when you feel like playing and simply look around for what's happening. In that sense the game would be a true themepark in that all the rides are operating and you have your choice, and they are all just as fun as the first time you went on them. So there is no endgame. Just game.
But since this is a fundamental shift, it's hard to imagine with precision or know with certainty to what degree they can pull it off.
Charr: Outta my way. Human: What's your problem? Charr: Your thin skin.
Did I not suggest they sell this game under a different genre? Hack and Slash MMO. or AMMO or what every fancy title they can come up with.
Going on what is known about it it will me more a Role Playing Game then many single player titles, let alone MMO's. Your definition of RPG is just that, your definition.
If you're looking for an implementation of your round based system akin to Dnd, Bioware's NWN is still available for download on GOG, probably on Ebay, Plenty of modules for you to download and play with your friends, or perhaps you join a persistent world server, there must be some around still.
Guildwars is not DnD, and as many computer implementations, it is not round based. It doesn't use 20 sided dices either (why should when computer algortithms can generate random numbers in any distribution you like). If that's what you are looking for you have to look elsewhere. It's that simple.
Did I not suggest they sell this game under a different genre? Hack and Slash MMO. or AMMO or what every fancy title they can come up with.
Going on what is known about it it will me more a Role Playing Game then many single player titles, let alone MMO's. Your definition of RPG is just that, your definition.
If you're looking for an implementation of your round based system akin to Dnd, Bioware's NWN is still available for download on GOG, probably on Ebay, Plenty of modules for you to download and play with your friends, or perhaps you join a persistent world server, there must be some around still.
Guildwars is not DnD, and as many computer implementations, it is not round based. It doesn't use 20 sided dices either (why should when computer algortithms can generate random numbers in any distribution you like). If that's what you are looking for you have to look elsewhere. It's that simple.
I concur. It's like saying Skyrim isn't an RPG because it has action-based combat.
As for D&D, I will say GW has more in common with D&D than almost any other MMO out there. No Holy Trinity, an emphasis on positioning, etc. Mechanics might differ, but it shares a number of tactical principles, in a general sense.
I concur. It's like saying Skyrim isn't an RPG because it has action-based combat.
As for D&D, I will say GW has more in common with D&D than almost any other MMO out there. No Holy Trinity, an emphasis on positioning, etc. Mechanics might differ, but it shares a number of tactical principles, in a general sense.
Yep, I don't remember ever rolling to see whether the warrior was maintaining aggro.
Charr: Outta my way. Human: What's your problem? Charr: Your thin skin.
I concur. It's like saying Skyrim isn't an RPG because it has action-based combat.
As for D&D, I will say GW has more in common with D&D than almost any other MMO out there. No Holy Trinity, an emphasis on positioning, etc. Mechanics might differ, but it shares a number of tactical principles, in a general sense.
Yep, I don't remember ever rolling to see whether the warrior was maintaining aggro.
And indeed, if you go into a difficult combat in D&D, the last thing you want to do as a warrior is try to get EVERYONE attacking just you. That's suicide even if you are tougher than anyone else (because you aren't tougher to the extreme that the Holy Trinity requires, and the healer couldn't keep up with that damage). It's generally a good thing for damage to get spread around a decent bit in D&D. I imagine with healing abilities in GW2 this should be true in it as well.
Don't bring up the semantics behind the definition of every word in RPG. Tabletop RPG's are the ORIGINAL and you used a dice to determine your actions.
Since I do not want to retype something someone else already said read this quote.
Originally posted by rdash
There are plenty of tabletop RPGs that involve no dices or don't emphasize progression (e.g.with players assuming new characters for each scenario). That doesn't make them any less of role-playing game. That doesn't make GW2 any less of MMORPG.
Like rdash, in my younger years, I played a bunch of different table top RPGs and some of them did not use dice. So I must ask who made you table top king so you could throw those games out of that genre? My logic here is a little rusty so maybe you can explain how there is Tabletop RPGs that did not use dice but if a game does not use dice it is not a RPG.
Because by your rules, that tabletop RPGs set the governing rules that define what a RPG is, a game that uses dice and a game that does not use dice are both RPGs.
Originally posted by ipeka
We can argue my question over and over , but the point is : there will be a lot of activities but the reward is only title and cosmetic . ( and probz better gear which everyone can get em easily)
Since you apparently did not read this the first time, here it is again.
Originally posted by AKASlaphappy
Is there a reason you are ignoring collecting traits and skills or do you just not know about this side of GW2? After you hit max level you can go out and collect all your elite, healing, and utility skills and skill up on any weapons you have not used so your character is more versatile. Also you can go out and collect traits, although we do not know how this is going to work since they are changing how you acquired them. Just like capturing elite skills in GW1 extended the play time and gave people objectives to shoot for I believe traits and skills will do the same for GW2.
Can someone here that has the opinion that the only rewards are titles and cosmetics please explain how traits and collecting new utility, heal, and elite skills are not a reward!
Let’s see do you have an objective when you go out to collect a trait at level 80? Yes.
Do you get something out of doing your objective? Yes.
Wow this is getting freaky guys this almost sound like a reward almost like vertical gear based progression.
Do you have an objective when you raid a dungeon for gear? Yes.
Do you get something out of doing your objective? Yes.
Oh my god both vertical and horizontal based games have rewards players can set for themselves, call the media! Who would have thought that a horizontal based progression game might have some type of reward that players can set for themselves like vertical based progression games? After all only a mad scientist could think of something this diabolical!
I concur. It's like saying Skyrim isn't an RPG because it has action-based combat.
As for D&D, I will say GW has more in common with D&D than almost any other MMO out there. No Holy Trinity, an emphasis on positioning, etc. Mechanics might differ, but it shares a number of tactical principles, in a general sense.
Yep, I don't remember ever rolling to see whether the warrior was maintaining aggro.
there's gotta be a "like" button here somewhere.
i get this mental image of a bunch of d&d'ers raging after the first encounter because the warrior failed his aggro roll.
This is why Guild Wars 2 will be a huge hit, mark my words.
Games like EQ, WoW, Warhammer, Aion, AoC, Rift and such all rely on the above method to keep people interested. People play the game because they are led into the feeling that they *need* to keep playing. But just because they are playing does not mean they *enjoy* playing.
Guild Wars 2 is the first game I have seen in an age that builds most of it's content to lead people into enjoying their character and game world without implementing vindictive and questionable techniques to keep people tied to the game like their life depends on it. I give a huge hurrah for any developers who wish their game to stand on it's own merits rather than trying to get inside the players heads to make them feel the need to play.
This is why Guild Wars 2 will be a huge hit, mark my words.
Games like EQ, WoW, Warhammer, Aion, AoC, Rift and such all rely on the above method to keep people interested. People play the game because they are led into the feeling that they *need* to keep playing. But just because they are playing does not mean they *enjoy* playing.
Guild Wars 2 is the first game I have seen in an age that builds most of it's content to lead people into enjoying their character and game world without implementing vindictive and questionable techniques to keep people tied to the game like their life depends on it. I give a huge hurrah for any developers who wish their game to stand on it's own merits rather than trying to get inside the players heads to make them feel the need to play.
I agree. While GW2 innovation is often based on improvement of existing features, this one is something unique to the genre. It's fundamental shift in approach to player that (hopefully) will be rewarded with attention of many MMORPG players, but even more important, non-MMORPG players.
I am a sucker for long term incentives and character progress in games myself. (Need carrots!) I.e. Stuff to look forward to and invest a lot of time and effort in.
What Anet is doing is a move away from that and I am really curious if GW2 will have any lasting appeal for those like me.
Depends a lot on the quality of the repeatable content like the Mists I suppose.
This is why Guild Wars 2 will be a huge hit, mark my words.
Games like EQ, WoW, Warhammer, Aion, AoC, Rift and such all rely on the above method to keep people interested. People play the game because they are led into the feeling that they *need* to keep playing. But just because they are playing does not mean they *enjoy* playing.
Guild Wars 2 is the first game I have seen in an age that builds most of it's content to lead people into enjoying their character and game world without implementing vindictive and questionable techniques to keep people tied to the game like their life depends on it. I give a huge hurrah for any developers who wish their game to stand on it's own merits rather than trying to get inside the players heads to make them feel the need to play.
I really enjoyed the video. I completely agree with its explaination of skinner rewards and how they are bad for gaming... And my favorite part is how they actually present several alternatives to the typical reward model. I think GW2 will have less compulsion and spood-fed rewards as compared to most MMOs on the market currently, but still more than many games since it is a traditional RPG at its core with gear, leveling, badges, and the whole sha-bang.
I concur. It's like saying Skyrim isn't an RPG because it has action-based combat.
As for D&D, I will say GW has more in common with D&D than almost any other MMO out there. No Holy Trinity, an emphasis on positioning, etc. Mechanics might differ, but it shares a number of tactical principles, in a general sense.
Yep, I don't remember ever rolling to see whether the warrior was maintaining aggro.
And indeed, if you go into a difficult combat in D&D, the last thing you want to do as a warrior is try to get EVERYONE attacking just you. That's suicide even if you are tougher than anyone else (because you aren't tougher to the extreme that the Holy Trinity requires, and the healer couldn't keep up with that damage). It's generally a good thing for damage to get spread around a decent bit in D&D. I imagine with healing abilities in GW2 this should be true in it as well.
I agree completely... The holy trinity does not make sense on most levels.
You do see it working on a social level however. Players really enjoy feeling 'needed'. I have actually read about and experienced myself friends talking about how good it felt when their group 'needed' them. And girls especially seem to become territorial when someone with the same role as their character tries to join the group. Ie, if your group has a warrior already and another warrior joins, they will be passive-aggressive towards the other warrior.
You see this in normal social circles and in games thanks to the holy trinity.
I would like to move away from the holy trinity, but the concept of it is compelling and I think it is something that developers can evolve as oppose to completely remove. Having ROLES that make players feel NEEDED is good game development. The holy trinity is just one way of doing this which IMO damages immersion for reasons discussed by Seman and Drach. OH and its over-done. Another way to make players feel like a needed part of their group can and will be found.
Originally posted by DarkPony Very curious about this too. I am a sucker for long term incentives and character progress in games myself. (Need carrots!) I.e. Stuff to look forward to and invest a lot of time and effort in. What Anet is doing is a move away from that and I am really curious if GW2 will have any lasting appeal for those like me. Depends a lot on the quality of the repeatable content like the Mists I suppose.
You're misunderstanding...you aren't the only one, so I'm not really singling you out. It's just the fact that you posted this misconception most recently so I quoted you.
ArenaNet is NOT moving away from providing long-term incentives and character progress. Those things will definitely be present in GW2 throughout the game and at max level. It just may be different incentives than what we have been seeing in the last 6 years, or at least a different focus/priority on certain incentives. There will be long-term goals and things to look forward to. They just might be different goals than the standard MMO formula we've been getting.
Rather than providing goals that involve getting ever-increasing stats and tiers of gear, they are providing goals that involve exploration, collection, completionism, etc. They are providing incentives that involve developing your character width-wise, increasing the number of options and play styles available to you, and developing your personal story and making permanent changes to your instance. They are providing social incentives in a big way by incorporating fundamental community-building mechanics in every area of the game.
It actually depends very little on repeatable content, because players will have more options than in any other endgame we've seen in a long time...
- All content in the game will be available to you at max level with nothing being trivial
- Dungeons will have multiple paths and dynamic events built in to provide many different experiences
- The world will be constantly changing because of (or even without) players
- Rewards are set up to not be exclusive to particular events (you don't have to do one particular boss or one particular event to get the item you want).
- Because the focus of character advancement is on horizontal progression (more skills, traits, different stats, etc), and that progression comes through multiple different acquisition methods.
Based on all of the above, it's unlikely that players will have to "farm" anything ever...unless they choose to. If you're a player even remotely interested in variety...it will be available in GW2, and they'll be adding more events and more to do after release. Obviously the PvP is set up to be fun over and over again, but the nature of PvP makes it unlikely to ever be the same experience twice (other players make for very dynamic content *wink*).
If you want to see what this "horizontal" or "lateral" progression looks like take a look at TF2 (which is completely freeeee!).
In that game gear progression consists either of getting funny hats or new weapons which are NOT more powerful than the basic ones - each bonus is counterbalanced by a penalty. For example, you can find a minigun that gives 25% more damage but at the cost of reducing your movement to zero while firing. Or a flamethrower which automatically crits when attacking from behind but at an increased ammo cost for its secondary firing mode. So this gear does not make you more poweful in an absolute sense but it can improve your effectiveness if it conforms to your playing style.
If you're a Pyro who likes to lurk in corridors and surprise crowds of enemies then this flamethrower is a godsend. If you're open-space pyro who sets his enemies on fire and then pushes them away to buy time for burning DOT to do its work then this "backburner" flamethrower is WORSE than what you get at the beginning.
The second "carrot" in TF2 is funny hats - they are funny, totally useless and make you stand out in the crowd.. and people spend real money on them and really covet rare ones.
I kinda suspect GW2 endgame progression will be very similar to that in TF2. Of course you'll have many more different things to strive for (traits, titles, skills, armor....) but basically this is what we're looking at. And I can tell you it works just as well as classical "+x stat" progression without all the attendant problems it creates.
If you want to see what this "horizontal" or "lateral" progression looks like take a look at TF2 (which is completely freeeee!).
In that game gear progression consists either of getting funny hats or new weapons which are NOT more powerful than the basic ones - each bonus is counterbalanced by a penalty. For example, you can find a minigun that gives 25% more damage but at the cost of reducing your movement to zero while firing. Or a flamethrower which automatically crits when attacking from behind but at an increased ammo cost for its secondary firing mode. So this gear does not make you more poweful in an absolute sense but it can improve your effectiveness if it conforms to your playing style.
If you're a Pyro who likes to lurk in corridors and surprise crowds of enemies then this flamethrower is a godsend. If you're open-space pyro who sets his enemies on fire and then pushes them away to buy time for burning DOT to do its work then this "backburner" flamethrower is WORSE than what you get at the beginning.
The second "carrot" in TF2 is funny hats - they are funny, totally useless and make you stand out in the crowd.. and people spend real money on them and really covet rare ones.
I kinda suspect GW2 endgame progression will be very similar to that in TF2. Of course you'll have many more different things to strive for (traits, titles, skills, armor....) but basically this is what we're looking at. And I can tell you it works just as well as classical "+x stat" progression without all the attendant problems it creates.
Or you can buy all the social stuff and skills from the gw2 shop; yes, thats how Anet make money and thats why they dont have a ¨gear progression system¨ or a real endgame, so they can sell you all the fluffy stuff and skills from the shop. Did you remember gw1 shop, right?.
If you want to see what this "horizontal" or "lateral" progression looks like take a look at TF2 (which is completely freeeee!).
In that game gear progression consists either of getting funny hats or new weapons which are NOT more powerful than the basic ones - each bonus is counterbalanced by a penalty. For example, you can find a minigun that gives 25% more damage but at the cost of reducing your movement to zero while firing. Or a flamethrower which automatically crits when attacking from behind but at an increased ammo cost for its secondary firing mode. So this gear does not make you more poweful in an absolute sense but it can improve your effectiveness if it conforms to your playing style.
If you're a Pyro who likes to lurk in corridors and surprise crowds of enemies then this flamethrower is a godsend. If you're open-space pyro who sets his enemies on fire and then pushes them away to buy time for burning DOT to do its work then this "backburner" flamethrower is WORSE than what you get at the beginning.
The second "carrot" in TF2 is funny hats - they are funny, totally useless and make you stand out in the crowd.. and people spend real money on them and really covet rare ones.
I kinda suspect GW2 endgame progression will be very similar to that in TF2. Of course you'll have many more different things to strive for (traits, titles, skills, armor....) but basically this is what we're looking at. And I can tell you it works just as well as classical "+x stat" progression without all the attendant problems it creates.
Or you can buy all the social stuff and skills from the gw2 shop; yes, thats how Anet make money and thats why they dont have a ¨gear progression system¨ or a real endgame, so they can sell you all the fluffy stuff and skills from the shop. Did you remember gw1 shop, right?.
Not really since I didn't care much for GW1.. interesting concepts and all but I just couldn't get into it due to all the popular gripes about that game.
Anyways, so what if they make some fluff purchaseable? And btw they did not really "sell skills" in their shop because that skill pack could be used only on PvP characters - actually it was a very fair way to save the money of customers who weren't interested in PvE part of the game. They could have made more money by NOT offering that skill pack - PvPers would be forced to buy the more costly expansions AND slough through a part of the game that is not appealing to them. Anyways, I believe that only the fluff will in store - skills and traits won't be offered because that would undermine the game's longevity and appeal to the "achiever/collector"crowd which seems to be their primary target audience.
1) Gear is not the distinguishing factor between good and bad players. Remember skill > time. You should not have to play 10 hours a day just to be effective. Wile yes, gear plays more of a role than in GW 1, it still plays the mostly cosmetically role of GW1. So by running the hard dungeons on explorer mode, youll get better looking gear, but not necessarily better gear stats wise. 2) Get out of the idea of you must raid to endgame. In GW2, endgame literally is the entire game. You can do whatever you like. You want to run dungeons, go ahead. You want to do PvP, have fun. You want to do more dynamic events, more power to you. You just want to explore every nook and crany of Tyria, you can do that too. Basically, just because you hit the number "80", be thrust into an entirely different game. 3) No clue If you don't like the idea of gear not being the distinguishing factor between players, there are plenty of games for you. If you don't like the idea of a person wh only plays maybe 4 hours a week being as effective, if not better than those who play the game like a full time job, there are plenty of other games out there for you. I can tell you GW2 is NOT one of those games, and it will NOT be one of those games. GW2 values skill over time. And my breaks between my points didn't show up. Stupid iPad..
Hmm whats the point though to run end game dungeons if there is no profit? Watch wht im saying. I dont mean gear must distinguish players but if i play a dungeon yeah i expect to take some items that improve in stats my character is ti just for 1 point strength or dexterity? Hell yeah i want that point . Otherwise there is no fun. And it is like this since the dawn of role playing games. U gain levels u explore dungeons crypts doing quests u get rewards and better items . Even dungeons and dragons is based on that concept. Cause seriously i dont think anyone will play any dungeons or raids just to take better looking items but no better stats.
And im worrying here about the fun factor of end game as well. Surely i m pvpier as well and ill get involved with pvp competitions world and arena like ladders stuff. Point is apart that with no obvious reason to play pve since no stats improvement what else is there in the game to do. Exlore the world? If there are no better items to get via adventuring in the wilds as well open world is going to be dead as well like the pve dungeons and raids.
So from whatever u suggest u can do only pvp has a meaning. The rest gives no profit = useless to get busy with.
1) Gear is not the distinguishing factor between good and bad players. Remember skill > time. You should not have to play 10 hours a day just to be effective. Wile yes, gear plays more of a role than in GW 1, it still plays the mostly cosmetically role of GW1. So by running the hard dungeons on explorer mode, youll get better looking gear, but not necessarily better gear stats wise. 2) Get out of the idea of you must raid to endgame. In GW2, endgame literally is the entire game. You can do whatever you like. You want to run dungeons, go ahead. You want to do PvP, have fun. You want to do more dynamic events, more power to you. You just want to explore every nook and crany of Tyria, you can do that too. Basically, just because you hit the number "80", be thrust into an entirely different game. 3) No clue If you don't like the idea of gear not being the distinguishing factor between players, there are plenty of games for you. If you don't like the idea of a person wh only plays maybe 4 hours a week being as effective, if not better than those who play the game like a full time job, there are plenty of other games out there for you. I can tell you GW2 is NOT one of those games, and it will NOT be one of those games. GW2 values skill over time. And my breaks between my points didn't show up. Stupid iPad..
Hmm whats the point though to run end game dungeons if there is no profit? Watch wht im saying. I dont mean gear must distinguish players but if i play a dungeon yeah i expect to take some items that improve in stats my character is ti just for 1 point strength or dexterity? Hell yeah i want that point . Otherwise there is no fun. And it is like this since the dawn of role playing games. U gain levels u explore dungeons crypts doing quests u get rewards and better items . Even dungeons and dragons is based on that concept. Cause seriously i dont think anyone will play any dungeons or raids just to take better looking items but no better stats.
And im worrying here about the fun factor of end game as well. Surely i m pvpier as well and ill get involved with pvp competitions world and arena like ladders stuff. Point is apart that with no obvious reason to play pve since no stats improvement what else is there in the game to do. Exlore the world? If there are no better items to get via adventuring in the wilds as well open world is going to be dead as well like the pve dungeons and raids.
So from whatever u suggest u can do only pvp has a meaning. The rest gives no profit = useless to get busy with.
If we're taking TF2 as a model I suspect dungeon rewards would look something like this:
Say you have a basic max level armor. The armor piece you get at the end of a particular dungeon won't give you +X to a stat... It will give you +X to one stat and -X to another, relative to the said basic max lvl armor. So, if your playstyle prefers one stat over the other (and it usually does) this new piece might be either very useful OR completely useless to you. Say you want to max out your crit chance but don't care about your HP. There is this dungeon where you can find a +crit, -HP chest piece... See?
This not only solves the problem of balancing players (especially in PvP) but it also creates more diversity. In WoW everybody wears armor tier 3 or tier 4 or tier 5... If you're at one level of advancement there is no choice on what to wear. In the example from above everybody always has the full range of gear to choose from. You might get tired of crit-based play and want to become a more beefy/tanky character. In that case you take your old basic armor - which now becomes BETTER than the one you found in that dungeon - and look for a chance to obtain a +HP -crit chest piece.
That's the whole idea of "horizontal gear progression" in a nutshell.
Originally posted by semantikron What do you do in WoW between raids? You a). stand around waiting for the raid to start, b). run some dailies, or c). level another toon so that it can run dailies or stand around and wait for the raid to start. That's because there is never really anything going on, unless you are in a running raid.
Hmm whats the point though to run end game dungeons if there is no profit? Watch wht im saying. I dont mean gear must distinguish players but if i play a dungeon yeah i expect to take some items that improve in stats my character is ti just for 1 point strength or dexterity? Hell yeah i want that point . Otherwise there is no fun.
If this is your reasoning, why you play these games, than I can see how GW2 might not suit you. That is perfectly reasonable. But do not assume everyone plays like that. For me
1. Seeing new content is fun.
2. Mastering a challenge is fun.
3. Just fooling around with a group of friends is fun.
4. In most games so far, getting new gear is also fun. Not because of the gear itself, but because it allows me to get more of 1 and 2. If the game is designed without gated content that requires gear upgrades, then point 4 becomes moot.
1) Gear is not the distinguishing factor between good and bad players. Remember skill > time. You should not have to play 10 hours a day just to be effective. Wile yes, gear plays more of a role than in GW 1, it still plays the mostly cosmetically role of GW1. So by running the hard dungeons on explorer mode, youll get better looking gear, but not necessarily better gear stats wise. 2) Get out of the idea of you must raid to endgame. In GW2, endgame literally is the entire game. You can do whatever you like. You want to run dungeons, go ahead. You want to do PvP, have fun. You want to do more dynamic events, more power to you. You just want to explore every nook and crany of Tyria, you can do that too. Basically, just because you hit the number "80", be thrust into an entirely different game. 3) No clue If you don't like the idea of gear not being the distinguishing factor between players, there are plenty of games for you. If you don't like the idea of a person wh only plays maybe 4 hours a week being as effective, if not better than those who play the game like a full time job, there are plenty of other games out there for you. I can tell you GW2 is NOT one of those games, and it will NOT be one of those games. GW2 values skill over time. And my breaks between my points didn't show up. Stupid iPad..
Hmm whats the point though to run end game dungeons if there is no profit? Watch wht im saying. I dont mean gear must distinguish players but if i play a dungeon yeah i expect to take some items that improve in stats my character is ti just for 1 point strength or dexterity? Hell yeah i want that point . Otherwise there is no fun. And it is like this since the dawn of role playing games. U gain levels u explore dungeons crypts doing quests u get rewards and better items . Even dungeons and dragons is based on that concept. Cause seriously i dont think anyone will play any dungeons or raids just to take better looking items but no better stats.
And im worrying here about the fun factor of end game as well. Surely i m pvpier as well and ill get involved with pvp competitions world and arena like ladders stuff. Point is apart that with no obvious reason to play pve since no stats improvement what else is there in the game to do. Exlore the world? If there are no better items to get via adventuring in the wilds as well open world is going to be dead as well like the pve dungeons and raids.
So from whatever u suggest u can do only pvp has a meaning. The rest gives no profit = useless to get busy with.
If we're taking TF2 as a model I suspect dungeon rewards would look something like this:
Say you have a basic max level armor. The armor piece you get at the end of a particular dungeon won't give you +X to a stat... It will give you +X to one stat and -X to another, relative to the said basic max lvl armor. So, if your playstyle prefers one stat over the other (and it usually does) this new piece might be either very useful OR completely useless to you. Say you want to max out your crit chance but don't care about your HP. There is this dungeon where you can find a +crit, -HP chest piece... See?
This not only solves the problem of balancing players (especially in PvP) but it also creates more diversity. In WoW everybody wears armor tier 3 or tier 4 or tier 5... If you're at one level of advancement there is no choice on what to wear. In the example from above everybody always has the full range of gear to choose from. You might get tired of crit-based play and want to become a more beefy/tanky character. In that case you take your old basic armor - which now becomes BETTER than the one you found in that dungeon - and look for a chance to obtain a +HP -crit chest piece.
That's the whole idea of "horizontal gear progression" in a nutshell.
I get your point. Prob is what u refer to exists in wow in the form of reforging . U just go to a vendor and taking out hit% or some other stat and u put crit % or some other stat u wish for. Here as u suggest u have to go to dungeons for it. I dont think it is a leap forward , rather backwards. And as a huge rpg fan ,no gear in an rpg its ahuge minor to that rpg mmo or not from my point of view. Besides if u think about it well for each class there is going to be a must have stat increase, so same thing happens to wow will happen here apparently players will go to x site find which stat is must to be increased + % for their class for pvp and get it. It may sounds simplified but those things happen.
All i can say is this. After many years i see an mmorpg coming with best combat around as it seems to be from the videos ,which seems to have the potential to give real fun back to the players and they are screwing up the game itself by removing items aquisition ,further character improvement via gear which is essential for all rpg's.
I gave an example in older post. there is a knight thats been around in the world gave many fights hes expirienced (playying GW 2 over a year). And there is that young fellow that is more talented than the knight(player skill wise) but inexpirienced since he's young (just made it to lvl cap / new to GW 2). These 2 fellas meet in pvp tournament. Knight's expirience can be represented by gear but in GW 2 such thing doesnt exist since all players have same gear during pvp and therefore the knight looses. Is it fair? I think not . if u think that it is fair try to explain this to the knight that after a year fighting dragons or whatever else in that world ,that despice his expirience at battles he cannot wear his well earned equipment and loose just because hes bit less skilled than the young fella that right after he left his farm desided to joina tourenament and won him.
Got my point?
Want to know why ppl that quited wow prefer vanilla form nowdays wow? Cause it was very hard to get good gear and it wasnt making u that better from a guy in green and blue items. I became commander with a green 2 handed sword and a blue 58 lvl bow as a hunter in wow and some average pvp+pve items i recall. It took me around 1 year to get a better boiw and sword. This could be made in GW 2 as well.Give gear to ppl but not easy as it is given through dailies and playing few dungeons. Give them gear after a long time. Its way better that than having no gear improvement at all.
Hmm whats the point though to run end game dungeons if there is no profit? Watch wht im saying. I dont mean gear must distinguish players but if i play a dungeon yeah i expect to take some items that improve in stats my character is ti just for 1 point strength or dexterity? Hell yeah i want that point . Otherwise there is no fun.
If this is your reasoning, why you play these games, than I can see how GW2 might not suit you. That is perfectly reasonable. But do not assume everyone plays like that. For me
1. Seeing new content is fun.
2. Mastering a challenge is fun.
3. Just fooling around with a group of friends is fun.
4. In most games so far, getting new gear is also fun. Not because of the gear itself, but because it allows me to get more of 1 and 2. If the game is designed without gated content that requires gear upgrades, then point 4 becomes moot.
One does not exclude the others. one the other hand feel free to post any serious role playign game u want that respects itsself ,Baldur's gate Elder Scroll series, gothic series,Fallout ,eye of the beholder ,Black crypt any kind of d&d series that via gear u dont improve your character.
And all this conversaton is being made because aparently w eall are going to buy GW 2 w ell play it have fun but after 2-3 months maybe 4 w ell quit because ANET thinks all those rpg's concepts about gear was wrong and they desided to be diferent by saying ah no here gear wont improve u.
Well if they want to be diferrent i could give them a load of 30-40 ideas of what they can implement to be extinguish themselfs from the rets mmorpg's (political agenas super duper deep and heavy diplomacy system ,players claiming titles and rights to rule provinces,gain properties and castles for them, huge pvp campaigns with meaningfull effects, claiming enemy guild cities, resources wars, building ships and naval battles, real housing systems, every guild build fortresses and buy npc;s to guard them, build towers and defensive buildings and list goes on... but hey that requires a lot of work doesnt it?? :]
Comments
Well I'm quite motivated to keep playing TF2 even though it offers a much narrower scope of content than a full-fledged mmo GW2 promises to be. My rewards for playing TF2 are fun and funny hats. If GW2 offers me the same in terms of rewards I won't complain.
On to another point, why should a game "shackle you" to spend the most time possible on it? As far as I know P2P games have monthly subscriptions rather than hourly ones. WoW would make more money if it WEREN'T such a time sink and offered a more intense and less addictive experience (bandwith and servers do cost something). If I were designing a super-cash-cow mmo I'd try to make players play 15 minutes, have such an intensive experience that they don't feel a need to repeat it immediately and yet wish to return to it at least once a month.
Great post
Let's also not forget that Anet have set up their DE creation system to be able to add them to the game quickly and easily, there will be fresh DE's arriving post release and because of the sidekicking system they can throw them in anywhere and we'll all get to play them. Don't expect end content to be easy either, Anet have a good history of creating challenging content (DoA at release anyone?). I also have faith they aren't going to rest on their laurels, they want to release the best possible game they can I'm sure they'll do their best to keep it that way too.
What do you do in WoW between raids? You a). stand around waiting for the raid to start, b). run some dailies, or c). level another toon so that it can run dailies or stand around and wait for the raid to start. That's because there is never really anything going on, unless you are in a running raid.
I think the difference between GW2 endgame and raiding endgame is going to be simply the sense that there is always something going on, and no matter where you go in the game it will find you. So instead of waiting around for the raid to start, you will log in when you feel like playing and simply look around for what's happening. In that sense the game would be a true themepark in that all the rides are operating and you have your choice, and they are all just as fun as the first time you went on them. So there is no endgame. Just game.
But since this is a fundamental shift, it's hard to imagine with precision or know with certainty to what degree they can pull it off.
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
Going on what is known about it it will me more a Role Playing Game then many single player titles, let alone MMO's. Your definition of RPG is just that, your definition.
If you're looking for an implementation of your round based system akin to Dnd, Bioware's NWN is still available for download on GOG, probably on Ebay, Plenty of modules for you to download and play with your friends, or perhaps you join a persistent world server, there must be some around still.
Guildwars is not DnD, and as many computer implementations, it is not round based. It doesn't use 20 sided dices either (why should when computer algortithms can generate random numbers in any distribution you like). If that's what you are looking for you have to look elsewhere. It's that simple.
I concur. It's like saying Skyrim isn't an RPG because it has action-based combat.
As for D&D, I will say GW has more in common with D&D than almost any other MMO out there. No Holy Trinity, an emphasis on positioning, etc. Mechanics might differ, but it shares a number of tactical principles, in a general sense.
Yep, I don't remember ever rolling to see whether the warrior was maintaining aggro.
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
And indeed, if you go into a difficult combat in D&D, the last thing you want to do as a warrior is try to get EVERYONE attacking just you. That's suicide even if you are tougher than anyone else (because you aren't tougher to the extreme that the Holy Trinity requires, and the healer couldn't keep up with that damage). It's generally a good thing for damage to get spread around a decent bit in D&D. I imagine with healing abilities in GW2 this should be true in it as well.
Since I do not want to retype something someone else already said read this quote.
Like rdash, in my younger years, I played a bunch of different table top RPGs and some of them did not use dice. So I must ask who made you table top king so you could throw those games out of that genre? My logic here is a little rusty so maybe you can explain how there is Tabletop RPGs that did not use dice but if a game does not use dice it is not a RPG.
Because by your rules, that tabletop RPGs set the governing rules that define what a RPG is, a game that uses dice and a game that does not use dice are both RPGs.
Since you apparently did not read this the first time, here it is again.
Can someone here that has the opinion that the only rewards are titles and cosmetics please explain how traits and collecting new utility, heal, and elite skills are not a reward!
Let’s see do you have an objective when you go out to collect a trait at level 80? Yes.
Do you get something out of doing your objective? Yes.
Wow this is getting freaky guys this almost sound like a reward almost like vertical gear based progression.
Do you have an objective when you raid a dungeon for gear? Yes.
Do you get something out of doing your objective? Yes.
Oh my god both vertical and horizontal based games have rewards players can set for themselves, call the media! Who would have thought that a horizontal based progression game might have some type of reward that players can set for themselves like vertical based progression games? After all only a mad scientist could think of something this diabolical!
there's gotta be a "like" button here somewhere.
i get this mental image of a bunch of d&d'ers raging after the first encounter because the warrior failed his aggro roll.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-skinner-box
This is why Guild Wars 2 will be a huge hit, mark my words.
Games like EQ, WoW, Warhammer, Aion, AoC, Rift and such all rely on the above method to keep people interested. People play the game because they are led into the feeling that they *need* to keep playing. But just because they are playing does not mean they *enjoy* playing.
Guild Wars 2 is the first game I have seen in an age that builds most of it's content to lead people into enjoying their character and game world without implementing vindictive and questionable techniques to keep people tied to the game like their life depends on it. I give a huge hurrah for any developers who wish their game to stand on it's own merits rather than trying to get inside the players heads to make them feel the need to play.
I agree. While GW2 innovation is often based on improvement of existing features, this one is something unique to the genre. It's fundamental shift in approach to player that (hopefully) will be rewarded with attention of many MMORPG players, but even more important, non-MMORPG players.
Very curious about this too.
I am a sucker for long term incentives and character progress in games myself. (Need carrots!) I.e. Stuff to look forward to and invest a lot of time and effort in.
What Anet is doing is a move away from that and I am really curious if GW2 will have any lasting appeal for those like me.
Depends a lot on the quality of the repeatable content like the Mists I suppose.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I really enjoyed the video. I completely agree with its explaination of skinner rewards and how they are bad for gaming... And my favorite part is how they actually present several alternatives to the typical reward model. I think GW2 will have less compulsion and spood-fed rewards as compared to most MMOs on the market currently, but still more than many games since it is a traditional RPG at its core with gear, leveling, badges, and the whole sha-bang.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
I agree completely... The holy trinity does not make sense on most levels.
You do see it working on a social level however. Players really enjoy feeling 'needed'. I have actually read about and experienced myself friends talking about how good it felt when their group 'needed' them. And girls especially seem to become territorial when someone with the same role as their character tries to join the group. Ie, if your group has a warrior already and another warrior joins, they will be passive-aggressive towards the other warrior.
You see this in normal social circles and in games thanks to the holy trinity.
I would like to move away from the holy trinity, but the concept of it is compelling and I think it is something that developers can evolve as oppose to completely remove. Having ROLES that make players feel NEEDED is good game development. The holy trinity is just one way of doing this which IMO damages immersion for reasons discussed by Seman and Drach. OH and its over-done. Another way to make players feel like a needed part of their group can and will be found.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
You're misunderstanding...you aren't the only one, so I'm not really singling you out. It's just the fact that you posted this misconception most recently so I quoted you.
ArenaNet is NOT moving away from providing long-term incentives and character progress. Those things will definitely be present in GW2 throughout the game and at max level. It just may be different incentives than what we have been seeing in the last 6 years, or at least a different focus/priority on certain incentives. There will be long-term goals and things to look forward to. They just might be different goals than the standard MMO formula we've been getting.
Rather than providing goals that involve getting ever-increasing stats and tiers of gear, they are providing goals that involve exploration, collection, completionism, etc. They are providing incentives that involve developing your character width-wise, increasing the number of options and play styles available to you, and developing your personal story and making permanent changes to your instance. They are providing social incentives in a big way by incorporating fundamental community-building mechanics in every area of the game.
It actually depends very little on repeatable content, because players will have more options than in any other endgame we've seen in a long time...
- All content in the game will be available to you at max level with nothing being trivial
- Dungeons will have multiple paths and dynamic events built in to provide many different experiences
- The world will be constantly changing because of (or even without) players
- Rewards are set up to not be exclusive to particular events (you don't have to do one particular boss or one particular event to get the item you want).
- Because the focus of character advancement is on horizontal progression (more skills, traits, different stats, etc), and that progression comes through multiple different acquisition methods.
Based on all of the above, it's unlikely that players will have to "farm" anything ever...unless they choose to. If you're a player even remotely interested in variety...it will be available in GW2, and they'll be adding more events and more to do after release. Obviously the PvP is set up to be fun over and over again, but the nature of PvP makes it unlikely to ever be the same experience twice (other players make for very dynamic content *wink*).
To add to above:
If you want to see what this "horizontal" or "lateral" progression looks like take a look at TF2 (which is completely freeeee!).
In that game gear progression consists either of getting funny hats or new weapons which are NOT more powerful than the basic ones - each bonus is counterbalanced by a penalty. For example, you can find a minigun that gives 25% more damage but at the cost of reducing your movement to zero while firing. Or a flamethrower which automatically crits when attacking from behind but at an increased ammo cost for its secondary firing mode. So this gear does not make you more poweful in an absolute sense but it can improve your effectiveness if it conforms to your playing style.
If you're a Pyro who likes to lurk in corridors and surprise crowds of enemies then this flamethrower is a godsend. If you're open-space pyro who sets his enemies on fire and then pushes them away to buy time for burning DOT to do its work then this "backburner" flamethrower is WORSE than what you get at the beginning.
The second "carrot" in TF2 is funny hats - they are funny, totally useless and make you stand out in the crowd.. and people spend real money on them and really covet rare ones.
I kinda suspect GW2 endgame progression will be very similar to that in TF2. Of course you'll have many more different things to strive for (traits, titles, skills, armor....) but basically this is what we're looking at. And I can tell you it works just as well as classical "+x stat" progression without all the attendant problems it creates.
Oh wow... You referred to PvP as "repeatable content".
That is just plain wrong.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Or you can buy all the social stuff and skills from the gw2 shop; yes, thats how Anet make money and thats why they dont have a ¨gear progression system¨ or a real endgame, so they can sell you all the fluffy stuff and skills from the shop. Did you remember gw1 shop, right?.
Not really since I didn't care much for GW1.. interesting concepts and all but I just couldn't get into it due to all the popular gripes about that game.
Anyways, so what if they make some fluff purchaseable? And btw they did not really "sell skills" in their shop because that skill pack could be used only on PvP characters - actually it was a very fair way to save the money of customers who weren't interested in PvE part of the game. They could have made more money by NOT offering that skill pack - PvPers would be forced to buy the more costly expansions AND slough through a part of the game that is not appealing to them. Anyways, I believe that only the fluff will in store - skills and traits won't be offered because that would undermine the game's longevity and appeal to the "achiever/collector"crowd which seems to be their primary target audience.
Hmm whats the point though to run end game dungeons if there is no profit? Watch wht im saying. I dont mean gear must distinguish players but if i play a dungeon yeah i expect to take some items that improve in stats my character is ti just for 1 point strength or dexterity? Hell yeah i want that point . Otherwise there is no fun. And it is like this since the dawn of role playing games. U gain levels u explore dungeons crypts doing quests u get rewards and better items . Even dungeons and dragons is based on that concept. Cause seriously i dont think anyone will play any dungeons or raids just to take better looking items but no better stats.
And im worrying here about the fun factor of end game as well. Surely i m pvpier as well and ill get involved with pvp competitions world and arena like ladders stuff. Point is apart that with no obvious reason to play pve since no stats improvement what else is there in the game to do. Exlore the world? If there are no better items to get via adventuring in the wilds as well open world is going to be dead as well like the pve dungeons and raids.
So from whatever u suggest u can do only pvp has a meaning. The rest gives no profit = useless to get busy with.
If we're taking TF2 as a model I suspect dungeon rewards would look something like this:
Say you have a basic max level armor. The armor piece you get at the end of a particular dungeon won't give you +X to a stat... It will give you +X to one stat and -X to another, relative to the said basic max lvl armor. So, if your playstyle prefers one stat over the other (and it usually does) this new piece might be either very useful OR completely useless to you. Say you want to max out your crit chance but don't care about your HP. There is this dungeon where you can find a +crit, -HP chest piece... See?
This not only solves the problem of balancing players (especially in PvP) but it also creates more diversity. In WoW everybody wears armor tier 3 or tier 4 or tier 5... If you're at one level of advancement there is no choice on what to wear. In the example from above everybody always has the full range of gear to choose from. You might get tired of crit-based play and want to become a more beefy/tanky character. In that case you take your old basic armor - which now becomes BETTER than the one you found in that dungeon - and look for a chance to obtain a +HP -crit chest piece.
That's the whole idea of "horizontal gear progression" in a nutshell.
PVP
If this is your reasoning, why you play these games, than I can see how GW2 might not suit you. That is perfectly reasonable. But do not assume everyone plays like that. For me
1. Seeing new content is fun.
2. Mastering a challenge is fun.
3. Just fooling around with a group of friends is fun.
4. In most games so far, getting new gear is also fun. Not because of the gear itself, but because it allows me to get more of 1 and 2. If the game is designed without gated content that requires gear upgrades, then point 4 becomes moot.
I get your point. Prob is what u refer to exists in wow in the form of reforging . U just go to a vendor and taking out hit% or some other stat and u put crit % or some other stat u wish for. Here as u suggest u have to go to dungeons for it. I dont think it is a leap forward , rather backwards. And as a huge rpg fan ,no gear in an rpg its ahuge minor to that rpg mmo or not from my point of view. Besides if u think about it well for each class there is going to be a must have stat increase, so same thing happens to wow will happen here apparently players will go to x site find which stat is must to be increased + % for their class for pvp and get it. It may sounds simplified but those things happen.
All i can say is this. After many years i see an mmorpg coming with best combat around as it seems to be from the videos ,which seems to have the potential to give real fun back to the players and they are screwing up the game itself by removing items aquisition ,further character improvement via gear which is essential for all rpg's.
I gave an example in older post. there is a knight thats been around in the world gave many fights hes expirienced (playying GW 2 over a year). And there is that young fellow that is more talented than the knight(player skill wise) but inexpirienced since he's young (just made it to lvl cap / new to GW 2). These 2 fellas meet in pvp tournament. Knight's expirience can be represented by gear but in GW 2 such thing doesnt exist since all players have same gear during pvp and therefore the knight looses. Is it fair? I think not . if u think that it is fair try to explain this to the knight that after a year fighting dragons or whatever else in that world ,that despice his expirience at battles he cannot wear his well earned equipment and loose just because hes bit less skilled than the young fella that right after he left his farm desided to joina tourenament and won him.
Got my point?
Want to know why ppl that quited wow prefer vanilla form nowdays wow? Cause it was very hard to get good gear and it wasnt making u that better from a guy in green and blue items. I became commander with a green 2 handed sword and a blue 58 lvl bow as a hunter in wow and some average pvp+pve items i recall. It took me around 1 year to get a better boiw and sword. This could be made in GW 2 as well.Give gear to ppl but not easy as it is given through dailies and playing few dungeons. Give them gear after a long time. Its way better that than having no gear improvement at all.
One does not exclude the others. one the other hand feel free to post any serious role playign game u want that respects itsself ,Baldur's gate Elder Scroll series, gothic series,Fallout ,eye of the beholder ,Black crypt any kind of d&d series that via gear u dont improve your character.
And all this conversaton is being made because aparently w eall are going to buy GW 2 w ell play it have fun but after 2-3 months maybe 4 w ell quit because ANET thinks all those rpg's concepts about gear was wrong and they desided to be diferent by saying ah no here gear wont improve u.
Well if they want to be diferrent i could give them a load of 30-40 ideas of what they can implement to be extinguish themselfs from the rets mmorpg's (political agenas super duper deep and heavy diplomacy system ,players claiming titles and rights to rule provinces,gain properties and castles for them, huge pvp campaigns with meaningfull effects, claiming enemy guild cities, resources wars, building ships and naval battles, real housing systems, every guild build fortresses and buy npc;s to guard them, build towers and defensive buildings and list goes on... but hey that requires a lot of work doesnt it?? :]
So lets cut the gear off and we r different!~!!!!