At EvE yadda yadda: from who exactly you want to be buying time gamecards???? Do you even read what you write or it just flows naturally?? So CCP has a system that allows players to trade game assets inside the game infrastrucure providing players with a fair, safe and legal way to do so, and you compare it to RMT companies?? Man...i..i...oh Jesus our Lord...just shut it plz.
I read it. I just don't necessarily feel that I have ANY reason to submit to the opinions of people on here. Do you speed when you drive? Opps your actually breakin the LAW! Do you buy gold? Oh, you breaking a ToS. It's laughable. Speeding can KILL people, RMT at most (if EVERYONE did it) could possibly inflate a market. But any game that monitors it's economy can EASILY fix this.
Now... the entire thread started because this is something that is going INTO effect for Blizzard's Diablo 3. People can go in game, grind an item, then sell it in the auction house for either in-game cash or real cash. Blizzard is going to take their cut of both. Thus, it's acceptable. Bioware has a game where it requires a ton of cash to have superfluous (non-combat, no effect on the community) travel options. JUST on travel it's something like 550K. Blizzard did theirs because they realized RMT has a place in gaming, no matter how much some of the community dislike it. Bioware CHOSE not to do so with their. Putting a little blip in their TOS saying "it's not allowed" simply because they were too lazy to include basic functions (like Eve, and soon Blizzard) are losing their cut.
If it doesn't affect others (and most certainly travel options in games DO NOT), I truly feel it's fair game. It's not like I don't self-impose things. I buy gold for mounts, and occasionally it gets used to assist on crafting. I buy mats (which people sell) thus others profit off of my buying gold as well. And the world goes round.
P.S. To the poster above, you use the baseball example. You mean like how the Yankee's have one of the best funded teams and tend to win the world series over and over and over and over?
Haha exactly. Tell me its fair for Tiger Woods to have been raised playing golf and be able to buy the best sports equipment, the best training, play on the best courses, and spend 40 hours a week playing golf. Athletes sink cash into their sport all the time to help them "level" up. Is that fair?
As far as games go, I have a 30" monitor. I have a fast computer. I have reliable Internet. I have an office where I am free from distraction. All these little advantages cost money, but somehow they're all acceptable to the previous poster. What makes buying a weapon in-game any different? Well the truth is they aren't reasoning this through, they are just reacting to what they "feel" should be the case. One day they'll grow up, get a job and all this will make more sense.
For that matter, show us the prize at the end that this "level playing field" get us. MMOs are just entertainment, not accomplishments. I played UO from 1997 until 2006 and what did it get me?
I compare it going to the movie theater. Everyone pays to see the movie, but just because someone else opted to increase their enjoyment by also buying a coke and popcorn doesn't mean I need to get my panties in a wad and scream "not fair!" THAT and what happens in a video game has zero moral gravity anyway. So what if someone runs a bot. SO WHAT. It's a frigging game. Anyone who loses sleep at night because they think the player next to them has more gold in their bank box and maybe they didn't "earn" it through game labor ( maybe they earned it by flipping burgers in the real world ) - these people are pathetic and they need to get a life. People need to stop being jealous and grow up.
Buying a drink and popcorn at a movie is not circumventing the movie theater's policies in any way. These are two very different issues. RMT'ing is CHEATING. A game loses its value when other players cheat to get ahead. It also screws up game economies, so it does affect those who like to enjoy a game normally. If you can't play by the rules, you shouldn't be playing at all.
You can try to justify it all you like. Feel better about yourself by claiming other people are the problem. Really, though, if you have enough of a problem with the game's system that you have to cheat, maybe you should be asking yourself why you're even playing it.
In games that allow it, thats fine, but those that dont...why would you even bother?
I agree with some of your points Ikeda like the game designs but thats a problem with the game and personally i just dont play or encourage those games. Again about Eve i dont agree with their practice either their on the same level as blizzard , their fine with it as long as they get their cut.
Thats why certain games that will come out will change the way the old MMO works and its about time a compagny actually tries to make the games fun instead of a grindfest. I think games like wow got used to the gold sellers and jacked the price accordingly, but then again i never played it and never will.
The gold you buy though does effect others. Without buyers there wont be as much sellers ive lived it in FFXI, eventually when there wasnt enough demand and they got pushed too hard by SOE the price of buying new games to get a couple of accnts set up just wasnt worth what they were making selling gold.
Its a big issue that will not go away by itself people need to take actions and talk with their money. Unfortunatly too many people think its no big deal.Ive played enough F2p where they were rampant and made it impossible to play normally a good exemple is Silkroad online. Please check a few videos im sure there are some on youtube, It got to the point people couldnt even log into the game. I think the same thing happend in Aion and look how well it did ( certainly didint help that it was infested with boters and farmers )
if nothing is done to keep them out and make sure that kind of buisness is not profitable in p2p games then they will disapear slowly.
At EvE yadda yadda: from who exactly you want to be buying time gamecards???? Do you even read what you write or it just flows naturally?? So CCP has a system that allows players to trade game assets inside the game infrastrucure providing players with a fair, safe and legal way to do so, and you compare it to RMT companies?? Man...i..i...oh Jesus our Lord...just shut it plz.
I read it. I just don't necessarily feel that I have ANY reason to submit to the opinions of people on here. Do you speed when you drive? Opps your actually breakin the LAW! Do you buy gold? Oh, you breaking a ToS. It's laughable. Speeding can KILL people, RMT at most (if EVERYONE did it) could possibly inflate a market. But any game that monitors it's economy can EASILY fix this.
Now... the entire thread started because this is something that is going INTO effect for Blizzard's Diablo 3. People can go in game, grind an item, then sell it in the auction house for either in-game cash or real cash. Blizzard is going to take their cut of both. Thus, it's acceptable. Bioware has a game where it requires a ton of cash to have superfluous (non-combat, no effect on the community) travel options. JUST on travel it's something like 550K. Blizzard did theirs because they realized RMT has a place in gaming, no matter how much some of the community dislike it. Bioware CHOSE not to do so with their. Putting a little blip in their TOS saying "it's not allowed" simply because they were too lazy to include basic functions (like Eve, and soon Blizzard) are losing their cut.
If it doesn't affect others (and most certainly travel options in games DO NOT), I truly feel it's fair game. It's not like I don't self-impose things. I buy gold for mounts, and occasionally it gets used to assist on crafting. I buy mats (which people sell) thus others profit off of my buying gold as well. And the world goes round.
So let's let sports players take drugs to enhance their play. It means they aren't playing fair, but so what. The point is the end, not the means right? Sorry, but thats wrong. Not all life is about winning, and not everything is acceptable. Cheating is cheating. It's not a good thing to cheat just because you can do it. No, not for any reason.
So let's let sports players take drugs to enhance their play. It means they aren't playing fair, but so what. The point is the end, not the means right? Sorry, but thats wrong. Not all life is about winning, and not everything is acceptable. Cheating is cheating. It's not a good thing to cheat just because you can do it. No, not for any reason.
And you're ENTIRELY missing my point. Unlike these sports stars or athletes... THIS IS A GAME. A GAME. A game that quite like will not make it 5-10 years in the current market. So at the END of the day, the point of the game is to have fun while it's around. (Some) RMT allows the end-user to experience the game in his/her own way. You like to grind cash. That's cool. I think it's a waste of valuable game PLAYING time. SO I do my thing.
It's perfectly ok not to see eye to eye on this. Just understand that it's your POSITION and not necessarily that you're right and I'm wrong. It's simply not so conclusively black and white.
"No, not for any reason". Company makes the cure for cancer. You find out you have cancer and are terminally ill (gunna die REAL soon/fast). Only this drug can save you. Cancer company says, "Oh, well you're terminally ill, you'll pay extra". Let's say 1 million dollars. That's not fair. Not fair in at all. Your options are then to circumvent the system or die. No, not for any reason. I'm just saying that SOMETIMES based on PERSPECTIVE right and wrong is VERY ambiguous.
So let's let sports players take drugs to enhance their play. It means they aren't playing fair, but so what. The point is the end, not the means right? Sorry, but thats wrong. Not all life is about winning, and not everything is acceptable. Cheating is cheating. It's not a good thing to cheat just because you can do it. No, not for any reason.
And you're ENTIRELY missing my point. Unlike these sports stars or athletes... THIS IS A GAME. A GAME. A game that quite like will not make it 5-10 years in the current market. So at the END of the day, the point of the game is to have fun while it's around. (Some) RMT allows the end-user to experience the game in his/her own way. You like to grind cash. That's cool. I think it's a waste of valuable game PLAYING time. SO I do my thing.
It's perfectly ok not to see eye to eye on this. Just understand that it's your POSITION and not necessarily that you're right and I'm wrong. It's simply not so conclusively black and white.
"No, not for any reason". Company makes the cure for cancer. You find out you have cancer and are terminally ill (gunna die REAL soon/fast). Only this drug can save you. Cancer company says, "Oh, well you're terminally ill, you'll pay extra". Let's say 1 million dollars. That's not fair. Not fair in at all. Your options are then to circumvent the system or die. No, not for any reason. I'm just saying that SOMETIMES based on PERSPECTIVE right and wrong is VERY ambiguous.
In what world is sports NOT a game? They're even called a game in commercials, and by coaches.
What level playing field? if some 20 year old nerd with no job and some 25 year old with a full time job were playing a game, gamer A has considerably more time to play, how is that a level playing field?
For that matter, show us the prize at the end that this "level playing field" get us. MMOs are just entertainment, not accomplishments. I played UO from 1997 until 2006 and what did it get me?
I compare it going to the movie theater. Everyone pays to see the movie, but just because someone else opted to increase their enjoyment by also buying a coke and popcorn doesn't mean I need to get my panties in a wad and scream "not fair!" THAT and what happens in a video game has zero moral gravity anyway. So what if someone runs a bot. SO WHAT. It's a frigging game. Anyone who loses sleep at night because they think the player next to them has more gold in their bank box and maybe they didn't "earn" it through game labor ( maybe they earned it by flipping burgers in the real world ) - these people are pathetic and they need to get a life. People need to stop being jealous and grow up.
this once again goes back to, and I hate repeating this crap over and over again but wth: you don't know what you're talking about. Let me expand:
to the first comment about level playing fields: those with less time to play a game will have less chances to do the same things as another person with more time. The playing field is level right from the beginning because if a potential player begins a game they have already analyzed their time issues/limitations... well the smart ones anyway. Why should people who put less time in the game than another be equally rewarded?
Regarding all the green text: your movie theater comparison is void of similarity to what we are talking about. Everyone knows that what people eat in the theater is their business and it has a less than significant impact on the movie for everyone. Then you go on to say "it's just a game, get over it." Well, you obviously haven't connected all the dots (a game 1st graders are able to comprehend). The dots are this: virtual economies have a significant impact on player base. From there we connect: player base has a significant effect on game quality. If each server has 10 people over 30,000,000 sq/km due to player loss because as a whole people are unsatisfied with the "pay to win" economy implementation, we have what is known as a "decrease" in game quality.
I give credit to those that work harder for something than me and are rewarded for their efforts. I don't go looking for a way to cheat them out of it or to further myself through the use of unintended means to a process.
Seriously, watch out for these people: they are damaging to way more than themselves and don't even realize it.
In what world is sports NOT a game? They're even called a game in commercials, and by coaches.
The point in which the players get paid to play. Oh yes. Very much not a game anymore. From high school on up. It has turned from being a fun past time to something that churns out new "professionals" every year. But then, we are back to the "unfair" treatment. As well all know or have experienced, certain groups can get preferential treatment. (say for example a school who spend 10,000 dollars on new football gear over a mathlete who has to sell his kidney to go to a state tournament)
If you and I go and play basketball... game. If you and I get paid to go play 5 games and win as many as we can... not game.
And you're ENTIRELY missing my point. Unlike these sports stars or athletes... THIS IS A GAME. A GAME. A game that quite like will not make it 5-10 years in the current market. So at the END of the day, the point of the game is to have fun while it's around. (Some) RMT allows the end-user to experience the game in his/her own way. You like to grind cash. That's cool. I think it's a waste of valuable game PLAYING time. SO I do my thing.
1) this kid attempts to use his own assumptions regarding average mmo longevity is laughable. He doesn't know when the majority of a player base will abandon any game much less for what reason (besides RMT). He admittedly doesn't care that his actions can negatively impact the game or is too limited in brain capacity to understand why.
2) "I think it's a wate of valuable game PLAYING time. SO I do my thing." That's just it, he does his own thing to compensate and gain advantage through short-cutting not defined by in-game rules.
I hope he buys a new game and throw $500 at it only to have his account permabanned the following day due to ToS violation. Either that or I hope I play with as few people like him as possible. There are plenty of subpar "f2Ps" out there and I wish these kinds of people would take their business there. I also hope other future developers take RMT into consideration if they wish to have their player bases stay intact for long periods of time. I bet it was a capitalist that said: "It's cheaper to keep a customer than to find a new one." HOLY ECONOMICS, BATMAN!
It's perfectly ok not to see eye to eye on this. Just understand that it's your POSITION and not necessarily that you're right and I'm wrong. It's simply not so conclusively black and white.
Actually it IS that you're wrong, because the games' developers say so. They set the rules of the games. Again, no amount of self-justification will change this.
It's perfectly ok not to see eye to eye on this. Just understand that it's your POSITION and not necessarily that you're right and I'm wrong. It's simply not so conclusively black and white.
Actually it IS that you're wrong, because the games' developers say so. They set the rules of the games. Again, no amount of self-justification will change this.
Might as well give it up...these guys are never going to see things our way.
We see these as GAMES, these guys see them more as "interactive entertainment services" (like a movie where you click a mouse) so anything that enhances thier entertainment is ok...cheating, RMT, etc.
You can't win an arguement with them about it because to them, you aren't even talking about the same things.
Me, I see RMT as the equivalent of bringing a corked bat to your kids Little League game... pathetic.
Buying a drink and popcorn at a movie is not circumventing the movie theater's policies in any way. These are two very different issues. RMT'ing is CHEATING. A game loses its value when other players cheat to get ahead. It also screws up game economies, so it does affect those who like to enjoy a game normally. If you can't play by the rules, you shouldn't be playing at all.
You can try to justify it all you like. Feel better about yourself by claiming other people are the problem. Really, though, if you have enough of a problem with the game's system that you have to cheat, maybe you should be asking yourself why you're even playing it.
In games that allow it, thats fine, but those that dont...why would you even bother?
Tell me something. If I spent the last week farming a given mob and collecting up gold, how is that gold affecting the game economy adversely on another character, but not on MY character?
How does it screw up the game economy when player A sells player B 500 gold, but not when player A who is a friend of player B gives player B 500 gold? What happens when player A simply spends his 500 gold and distributes it to 10 other people? You have absolutely NO context for what the economy would be like if there was no RMT or not. Games fail because they suck, not because there aren't enough jacked-booted gamemasters stepping on heads and intervening in every player transaction because they suspect the transaction has an unacceptable motive. This is all very laughable.
Buying a drink and popcorn at a movie is not circumventing the movie theater's policies in any way. These are two very different issues. RMT'ing is CHEATING. A game loses its value when other players cheat to get ahead. It also screws up game economies, so it does affect those who like to enjoy a game normally. If you can't play by the rules, you shouldn't be playing at all.
You can try to justify it all you like. Feel better about yourself by claiming other people are the problem. Really, though, if you have enough of a problem with the game's system that you have to cheat, maybe you should be asking yourself why you're even playing it.
In games that allow it, thats fine, but those that dont...why would you even bother?
Tell me something. If I spent the last week farming a given mob and collecting up gold, how is that gold affecting the game economy adversely on another character, but not on MY character?
How does it screw up the game economy when player A sells player B 500 gold, but not when player A who is a friend of player B gives player B 500 gold? What happens when player A simply spends his 500 gold and distributes it to 10 other people? You have absolutely NO context for what the economy would be like if there was no RMT or not. Games fail because they suck, not because there aren't enough jacked-booted gamemasters stepping on heads and intervening in every player transaction because they suspect the transaction has an unacceptable motive. This is all very laughable.
Obviously you never played FInal Fantasy XI roughly 6 years ago. The game's market was almost completely overtaken by RMT's before SE finally stepped in with the ban hammer.
RMT's work en masse. One person legitimately farming a ton of gold and giving it to a friend doesn't compare to an army of people doing not only this, but also manipulating auction house prices, monopolizing rare mob spawns, and yes, in some cases, hacking accounts for the currency they sell. Then there's also the annoyance factor of unrelenting spammers which can also, potentially, hurt the game by driving legitimate players away.
Do you really think developers try to minimize RMT activity just because it's something to do? Why do you suppose that ToS goes through the trouble of outlining ths?
this once again goes back to, and I hate repeating this crap over and over again but wth: you don't know what you're talking about. Let me expand:
to the first comment about level playing fields: those with less time to play a game will have less chances to do the same things as another person with more time. The playing field is level right from the beginning because if a potential player begins a game they have already analyzed their time issues/limitations... well the smart ones anyway. Why should people who put less time in the game than another be equally rewarded?
Regarding all the green text: your movie theater comparison is void of similarity to what we are talking about. Everyone knows that what people eat in the theater is their business and it has a less than significant impact on the movie for everyone. Then you go on to say "it's just a game, get over it." Well, you obviously haven't connected all the dots (a game 1st graders are able to comprehend). The dots are this: virtual economies have a significant impact on player base. From there we connect: player base has a significant effect on game quality. If each server has 10 people over 30,000,000 sq/km due to player loss because as a whole people are unsatisfied with the "pay to win" economy implementation, we have what is known as a "decrease" in game quality.
I give credit to those that work harder for something than me and are rewarded for their efforts. I don't go looking for a way to cheat them out of it or to further myself through the use of unintended means to a process.
Seriously, watch out for these people: they are damaging to way more than themselves and don't even realize it.
I think what you want doesn't exist and cannot exist in nature. If by a level playing field you people think that every player is going to put in equal time for equal reward, well that's just BS. You think its unfair for player A to buy gold from player B, but WTF someone earned that gold, namely player B. And if player A paid cash, he probably earned that money doing something fantastically less interesting and fun than playing a game ( its called a job ). Is that what people are jealous about? Its a zero sum game. Unless you're exploiting a bug, no one is pulling value out of thin air, someone worked for it.
You guys might as well be screaming at water draining from a bath tub. There is an economic principle here at play and no amount of bitching is going to make 2+2 = 5.
If you don't want RMT, play a first person shooter, or some game where people don't trade.
If you don't want RMT, tell the developers to disable trade windows, mail and the auction house.
Or better yet, understand that you're not going to win anything, there is no "prize" to be won in these games. They are structured in such a way that there can BE no winner, and the point of the game is to enjoy it as entertainment and quit when you're done. The whole idea that you're paying to WIN is flawed, because there is no metric for it. How many max level characters do you create before you've won? Does Ed McMahon come to your house and hand you a giant check, or a certificate for the #1 Basement Dweller Award? You need to figure out how to enjoy these games without worrying about WTF everyone else is doing or you'll never be happy and you'll sure as hell have a hard time getting by in the real world.
The research paper quoted in the article explicitly states that companies are actively trying to inhibit the 3rd party RMT sales and quotes a variety of reasons. With some companies it's likely seen as a lucrative market that they can profit from themselves by designing games with sanctioned RMT in mind but other reasons are stated such as the negative effect unsanctioned RMT has upon 'player experience';
Game companies probably take such action through a mix of economic, moral and personal ingame experience rationales.
So it's clear that the companies themselves tend to regard it as an issue, it's evident that a significant proportion of players have reported to companies that unsanctioned RMT affects their enjoyment of the game. It's not just a few forum posters having a go who pro-RMT users need to argue with, it's the majority of a playerbase who seem to have an issue with the concept.
Do you really think developers try to minimize RMT activity just because it's something to do? Why do you suppose that ToS goes through the trouble of outlining ths?
I've practiced RMT ( as a seller and supplier ) in over 60 games since I started selling for UO in 1998. I was actually mentioned by pseudonym in this book ( Play Money: Or, How I Quit My Day Job and Made Millions Trading Virtual Loot ( chapter 30 page 204 )). I don't mean to sound sharp or condescending but I am hardly unfamiliar with the issue of RMT and have seen these arguments hashed and re-hashed a hundred times in every forum for every game that's come out in the last decade to the point that its BORING. And I can tell you that 99% of the problem is perception. This is an out of sight out of mind issue. If you didn't know the guy running across your screen paid $10 for gold and then went and bought a sword you placed on the auction house, it really wouldn't have affected your game enjoyment in the slightest. No, this is a case of "someone somewhere is having a party and I'm stuck at home". The solution to RMT is attitudinal adjustment. A little maturity and a little less emotional investment in a GAME goes a long way. But then again, there are people in the world who fight, riot and burn down their neighborhood after a sports competition, so none of this surprises me.
If you don't want RMT, play a first person shooter, or some game where people don't trade.
If you don't want RMT, tell the developers to disable trade windows, mail and the auction house.
So by your logic its a bank's fault if it gets robbed because they have teller windows.
Do you understand how ridiculous this sounds? Devs do take actions to stop RMT's, so stop trying to justify yourself by saying that just because it's possible, its alright.
Just like software piracy, its gonna happen. Software pirates at least know and admit they're breaking the law, though. The level of denial people who buy currency/items illigitimately is astounding. You're gonna do it; people aren't gonna like it; developers will try to stop you. If you dont want people to think of you as cheaters...dont cheat.
Originally posted by jackie28 ...And I can tell you that 99% of the problem is perception. This is an out of sight out of mind issue...
I think I'd agree with this. My suspicion is a minority of anti-RMT players, (myself included), disagree on a moral level with the concept but the majority of players who companies are concerning themselves with probably only find RMT an issue when it directly affects them through things such as content monopolisation and trading spam.
...And I can tell you that 99% of the problem is perception. This is an out of sight out of mind issue...
I think I'd agree with this. My suspicion is a minority of anti-RMT players, (myself included), disagree on a moral level with the concept but the majority of players who companies are concerning themselves with probably only find RMT an issue when it directly affects them through things such as content monopolisation and trading spam.
Ignorance is not always bliss. Just because you dont see it happening doesn't mean you aren't affected by it. You may even go through the game not knowing you're being affected. What I mean by that is, perhaps you can't buy something from an auction hosue because one person is selling all of that item at hopped up prices. You don't KNOW its an RMT'er causing you trouble, but it's still causing you trouble. It still happens, there are still negative effects.
Originally posted by FrostWyrm Originally posted by Xexv
Originally posted by jackie28 ...And I can tell you that 99% of the problem is perception. This is an out of sight out of mind issue...
I think I'd agree with this. My suspicion is a minority of anti-RMT players, (myself included), disagree on a moral level with the concept but the majority of players who companies are concerning themselves with probably only find RMT an issue when it directly affects them through things such as content monopolisation and trading spam. Ignorance is not always bliss. Just because you dont see it happening doesn't mean you aren't affected by it. You may even go through the game not knowing you're being affected. It still happens, there are still negative effects.
I'd not disagree with you there, I just suspect that for the majority it only becomes an issue when it directly impacts their play. Which in my own personal subjective experience, happens fairly frequently.
In what world is sports NOT a game? They're even called a game in commercials, and by coaches.
The point in which the players get paid to play. Oh yes. Very much not a game anymore. From high school on up. It has turned from being a fun past time to something that churns out new "professionals" every year. But then, we are back to the "unfair" treatment. As well all know or have experienced, certain groups can get preferential treatment. (say for example a school who spend 10,000 dollars on new football gear over a mathlete who has to sell his kidney to go to a state tournament)
If you and I go and play basketball... game. If you and I get paid to go play 5 games and win as many as we can... not game.
So what. They're professional players. Its still a game.
So by your logic its a bank's fault if it gets robbed because they have teller windows. *SNIP*
I'm saying that developers create a game designed for a dynamic and free economy and then shit a brick when free enterprise actually occurs, and that in and of itself is an unreasonable expectation. 99% of whatever is malfunctioning in a virtual world is the fault of the developer, not the players. If you don't want people to exchange value, then you come up with a strategy for limiting it ( and they do ) such as bound / no-drop items, level requirements on items, etc. When a game company rolls out a product, they need to assume from the beginning that whatever is flawed will be abused, manipulated and meta-gamed by the playerbase. Instead they act all surprised and then put the blame on the player. I think this is a very unelightened approach. They need to let game mechanics be the ultimate arbiter of what is legal and step away from the whole sociological aspect of trying to decide whether someone's motive for a particular trade was accepted or not. This is just like the real world btw. While it would be ideal to prevent certain activities ( like drinking alcohol ), banning it just creates a black market and relegates all the profit from said activity to those willing to bend the rules, when profits could be shared by legal industry. In other words, you really don't have any choice in this matter. RMT does and will occur. Even if you couldn't trade items and gold, people would sell accounts. You basically have two options : 1) involve the entire playerbase in a participatory economy, let them trade freely and as a game company protect their value, or 2) ban RMT and let me make all the money instead. Your choice.
gnorance is not always bliss. Just because you dont see it happening doesn't mean you aren't affected by it. You may even go through the game not knowing you're being affected. What I mean by that is, perhaps you can't buy something from an auction hosue because one person is selling all of that item at hopped up prices. You don't KNOW its an RMT'er causing you trouble, but it's still causing you trouble. It still happens, there are still negative effects.
Ah the ole inflated price argument.
Let me give you an example of a benefit of RMT, since we always hear the negatives.
Do you know what happens right after a hurricane? When a hurricane hits, infrastructure gets wiped out, businesses and homes are destroyed, nothing is working, people don't have jobs, services are inaccessible and people are standing around with their thumb up their butt. The next day, the President declares the state a disaster zone, which then frees up billions of federal dollars for disaster relief. They flood the local economy with dollars, and that brings in workers from surrounding states, civil engineers, construction contractors, etc, etc ( basically all your "crafters" ) and they jump start the economy and get things moving again. Pretty soon everybody is back at work doing something.
When you start playing a new MMO, or on a fresh server, its like a friggin disaster zone. There is nothing. No materials on the auction house, no one with crafting skills worth squat, no economy. The RMT'er comes along and says Hey we're farming this server and we'll sell you x gold for n dollars and BOOM you're off and running to the craft npc and buying materials. Next thing you know you're listing bags on the auction house ( and gosh maybe someone else who bought gold just bought your crappy level 1 bag ). Or maybe you bought a sword and went out and killed some monsters. The point is that RMT is an enabler, it works as a catalyst to get things moving. While you're fixated on prices and hypothetical inflationary effects, Joe Blow is paying the going rate for whatever junk you threw up for auction too. It's not like you're getting the shaft, its not like you can't SELL for the going rate.
All RMT is is a reflection of relative difficulty in an economy to participate. If the game is too generous and gold has no value, no one will farm the game. If the game is too conservative and hard, farmers and seasoned players will reduce the barrier to participation. To what extent either happens really depends on how well the developers "guess" that their economy is supposed to work.
So by your logic its a bank's fault if it gets robbed because they have teller windows. *SNIP*
I'm saying that developers create a game designed for a dynamic and free economy and then shit a brick when free enterprise actually occurs, and that in and of itself is an unreasonable expectation. 99% of whatever is malfunctioning in a virtual world is the fault of the developer, not the players. If you don't want people to exchange value, then you come up with a strategy for limiting it ( and they do ) such as bound / no-drop items, level requirements on items, etc. When a game company rolls out a product, they need to assume from the beginning that whatever is flawed will be abused, manipulated and meta-gamed by the playerbase. Instead they act all surprised and then put the blame on the player. I think this is a very unelightened approach. They need to let game mechanics be the ultimate arbiter of what is legal and step away from the whole sociological aspect of trying to decide whether someone's motive for a particular trade was accepted or not. This is just like the real world btw. While it would be ideal to prevent certain activities ( like drinking alcohol ), banning it just creates a black market and relegates all the profit from said activity to those willing to bend the rules, when profits could be shared by legal industry. In other words, you really don't have any choice in this matter. RMT does and will occur. Even if you couldn't trade items and gold, people would sell accounts. You basically have two options : 1) involve the entire playerbase in a participatory economy, let them trade freely and as a game company protect their value, or 2) ban RMT and let me make all the money instead. Your choice.
Yes, IN GAME ECONOMY. Real money should not factor in to it. What about this do you not understand? To foster a fair environment, everyone should be subject to the same rules. Using RMT is cheating. Period.
This is NOT about "free enterprise". This is about cheating.
Comments
I read it. I just don't necessarily feel that I have ANY reason to submit to the opinions of people on here. Do you speed when you drive? Opps your actually breakin the LAW! Do you buy gold? Oh, you breaking a ToS. It's laughable. Speeding can KILL people, RMT at most (if EVERYONE did it) could possibly inflate a market. But any game that monitors it's economy can EASILY fix this.
Now... the entire thread started because this is something that is going INTO effect for Blizzard's Diablo 3. People can go in game, grind an item, then sell it in the auction house for either in-game cash or real cash. Blizzard is going to take their cut of both. Thus, it's acceptable. Bioware has a game where it requires a ton of cash to have superfluous (non-combat, no effect on the community) travel options. JUST on travel it's something like 550K. Blizzard did theirs because they realized RMT has a place in gaming, no matter how much some of the community dislike it. Bioware CHOSE not to do so with their. Putting a little blip in their TOS saying "it's not allowed" simply because they were too lazy to include basic functions (like Eve, and soon Blizzard) are losing their cut.
If it doesn't affect others (and most certainly travel options in games DO NOT), I truly feel it's fair game. It's not like I don't self-impose things. I buy gold for mounts, and occasionally it gets used to assist on crafting. I buy mats (which people sell) thus others profit off of my buying gold as well. And the world goes round.
Haha exactly. Tell me its fair for Tiger Woods to have been raised playing golf and be able to buy the best sports equipment, the best training, play on the best courses, and spend 40 hours a week playing golf. Athletes sink cash into their sport all the time to help them "level" up. Is that fair?
As far as games go, I have a 30" monitor. I have a fast computer. I have reliable Internet. I have an office where I am free from distraction. All these little advantages cost money, but somehow they're all acceptable to the previous poster. What makes buying a weapon in-game any different? Well the truth is they aren't reasoning this through, they are just reacting to what they "feel" should be the case. One day they'll grow up, get a job and all this will make more sense.
Buying a drink and popcorn at a movie is not circumventing the movie theater's policies in any way. These are two very different issues. RMT'ing is CHEATING. A game loses its value when other players cheat to get ahead. It also screws up game economies, so it does affect those who like to enjoy a game normally. If you can't play by the rules, you shouldn't be playing at all.
You can try to justify it all you like. Feel better about yourself by claiming other people are the problem. Really, though, if you have enough of a problem with the game's system that you have to cheat, maybe you should be asking yourself why you're even playing it.
In games that allow it, thats fine, but those that dont...why would you even bother?
I agree with some of your points Ikeda like the game designs but thats a problem with the game and personally i just dont play or encourage those games. Again about Eve i dont agree with their practice either their on the same level as blizzard , their fine with it as long as they get their cut.
Thats why certain games that will come out will change the way the old MMO works and its about time a compagny actually tries to make the games fun instead of a grindfest. I think games like wow got used to the gold sellers and jacked the price accordingly, but then again i never played it and never will.
The gold you buy though does effect others. Without buyers there wont be as much sellers ive lived it in FFXI, eventually when there wasnt enough demand and they got pushed too hard by SOE the price of buying new games to get a couple of accnts set up just wasnt worth what they were making selling gold.
Its a big issue that will not go away by itself people need to take actions and talk with their money. Unfortunatly too many people think its no big deal.Ive played enough F2p where they were rampant and made it impossible to play normally a good exemple is Silkroad online. Please check a few videos im sure there are some on youtube, It got to the point people couldnt even log into the game. I think the same thing happend in Aion and look how well it did ( certainly didint help that it was infested with boters and farmers )
if nothing is done to keep them out and make sure that kind of buisness is not profitable in p2p games then they will disapear slowly.
So let's let sports players take drugs to enhance their play. It means they aren't playing fair, but so what. The point is the end, not the means right? Sorry, but thats wrong. Not all life is about winning, and not everything is acceptable. Cheating is cheating. It's not a good thing to cheat just because you can do it. No, not for any reason.
And you're ENTIRELY missing my point. Unlike these sports stars or athletes... THIS IS A GAME. A GAME. A game that quite like will not make it 5-10 years in the current market. So at the END of the day, the point of the game is to have fun while it's around. (Some) RMT allows the end-user to experience the game in his/her own way. You like to grind cash. That's cool. I think it's a waste of valuable game PLAYING time. SO I do my thing.
It's perfectly ok not to see eye to eye on this. Just understand that it's your POSITION and not necessarily that you're right and I'm wrong. It's simply not so conclusively black and white.
"No, not for any reason". Company makes the cure for cancer. You find out you have cancer and are terminally ill (gunna die REAL soon/fast). Only this drug can save you. Cancer company says, "Oh, well you're terminally ill, you'll pay extra". Let's say 1 million dollars. That's not fair. Not fair in at all. Your options are then to circumvent the system or die. No, not for any reason. I'm just saying that SOMETIMES based on PERSPECTIVE right and wrong is VERY ambiguous.
In what world is sports NOT a game? They're even called a game in commercials, and by coaches.
this once again goes back to, and I hate repeating this crap over and over again but wth: you don't know what you're talking about. Let me expand:
to the first comment about level playing fields: those with less time to play a game will have less chances to do the same things as another person with more time. The playing field is level right from the beginning because if a potential player begins a game they have already analyzed their time issues/limitations... well the smart ones anyway. Why should people who put less time in the game than another be equally rewarded?
Regarding all the green text: your movie theater comparison is void of similarity to what we are talking about. Everyone knows that what people eat in the theater is their business and it has a less than significant impact on the movie for everyone. Then you go on to say "it's just a game, get over it." Well, you obviously haven't connected all the dots (a game 1st graders are able to comprehend). The dots are this: virtual economies have a significant impact on player base. From there we connect: player base has a significant effect on game quality. If each server has 10 people over 30,000,000 sq/km due to player loss because as a whole people are unsatisfied with the "pay to win" economy implementation, we have what is known as a "decrease" in game quality.
I give credit to those that work harder for something than me and are rewarded for their efforts. I don't go looking for a way to cheat them out of it or to further myself through the use of unintended means to a process.
Seriously, watch out for these people: they are damaging to way more than themselves and don't even realize it.
The point in which the players get paid to play. Oh yes. Very much not a game anymore. From high school on up. It has turned from being a fun past time to something that churns out new "professionals" every year. But then, we are back to the "unfair" treatment. As well all know or have experienced, certain groups can get preferential treatment. (say for example a school who spend 10,000 dollars on new football gear over a mathlete who has to sell his kidney to go to a state tournament)
If you and I go and play basketball... game. If you and I get paid to go play 5 games and win as many as we can... not game.
1) this kid attempts to use his own assumptions regarding average mmo longevity is laughable. He doesn't know when the majority of a player base will abandon any game much less for what reason (besides RMT). He admittedly doesn't care that his actions can negatively impact the game or is too limited in brain capacity to understand why.
2) "I think it's a wate of valuable game PLAYING time. SO I do my thing." That's just it, he does his own thing to compensate and gain advantage through short-cutting not defined by in-game rules.
I hope he buys a new game and throw $500 at it only to have his account permabanned the following day due to ToS violation. Either that or I hope I play with as few people like him as possible. There are plenty of subpar "f2Ps" out there and I wish these kinds of people would take their business there. I also hope other future developers take RMT into consideration if they wish to have their player bases stay intact for long periods of time. I bet it was a capitalist that said: "It's cheaper to keep a customer than to find a new one." HOLY ECONOMICS, BATMAN!
Actually it IS that you're wrong, because the games' developers say so. They set the rules of the games. Again, no amount of self-justification will change this.
Might as well give it up...these guys are never going to see things our way.
We see these as GAMES, these guys see them more as "interactive entertainment services" (like a movie where you click a mouse) so anything that enhances thier entertainment is ok...cheating, RMT, etc.
You can't win an arguement with them about it because to them, you aren't even talking about the same things.
Me, I see RMT as the equivalent of bringing a corked bat to your kids Little League game... pathetic.
Tell me something. If I spent the last week farming a given mob and collecting up gold, how is that gold affecting the game economy adversely on another character, but not on MY character?
How does it screw up the game economy when player A sells player B 500 gold, but not when player A who is a friend of player B gives player B 500 gold? What happens when player A simply spends his 500 gold and distributes it to 10 other people? You have absolutely NO context for what the economy would be like if there was no RMT or not. Games fail because they suck, not because there aren't enough jacked-booted gamemasters stepping on heads and intervening in every player transaction because they suspect the transaction has an unacceptable motive. This is all very laughable.
Obviously you never played FInal Fantasy XI roughly 6 years ago. The game's market was almost completely overtaken by RMT's before SE finally stepped in with the ban hammer.
RMT's work en masse. One person legitimately farming a ton of gold and giving it to a friend doesn't compare to an army of people doing not only this, but also manipulating auction house prices, monopolizing rare mob spawns, and yes, in some cases, hacking accounts for the currency they sell. Then there's also the annoyance factor of unrelenting spammers which can also, potentially, hurt the game by driving legitimate players away.
Do you really think developers try to minimize RMT activity just because it's something to do? Why do you suppose that ToS goes through the trouble of outlining ths?
I think what you want doesn't exist and cannot exist in nature. If by a level playing field you people think that every player is going to put in equal time for equal reward, well that's just BS. You think its unfair for player A to buy gold from player B, but WTF someone earned that gold, namely player B. And if player A paid cash, he probably earned that money doing something fantastically less interesting and fun than playing a game ( its called a job ). Is that what people are jealous about? Its a zero sum game. Unless you're exploiting a bug, no one is pulling value out of thin air, someone worked for it.
You guys might as well be screaming at water draining from a bath tub. There is an economic principle here at play and no amount of bitching is going to make 2+2 = 5.
If you don't want RMT, play a first person shooter, or some game where people don't trade.
If you don't want RMT, tell the developers to disable trade windows, mail and the auction house.
Or better yet, understand that you're not going to win anything, there is no "prize" to be won in these games. They are structured in such a way that there can BE no winner, and the point of the game is to enjoy it as entertainment and quit when you're done. The whole idea that you're paying to WIN is flawed, because there is no metric for it. How many max level characters do you create before you've won? Does Ed McMahon come to your house and hand you a giant check, or a certificate for the #1 Basement Dweller Award? You need to figure out how to enjoy these games without worrying about WTF everyone else is doing or you'll never be happy and you'll sure as hell have a hard time getting by in the real world.
The research paper quoted in the article explicitly states that companies are actively trying to inhibit the 3rd party RMT sales and quotes a variety of reasons. With some companies it's likely seen as a lucrative market that they can profit from themselves by designing games with sanctioned RMT in mind but other reasons are stated such as the negative effect unsanctioned RMT has upon 'player experience';
So it's clear that the companies themselves tend to regard it as an issue, it's evident that a significant proportion of players have reported to companies that unsanctioned RMT affects their enjoyment of the game. It's not just a few forum posters having a go who pro-RMT users need to argue with, it's the majority of a playerbase who seem to have an issue with the concept.
I've practiced RMT ( as a seller and supplier ) in over 60 games since I started selling for UO in 1998. I was actually mentioned by pseudonym in this book ( Play Money: Or, How I Quit My Day Job and Made Millions Trading Virtual Loot ( chapter 30 page 204 )). I don't mean to sound sharp or condescending but I am hardly unfamiliar with the issue of RMT and have seen these arguments hashed and re-hashed a hundred times in every forum for every game that's come out in the last decade to the point that its BORING. And I can tell you that 99% of the problem is perception. This is an out of sight out of mind issue. If you didn't know the guy running across your screen paid $10 for gold and then went and bought a sword you placed on the auction house, it really wouldn't have affected your game enjoyment in the slightest. No, this is a case of "someone somewhere is having a party and I'm stuck at home". The solution to RMT is attitudinal adjustment. A little maturity and a little less emotional investment in a GAME goes a long way. But then again, there are people in the world who fight, riot and burn down their neighborhood after a sports competition, so none of this surprises me.
So by your logic its a bank's fault if it gets robbed because they have teller windows.
Do you understand how ridiculous this sounds? Devs do take actions to stop RMT's, so stop trying to justify yourself by saying that just because it's possible, its alright.
Just like software piracy, its gonna happen. Software pirates at least know and admit they're breaking the law, though. The level of denial people who buy currency/items illigitimately is astounding. You're gonna do it; people aren't gonna like it; developers will try to stop you. If you dont want people to think of you as cheaters...dont cheat.
I think I'd agree with this. My suspicion is a minority of anti-RMT players, (myself included), disagree on a moral level with the concept but the majority of players who companies are concerning themselves with probably only find RMT an issue when it directly affects them through things such as content monopolisation and trading spam.
Ignorance is not always bliss. Just because you dont see it happening doesn't mean you aren't affected by it. You may even go through the game not knowing you're being affected. What I mean by that is, perhaps you can't buy something from an auction hosue because one person is selling all of that item at hopped up prices. You don't KNOW its an RMT'er causing you trouble, but it's still causing you trouble. It still happens, there are still negative effects.
Ignorance is not always bliss. Just because you dont see it happening doesn't mean you aren't affected by it. You may even go through the game not knowing you're being affected. It still happens, there are still negative effects.
I'd not disagree with you there, I just suspect that for the majority it only becomes an issue when it directly impacts their play. Which in my own personal subjective experience, happens fairly frequently.
So what. They're professional players. Its still a game.
I'm saying that developers create a game designed for a dynamic and free economy and then shit a brick when free enterprise actually occurs, and that in and of itself is an unreasonable expectation. 99% of whatever is malfunctioning in a virtual world is the fault of the developer, not the players. If you don't want people to exchange value, then you come up with a strategy for limiting it ( and they do ) such as bound / no-drop items, level requirements on items, etc. When a game company rolls out a product, they need to assume from the beginning that whatever is flawed will be abused, manipulated and meta-gamed by the playerbase. Instead they act all surprised and then put the blame on the player. I think this is a very unelightened approach. They need to let game mechanics be the ultimate arbiter of what is legal and step away from the whole sociological aspect of trying to decide whether someone's motive for a particular trade was accepted or not. This is just like the real world btw. While it would be ideal to prevent certain activities ( like drinking alcohol ), banning it just creates a black market and relegates all the profit from said activity to those willing to bend the rules, when profits could be shared by legal industry. In other words, you really don't have any choice in this matter. RMT does and will occur. Even if you couldn't trade items and gold, people would sell accounts. You basically have two options : 1) involve the entire playerbase in a participatory economy, let them trade freely and as a game company protect their value, or 2) ban RMT and let me make all the money instead. Your choice.
Ah the ole inflated price argument.
Let me give you an example of a benefit of RMT, since we always hear the negatives.
Do you know what happens right after a hurricane? When a hurricane hits, infrastructure gets wiped out, businesses and homes are destroyed, nothing is working, people don't have jobs, services are inaccessible and people are standing around with their thumb up their butt. The next day, the President declares the state a disaster zone, which then frees up billions of federal dollars for disaster relief. They flood the local economy with dollars, and that brings in workers from surrounding states, civil engineers, construction contractors, etc, etc ( basically all your "crafters" ) and they jump start the economy and get things moving again. Pretty soon everybody is back at work doing something.
When you start playing a new MMO, or on a fresh server, its like a friggin disaster zone. There is nothing. No materials on the auction house, no one with crafting skills worth squat, no economy. The RMT'er comes along and says Hey we're farming this server and we'll sell you x gold for n dollars and BOOM you're off and running to the craft npc and buying materials. Next thing you know you're listing bags on the auction house ( and gosh maybe someone else who bought gold just bought your crappy level 1 bag ). Or maybe you bought a sword and went out and killed some monsters. The point is that RMT is an enabler, it works as a catalyst to get things moving. While you're fixated on prices and hypothetical inflationary effects, Joe Blow is paying the going rate for whatever junk you threw up for auction too. It's not like you're getting the shaft, its not like you can't SELL for the going rate.
All RMT is is a reflection of relative difficulty in an economy to participate. If the game is too generous and gold has no value, no one will farm the game. If the game is too conservative and hard, farmers and seasoned players will reduce the barrier to participation. To what extent either happens really depends on how well the developers "guess" that their economy is supposed to work.
Yes, IN GAME ECONOMY. Real money should not factor in to it. What about this do you not understand? To foster a fair environment, everyone should be subject to the same rules. Using RMT is cheating. Period.
This is NOT about "free enterprise". This is about cheating.