TOR doesn't have FPS combat and will never have it, so it's kind of pointless to even discuss this. It's like questioning whether an apple would be better if it were an orange: both have their different aspects that you might like or dislike. Thing is, an apple is an apple and an orange is an orange (stating the obvious).
Whether you'll be standing still all the time. Well, only if you don't know what you're doing.
Even with a more stationary class like the sniper or gunslinger, you'll constantly want to roll into different cover spots.
I would welcome some more MMO's with FPS combat, though I think they would require very much different models for the rest of the gameplay than most MMO's, both sandbox and themepark, run with today, to be successful.
That's a PvP example - PvP almost always benefits from moving, even if the game mechanics don't. If nothing else, it tends to throw the opposition off if you keep getting behind them, jumping in and out of rang, etc. That's still a lot different from what the OP seemed to be referring to, though.
I know its pointless to talk about here, in regards to TOR, but ideas tend to be viral, especially these days. What starts as a forum post can end up in a developer meeting a year later.. Won't have anything to do with TOR, but still, doesn't hurt to discuss it..
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
no way. i hate fps games. I like rpg's for a reason they arent twitch based. I can tolerate fps games and have played them but this is an mmorpg not an mmofps i dont want twitch based fps mechanics or fighter mechanics wher ei have to hit dodge, parry, conter crap either
I want rpg mechanics and thank god thats what bioware did.
TOR doesn't have FPS combat and will never have it, so it's kind of pointless to even discuss this. It's like questioning whether an apple would be better if it were an orange: both have their different aspects that you might like or dislike. Thing is, an apple is an apple and an orange is an orange (stating the obvious).
Whether you'll be standing still all the time. Well, only if you don't know what you're doing.
Even with a more stationary class like the sniper or gunslinger, you'll constantly want to roll into different cover spots.
I would welcome some more MMO's with FPS combat, though I think they would require very much different models for the rest of the gameplay than most MMO's, both sandbox and themepark, run with today, to be successful.
That's a PvP example - PvP almost always benefits from moving, even if the game mechanics don't. If nothing else, it tends to throw the opposition off if you keep getting behind them, jumping in and out of rang, etc. That's still a lot different from what the OP seemed to be referring to, though.
I know its pointless to talk about here, in regards to TOR, but ideas tend to be viral, especially these days. What starts as a forum post can end up in a developer meeting a year later.. Won't have anything to do with TOR, but still, doesn't hurt to discuss it..
So PvP examples don't count or what?
Because even FPS games with PvE, such as global agenda, are rather stationary in that gameplay area, at least a lot of the time, when the mobs don't display special abilities (which some also do in TOR).
The system is perfectly capable of movement, that's what counts.
I don't believe TOR will ever switch over, it would be a stupid move, the equivalent of an NGE changing the core game. A lot of people like this system, so why would they?
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Maybe if they also had the option of 3PS style combat (zoom toggle). They did this with the old Jedi Knight games and it worked amazingly well.
The only issue they'd really have (aside from the re-coding) is with the static boss fights. FPS-style combat just isn't fun unless the boss fights are very dynamic.
Mmofps games are still pretty niche. Planetside 2 may change that but It may not. The thing with most mmofps games Is that they are very heavily PvP focused. Not sure if that style of game would be appealing in a story driven pve environment.
The Mmofps crowd is very small. The Fps players won't pay a sub for it when they can go play cod or battlefield without one. The vast majority of mmo players are not skilled shooter players and are not interested in the combat.
Face it, this game would be sacrificing a large amount of it's mass market appeal and become a niche game that would have to be F2P.
Personally, I like the Mmofps genre, but this game is not the place for it.
Nope it would not work for me as I loathe FPS. I havenever truly enjoyed FPS in anything I just don't see the enjoyment in it. I want to immerse my self in a game world not run around in FPS competing in a prison yard party.
it "works" because its an easy way for lazy developers to balance the games and shoe horn lazy gamers into specific roles. its a silly concept that needs to be "put down".
Don't you think it's a little arrogant to accuse the developers, who spent years of their life developing a game while they will see little of the revenue flowing back into their pockets once sales start (as about 80% of a game's price flows into the pockets of publishers and distributors), of laziness, because you don't happen to like the system they went for?
Mmyeah...
not at all, its lazy game design. its easy to build scripted loot pinatas around it and thats really the only reason why it hasn't been "put down" well that and the stupid gamers out there who hates WoW but wants the next MMORPG they play to be just like WoW.
Fact remains, media and games follow a commercial logic up to a point, the trinity model is the most successful and it remains so to this day. There is no large angry group of gamers that is rising up to "put down" that model.
And those who do often don't even have a clear idea on how to actually do so, other than vague statements of introducing "more CC" or "scrap roles and let everyone do stuff" (the latter idea doesn't even remove the trinity, it just allows you to switch).
thats why you need more dynamic twitch based combat. add active blocking and dodging because no matter how bad ass your mandalorian armor is if a Ancient Krayt dragon steps on you ... its probably going to hurt A LOT.
I would play a FPS if I wanted to. I like playing MMO's, thus I like MMO combat. I am sick of people that don't like MMO's complaining that each new game is just like every other MMO.
I would play a FPS if I wanted to. I like playing MMO's, thus I like MMO combat. I am sick of people that don't like MMO's complaining that each new game is just like every other MMO.
so because we don't like that games haven't evolved past the ...
we stand at 20 pace, you shoot first then i shoot and we repeat till someones dead.
Calling developers lazy is the funniestthing to me. You have no idea how hard they work.
Bioware is anything but lazy. Have you ever developed a AAA mmo? Didn't think so. You wouldn't be using the word lazy if you had. They work their ass off.
Also, calling gamers stupid because we like traditional mmo combat is also hilarious. We must be stupid if we don't like exactly what niche stuff you like. And yeah, the mmofps market is very NICHE.
it "works" because its an easy way for lazy developers to balance the games and shoe horn lazy gamers into specific roles. its a silly concept that needs to be "put down".
Don't you think it's a little arrogant to accuse the developers, who spent years of their life developing a game while they will see little of the revenue flowing back into their pockets once sales start (as about 80% of a game's price flows into the pockets of publishers and distributors), of laziness, because you don't happen to like the system they went for?
Mmyeah...
not at all, its lazy game design. its easy to build scripted loot pinatas around it and thats really the only reason why it hasn't been "put down" well that and the stupid gamers out there who hates WoW but wants the next MMORPG they play to be just like WoW.
Fact remains, media and games follow a commercial logic up to a point, the trinity model is the most successful and it remains so to this day. There is no large angry group of gamers that is rising up to "put down" that model.
And those who do often don't even have a clear idea on how to actually do so, other than vague statements of introducing "more CC" or "scrap roles and let everyone do stuff" (the latter idea doesn't even remove the trinity, it just allows you to switch).
thats why you need more dynamic twitch based combat. add active blocking and dodging because no matter how bad ass your mandalorian armor is if a Ancient Krayt dragon steps on you ... its probably going to hurt A LOT.
I'd be a little bit more careful with the big words if I were you, primarily because you can think a bit further and see it's not all that easy.
Loot pinatas might be common, but you're still gonna need to design models and textures and balance the stats etc. for all those "easy bailout" items you put into your game. If you don't hand over loot, well, that would appear to be a little bit easier hmm.
Secondly, I really don't see FPS gaming being so much more complex to design, I'm not a game developer, but the myriads of brown 10 hour long shooters that are still flooding the market seem to indicate the opposite. Though getting a game like that up and running for each and everyone's sloppy internet connection might be a challenge, if not an impossible one.
Finally, making a system with "dynamic twitch based combat, with active blocking and dodging", might be highly original, but that's about as vague as it gets and heck, after tapping your A&D keys for 100 hours, it might get old too.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Calling developers lazy is the funniestthing to me. You have no idea how hard they work.
Bioware is anything but lazy. Have you ever developed a AAA mmo? Didn't think so. You wouldn't be using the word lazy if you had. They work their ass off.
Also, calling gamers stupid because we like traditional mmo combat is also hilarious. We must be stupid if we don't like exactly what niche stuff you like. And yeah, the mmofps market is very NICHE.
He is saying that the holy trinity system is nothing "out there" or hard to do any more, rather then for example scrap it and find a combat system/style that can be just as good which luckily it's happened but won't be fully experienced until year some time in the year 2012(hopefully) yet that's my opinion after experience.
Holy trinity is now a template to be honest, over all though the devs aren't lazy which is a good thing ha ha because atleast the holy trinity is on par with other mmorpg's holy trinity, wish the they could of add dodging and active blocking would be a very nice touch...eh well.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
it "works" because its an easy way for lazy developers to balance the games and shoe horn lazy gamers into specific roles. its a silly concept that needs to be "put down".
Don't you think it's a little arrogant to accuse the developers, who spent years of their life developing a game while they will see little of the revenue flowing back into their pockets once sales start (as about 80% of a game's price flows into the pockets of publishers and distributors), of laziness, because you don't happen to like the system they went for?
Mmyeah...
not at all, its lazy game design. its easy to build scripted loot pinatas around it and thats really the only reason why it hasn't been "put down" well that and the stupid gamers out there who hates WoW but wants the next MMORPG they play to be just like WoW.
Fact remains, media and games follow a commercial logic up to a point, the trinity model is the most successful and it remains so to this day. There is no large angry group of gamers that is rising up to "put down" that model.
And those who do often don't even have a clear idea on how to actually do so, other than vague statements of introducing "more CC" or "scrap roles and let everyone do stuff" (the latter idea doesn't even remove the trinity, it just allows you to switch).
thats why you need more dynamic twitch based combat. add active blocking and dodging because no matter how bad ass your mandalorian armor is if a Ancient Krayt dragon steps on you ... its probably going to hurt A LOT.
What part of variable internet latency and inadequate server response times is so hard to understand?
you're right we wouldn't want that to be a factor maybe they (future MMO desighers) should go back to EQ1 style ... no wait i remember lagging in that game and having the mob get some free shots. so how about true turn based combat.
I stand in front of you, i bring up my menu use my attack and then click the "finish turn" button. so you then can pull up your menu and make your move, when you're done don't forget to clicke the "finish turn" button.
I mean we wouldn't want latency and server response to decide and outcome right?
I would play a FPS if I wanted to. I like playing MMO's, thus I like MMO combat. I am sick of people that don't like MMO's complaining that each new game is just like every other MMO.
There is nothing wrong with different genres cross pollinating. It's quite healthy, actually.
I love mmos with a passion, and after an extended period of time spent in an mmo with FPS combat, I have found it incredibly difficult to enjoy the rather ancient system found in yesterday's and today's crop of titles. This genre has so much potential that it's a shame we're still seeing the same basic formula used over over again for so many bloody years.
Let's face it, FPS mechanics mixed with the Star Wars IP just makes sense. Imagine using a lightsaber in battle with Mount and Blade's melee system. It would be nothing short of spectacular. However, Bioware was indeed very clear about the direction they were going with SWTOR, so I certainly didn't expect anything more than what I experienced in beta. But still.....imagine.
I am sorry that you're getting sick of the increasing number of complaints with respect to new releases following the tired and old formula, but you may just end up joining the "other side" some time in the not so distant future. More and more gamers seem to want change these days.
The genre is stagnating in the worst way. We need something new and fresh if we hope to continue to enjoy these games in the next ten years. SWTOR is an incredible game that I am going to enjoy for what it is, but the game simply does not have that "new car smell". Sure, it's shiny and new (voice overs added greatly to the game), but I couldn't escape the feeling that this was the same car I just traded in only with a quick maaco paint job and thorough interior cleaning.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Calling developers lazy is the funniestthing to me. You have no idea how hard they work.
Bioware is anything but lazy. Have you ever developed a AAA mmo? Didn't think so. You wouldn't be using the word lazy if you had. They work their ass off.
It really should not need to be pointed out that when someone calls developers 'lazy', they are not saying that they are completely and totally lazy, but rather they are lazy in relation to other developers and/orlazy in relation to what they could have implemented.
I would disagree that compared to other MMO's that BW worked harder in the areas of:
-- UI
-- Character Customization
-- Racial diversity
-- Inovation of Game mechanics
So when someone is saying the Developers are 'lazy', it means that they did not do what others MMO Developers have done, and/or that the TOR developers played it 'safe' in a lot of areas.
Basically, people were hoping that BW would have offered VO and Story, on top of strong MMO elements that exist in other games.
Calling developers lazy is the funniestthing to me. You have no idea how hard they work.
Bioware is anything but lazy. Have you ever developed a AAA mmo? Didn't think so. You wouldn't be using the word lazy if you had. They work their ass off.
It really should not need to be pointed out that when someone calls developers 'lazy', they are not saying that they are completely and totally lazy, but rather they are lazy in relation to other developers and/or
lazy in relation to what they could have implemented.
I would disagree that compared to other MMO's that BW worked harder in the areas of:
-- UI
-- Character Customization
-- Racial diversity
-- Inovation of Game mechanics
So when someone is saying the Developers are 'lazy', it means that they did not do what others MMO Developers have done, and/or that the TOR developers played it 'safe' in a lot of areas.
Hey when you spend 80 million out of your pocket to fund game let me know how much risk you are willing to take. it is easy to point fingers and gamble on other people's money but when your own is on line it is a total different ball game.
But..SWTOR devs did a lot of new things in SWTOR, sorry if they are not to your liking but it doesn't mean that fresh and new ideas do not exist in SWTOR.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
Now I know this is a sticky subject with some people that feel the standard hotbar, tab target, combat mechanics is how an MMO should be made, but I can't help but wonder what this games combat would have been like with FPS combat. Not psuedo FPS, but good FPS with real type ballistics physics. Imagine the kind of fights one might have using this type of game play. It worked for such games SW: Battlefront and Jedi Acedemy - why not SW:ToR?
Gone would be the static, stand in one place playing whack-the-mole. Gone would be the static, stand in one place, shooting it out. Because that is how the current games combat mechanics, which to me, are sad, dull, and boring. Am I the only one that feels FPS combat would have made this game a 100% better and a game that would have been challenging and fun?
I'm not sure if it would be better imo, but propably not much worse at least if properly made. I like the traditional RPG style combat like DA:O, WoW, etc. I also like FPS style if it's a lot more complex than the standard "you have 2 firing modes in your gun + grenades" - Something like Skyrim combat would propably work nicely if well done, but the basic FPS stuff? No, I rather have traditional target lock combat with 30+ abilities in my mmorpg and not just 2 firing modes + grenades.
I guess the popularity of games like Firefall will tell how much people really are looking forward to somekind of RPG-FPS MMO over the traditional RPG stuff. I'm fine with either way as long as it's well made.
Calling developers lazy is the funniestthing to me. You have no idea how hard they work.
Bioware is anything but lazy. Have you ever developed a AAA mmo? Didn't think so. You wouldn't be using the word lazy if you had. They work their ass off.
It really should not need to be pointed out that when someone calls developers 'lazy', they are not saying that they are completely and totally lazy, but rather they are lazy in relation to other developers and/orlazy in relation to what they could have implemented.
I would disagree that compared to other MMO's that BW worked harder in the areas of:
-- UI
-- Character Customization
-- Racial diversity
-- Inovation of Game mechanics
So when someone is saying the Developers are 'lazy', it means that they did not do what others MMO Developers have done, and/or that the TOR developers played it 'safe' in a lot of areas.
Basically, people were hoping that BW would have offered VO and Story, on top of strong MMO elements that exist in other games.
You can't really say what someone else is thinking when they use the word lazy, but I'll take your word for it.
However, by your logic, I think we could call every other developer in the world lazy for not using VO for all of their quest content and just typing it out in text. Really though, they aren't lazy, that just wasn't a focus of their development.
As far as character customization and racial diversity goes, they have very solid design reasons for that outside of just being "lazy." Two words: cut scenes. Character customization in this game has probably created much more work for the developers than any other mmo out there. Every character has to be able to be in a cutscene, and there is work involved in that. So it may be a bad decision in your opinion, but it wasn't made out of laziness. Same with alien races. Everything is voiced over. I would hate to listen to a wookie grumbling throughout the 200 hours of playing that class with subtitles. As much as I would love to play a wookie, it would get old. I think this is a design decision, not "laziness."
Those two things generated more work with this game than they would have with any other mmo because of the cutscenes. Even with the limited character customization, no other mmo dev ever had to deal with this many cutscenes for every possible character created. Laziness does not apply.
As for the UI. I am in strong agreement that the UI is very limited and needs a lot of work. This does not mean that they were lazy. Again, it just means that their time was spent elsewhere. Laziness would imply that they were screwing around and not doing anything because the UI is bad. In fact, they were no doubt working their asses off. They're probably working much more than 40 hours a week for the most part too, especially now this close to launch. Furthermore, they have done a lot of work with the UI while I've been in beta. You should have seen it six months ago. If they were lazy, it wouldn't even work.
Innovation of game mechanics. Fully voiced over story based gameplay. The way that they have done this surely took a LOT of work and it is in fact innovation, even if you don't want to admit it. Someone has to write everything, then it has to be voiced, then it has to be coded into the cutscene. The amount of VO in this game is staggering if you really think about it. That is innovation. The story is innovative in this genre, and it required a lot of work. Again, laziness is not the word to use.
What part of variable internet latency and inadequate server response times is so hard to understand?
you're right we wouldn't want that to be a factor maybe they (future MMO desighers) should go back to EQ1 style ... no wait i remember lagging in that game and having the mob get some free shots. so how about true turn based combat.
I stand in front of you, i bring up my menu use my attack and then click the "finish turn" button. so you then can pull up your menu and make your move, when you're done don't forget to clicke the "finish turn" button.
I mean we wouldn't want latency and server response to decide and outcome right?
So exacerbating a problem solves it?
/facepalm
so we shouldn't innovate because problems might occure?
sorry but when i see games like Planetside able to carry out 100 vs 100 vs 100 player wars and yea there was lag here and there but nothing gamebreaking and nothing constant, then see people whining on the forum "omg what about latency and server response!!!!"
as a response to action oriented mechanics getting put in a game. it just seems like they are clueless.
FPS? You're kidding right? I see you mentioned Planetside in your original post, but was this before or after it became a hackfest? If you want to know what FPS does to an MMO community, try playing Planetside now or even APB, Real Time Worlds or GamerFirst version. FPS does make combat more fun, you are right about that much, however, hackers are involved in screwing them up now more than ever, including BF3 and MW3.
Sorry, but FPS does not belong anywhere near an MMO till someone can figure out a way to prevent aimbot, speed hacks, wall hacks and all that other crap unskilled griefers use in FPS games.
there use to be hacks in DAOC as well, but really why would you need to hack in a MMORPG any half brain dead monkey can be successful with most of the current spam/macro fest combat.
Now I know this is a sticky subject with some people that feel the standard hotbar, tab target, combat mechanics is how an MMO should be made, but I can't help but wonder what this games combat would have been like with FPS combat. Not psuedo FPS, but good FPS with real type ballistics physics. Imagine the kind of fights one might have using this type of game play. It worked for such games SW: Battlefront and Jedi Acedemy - why not SW:ToR?
Gone would be the static, stand in one place playing whack-the-mole. Gone would be the static, stand in one place, shooting it out. Because that is how the current games combat mechanics, which to me, are sad, dull, and boring. Am I the only one that feels FPS combat would have made this game a 100% better and a game that would have been challenging and fun?
Deep end post incoming, grain of salt the size of Texas:
1. FPS combat: at best it would probably be a poor mans battlefront, in explaination it would perhaps carry the pace of the action but the functionality and choices would be cut in half - as for force/light saber users, no hint of jedi academy would come into play at all-and even so, bioware would probably have a stroke trying to implement O.J.P. or E.O.C. varient in a mmo.
2. Consumers: will be a hit and miss, sure bioware will still have name recognition to go by, but the demographic will be less, much less, the reinforced fanbase on the KOTOR side will show extreme prejudice towards a FPS style SWTOR, they already are with the fleet of "why cant they just make KOTOR III" posts.
3. the Engine: Hero engine right? or something updated?, cant say i have any faith at all towards such a engine, esspecially when it comes to a server trying to calculate all those dynamics of people movements, attacks, lasers, deaths, hit detection (god for bid if its body part detection) etc etc etc. dont recall any hero engine being able to do all that, esspecially for a mmo, and with 200+ people in a single zone without a screen slowing to a crawl of 5 frames per second. Slide show Wars anyone?
Your asking if FPS combat would make the game better. already kudos to you for bringing up planetside.
my answer would be yes and no.
Yes, because it would make the game stand on its own far far FAR more than in its current form. not saying its innovative, different, new, revolutionary. none of that, I pointing out that if people were to look between the lists of mmos, and SWTOR is brought up along with its mechanics, they would identify it hands down as SWTOR, and not Wow clone # 212213949390; thus ensuing a long blow hard argument of who are noobs and leets and what mmos were in the olden days.
No, As much as i love bioware, they have no credible portfolio of making such a game, and if they did it would have a mishmash formula of their story style and dialogue wheel that would potentially slow the whole game down entirely in various ways. Mass effect isnt enough despite how the game plays, which is alot of fun, but doesnt bode well if and when melee combat is involved (saber combat for instance) - problem imo being their animations are not dynamic enough, and limited.
Just to end this off, couple videos of the slow, good ol' eye bleeding EOC and OJP combat!
Calling developers lazy is the funniestthing to me. You have no idea how hard they work.
Bioware is anything but lazy. Have you ever developed a AAA mmo? Didn't think so. You wouldn't be using the word lazy if you had. They work their ass off.
Also, calling gamers stupid because we like traditional mmo combat is also hilarious. We must be stupid if we don't like exactly what niche stuff you like. And yeah, the mmofps market is very NICHE.
Actually, when I call a developer lazy, it's based off current standards, not how hard we think they may work in a given day. I always called Blizzard lazy for putting Shaman and Paladins on both factions so they wouldn't have to balance their game as much. Thats based off a lower budget gaming company making 3 faction game with 8 different classes on each side which did just fine with balance issues.
However, maybe lazy is to much of a generalization, we could be more specific and say they are less intelligent.
Honestly every random joe on internet thinks he knows better than game devs. Everyone is an expert these days all they need is a pc and an internet connection. Intelligence is not even an issue here.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
As far as character customization and racial diversity goes, they have very solid design reasons for that outside of just being "lazy." Two words: cut scenes.
I disagree.
Take a look at Dragonagenexus or even skyrimnexus, and see the Player mods that not only appear in the normal game, but also play in the cinematic cutscenes.
These are mods created by non-professionals, without access to nearly the resources that BW has access. There is even some player made content and quests with player made cutscenes.
If it were possible to have a 'TORNexus' mod system, we would likely see dozens of Character Creator improvements -- including different body types and races -- with in days of retail launch (like we say with DAO and Skyrim).
So when I see players able to do such work, it tells me that it was not a Tech or Resource issue with Professional Game developers.
As far as character customization and racial diversity goes, they have very solid design reasons for that outside of just being "lazy." Two words: cut scenes.
I disagree.
Take a look at Dragonagenexus or even skyrimnexus, and see the Player mods that not only appear in the normal game, but also play in the cinematic cutscenes.
These are mods created by non-professionals, without access to nearly the resources that BW has access. There is even some player made content and quests with player made cutscenes.
If it were possible to have a 'TORNexus' mod system, we would likely see dozens of Character Creator improvements -- including different body types and races -- with in days of retail launch (like we say with DAO and Skyrim).
So when I see players able to do such work, it tells me that it was not a Tech or Resource issue with Professional Game developers.
There are cinematic cutscenes in Skyrim like TOR? really? i have sunk over 100 hours and haven't come across one cutscene in Skyrim yet.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
There are cinematic cutscenes in Skyrim like TOR? really? i have sunk over 100 hours and haven't come across one cutscene in Skyrim yet.
You have never seen the 'Killing blow' Cinematic in Skyrim? Really? And you have never seen any cinematics DAO or DA2? Like I said, the mods play in those cinematics.
It disproves the claim that you can only have very specific graphic options, in order to play in BW cinematics.
It demonstrates how simple graphic modding is, and how easily they fit right into the existing cinematics.
Comments
That's a PvP example - PvP almost always benefits from moving, even if the game mechanics don't. If nothing else, it tends to throw the opposition off if you keep getting behind them, jumping in and out of rang, etc. That's still a lot different from what the OP seemed to be referring to, though.
I know its pointless to talk about here, in regards to TOR, but ideas tend to be viral, especially these days. What starts as a forum post can end up in a developer meeting a year later.. Won't have anything to do with TOR, but still, doesn't hurt to discuss it..
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
no way. i hate fps games. I like rpg's for a reason they arent twitch based. I can tolerate fps games and have played them but this is an mmorpg not an mmofps i dont want twitch based fps mechanics or fighter mechanics wher ei have to hit dodge, parry, conter crap either
I want rpg mechanics and thank god thats what bioware did.
So PvP examples don't count or what?
Because even FPS games with PvE, such as global agenda, are rather stationary in that gameplay area, at least a lot of the time, when the mobs don't display special abilities (which some also do in TOR).
The system is perfectly capable of movement, that's what counts.
I don't believe TOR will ever switch over, it would be a stupid move, the equivalent of an NGE changing the core game. A lot of people like this system, so why would they?
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Maybe if they also had the option of 3PS style combat (zoom toggle). They did this with the old Jedi Knight games and it worked amazingly well.
The only issue they'd really have (aside from the re-coding) is with the static boss fights. FPS-style combat just isn't fun unless the boss fights are very dynamic.
The Mmofps crowd is very small. The Fps players won't pay a sub for it when they can go play cod or battlefield without one. The vast majority of mmo players are not skilled shooter players and are not interested in the combat.
Face it, this game would be sacrificing a large amount of it's mass market appeal and become a niche game that would have to be F2P.
Personally, I like the Mmofps genre, but this game is not the place for it.
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Nope it would not work for me as I loathe FPS. I havenever truly enjoyed FPS in anything I just don't see the enjoyment in it. I want to immerse my self in a game world not run around in FPS competing in a prison yard party.
I would play a FPS if I wanted to. I like playing MMO's, thus I like MMO combat. I am sick of people that don't like MMO's complaining that each new game is just like every other MMO.
so because we don't like that games haven't evolved past the ...
we stand at 20 pace, you shoot first then i shoot and we repeat till someones dead.
we don't like MMOs?
Bioware is anything but lazy. Have you ever developed a AAA mmo? Didn't think so. You wouldn't be using the word lazy if you had. They work their ass off.
Also, calling gamers stupid because we like traditional mmo combat is also hilarious. We must be stupid if we don't like exactly what niche stuff you like. And yeah, the mmofps market is very NICHE.
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I'd be a little bit more careful with the big words if I were you, primarily because you can think a bit further and see it's not all that easy.
Loot pinatas might be common, but you're still gonna need to design models and textures and balance the stats etc. for all those "easy bailout" items you put into your game. If you don't hand over loot, well, that would appear to be a little bit easier hmm.
Secondly, I really don't see FPS gaming being so much more complex to design, I'm not a game developer, but the myriads of brown 10 hour long shooters that are still flooding the market seem to indicate the opposite. Though getting a game like that up and running for each and everyone's sloppy internet connection might be a challenge, if not an impossible one.
Finally, making a system with "dynamic twitch based combat, with active blocking and dodging", might be highly original, but that's about as vague as it gets and heck, after tapping your A&D keys for 100 hours, it might get old too.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
He is saying that the holy trinity system is nothing "out there" or hard to do any more, rather then for example scrap it and find a combat system/style that can be just as good which luckily it's happened but won't be fully experienced until year some time in the year 2012(hopefully) yet that's my opinion after experience.
Holy trinity is now a template to be honest, over all though the devs aren't lazy which is a good thing ha ha because atleast the holy trinity is on par with other mmorpg's holy trinity, wish the they could of add dodging and active blocking would be a very nice touch...eh well.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
you're right we wouldn't want that to be a factor maybe they (future MMO desighers) should go back to EQ1 style ... no wait i remember lagging in that game and having the mob get some free shots. so how about true turn based combat.
I stand in front of you, i bring up my menu use my attack and then click the "finish turn" button. so you then can pull up your menu and make your move, when you're done don't forget to clicke the "finish turn" button.
I mean we wouldn't want latency and server response to decide and outcome right?
There is nothing wrong with different genres cross pollinating. It's quite healthy, actually.
I love mmos with a passion, and after an extended period of time spent in an mmo with FPS combat, I have found it incredibly difficult to enjoy the rather ancient system found in yesterday's and today's crop of titles. This genre has so much potential that it's a shame we're still seeing the same basic formula used over over again for so many bloody years.
Let's face it, FPS mechanics mixed with the Star Wars IP just makes sense. Imagine using a lightsaber in battle with Mount and Blade's melee system. It would be nothing short of spectacular. However, Bioware was indeed very clear about the direction they were going with SWTOR, so I certainly didn't expect anything more than what I experienced in beta. But still.....imagine.
I am sorry that you're getting sick of the increasing number of complaints with respect to new releases following the tired and old formula, but you may just end up joining the "other side" some time in the not so distant future. More and more gamers seem to want change these days.
The genre is stagnating in the worst way. We need something new and fresh if we hope to continue to enjoy these games in the next ten years. SWTOR is an incredible game that I am going to enjoy for what it is, but the game simply does not have that "new car smell". Sure, it's shiny and new (voice overs added greatly to the game), but I couldn't escape the feeling that this was the same car I just traded in only with a quick maaco paint job and thorough interior cleaning.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It really should not need to be pointed out that when someone calls developers 'lazy', they are not saying that they are completely and totally lazy, but rather they are lazy in relation to other developers and/orlazy in relation to what they could have implemented.
I would disagree that compared to other MMO's that BW worked harder in the areas of:
-- UI
-- Character Customization
-- Racial diversity
-- Inovation of Game mechanics
So when someone is saying the Developers are 'lazy', it means that they did not do what others MMO Developers have done, and/or that the TOR developers played it 'safe' in a lot of areas.
Basically, people were hoping that BW would have offered VO and Story, on top of strong MMO elements that exist in other games.
Hey when you spend 80 million out of your pocket to fund game let me know how much risk you are willing to take. it is easy to point fingers and gamble on other people's money but when your own is on line it is a total different ball game.
But..SWTOR devs did a lot of new things in SWTOR, sorry if they are not to your liking but it doesn't mean that fresh and new ideas do not exist in SWTOR.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
I'm not sure if it would be better imo, but propably not much worse at least if properly made. I like the traditional RPG style combat like DA:O, WoW, etc. I also like FPS style if it's a lot more complex than the standard "you have 2 firing modes in your gun + grenades" - Something like Skyrim combat would propably work nicely if well done, but the basic FPS stuff? No, I rather have traditional target lock combat with 30+ abilities in my mmorpg and not just 2 firing modes + grenades.
I guess the popularity of games like Firefall will tell how much people really are looking forward to somekind of RPG-FPS MMO over the traditional RPG stuff. I'm fine with either way as long as it's well made.
You can't really say what someone else is thinking when they use the word lazy, but I'll take your word for it.
However, by your logic, I think we could call every other developer in the world lazy for not using VO for all of their quest content and just typing it out in text. Really though, they aren't lazy, that just wasn't a focus of their development.
As far as character customization and racial diversity goes, they have very solid design reasons for that outside of just being "lazy." Two words: cut scenes. Character customization in this game has probably created much more work for the developers than any other mmo out there. Every character has to be able to be in a cutscene, and there is work involved in that. So it may be a bad decision in your opinion, but it wasn't made out of laziness. Same with alien races. Everything is voiced over. I would hate to listen to a wookie grumbling throughout the 200 hours of playing that class with subtitles. As much as I would love to play a wookie, it would get old. I think this is a design decision, not "laziness."
Those two things generated more work with this game than they would have with any other mmo because of the cutscenes. Even with the limited character customization, no other mmo dev ever had to deal with this many cutscenes for every possible character created. Laziness does not apply.
As for the UI. I am in strong agreement that the UI is very limited and needs a lot of work. This does not mean that they were lazy. Again, it just means that their time was spent elsewhere. Laziness would imply that they were screwing around and not doing anything because the UI is bad. In fact, they were no doubt working their asses off. They're probably working much more than 40 hours a week for the most part too, especially now this close to launch. Furthermore, they have done a lot of work with the UI while I've been in beta. You should have seen it six months ago. If they were lazy, it wouldn't even work.
Innovation of game mechanics. Fully voiced over story based gameplay. The way that they have done this surely took a LOT of work and it is in fact innovation, even if you don't want to admit it. Someone has to write everything, then it has to be voiced, then it has to be coded into the cutscene. The amount of VO in this game is staggering if you really think about it. That is innovation. The story is innovative in this genre, and it required a lot of work. Again, laziness is not the word to use.
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so we shouldn't innovate because problems might occure?
sorry but when i see games like Planetside able to carry out 100 vs 100 vs 100 player wars and yea there was lag here and there but nothing gamebreaking and nothing constant, then see people whining on the forum "omg what about latency and server response!!!!"
as a response to action oriented mechanics getting put in a game. it just seems like they are clueless.
there use to be hacks in DAOC as well, but really why would you need to hack in a MMORPG any half brain dead monkey can be successful with most of the current spam/macro fest combat.
Deep end post incoming, grain of salt the size of Texas:
1. FPS combat: at best it would probably be a poor mans battlefront, in explaination it would perhaps carry the pace of the action but the functionality and choices would be cut in half - as for force/light saber users, no hint of jedi academy would come into play at all-and even so, bioware would probably have a stroke trying to implement O.J.P. or E.O.C. varient in a mmo.
2. Consumers: will be a hit and miss, sure bioware will still have name recognition to go by, but the demographic will be less, much less, the reinforced fanbase on the KOTOR side will show extreme prejudice towards a FPS style SWTOR, they already are with the fleet of "why cant they just make KOTOR III" posts.
3. the Engine: Hero engine right? or something updated?, cant say i have any faith at all towards such a engine, esspecially when it comes to a server trying to calculate all those dynamics of people movements, attacks, lasers, deaths, hit detection (god for bid if its body part detection) etc etc etc. dont recall any hero engine being able to do all that, esspecially for a mmo, and with 200+ people in a single zone without a screen slowing to a crawl of 5 frames per second. Slide show Wars anyone?
Your asking if FPS combat would make the game better. already kudos to you for bringing up planetside.
my answer would be yes and no.
Yes, because it would make the game stand on its own far far FAR more than in its current form. not saying its innovative, different, new, revolutionary. none of that, I pointing out that if people were to look between the lists of mmos, and SWTOR is brought up along with its mechanics, they would identify it hands down as SWTOR, and not Wow clone # 212213949390; thus ensuing a long blow hard argument of who are noobs and leets and what mmos were in the olden days.
No, As much as i love bioware, they have no credible portfolio of making such a game, and if they did it would have a mishmash formula of their story style and dialogue wheel that would potentially slow the whole game down entirely in various ways. Mass effect isnt enough despite how the game plays, which is alot of fun, but doesnt bode well if and when melee combat is involved (saber combat for instance) - problem imo being their animations are not dynamic enough, and limited.
Just to end this off, couple videos of the slow, good ol' eye bleeding EOC and OJP combat!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMiIzi0dsRk&feature=related OJP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frKyLObgOeU&feature=endscreen&NR=1 OJP Chronicles ,5 minute duel(s)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPiu-nEoIlw&feature=related EOC
Honestly every random joe on internet thinks he knows better than game devs. Everyone is an expert these days all they need is a pc and an internet connection. Intelligence is not even an issue here.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
I disagree.
Take a look at Dragonagenexus or even skyrimnexus, and see the Player mods that not only appear in the normal game, but also play in the cinematic cutscenes.
These are mods created by non-professionals, without access to nearly the resources that BW has access. There is even some player made content and quests with player made cutscenes.
If it were possible to have a 'TORNexus' mod system, we would likely see dozens of Character Creator improvements -- including different body types and races -- with in days of retail launch (like we say with DAO and Skyrim).
So when I see players able to do such work, it tells me that it was not a Tech or Resource issue with Professional Game developers.
There are cinematic cutscenes in Skyrim like TOR? really? i have sunk over 100 hours and haven't come across one cutscene in Skyrim yet.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
You have never seen the 'Killing blow' Cinematic in Skyrim? Really? And you have never seen any cinematics DAO or DA2? Like I said, the mods play in those cinematics.
It disproves the claim that you can only have very specific graphic options, in order to play in BW cinematics.
It demonstrates how simple graphic modding is, and how easily they fit right into the existing cinematics.