though more than the need for FPS combat i just wish the game wasn't so reliant on the "Holy Trinity". god haven't MMORPGs evolved enough that we don't need this silly mechanic or are MMO players that stupid that they need to be put into specific roles?
Thanks for the info on the Acts, guys. I figured it was in reference to your class story, just didn't know how many Acts are actually in each storyline.
Also the people saying that FPS style combat is more challenging is just plain wrong. Sure its more physically challenging as it requires more hand eye coordination.
But current style MMO combat can be just as challenging. And if you dont think so then you haven't challenged yourself with the latest pvp content and put yourself up against stiff pvp competition.
Its eitehr that or you got wiped several times and blamed it on the system rather then you couldn;t figure it out.
It actually DOES get challenging. There;s a learning curve. Eventually the game stops playing nice.
Think of Act 1 as an "introduction".
Btw, this is off topic, but speaking of Act 1, what exactly is that? I've heard it referenced in regards to the Legacy System, and it's obviously a component of the class story line, I was just wondering when one gets to it. I heard most people get to it by around level 30ish or so. And that being the case, is there an Act II as well? Or is that something that will be added in as they add more content?
Sorry for the hijack. Just a question I've had for a while now.
You start the game in "Act 1". You move on to "Act 2" at around 30 or so, typically.
A lot of things (like the legacy system) aren't unlocked until the end of Act 1, and the game also increases in difficulty and complexity at this point.
though more than the need for FPS combat i just wish the game wasn't so reliant on the "Holy Trinity". god haven't MMORPGs evolved enough that we don't need this silly mechanic or are MMO players that stupid that they need to be put into specific roles?
It works why fix it? Other MMO's have tried to go the other route and failed do to no organization when fighting mobs. People make this huge claim that GW2 doesn;t use the trinity but it does. The only difference is GW2 is letting people fill multiple roles. But you will still ahve a few in tank mode, a feew in healer mode and a few in dps mode.
Ironically SWTOR is doing kind of the same thing. So far people can fill multiple roles depening on the needs of the group due to the specs you canchoose the the fact that the same gear you use for dps can be also used for healing.
though more than the need for FPS combat i just wish the game wasn't so reliant on the "Holy Trinity". god haven't MMORPGs evolved enough that we don't need this silly mechanic or are MMO players that stupid that they need to be put into specific roles?
I happen to like the Holy Trinity because I'm a firm believer in people having specific roles, and being expected to excel in those roles. To me, it's makes the game more immersive and realistic when the "soldiers" all have specific duties they are to perform. When countries go to war, there are tons of different roles that the soldiers have: Infantry, armored, snipers, combat medics, etc.
I like having this kind of thing in mmorpgs, too. My feeling is that if everybody can do everything, than nobody stands out. I'm not sure why there is this sudden issue people have with the trinity concept all of a sudden. My guess it's backlash that comes about from the infusion of the end game raid grind that so many MMOs do now. Having a Trinity makes it more difficult to formulate the right group for the job. But I still prefer it to a homogenized non-trinity system. I realize not everyone shares that opinon, though.
Originally posted by Teala Originally posted by ktanner3 Agree with those that said they wouldn't have any interest in this game if it was a shooter. Leave that crap out of TOR.
Oh I am sorry, Skyrim uses FPS combat, so do many awesome games...FPS combat is not crap - it is just different and more challenging.
And i am bemoaning this choice - It is the wrong choice since i started playing Elder Scrolls with Morrowind!
But whenever was a game perfect?
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Game would lose most if not all non fps style fans.
aren't most gamers fans of all different genres? I know I am.
isn't the RPG genre one of the smallest niches of those that aren't?
A good action MMO takes a lot of innovation, to not end up like APB. You need depth and scale to make it mean something, that it's a persistent world game. That doesn't mean it can't be more action oriented combat, though. It just means they have to have a good plan on how to tie it all together.. and if they figure that out, I find it hard to believe such combat would cost them more players than they'd gain.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Game would lose all if no most ex WoW players who enjoy standing still mashing buttons. At least they should have done a combo system. I would definately play if they had mount and blade style melee and fps style range alas devs are too lazy and these WoW fan consumers too zombiefied.
Game would lose most if not all non fps style fans.
aren't most gamers fans of all different genres? I know I am.
isn't the RPG genre one of the smallest niches of those that aren't?
A good action MMO takes a lot of innovation, to not end up like APB. You need depth and scale to make it mean something, that it's a persistent world game. That doesn't mean it can't be more action oriented combat, though. It just means they have to have a good plan on how to tie it all together.. and if they figure that out, I find it hard to believe such combat would cost them more players than they'd gain.
I like many different forms of games when they're responsive and well made. Problem is I've yet to touch a FPS MMO of any kind that didn't feel off in some way, 2 out of every 3 feel floaty, from planetside on up, it just doesn't feel responsive enough. Going on this I'd prefer the traditional, until it's presented in a way that is fluid as well as tight I'll opt out of FPS style combat in MMO land.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Umm no, i really enjoy the combat as it is. FPS style combat in MMOS is not for me. And like others said. Standing at one place and spamming abilities is not going to help once you get to higher levels. Enemy AI throws a lot of abilities at you and if you are just going to stand at one place you will die a lot.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Now I know this is a sticky subject with some people that feel the standard hotbar, tab target, combat mechanics is how an MMO should be made, but I can't help but wonder what this games combat would have been like with FPS combat. Not psuedo FPS, but good FPS with real type ballistics physics. Imagine the kind of fights one might have using this type of game play. It worked for such games SW: Battlefront and Jedi Acedemy - why not SW:ToR?
Gone would be the static, stand in one place playing whack-the-mole. Gone would be the static, stand in one place, shooting it out. Because that is how the current games combat mechanics, which to me, are sad, dull, and boring. Am I the only one that feels FPS combat would have made this game a 100% better and a game that would have been challenging and fun?
Honestly, after playing in the few beta weekends, i found atleast for the melee classes, feel alot like jedi outcast. If i had to go and compare TOR against SWG pre-cu and then say which one felt more like outcast i would say TOR by a long shot. If you're just standing there and pressing buttons you are not utilizing the combat system TOR offers.
The swtor´s problem is not the style combat... its his end game
And what is the problem with end game?
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
I like many different forms of games when they're responsive and well made. Problem is I've yet to touch a FPS MMO of any kind that didn't feel off in some way, 2 out of every 3 feel floaty, from planetside on up, it just doesn't feel responsive enough. Going on this I'd prefer the traditional, until it's presented in a way that is fluid as well as tight I'll opt out of FPS style combat in MMO land.
In my experience with APB, it can be responsive enough (APB was garbage for other reasons, but that aside..) I'm waiting on Tera, Firefall and Planetside 2, to see how they go. I'm a little concerned about the combat in Tera, because in some videos I've seen, it appears to translate into a whole lot of tedious kiting - to me, that would be action combat gone terribly wrong.
I think of it more as a way to balance the fast paced insta-kill elements some people expect from a game like TOR. Like, if everyone had an active block ability that reduced damage to its normal health chiseling levels, but with the right timing, you could land those satisfying iconic one-shot kills. I just think it could be a lot more fun, but I can also see how it could go all wrong.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I have to admit I really really wanted SWTOR to be twitch style versus click and kill .. and it actually made me jaded for my first couple hours of beta play. But the story really hooked me in and gameplay style has never been tops on my list of critera to play a game anyways so I'll definately be playing.. but to me the target -> click attack -> use powers style of play just feels old fashioned.
In my experience with APB, it can be responsive enough (APB was garbage for other reasons, but that aside..) I'm waiting on Tera, Firefall and Planetside 2, to see how they go. I'm a little concerned about the combat in Tera, because in some videos I've seen, it appears to translate into a whole lot of tedious kiting - to me, that would be action combat gone terribly wrong.
I think of it more as a way to balance the fast paced insta-kill elements some people expect from a game like TOR. Like, if everyone had an active block ability that reduced damage to its normal health chiseling levels, but with the right timing, you could land those satisfying iconic one-shot kills. I just think it could be a lot more fun, but I can also see how it could go all wrong.
I agree if done right it would probably feel a lot more fun, the challenge is doing it right. I'm no dev so I really don't know why it seems to be such a challenge to translate active combat into an MMO setting, I don't know if it's a skill issue or a tech issue. Whatever it is it doesn't seem to be something many even want to try, I'm sure there's some explainable reason behind that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
before playing the game I would have said yes, but now, I don't think so.
however I do agree with Maverick (no relation, honest) that adopting some of AoC's mechanics would have benefited this game, or at least something more than what it did. I realize that moving around a bit in combat is fun and stuff, but it doesn't seem to grant me any advantage in pve questing compared to just chain gunning stuff dead.
This except for the fps part
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
TOR doesn't have FPS combat and will never have it, so it's kind of pointless to even discuss this. It's like questioning whether an apple would be better if it were an orange: both have their different aspects that you might like or dislike. Thing is, an apple is an apple and an orange is an orange (stating the obvious).
Whether you'll be standing still all the time. Well, only if you don't know what you're doing.
Even with a more stationary class like the sniper or gunslinger, you'll constantly want to roll into different cover spots.
I would welcome some more MMO's with FPS combat, though I think they would require very much different models for the rest of the gameplay than most MMO's, both sandbox and themepark, run with today, to be successful.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
The pve high end is short, dont need a a lot of time for do it, and the pvp is horrible, only 3 battlegrounds and the open pvp in the swtor is a fu... joke
though more than the need for FPS combat i just wish the game wasn't so reliant on the "Holy Trinity". god haven't MMORPGs evolved enough that we don't need this silly mechanic or are MMO players that stupid that they need to be put into specific roles?
It works why fix it?
it "works" because its an easy way for lazy developers to balance the games and shoe horn lazy gamers into specific roles. its a silly concept that needs to be "put down".
though more than the need for FPS combat i just wish the game wasn't so reliant on the "Holy Trinity". god haven't MMORPGs evolved enough that we don't need this silly mechanic or are MMO players that stupid that they need to be put into specific roles?
It works why fix it?
it "works" because its an easy way for lazy developers to balance the games and shoe horn lazy gamers into specific roles. its a silly concept that needs to be "put down".
We will see it put down when players in majority wouldn't want it anymore.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
That said, Mass Effect is my favorite series in gaming all time, and Fallout ranks real high as well. As long as you have alternatives to being entirely twitch factor, I am more apt to enjoy.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
it "works" because its an easy way for lazy developers to balance the games and shoe horn lazy gamers into specific roles. its a silly concept that needs to be "put down".
Don't you think it's a little arrogant to accuse the developers, who spent years of their life developing a game while they will see little of the revenue flowing back into their pockets once sales start (as about 80% of a game's price flows into the pockets of publishers and distributors), of laziness, because you don't happen to like the system they went for?
Mmyeah...
Fact remains, media and games follow a commercial logic up to a point, the trinity model is the most successful and it remains so to this day. There is no large angry group of gamers that is rising up to "put down" that model.
And those who do often don't even have a clear idea on how to actually do so, other than vague statements of introducing "more CC" or "scrap roles and let everyone do stuff" (the latter idea doesn't even remove the trinity, it just allows you to switch).
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Comments
though more than the need for FPS combat i just wish the game wasn't so reliant on the "Holy Trinity". god haven't MMORPGs evolved enough that we don't need this silly mechanic or are MMO players that stupid that they need to be put into specific roles?
Thanks for the info on the Acts, guys. I figured it was in reference to your class story, just didn't know how many Acts are actually in each storyline.
Also the people saying that FPS style combat is more challenging is just plain wrong. Sure its more physically challenging as it requires more hand eye coordination.
But current style MMO combat can be just as challenging. And if you dont think so then you haven't challenged yourself with the latest pvp content and put yourself up against stiff pvp competition.
Its eitehr that or you got wiped several times and blamed it on the system rather then you couldn;t figure it out.
You start the game in "Act 1". You move on to "Act 2" at around 30 or so, typically.
A lot of things (like the legacy system) aren't unlocked until the end of Act 1, and the game also increases in difficulty and complexity at this point.
It works why fix it? Other MMO's have tried to go the other route and failed do to no organization when fighting mobs. People make this huge claim that GW2 doesn;t use the trinity but it does. The only difference is GW2 is letting people fill multiple roles. But you will still ahve a few in tank mode, a feew in healer mode and a few in dps mode.
Ironically SWTOR is doing kind of the same thing. So far people can fill multiple roles depening on the needs of the group due to the specs you canchoose the the fact that the same gear you use for dps can be also used for healing.
I happen to like the Holy Trinity because I'm a firm believer in people having specific roles, and being expected to excel in those roles. To me, it's makes the game more immersive and realistic when the "soldiers" all have specific duties they are to perform. When countries go to war, there are tons of different roles that the soldiers have: Infantry, armored, snipers, combat medics, etc.
I like having this kind of thing in mmorpgs, too. My feeling is that if everybody can do everything, than nobody stands out. I'm not sure why there is this sudden issue people have with the trinity concept all of a sudden. My guess it's backlash that comes about from the infusion of the end game raid grind that so many MMOs do now. Having a Trinity makes it more difficult to formulate the right group for the job. But I still prefer it to a homogenized non-trinity system. I realize not everyone shares that opinon, though.
And i am bemoaning this choice - It is the wrong choice since i started playing Elder Scrolls with Morrowind!
But whenever was a game perfect?
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
aren't most gamers fans of all different genres? I know I am.
isn't the RPG genre one of the smallest niches of those that aren't?
A good action MMO takes a lot of innovation, to not end up like APB. You need depth and scale to make it mean something, that it's a persistent world game. That doesn't mean it can't be more action oriented combat, though. It just means they have to have a good plan on how to tie it all together.. and if they figure that out, I find it hard to believe such combat would cost them more players than they'd gain.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Game would lose all if no most ex WoW players who enjoy standing still mashing buttons. At least they should have done a combo system. I would definately play if they had mount and blade style melee and fps style range alas devs are too lazy and these WoW fan consumers too zombiefied.
MurderHerd
I like many different forms of games when they're responsive and well made. Problem is I've yet to touch a FPS MMO of any kind that didn't feel off in some way, 2 out of every 3 feel floaty, from planetside on up, it just doesn't feel responsive enough. Going on this I'd prefer the traditional, until it's presented in a way that is fluid as well as tight I'll opt out of FPS style combat in MMO land.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Umm no, i really enjoy the combat as it is. FPS style combat in MMOS is not for me. And like others said. Standing at one place and spamming abilities is not going to help once you get to higher levels. Enemy AI throws a lot of abilities at you and if you are just going to stand at one place you will die a lot.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
The swtor´s problem is not the style combat... its his end game
Honestly, after playing in the few beta weekends, i found atleast for the melee classes, feel alot like jedi outcast. If i had to go and compare TOR against SWG pre-cu and then say which one felt more like outcast i would say TOR by a long shot. If you're just standing there and pressing buttons you are not utilizing the combat system TOR offers.
And what is the problem with end game?
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
In my experience with APB, it can be responsive enough (APB was garbage for other reasons, but that aside..) I'm waiting on Tera, Firefall and Planetside 2, to see how they go. I'm a little concerned about the combat in Tera, because in some videos I've seen, it appears to translate into a whole lot of tedious kiting - to me, that would be action combat gone terribly wrong.
I think of it more as a way to balance the fast paced insta-kill elements some people expect from a game like TOR. Like, if everyone had an active block ability that reduced damage to its normal health chiseling levels, but with the right timing, you could land those satisfying iconic one-shot kills. I just think it could be a lot more fun, but I can also see how it could go all wrong.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I have to admit I really really wanted SWTOR to be twitch style versus click and kill .. and it actually made me jaded for my first couple hours of beta play. But the story really hooked me in and gameplay style has never been tops on my list of critera to play a game anyways so I'll definately be playing.. but to me the target -> click attack -> use powers style of play just feels old fashioned.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I agree if done right it would probably feel a lot more fun, the challenge is doing it right. I'm no dev so I really don't know why it seems to be such a challenge to translate active combat into an MMO setting, I don't know if it's a skill issue or a tech issue. Whatever it is it doesn't seem to be something many even want to try, I'm sure there's some explainable reason behind that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This except for the fps part
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
TOR doesn't have FPS combat and will never have it, so it's kind of pointless to even discuss this. It's like questioning whether an apple would be better if it were an orange: both have their different aspects that you might like or dislike. Thing is, an apple is an apple and an orange is an orange (stating the obvious).
Whether you'll be standing still all the time. Well, only if you don't know what you're doing.
Look at this player here, a trooper vanguard, he knows what he is doing and is constantly on the move: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ENe-eWBnVU
Even with a more stationary class like the sniper or gunslinger, you'll constantly want to roll into different cover spots.
I would welcome some more MMO's with FPS combat, though I think they would require very much different models for the rest of the gameplay than most MMO's, both sandbox and themepark, run with today, to be successful.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
The pve high end is short, dont need a a lot of time for do it, and the pvp is horrible, only 3 battlegrounds and the open pvp in the swtor is a fu... joke
it "works" because its an easy way for lazy developers to balance the games and shoe horn lazy gamers into specific roles. its a silly concept that needs to be "put down".
We will see it put down when players in majority wouldn't want it anymore.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Im sure some would love it , however I refuse to play any FPS games and would not enjoy it.
I never liked FPS focused titles.
That said, Mass Effect is my favorite series in gaming all time, and Fallout ranks real high as well. As long as you have alternatives to being entirely twitch factor, I am more apt to enjoy.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Don't you think it's a little arrogant to accuse the developers, who spent years of their life developing a game while they will see little of the revenue flowing back into their pockets once sales start (as about 80% of a game's price flows into the pockets of publishers and distributors), of laziness, because you don't happen to like the system they went for?
Mmyeah...
Fact remains, media and games follow a commercial logic up to a point, the trinity model is the most successful and it remains so to this day. There is no large angry group of gamers that is rising up to "put down" that model.
And those who do often don't even have a clear idea on how to actually do so, other than vague statements of introducing "more CC" or "scrap roles and let everyone do stuff" (the latter idea doesn't even remove the trinity, it just allows you to switch).
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!