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General: Different Perceptions of RMT

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  • Druid_UKDruid_UK Member Posts: 58

    Serious RMT traders ruin gameplay for others by cheating, spamming, farming and exploiting. Devils advocate on this one is wrong.

    -----
    Pay-to-Win / F2P will be the death of real gaming, Boycott it !!

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832

    Just because someone isn't Jack-the-Ripper .....doesn't mean that thier proffesion is legitimate or healthy for consumers or industry sectors.

    I'm sure there are counter-fitters out there who are nice to orphans too...

    Doesn't make counter-fitting ok.

     

     

  • XexvXexv Member Posts: 308

    I read the article with an open mind but neither the interview or the charity visit managed to change my perceptions on RMT.


    Originally posted by adam_nox
    good article, I'm afraid it's wisdom is lost on this crowd though.

    Please expand.

  • KyutaSyukoKyutaSyuko Member UncommonPosts: 288

    To this, Ken wrote,

    “We strongly believe that what is obtained in-game by the player, belongs to the player and he/she can trade it at their own discretion.

    Casual gamers get the chance to play with the big boys (hard core gamers) through this trading, by getting up-to-par items through virtual currency or real world currency.

    The idea of being able to cash out your virtual goods also creates more interest towards the game, drawing more players and more in-game time spent. It's no surprise that Diablo 3 is adopting in-game asset trading.”

    There is one problem I find with this comment.  In most ToS it states that the game and all property contained within (to include items and currency obtained in game) belong to the company.  So it doesn't matter what they believe or how strongly they believe it, they're still violating the ToS and engaging in unauthorized transactions.



     

  • k11keeperk11keeper Member UncommonPosts: 1,048

    Originally posted by Xexv

    I read the article with an open mind but neither the interview or the charity visit managed to change my perceptions on RMT.

     




    Originally posted by adam_nox

    good article, I'm afraid it's wisdom is lost on this crowd though.




     

    Please expand.

    My thoughts too. Please explain your statement. I have backed up my view in an earlier post. My view is cheating is cheating. It's great they are doing charity work but their entire business model is designed around cheating. MMORPGs are games and cheaters can ruin games so I will not condone their behavior. Can you explain why that is so unwise? I realize they are not as bad as say drug dealers, or organized crime lords but since when was "there not as bad as these guys" or "well hey they do charity work" ever been good enough to excuse people from breaking the rules?

     

     

  • MacroHardMacroHard Member Posts: 104

    RMT is wrong.  It takes away from the game and affects balance in more ways than economy alone.. and even if it didn't, the importance of in-game economy can't be stressed enough.  I saw some post saying it would take millions of dollars to combat RMT and I couldn't disagree more.  Sure, if game systems have to be redesigned than that decision will always be a costly one.  If developers instead took the time and effort to come up with new in-game economies that restricted RMT so much that it wasn't a lucrative choice for anyone who isn't an actual in-game player, than they'll find their way to other titles where RMT wasn't planned for or the developers intend to make money any way they can.. and if that ultimately means a detrimental experience to their real players, so be it.




    So how do companies combat RMT in a cost effective manner?  I would love to shed some insight right here and now on my suggestions but I'm hopeful that my hard work will one day pay off in my own personal project.  All i can say is: nothing's impossible.




    Regarding the psychology of it all: I'll never understand all players who wish to always take the quickest route, whether that route is alien to the game or not.  I can't jump to wild accusations saying they are always the players with horrible attitudes and whatnot, but I wonder how much truth would be behind such an assertion?  By purchasing items and stuff through third parties (whether the 3rd parties use 3rd party software or not) consumers are still directly affecting economies.  It's not outside software that's the real issue, nor is it those who want to make real money off of playing games.  I think more attention should be given to those players that will gladly skip game content to satisfy their end-game urges.  That method is for cheaters who only think about themselves and obviously have no inclination to give a crap about the ramifications of their actions.. or maybe they are 12, don't appreciate money because they have never held a job, whatever the case.  If my future title comes to light (no need to remind me how small the chances), it'll be safe to say there will be no launch until the in-game systems as a whole enforce the impedement of outside economies negatively impacting the experience for the real players who play for fun, fame, you name it.. but who play by the rules of the game because they have consideration for their fellow player and wish for a great experience for all, not just themselves.  This article irritated me a lot because it defended RMT practices as if they have every right to exist.. which they don't.









     




     

  • MacroHardMacroHard Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by adam_nox

    good article, I'm afraid it's wisdom is lost on this crowd though.


     

    And by this crowd, I'm gonna take that to mean "those that give a crap about their gaming experience and others' as well."  Don't take me the wrong way, though, I'm sure this point is lost on YOU.

  • Aison2Aison2 Member CommonPosts: 624
    I think many have a misconception what the TOS means.
    It's not "you abide to our wishes or we kill you"
    It's just "You agree that we can kick you out of our game if you do what we don't want"

    The farmers are perfectly playing in accordance to that. Risking their Accs to be able to do what they want and the company doesn't.


    Don't start bullshiting about equal chances. Reality is there is zero equality. Some have jobless friends who provide them stuff for free (old guy, who makes everything for the guild) some have no job themselves and can play all day. Other working people have more money but less time. The natural way of things is that people have different circumstances and they trade because of that.

    I can guess why many rage. Just like in real world the more well off people cruise ahead while they waste their lives grinding virtual items.

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • PhelcherPhelcher Member CommonPosts: 1,053
    One has to question MMORPG.coms motives for such a backwards article. Gold farmers are the bane of nearly anyone"s online gameplay. Yet .. MMORPG.com wants to befriend these companies and pander to them?

    Who... or what MMO community managver would even think of playing Devil's advocet on such a topic.

    Specially since the article is poorly devised and almost entirely laughable in premis. That non-cheaters should learn to love gold farmers because with all the illegal money the fleece from us, they visit orphanages..?

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • SuraknarSuraknar Member UncommonPosts: 852

    Well, I am sorry as well intentioned your article maybe, RMT is not only perceived badly it is bad, period.

    While OffGamers may be a middle man, and may have some nice goals, and be doing some charity which just gets us in the heart.

    I see in this interview all of the elements that would convince a westerner of all the best intentions.

    The biggest concern here is also that now "Professional RMT" companies act as a middle man. So they can provide services to the avergae American Player and enhance their experience, at the expense and on the backs of poor people who do the farming while masking them since this Middle man is what the consumer sees.

    But what is there to prove to you that some of the Sellers of Gold are not actually the Guards of this opperation?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoners-internet-gaming-scam

    Do they really think that we are so gullible?

    You cannot justify an action as good when its very existance is a fraud and illegal.

    They provide services for games that specifically prohibit such activities in their TOS and EULA agreements.

    This is no different than buying stolen goods on the street through a middle man, corner shop, instead of directly from the theif. Everyone is guilty from the theif to the buyer.

    And finally, they have as goal to have games live off from gaming, yes this is partially true, but they forgot to tell you that these gamers are solelly located in Asia for the most part, the area where the middle man is based off.

    Over there, there are offices where young people go to work every day in 8 hour shifts log on to their assigned MMO, havethe most comfortable chairs best possible Computers, and play all day to generate in game income which the company they work for then sells as services to non Asian gamers willing to pay for them.

    And the job pays better than working at a local manufacture, many of these young farmers were able to get married and buy nice houses since the money comes in from abroad. So yes they are making a living, but that will not be the average Amercian player or Average European Player because someone has to be the Customer in all of this, someone has to be the buyer.

    There are countless News Feeds and Live Interviews about this on Yutube already.

    This article is really gullible and naive.

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
  • IkedaIkeda Member RarePosts: 2,751

    Anyone who is anti-RMT never had to buy more than 3-4 epic riding mounts in WoW.  Buying Gold was an incredible life saver.  I will say that what it started as, and what is has become.  And if I had to go back and buy epic flying blah blah blah for the old areas... I would have BOUGHT more gold to do so for all my toons.

    I freely give to friends and guildies, anything they need.  Cash sometimes flows.. but that's why games think they're so clever by making some of the rewards obscene.  No thanks.

  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318

    Originally posted by Ikeda

    Anyone who is anti-RMT never had to buy more than 3-4 epic riding mounts in WoW.  Buying Gold was an incredible life saver.  I will say that what it started as, and what is has become.  And if I had to go back and buy epic flying blah blah blah for the old areas... I would have BOUGHT more gold to do so for all my toons.

    I freely give to friends and guildies, anything they need.  Cash sometimes flows.. but that's why games think they're so clever by making some of the rewards obscene.  No thanks.

    So what. If you want to play the game, play it fairly. Everyone has to buy their stuff in these games. Its part of the game.

  • IkedaIkeda Member RarePosts: 2,751

    It's fair.  I worked for my money. I paid them.  They worked to get the gold.  They sold me the gold.  They obviously have time that I don't have or am willing to sacrifice from my family.

    At the end of the day, if I buy a lvl 10000000000 epic super flying mount that shoots rainbows out it's ass and you work 100 hrs to do the same.... it's none of your damned business if I got mine with RMT or earned it in game.  

    FFS, the take home from this, is cry me a freakin' river that I have earned every penny in my bank and get to spend it how I say.  If I wanna buy 10K gold, that's my problem.

  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318

    Originally posted by Ikeda

    It's fair.  I worked for my money. I paid them.  They worked to get the gold.  They sold me the gold.  They obviously have time that I don't have or am willing to sacrifice from my family.

    At the end of the day, if I buy a lvl 10000000000 epic super flying mount that shoots rainbows out it's ass and you work 100 hrs to do the same.... it's none of your damned business if I got mine with RMT or earned it in game.  

    FFS, the take home from this, is cry me a freakin' river that I have earned every penny in my bank and get to spend it how I say.  If I wanna buy 10K gold, that's my problem.

    No, thats not fair. To anyone else. 

  • IkedaIkeda Member RarePosts: 2,751

    Originally posted by Moirae

    No, thats not fair. To anyone else. 

    Go out, get a job, earn some money, do it too.  No one's stopping you.  

    Oh it's not fair, oh rich people have money, oh we're down trodden by the man.

    I'm not a communist or a socialist.  I'm a pure-100% capitalist and it makes the world go round.

  • ddz1ddz1 Member Posts: 14

    we breath air.

    fish breath water.

    stock market is gambling.

    used cars were already bought.

    a sale of an item is set by the same people that put a price on the item.

  • MacroHardMacroHard Member Posts: 104



    Originally posted by Ikeda




    Originally posted by Moirae

    No, thats not fair. To anyone else. 

    Go out, get a job, earn some money, do it too.  No one's stopping you.  

    Oh it's not fair, oh rich people have money, oh we're down trodden by the man.

    I'm not a communist or a socialist.  I'm a pure-100% capitalist and it makes the world go round.






     





    the world was already going "round" just fine before the advent of capitalism.  It's not about being able to afford to spend the extra money on a game, you twit, it's about the principle.  RMT ruins games no matter what you say because my proof is history.  If you don't like playing an entire game do the rest of it's population a favor and quit.  Your ignorant argument of "anyone can do it" is what separates you low-lifes from the rest of us in the first place.  "NEW HACKS AREN'T CHEATING CUZ I D/Led THEM AND SO CAN YOU THEFEFORE EVERYTHING IS FINE"... not to the people who don't suck.

  • IkedaIkeda Member RarePosts: 2,751

    Originally posted by MacroHard



    the world was already going "round" just fine before the advent of capitalism.  It's not about being able to afford to spend the extra money on a game, you twit, it's about the principle.  RMT ruins games no matter what you say because my proof is history.  If you don't like playing an entire game do the rest of it's population a favor and quit.

    It's a principle imposed on people by other people.  Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean others can't like it.  Don't impose your self-righteous views on me.  

    And it has nothing to do with not liking to play "an entire game".  I'm just not willing to waste my time on grinding out stuff for cash.  I'll pay people some cash to do so for me.

    Moving on...

    BTW, Macro's are for people who can't play fairly so do the rest of the game population a favor and quit.

    LOL, I just read your edit.  Low-lifes... LOL.

  • MacroHardMacroHard Member Posts: 104



    Originally posted by Ikeda




    Originally posted by MacroHard





    the world was already going "round" just fine before the advent of capitalism.  It's not about being able to afford to spend the extra money on a game, you twit, it's about the principle.  RMT ruins games no matter what you say because my proof is history.  If you don't like playing an entire game do the rest of it's population a favor and quit.

    It's a principle imposed on people by other people.  Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean others can't like it.  Don't impose your self-righteous views on me.  

    And it has nothing to do with not liking to play "an entire game".  I'm just not willing to waste my time on grinding out stuff for cash.  I'll pay people some cash to do so for me.

    Moving on...

    BTW, Macro's are for people who can't play fairly so do the rest of the game population a favor and quit.

    LOL, I just read your edit.  Low-lifes... LOL.






     





    I've never bound a macro for a game outside of maybe once for a chat function of some sort.. My user name is a play on Microsoft and the fact that it's not obvious to you is why I needn't argue anymore.  And one more thing before I ignore you permanently: it's not my principles you violate when you purchase 3rd party stuff.. it's the ToS.  Now I'll let the rest of the intellectuals have their way with you if they so desire.



     

  • IkedaIkeda Member RarePosts: 2,751

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    You really can't reason with someone who is willing to lie and cheat.  That is what RMT is all about.  People who buy into RMT don't care if they aren't playing by the rules, if they lie about it, justify cheating with shallow rationalizations, or anything else immoral.  They are only concerned about themselves and that is what RMT is all about.  That attitude, along with the immoral and illegal activities that support it, are what makes it a detriment to community gaming.

    .... so what your saying is I'm lying and cheating, and not playing by the rules ... over and over.

    Get over yourselves.  It's a game.  A GAME.  I don't bot, I don't macro, I don't exploit (most recently the ToR stuff), I don't do any of that crap.  I buy Gold that I could otherwise grind out in a couple of weeks time.  My time is valuable.

    I'm sorry that when you look back on your life on your deathbed you'll say to yourself ... man, I should have spent 40 more hours grinding for gold for a mount that will only be around as long as the game... how well did that work for you SWG fans out there?    Man, if only I spent another 120 hours into WoW I could score that Epic Tier 8532 armor.... which will be outdated with nexts months patch and the release of 8533 armor....

    While I am willing to admit there is a HUGE darkside to RMT, at the end of the day, it's a GAME.  

    But if you really wanna know...

    my kid wants money, I make them do some chores for said money, they do their chores, they get the cash.  What exactly do you define as a chore?  Well dishes, clearing the table, cleaning the room, babysitting, walking the pets.  ALL STUFF that I COULD do, but choose to outsource.

    How could you say no to:

     


    Originally posted by MacroHard

     And one more thing before I ignore you permanently: 

    Oh noes, I'm being ignored by someone who created their account since the new year.   If you can't take disagreement, have fun with life cause it's going to be a terrible one.  Oh, Macro Hard... yea.. word play... so obvious.  Just like sarcasm in text form.

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910

    "We don't break the rules, we just make it easier for players to break the rules. We have a philosophical point of view on properties that are legally owned by developers that also coincides with us making money...but just ignore that; it's OK for us to do what we do."

    I'm sure there was more to the article than that, but that's pretty much what I got out of it.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Member UncommonPosts: 4,775

    I have to admit, you did manage to change my perceptions a bit. I once percieved MMORPG as a site that would ban or warn players about posting links to free shards, information about where to buy from RMT and such and yet here we are reading an article about an RMT site that MMORPG is promoting. 

    Great........ just great.......... some money you should just say no to. 

    So today it's OffGamers, tommorow it's what? "DamnCheater's aren't so bad, they changed my perceptions on cheating!"

     

  • PhelcherPhelcher Member CommonPosts: 1,053

    Originally posted by Ikeda

    Anyone who is anti-RMT never had to buy more than 3-4 epic riding mounts in WoW.  Buying Gold was an incredible life saver.  I will say that what it started as, and what is has become.  And if I had to go back and buy epic flying blah blah blah for the old areas... I would have BOUGHT more gold to do so for all my toons.

    I freely give to friends and guildies, anything they need.  Cash sometimes flows.. but that's why games think they're so clever by making some of the rewards obscene.  No thanks.




     

    lol...

    So you freely admit you're a failure, then proceed to lecture the rest of us, because of your own inability of perserverence, challenge & patience..?

    Lets face it, your actions are that of a child and are unable to acertain the subject matter @ hand. You are only looking at yourself and what you want, not what other have done and whats taking place.

     

    I am quite sure nearly anyone who've read your post, has pity on you.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,445

    The funny thing about perceptions is that mostly they are right. If this were not true we would spend our lives making one mistake after another. I have made some rubbish decisions in my time, but by and large if it looks, sounds and tastes wrong then it is.


     


    Oh and not a word on how cash shops encourage gold farming, we don't want to talk about that with so many top MMO's using them. How about that for the next Devils Advocate?!

  • JuicemanJuiceman Member Posts: 167

    ummm, is the banner for this article moving/breathing at me, or is it just me.  Good article, kind of "trippy" though.

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