That's exactly why people are bitchin about this. And as I continually, repeat... you never win. It is an illusion. If you're not playing MMO's for the journey, you're wasting your time because there is no prize at the end.
Yet if there was no RMT, there would be very little reason for large scale account theft to be going on. Not to mention that RMT is also increasingly being used by organized crime to launder money and therefore aids in real world criminal activity.
And you observed this money laundering first hand? *rolls eyes* That's like saying MMOs should be illegal because some people neglect their children, and child neglect wouldn't occur if it weren't for these darned games.
Account theft can controlled programmatically with systems like what RIFT employs. Again, something within the realm of the developer to fix. And don't think for a minute a game that has no RMT potential isn't fair game for hackers. Look at what that group Anonymous does with only chaos as their motive.
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If you want a solution, come up with a design solution OR accept that RMT will occur. Blaming the player for purchasing items when he has a natural motivation to do so is not going to STOP the behavior. Developers should have enough experience by now with the phenomenon to know ( OH WAIT, they DO, and that's why they're integrating item shops and marketplaces like Diablo III ).
The thing is that what you want doesn't exist in nature.
Boy I wish I could make society conform to MY expecations and make ME happy and entertain ME. <-- this is what I'm hearing from you, but the reality is there are other free actors and agents in this universe and they are going about pursuing their self-interest. Your self-interestedness is to play a game without perceiving that the cheating is going on, which IMO is absurd and impossible in scope. I would encourage you to find enjoyment in your game via its content and not worry about what everyone else is doing, because you're not going to control that anyway.
RMT is cheating in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.
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RMT is acceptable in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.
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Why is it so hard for people who want RMT to just play one of the MMOs that allows it, and leave the ones that disallow RMT to the gamers who don't like RMT in their games?
The only person being selfish in their views is yourself, because you want to play by your own rules, and not those that are decided by the people who developed and run the game and which most players abide by.
I have no problem with RMT existing in an MMO, so long as it is intended and accepted that RMT is part of said game. I personally however, will not play such MMOs and will only play those that abide by the concept that RMT harms the spirit of gameplay, but I still respect that some people do prefer this type of game design. You however, disregard that many developers and players dislike RMT, and rules be damned because you want to be able to do what you want when you want, and no one should try stop you because in your perception 'it's inevitable' and 'it's not hurting anyone'.
By the logic you are using, abusing in-game exploits, bugs, and client hacks should all be fair game.
Hacks, bugs, exploits are within the realm of responsibility of the developer to fix ( or better yet, not create in the first place ). I don't condone the activity but its silly to think players won't abuse such advantages when presented with the opportunity. Assuming players will not exploit is like designing a bathtub with a hole in the bottom and then freaking out when the water pours out below. These are technological challenges to be addressed and the onus is on the developer not to turn out crap. I'm sorry but you simply cannot blame the players for everything in world that goes wrong in your game ( well, I suppose you could but with no productive outcome ). Why instead of arguing with me don't you solve the problem and develop a way to remove from the game incentives to cheat. Tell me how you are practically going to remove hundreds of thousands of players who might actually buy something third party. Most companies ban the seller and just give the buyer a warning for a reason, and its because they can't justify closing buyer accounts. Look, even if you "won" this argument it doesn't mean anything because you can't fix this. Sorry.
Hacks, bugs, exploits are within the realm of responsibility of the developer to fix ( or better yet, not create in the first place ). I don't condone the activity but its silly to think players won't abuse such advantages when presented with the opportunity. Assuming players will not exploit is like designing a bathtub with a hole in the bottom and then freaking out when the water pours out below. These are technological challenges to be addressed and the onus is on the developer not to turn out crap. I'm sorry but you simply cannot blame the players for everything in world that goes wrong in your game ( well, I suppose you could but with no productive outcome ). Why instead of arguing with me don't you solve the problem and develop a way to remove from the game incentives to cheat. Tell me how you are practically going to remove hundreds of thousands of players who might actually buy something third party. Most companies ban the seller and just give the buyer a warning for a reason, and its because they can't justify closing buyer accounts. Look, even if you "won" this argument it doesn't mean anything because you can't fix this. Sorry.
You can't design a game that removes the incentive to cheat. The incentive to cheat comes from the fact that certain players want to have advantages in the game, but don't want to actually put any effort into the game to get it, aka actualyl playing the damn game how it's meant to be played. The only way you could remotely achieve this, would be to remove progression, but in doing so you're basically removing one of the defining aspects of the genre itself.
---EVEN SO---
As I repeatedly state: There. Are. MMOs. That. Are. Specifically. Made. For. People. Who. Like. RMT.
There are several options of games for people who want RMT, yet instead some gamers insist on playing games that forbid it and do it anyways.
I don't play RMT games and then complain that there's RMT. I respect the fact that those games are designed for an audience that like RMT, and I simply avoid them. You and others however, seem to have no respect for the developers and players of games that forbid RMT.
You're not going to change anyones opinion, just like I'm sure I'm not going to change yours.
So I'm just going to leave things with this...
I won't shed a tear if you sink money into a game via RMT, and then get banned for it because it violates the rules of the game. The more people like yourself who get burned by this, the happier I will be.
This one SENTENCE says enough why i NEVER play such games, for me its still cheating your way to the top without playing, and its also a bullshit arguement why they should do implement it.
"Casual gamers get the chance to play with the big boys (hard core gamers) through this trading, by getting up-to-par items through virtual currency or real world currency."
Casual or not if you can't comepete with hardcore thats how it always should be. Its also unfair to those can or devoting more to there game and play it hardcore.
Your after all not for nothing called CASUAL if you have family or work wel thats obvious then you can't have it all or you dont wanne sweat alittle you should not getting it through easy way also.
Nomatter how hard this topic try promote RTM its cheating and unfair to those who wanne play themselfs.
Less and less games are populated with gamers like me who play as games ment to be played without any cheat/exploit/hack or gold/item buying. I also never visit sites for walkthroughs guidance or any tips i find out everything by myself.
But i know im a dying breed im affraid LAST THERE MOHICANS:(
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Since 99% of games have some sort of cash shop I'm actually amazed people are still concerned about this. Then, when you think that 99% of games have BOP items I wonder who the heck cares if someone bought all the gold/plat on the server. They can't buy BOP items.
BoP isn't a complete deterrent.
There a raid guilds that sell raid positions and guarantee loot drops (if they drop) to players for content they have on farm. I've seen in being advertised in trade chat for the many years that I played WoW.
Which would be a perfectly legit thing to do... provided said person buying their way through raid content to gear up wasn't paying for it with RMT... but I guarantee that several of them were, considering the prices were so ridiculously high that a casual player wouldn't be able to afford it... yet several seemed to have the gold.
Either way, RMT is cheating the game. It surprises me how many people are too lazy to actually play the game to advance, especially with how ridiciulously quick and easy MMOs have become. If some people really don't have the time to spend a few hours a week to play an MMO, maybe they should find a new hobby.
How does RMT advance a character in a BOP game? Raid guilds do not sell "seats" - I've played plenty of games, and have never seen this offer. Why do those need gold/plat, anyways?
People use gold/plat for alts. Sadly, a meaningless part of BOP games.
Since 99% of games have some sort of cash shop I'm actually amazed people are still concerned about this. Then, when you think that 99% of games have BOP items I wonder who the heck cares if someone bought all the gold/plat on the server. They can't buy BOP items.
BoP isn't a complete deterrent.
There a raid guilds that sell raid positions and guarantee loot drops (if they drop) to players for content they have on farm. I've seen in being advertised in trade chat for the many years that I played WoW.
Which would be a perfectly legit thing to do... provided said person buying their way through raid content to gear up wasn't paying for it with RMT... but I guarantee that several of them were, considering the prices were so ridiculously high that a casual player wouldn't be able to afford it... yet several seemed to have the gold.
Either way, RMT is cheating the game. It surprises me how many people are too lazy to actually play the game to advance, especially with how ridiciulously quick and easy MMOs have become. If some people really don't have the time to spend a few hours a week to play an MMO, maybe they should find a new hobby.
How does RMT advance a character in a BOP game? Raid guilds do not sell "seats" - I've played plenty of games, and have never seen this offer. Why do those need gold/plat, anyways?
People use gold/plat for alts. Sadly, a meaningless part of BOP games.
As I said, it happened all the time in WoW back when I was still playing. The leading raid guilds on the server I played on would sell a slot or two for the previous tier's raid, to raise funds for consumables and repairs for the latest raid tier. They would advertise in trade chat all the time. Heck the raid guild I was in had offers from players to take them through, though we never did. Although, we did sell a few of the epic BoE drops that we got and didn't need... so yeah, there's also that.
I won't shed a tear if you sink money into a game via RMT, and then get banned for it because it violates the rules of the game. The more people like yourself who get burned by this, the happier I will be.
I'm not going to hold my breath that you will ever be happy because there will always be someone going 60 in the 55 mph zone.
Trying to justify RMT is just nonsense. Yes, it will never be completely stopped. But then again, neither will narcotics, theft, murder, etc. That doesn't mean you just throw your hands up and give up. In fact, this kind of logic tends to be used by people who stand to gain from the removal of such policing.
Good point - you don't throw your hands up when you're talking about narcotics, theft and murder. But you do throw your hands up when you're talking about drinking beer and any number of lesser undesirable behaviors. RMT is more like drinking beer than murdering your neighbor. In fact, its less serious, even trivial, because no one DIES because someone RMT'd. Anyone who says otherwise is exaggerating. Like I said in a previous post, people have no perpective.
When you are paying money for a service, and you are denied that service than it is a real world consequence. I am paying $15 a month to play under a ruleset put in place by the seller of this service. If you break that ruleset in a way that makes the game no fun for those who are simply paying for the service and playing by the rules, than you are in essence destroying $15 from me and the thousands of others who are negatively impacted. In my opinion you are doing the equivalent of $15 a month destruction of property to thousands of people. Just like if you went into a neighborhood and egged 1000 houses. I think you could and should be prosecuted for this, with real world consequences.
And you will say, well no real property is being destroyed so you can't prosecute me under that law. That is why they then introduced other laws such as wire fraud, etc to get around that loop hole. You could actually be prosecuted if somebody had the cojones to do it.. I would applaud it if they did. And yes, you can't catch everybody. But when you do catch somebody, you should throw the book at them or make them reimburse everybody their subscription fees back.
You seem to think your actions are meaningless, but there are real people affected by your actions in the online world. Maybe you think cyber-bullying for instance is ok to? Or maybe you think impersonating onther person online is ok too? Hey, its all just bits and pixles right?
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
When you are paying money for a service, and you are denied that service than it is a real world consequence. I am paying $15 a month to play under a ruleset put in place by the seller of this service. If you break that ruleset in a way that makes the game no fun for those who are simply paying for the service and playing by the rules, than you are in essence destroying $15 from me and the thousands of others who are negatively impacted. In my opinion you are doing the equivalent of $15 a month destruction of property to thousands of people. Just like if you went into a neighborhood and egged 1000 houses. I think you could and should be prosecuted for this, with real world consequences.
And you will say, well no real property is being destroyed so you can't prosecute me under that law. That is why they then introduced other laws such as wire fraud, etc to get around that loop hole. You could actually be prosecuted if somebody had the cojones to do it.. I would applaud it if they did. And yes, you can't catch everybody. But when you do catch somebody, you should throw the book at them or make them reimburse everybody their subscription fees back.
You seem to think your actions are meaningless, but there are real people affected by your actions in the online world. Maybe you think cyber-bullying for instance is ok to? Or maybe you think impersonating onther person online is ok too? Hey, its all just bits and pixles right?
Wire fraud doesn't apply to RMT, mainly because you aren't defrauding anyone. Seller sells gold, seller gets cash, customer gets product. There is no fraud. Besides, the game company owns the intellectual property and retains the right to close your account, so you aren't selling "gold" anyway, you are only selling your time. Time which, btw, the sale of cannot be limited by a EULA, even if the player agrees to it, because your right to contract is protected by Article 1 Section 10 of the US Constitution. Just like you could sign a contract agreeing to be a slave, and it would be voided by the courts. Believe me, we jumped through these hoops 10 years ago on Terra Nova ad infinitum. The only relief a game company has ( or properly should have ) in the USA against RMT is to close the offending account. Putting someone in prison, well this is just a 14-year olds fantasy that would never come to pass, and if it did would effectively kill the industry because I'm sure as hell not going to give a Game Master that kind of authorty over me ( as no thinking person would ). You might, but not me.
As far as my actions go inside a game, yes I believe they are largely meaningless. That you ascribe such value to your video game that you are willing to imprison others to preserve a false perception that the game is fair is, IMO narcissistic and contemptible. Knowing that someone could think this way makes me lose all hope in democracy. Next thing you know we'll have torture camps for people who text while driving. Anyway. You guys are addicts and need to get out of the house. Find a girlfriend or something. RMT is about as "immoral" as smuggling food into a movie theater.
When you are paying money for a service, and you are denied that service than it is a real world consequence. I am paying $15 a month to play under a ruleset put in place by the seller of this service. If you break that ruleset in a way that makes the game no fun for those who are simply paying for the service and playing by the rules, than you are in essence destroying $15 from me and the thousands of others who are negatively impacted. In my opinion you are doing the equivalent of $15 a month destruction of property to thousands of people. Just like if you went into a neighborhood and egged 1000 houses. I think you could and should be prosecuted for this, with real world consequences.
And you will say, well no real property is being destroyed so you can't prosecute me under that law. That is why they then introduced other laws such as wire fraud, etc to get around that loop hole. You could actually be prosecuted if somebody had the cojones to do it.. I would applaud it if they did. And yes, you can't catch everybody. But when you do catch somebody, you should throw the book at them or make them reimburse everybody their subscription fees back.
You seem to think your actions are meaningless, but there are real people affected by your actions in the online world. Maybe you think cyber-bullying for instance is ok to? Or maybe you think impersonating onther person online is ok too? Hey, its all just bits and pixles right?
Wire fraud doesn't apply to RMT, mainly because you aren't defrauding anyone. Seller sells gold, seller gets cash, customer gets product. There is no fraud. Besides, the game company owns the intellectual property and retains the right to close your account, so you aren't selling "gold" anyway, you are only selling your time. Time which, btw, the sale of cannot be limited by a EULA, even if the player agrees to it, because your right to contract is protected by Article 1 Section 10 of the US Constitution. Just like you could sign a contract agreeing to be a slave, and it would be voided by the courts. Believe me, we jumped through these hoops 10 years ago on Terra Nova ad infinitum. The only relief a game company has ( or properly should have ) in the USA against RMT is to close the offending account. Putting someone in prison, well this is just a 14-year olds fantasy that would never come to pass, and if it did would effectively kill the industry because I'm sure as hell not going to give a Game Master that kind of authorty over me ( as no thinking person would ). You might, but not me.
As far as my actions go inside a game, yes I believe they are largely meaningless. That you ascribe such value to your video game that you are willing to imprison others to preserve a false perception that the game is fair is, IMO narcissistic and contemptible. Knowing that someone could think this way makes me lose all hope in democracy. Next thing you know we'll have torture camps for people who text while driving. Anyway. You guys are addicts and need to get out of the house. Find a girlfriend or something. RMT is about as "immoral" as smuggling food into a movie theater.
I used wire fraud as an example of how the law has adjusted in the past, but there are also hacking laws being enacted all over the country as well but they are less mature and the courts haven't resolved their applicablity yet. When you take or destroy value in this world, eventually the laws will catch up with you. Even identify theft was hard to prosecute for a while until the laws catch up.
How about the case where in PVP you use a lag hack to lag all of your opponents? This actually is a tactic that is used in online FPS multiplayer sometimes, especially a few years ago. Would that be crossing the line in your book or hey, its only bits and pixels we are all here just to have fun?
How about MMORPG traces your IP address and applies a denial of service attack on your ip address whenever that ip address is playing in an MMO? Would that be ok or would you feel your fun has been impeded?
There are rules and laws and its easy to say you don't need to follow them, but that doesn't make you right...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Tell me something, why should I put any trust in anything the owner of a site that sells in game gold and items says about RMT? I'm sorry, but this article is a joke.
I hate rmt because its cheating and criminal. Period.
Wire fraud doesn't apply to RMT, mainly because you aren't defrauding anyone. Seller sells gold, seller gets cash, customer gets product. There is no fraud. Besides, the game company owns the intellectual property and retains the right to close your account, so you aren't selling "gold" anyway, you are only selling your time. Time which, btw, the sale of cannot be limited by a EULA, even if the player agrees to it, because your right to contract is protected by Article 1 Section 10 of the US Constitution. Just like you could sign a contract agreeing to be a slave, and it would be voided by the courts. Believe me, we jumped through these hoops 10 years ago on Terra Nova ad infinitum. The only relief a game company has ( or properly should have ) in the USA against RMT is to close the offending account. Putting someone in prison, well this is just a 14-year olds fantasy that would never come to pass, and if it did would effectively kill the industry because I'm sure as hell not going to give a Game Master that kind of authorty over me ( as no thinking person would ). You might, but not me.
As far as my actions go inside a game, yes I believe they are largely meaningless. That you ascribe such value to your video game that you are willing to imprison others to preserve a false perception that the game is fair is, IMO narcissistic and contemptible. Knowing that someone could think this way makes me lose all hope in democracy. Next thing you know we'll have torture camps for people who text while driving. Anyway. You guys are addicts and need to get out of the house. Find a girlfriend or something. RMT is about as "immoral" as smuggling food into a movie theater.
There's that selfishness again. The industry will fail if they do something YOU disagree with? Its ok to cheat because YOU find no meaning in a game? Everyone who plays by the rules and dislikes cheating is an addict and needs to "get a girlfriend or something" because YOU dont want to play by the rules? That's really kind of sad.
Btw, an addict isn't someone who enjoys life normally. An addict goes outside the norm to get the kind of enjoyment out of life that other people either experience normally, or don't need at all. Which one of us does that sound like here? The one that can't enjoy a game without going outside the rules, or the one who plays within the set standards?
Again I ask, how would you feel if other people cheated in every game you've ever played?
When you are paying money for a service, and you are denied that service than it is a real world consequence. I am paying $15 a month to play under a ruleset put in place by the seller of this service. If you break that ruleset in a way that makes the game no fun for those who are simply paying for the service and playing by the rules, than you are in essence destroying $15 from me and the thousands of others who are negatively impacted. In my opinion you are doing the equivalent of $15 a month destruction of property to thousands of people. Just like if you went into a neighborhood and egged 1000 houses. I think you could and should be prosecuted for this, with real world consequences.
And you will say, well no real property is being destroyed so you can't prosecute me under that law. That is why they then introduced other laws such as wire fraud, etc to get around that loop hole. You could actually be prosecuted if somebody had the cojones to do it.. I would applaud it if they did. And yes, you can't catch everybody. But when you do catch somebody, you should throw the book at them or make them reimburse everybody their subscription fees back.
You seem to think your actions are meaningless, but there are real people affected by your actions in the online world. Maybe you think cyber-bullying for instance is ok to? Or maybe you think impersonating onther person online is ok too? Hey, its all just bits and pixles right?
Wire fraud doesn't apply to RMT, mainly because you aren't defrauding anyone. Seller sells gold, seller gets cash, customer gets product. There is no fraud. Besides, the game company owns the intellectual property and retains the right to close your account, so you aren't selling "gold" anyway, you are only selling your time. Time which, btw, the sale of cannot be limited by a EULA, even if the player agrees to it, because your right to contract is protected by Article 1 Section 10 of the US Constitution. Just like you could sign a contract agreeing to be a slave, and it would be voided by the courts. Believe me, we jumped through these hoops 10 years ago on Terra Nova ad infinitum. The only relief a game company has ( or properly should have ) in the USA against RMT is to close the offending account. Putting someone in prison, well this is just a 14-year olds fantasy that would never come to pass, and if it did would effectively kill the industry because I'm sure as hell not going to give a Game Master that kind of authorty over me ( as no thinking person would ). You might, but not me.
As far as my actions go inside a game, yes I believe they are largely meaningless. That you ascribe such value to your video game that you are willing to imprison others to preserve a false perception that the game is fair is, IMO narcissistic and contemptible. Knowing that someone could think this way makes me lose all hope in democracy. Next thing you know we'll have torture camps for people who text while driving. Anyway. You guys are addicts and need to get out of the house. Find a girlfriend or something. RMT is about as "immoral" as smuggling food into a movie theater.
Trying to extrapolate your views by building links between the virtual world and the real world is a good tactic. I use it all the times when discussing games. Still...
...that doesnt change the fact that exchanging any kind of game asset, outside the game infrastructure, for real money is considered cheating. I have read all your green posts, like the color btw, but still you have failed to present a valid point to defend your need to "bypass" all the other gamer time efforts by exhorting other people to do the same as you do.
Now, what you should be saying is: "i support RMT, even if you guys dont, i do know is cheating, but i dont see it that way. But please, if you are true to game balance and fairplay, please dont do like i do."
I would give you a thumbs up and continue with my zig-zag...
You know what, seriously... no one is going to HELL because they bought or sold gold in a video game. Bottom line. Not a big deal. If I died tonight and stood before God, he isn't going to flip through a record book of how many times I ran a macro in UO.
I concede that anything is cheating if its against the rules, but since this particular form of cheating is no different from being twinked by your friends.. meh. I can't take it any more seriously than smuggling my own food into a theater. These other guys want me to feel guilt or something because I sold a player a sword? As Dr. Evil would say, Howbout Nooo.
You say I haven't presented "a valid point to defend my need to bypass other gamers time and efforts" but I could have sworn I pointed out that there is no winner in these games, there is no reward for getting to the "end" because there is no end. If I'm enabling a player to level to max on his alt faster, wtf difference does it make? Maybe the player already has a main that could have kicked ass in PVP but he's choosing to level a lowbie today instead. Are we seriously willing to derive our satisfaction in a game by comparing our rate of advancement against everyone else's perceived rate of advancement? The problem with that I see is that even in a world where no one RMT's, there is always some paranoid schizophrenic dude who is going to be unhappy because he assumes something is going on when it isn't. That's why I call it the "someone somewhere is having a party" syndrome. Honestly, what I think is going on, you have a lot of people who are burned out on MMOs, but like a trained lab rat keep mashing the lever for a pellet, hoping to reclaim their virgin MMO fix. And it isn't happening, they aren't happy with their game, not really, and when something like RMT rears its head, they latch onto it immediately as a culprit and blame it for why their game is failing, or uninteresting or unsatisfying. Happiness is a state of mind. I don't believe the veteran gamer can be totally pleased either. Gamers are a difficult demographic. I would recommend people be less worried about the monetization of a game economy ( take it instead as an indicator of real value - something every game should want ) and focus more on what type of game experience they want to have, but they need to leave the whole personal leaderboard mentality behind. As far as I know, most of these games don't have a prize for who has leveled the most alts in the quickest amount of time, or who has skipped the most in-game content because they power-leveled. The joy of the MMO is supposed to be the journey and if you aren't enjoying the journey you really have other problems with the game.
You know what, seriously... no one is going to HELL because they bought or sold gold in a video game. Bottom line. Not a big deal. If I died tonight and stood before God, he isn't going to flip through a record book of how many times I ran a macro in UO.
I probably wouldnt go to hell (if there is such a place) for kicking a puppy either. That doesn't make it ok.
Your sole argument (and a weak one at that) is still that there are worse things in the world than cheating. Claiming genocide is far worse than theft doesn't give you the right to steal. You still failed to answer the question I've asked you twice already as well. How would you feel if other people cheated in every game you played? Not just video games, but any game at all.
You said yourself "The joy of the MMO is supposed to be the journey and if you aren't enjoying the journey you really have other problems with the game." So if you're not enjoying the game as it is, why would you pay even more to play it rather than finding one that better suits you? Why would you give someone else money to experience the journey for you?
Anyway, the fact that you cheat, and you not only expect people to be ok with it, but feel as though you're somehow entitled to do so, says to me that you have other problems beside the game itself.
You say I haven't presented "a valid point to defend my need to bypass other gamers time and efforts" but I could have sworn I pointed out that there is no winner in these games, there is no reward for getting to the "end" because there is no end. If I'm enabling a player to level to max on his alt faster, wtf difference does it make? Maybe the player already has a main that could have kicked ass in PVP but he's choosing to level a lowbie today instead. Are we seriously willing to derive our satisfaction in a game by comparing our rate of advancement against everyone else's perceived rate of advancement? The problem with that I see is that even in a world where no one RMT's, there is always some paranoid schizophrenic dude who is going to be unhappy because he assumes something is going on when it isn't. That's why I call it the "someone somewhere is having a party" syndrome. Honestly, what I think is going on, you have a lot of people who are burned out on MMOs, but like a trained lab rat keep mashing the lever for a pellet, hoping to reclaim their virgin MMO fix. And it isn't happening, they aren't happy with their game, not really, and when something like RMT rears its head, they latch onto it immediately as a culprit and blame it for why their game is failing, or uninteresting or unsatisfying. Happiness is a state of mind. I don't believe the veteran gamer can be totally pleased either. Gamers are a difficult demographic. I would recommend people be less worried about the monetization of a game economy ( take it instead as an indicator of real value - something every game should want ) and focus more on what type of game experience they want to have, but they need to leave the whole personal leaderboard mentality behind. As far as I know, most of these games don't have a prize for who has leveled the most alts in the quickest amount of time, or who has skipped the most in-game content because they power-leveled. The joy of the MMO is supposed to be the journey and if you aren't enjoying the journey you really have other problems with the game.
The problem is that, Companies do not make Games for the Journey anymore, because RMT is taking over.
No one would make a game with the tediums of EQ today, RMT would be all over the pace selling gold and leveling services.
So RMT is responsible in a way for the "nerfing" of games, because it takes advantage of key areas that were originally meant to constitute the journey and break those rules so that players now see it as a competition of who gets it first and fastest.
Someone mentioned Epic Mounts in WoW. Originally it was suposed to be something that a character Achieves over time and it is a testimony to thier experience and knowledge in the game. RMT came in now, any noob can just buy a leveled up character with an Epic mount..the experience of the player that actually Achieved the mount is now Cheapened, he/she may even decide to play something else in the mean time.
It is not for nothing that Blizz, had to address this by lowering prices and adding more ways for players to get the gold so they can achieve the mount without having to resort to RMT, and trust me in the vanilla days many people paid to get that gold for the mounts.
We cannot just say, "Enjoy the Journey" when RMT removes its meaning and cheapens its experience.
Players do not play only for themselves in games, they play in relation to other players in game too. If one finds a Flaming sword in a specific cave, everyone that sees that sword will ask him where to get one too, and everyone rushes to the Cave.
RMT is playing on that psychology by taking advantage of game design elements that are meant to be about the journey.
It is hard to level in a given game? No Problem, few bucks here and we will level the char for you!
It is hard to make in game curency? No Problem, we can sell it to you!
it is hard to have a flaming sword? No problem you can buy it here!
Get the point? It cannot be about the journey when RMT offers a teleporter Service for a few bucks. The journey loses its meaning and people then play who gets to point B first or fastest.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Originally posted by jackie28 Originally posted by CeridithOriginally posted by jackie28Originally posted by CeridithYet if there was no RMT, there would be very little reason for large scale account theft to be going on. Not to mention that RMT is also increasingly being used by organized crime to launder money and therefore aids in real world criminal activity.
And you observed this money laundering first hand? *rolls eyes* That's like saying MMOs should be illegal because some people neglect their children, and child neglect wouldn't occur if it weren't for these darned games. Account theft can controlled programmatically with systems like what RIFT employs. Again, something within the realm of the developer to fix. And don't think for a minute a game that has no RMT potential isn't fair game for hackers. Look at what that group Anonymous does with only chaos as their motive. You cannot prevent this activity.You cannot prevent this activity. You cannot prevent this activity. Is it starting to register?If you want a solution, come up with a design solution OR accept that RMT will occur. Blaming the player for purchasing items when he has a natural motivation to do so is not going to STOP the behavior. Developers should have enough experience by now with the phenomenon to know ( OH WAIT, they DO, and that's why they're integrating item shops and marketplaces like Diablo III ). The thing is that what you want doesn't exist in nature. Boy I wish I could make society conform to MY expecations and make ME happy and entertain ME. <-- this is what I'm hearing from you, but the reality is there are other free actors and agents in this universe and they are going about pursuing their self-interest. Your self-interestedness is to play a game without perceiving that the cheating is going on, which IMO is absurd and impossible in scope. I would encourage you to find enjoyment in your game via its content and not worry about what everyone else is doing, because you're not going to control that anyway.RMT is cheating in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.---RMT is acceptable in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.---Why is it so hard for people who want RMT to just play one of the MMOs that allows it, and leave the ones that disallow RMT to the gamers who don't like RMT in their games?The only person being selfish in their views is yourself, because you want to play by your own rules, and not those that are decided by the people who developed and run the game and which most players abide by.I have no problem with RMT existing in an MMO, so long as it is intended and accepted that RMT is part of said game. I personally however, will not play such MMOs and will only play those that abide by the concept that RMT harms the spirit of gameplay, but I still respect that some people do prefer this type of game design. You however, disregard that many developers and players dislike RMT, and rules be damned because you want to be able to do what you want when you want, and no one should try stop you because in your perception 'it's inevitable' and 'it's not hurting anyone'.By the logic you are using, abusing in-game exploits, bugs, and client hacks should all be fair game.Hacks, bugs, exploits are within the realm of responsibility of the developer to fix ( or better yet, not create in the first place ). I don't condone the activity but its silly to think players won't abuse such advantages when presented with the opportunity. Assuming players will not exploit is like designing a bathtub with a hole in the bottom and then freaking out when the water pours out below. These are technological challenges to be addressed and the onus is on the developer not to turn out crap. I'm sorry but you simply cannot blame the players for everything in world that goes wrong in your game ( well, I suppose you could but with no productive outcome ). Why instead of arguing with me don't you solve the problem and develop a way to remove from the game incentives to cheat. Tell me how you are practically going to remove hundreds of thousands of players who might actually buy something third party. Most companies ban the seller and just give the buyer a warning for a reason, and its because they can't justify closing buyer accounts. Look, even if you "won" this argument it doesn't mean anything because you can't fix this. Sorry.
The morality isn't in the RMT itself, but in the agreement between the developer and the player. The developer creates a set of rules, which the player agrees to follow when they decide to play the game. If climbing trees in a game is against the rules, even if it's possible, then climbing trees is 'wrong' and should be punished because the player is violating the agreement. Opinions on the morality of climbing trees is irrelevant. It's against the rules of the game that players agreed to when they decided to play the game.
You can get into long discussions (as is happening here) on the relative merits of RMT, why developers should (or shouldn't) set rules on it and ultimately you get nowhere because there is no morality involved, other than the morality of abiding by the rules.
Developers are already doing things to curb the behavior. They know they can't stop it, so they minimize it and minimize the impact on the players that do abide by their agreements.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by CeridithYet if there was no RMT, there would be very little reason for large scale account theft to be going on. Not to mention that RMT is also increasingly being used by organized crime to launder money and therefore aids in real world criminal activity.
And you observed this money laundering first hand? *rolls eyes* That's like saying MMOs should be illegal because some people neglect their children, and child neglect wouldn't occur if it weren't for these darned games. Account theft can controlled programmatically with systems like what RIFT employs. Again, something within the realm of the developer to fix. And don't think for a minute a game that has no RMT potential isn't fair game for hackers. Look at what that group Anonymous does with only chaos as their motive. You cannot prevent this activity.You cannot prevent this activity. You cannot prevent this activity. Is it starting to register?If you want a solution, come up with a design solution OR accept that RMT will occur. Blaming the player for purchasing items when he has a natural motivation to do so is not going to STOP the behavior. Developers should have enough experience by now with the phenomenon to know ( OH WAIT, they DO, and that's why they're integrating item shops and marketplaces like Diablo III ). The thing is that what you want doesn't exist in nature. Boy I wish I could make society conform to MY expecations and make ME happy and entertain ME. <-- this is what I'm hearing from you, but the reality is there are other free actors and agents in this universe and they are going about pursuing their self-interest. Your self-interestedness is to play a game without perceiving that the cheating is going on, which IMO is absurd and impossible in scope. I would encourage you to find enjoyment in your game via its content and not worry about what everyone else is doing, because you're not going to control that anyway.
RMT is cheating in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.---RMT is acceptable in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.---Why is it so hard for people who want RMT to just play one of the MMOs that allows it, and leave the ones that disallow RMT to the gamers who don't like RMT in their games?The only person being selfish in their views is yourself, because you want to play by your own rules, and not those that are decided by the people who developed and run the game and which most players abide by.I have no problem with RMT existing in an MMO, so long as it is intended and accepted that RMT is part of said game. I personally however, will not play such MMOs and will only play those that abide by the concept that RMT harms the spirit of gameplay, but I still respect that some people do prefer this type of game design. You however, disregard that many developers and players dislike RMT, and rules be damned because you want to be able to do what you want when you want, and no one should try stop you because in your perception 'it's inevitable' and 'it's not hurting anyone'.By the logic you are using, abusing in-game exploits, bugs, and client hacks should all be fair game.
Hacks, bugs, exploits are within the realm of responsibility of the developer to fix ( or better yet, not create in the first place ). I don't condone the activity but its silly to think players won't abuse such advantages when presented with the opportunity. Assuming players will not exploit is like designing a bathtub with a hole in the bottom and then freaking out when the water pours out below. These are technological challenges to be addressed and the onus is on the developer not to turn out crap. I'm sorry but you simply cannot blame the players for everything in world that goes wrong in your game ( well, I suppose you could but with no productive outcome ). Why instead of arguing with me don't you solve the problem and develop a way to remove from the game incentives to cheat. Tell me how you are practically going to remove hundreds of thousands of players who might actually buy something third party. Most companies ban the seller and just give the buyer a warning for a reason, and its because they can't justify closing buyer accounts. Look, even if you "won" this argument it doesn't mean anything because you can't fix this. Sorry.
The morality isn't in the RMT itself, but in the agreement between the developer and the player. The developer creates a set of rules, which the player agrees to follow when they decide to play the game. If climbing trees in a game is against the rules, even if it's possible, then climbing trees is 'wrong' and should be punished because the player is violating the agreement. Opinions on the morality of climbing trees is irrelevant. It's against the rules of the game that players agreed to when they decided to play the game.
You can get into long discussions (as is happening here) on the relative merits of RMT, why developers should (or shouldn't) set rules on it and ultimately you get nowhere because there is no morality involved, other than the morality of abiding by the rules.
Developers are already doing things to curb the behavior. They know they can't stop it, so they minimize it and minimize the impact on the players that do abide by their agreements.
I think you better recheck your understanding of the definition of morality.
If the rules state that it is wrong to do X, and you break those rules and do X you just commited and immoral act because it is wrong to do X when the rules state that you should not.
Morality is about right or wrong. Doing the right thing is moral, doing the wrong thing is immoral, as simple as that.
Therefore, if a game does not permit RMT and you participate in RMT activities you are doing something wrong within the context of that game's rules, hence comiting an immoral act.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
You know what, seriously... no one is going to HELL because they bought or sold gold in a video game. Bottom line. Not a big deal. If I died tonight and stood before God, he isn't going to flip through a record book of how many times I ran a macro in UO.
I concede that anything is cheating if its against the rules, but since this particular form of cheating is no different from being twinked by your friends.. meh. I can't take it any more seriously than smuggling my own food into a theater. These other guys want me to feel guilt or something because I sold a player a sword? As Dr. Evil would say, Howbout Nooo.
You say I haven't presented "a valid point to defend my need to bypass other gamers time and efforts" but I could have sworn I pointed out that there is no winner in these games, there is no reward for getting to the "end" because there is no end. If I'm enabling a player to level to max on his alt faster, wtf difference does it make? Maybe the player already has a main that could have kicked ass in PVP but he's choosing to level a lowbie today instead. Are we seriously willing to derive our satisfaction in a game by comparing our rate of advancement against everyone else's perceived rate of advancement? The problem with that I see is that even in a world where no one RMT's, there is always some paranoid schizophrenic dude who is going to be unhappy because he assumes something is going on when it isn't. That's why I call it the "someone somewhere is having a party" syndrome. Honestly, what I think is going on, you have a lot of people who are burned out on MMOs, but like a trained lab rat keep mashing the lever for a pellet, hoping to reclaim their virgin MMO fix. And it isn't happening, they aren't happy with their game, not really, and when something like RMT rears its head, they latch onto it immediately as a culprit and blame it for why their game is failing, or uninteresting or unsatisfying. Happiness is a state of mind. I don't believe the veteran gamer can be totally pleased either. Gamers are a difficult demographic. I would recommend people be less worried about the monetization of a game economy ( take it instead as an indicator of real value - something every game should want ) and focus more on what type of game experience they want to have, but they need to leave the whole personal leaderboard mentality behind. As far as I know, most of these games don't have a prize for who has leveled the most alts in the quickest amount of time, or who has skipped the most in-game content because they power-leveled. The joy of the MMO is supposed to be the journey and if you aren't enjoying the journey you really have other problems with the game.
So you admit you are a cheat and proud of it. I just find it amazing what people admit to on the net.
i think it's safe the debate is over for now. Leave the RMT to the games that don't want to creatively find a way around it. RMT supporters are people that would ultimately throw extra money at single player games if it means they could beat it faster so trying to argue with them is similar to teaching physics to "downies". Just imagining it is cruelty enough.
Originally posted by CeridithYet if there was no RMT, there would be very little reason for large scale account theft to be going on. Not to mention that RMT is also increasingly being used by organized crime to launder money and therefore aids in real world criminal activity.
And you observed this money laundering first hand? *rolls eyes* That's like saying MMOs should be illegal because some people neglect their children, and child neglect wouldn't occur if it weren't for these darned games. Account theft can controlled programmatically with systems like what RIFT employs. Again, something within the realm of the developer to fix. And don't think for a minute a game that has no RMT potential isn't fair game for hackers. Look at what that group Anonymous does with only chaos as their motive. You cannot prevent this activity.You cannot prevent this activity. You cannot prevent this activity. Is it starting to register?If you want a solution, come up with a design solution OR accept that RMT will occur. Blaming the player for purchasing items when he has a natural motivation to do so is not going to STOP the behavior. Developers should have enough experience by now with the phenomenon to know ( OH WAIT, they DO, and that's why they're integrating item shops and marketplaces like Diablo III ). The thing is that what you want doesn't exist in nature. Boy I wish I could make society conform to MY expecations and make ME happy and entertain ME. <-- this is what I'm hearing from you, but the reality is there are other free actors and agents in this universe and they are going about pursuing their self-interest. Your self-interestedness is to play a game without perceiving that the cheating is going on, which IMO is absurd and impossible in scope. I would encourage you to find enjoyment in your game via its content and not worry about what everyone else is doing, because you're not going to control that anyway.
RMT is cheating in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.---RMT is acceptable in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.---Why is it so hard for people who want RMT to just play one of the MMOs that allows it, and leave the ones that disallow RMT to the gamers who don't like RMT in their games?The only person being selfish in their views is yourself, because you want to play by your own rules, and not those that are decided by the people who developed and run the game and which most players abide by.I have no problem with RMT existing in an MMO, so long as it is intended and accepted that RMT is part of said game. I personally however, will not play such MMOs and will only play those that abide by the concept that RMT harms the spirit of gameplay, but I still respect that some people do prefer this type of game design. You however, disregard that many developers and players dislike RMT, and rules be damned because you want to be able to do what you want when you want, and no one should try stop you because in your perception 'it's inevitable' and 'it's not hurting anyone'.By the logic you are using, abusing in-game exploits, bugs, and client hacks should all be fair game.
Hacks, bugs, exploits are within the realm of responsibility of the developer to fix ( or better yet, not create in the first place ). I don't condone the activity but its silly to think players won't abuse such advantages when presented with the opportunity. Assuming players will not exploit is like designing a bathtub with a hole in the bottom and then freaking out when the water pours out below. These are technological challenges to be addressed and the onus is on the developer not to turn out crap. I'm sorry but you simply cannot blame the players for everything in world that goes wrong in your game ( well, I suppose you could but with no productive outcome ). Why instead of arguing with me don't you solve the problem and develop a way to remove from the game incentives to cheat. Tell me how you are practically going to remove hundreds of thousands of players who might actually buy something third party. Most companies ban the seller and just give the buyer a warning for a reason, and its because they can't justify closing buyer accounts. Look, even if you "won" this argument it doesn't mean anything because you can't fix this. Sorry.
The morality isn't in the RMT itself, but in the agreement between the developer and the player. The developer creates a set of rules, which the player agrees to follow when they decide to play the game. If climbing trees in a game is against the rules, even if it's possible, then climbing trees is 'wrong' and should be punished because the player is violating the agreement. Opinions on the morality of climbing trees is irrelevant. It's against the rules of the game that players agreed to when they decided to play the game. You can get into long discussions (as is happening here) on the relative merits of RMT, why developers should (or shouldn't) set rules on it and ultimately you get nowhere because there is no morality involved, other than the morality of abiding by the rules. Developers are already doing things to curb the behavior. They know they can't stop it, so they minimize it and minimize the impact on the players that do abide by their agreements.
I think you better recheck your understanding of the definition of morality.If the rules state that it is wrong to do X, and you break those rules and do X you just commited and immoral act because it is wrong to do X when the rules state that you should not.Morality is about right or wrong. Doing the right thing is moral, doing the wrong thing is immoral, as simple as that.Therefore, if a game does not permit RMT and you participate in RMT activities you are doing something wrong within the context of that game's rules, hence comiting an immoral act.
You just kind of said what I said. RMT in and of itself is amoral, not immoral. The morality is in the agreement between the developer and the player. If the player breaks that agreement, then it's immoral.
** edit ** Also, I'm not sure what happened to the formatting of the posts. The editor borked them.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yes it was a clarification, still I think now we agree that RMT is immoral when conducted in games that do not condone the activity, and I beleive it is in that spirit that many here made their arguments.
OffGamers breaks the rules and incites players to break the rules too in those cases, for its own self interest, it is worse than immoral.
And I am surprised that the author of the OP is not picking up on that, the OP itself is promoting immoral acts under this context too.
Bottom line is, if there is to be RMT it should be offered by the creator of the game like microtransactions. Third Party entities are not needed or desired, they are opportunists.
Specially in games that do not condone the activity.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Yes it was a clarification, still I think now we agree that RMT is immoral when conducted in games that do not condone the activity, and I beleive it is in that spirit that many here made their arguments.
OffGamers breaks the rules and incites players to break the rules too in those cases, for its own self interest, it is worse than immoral.
And I am surprised that the author of the OP is not picking up on that, the OP itself is promoting immoral acts under this context too.
Bottom line is, if there is to be RMT it should be offered by the creator of the game like microtransactions. Third Party entities are not needed or desired, they are opportunists.
Specially in games that do not condone the activity.
Some pretty funny stuff here and peoples perceptions:)
Might as well just decide to live with it... rmt will be here forever in fact I bet more companies make it a part of there games so they can be middle man instead of companies like OffGamers which will put most of them out of business maybe?
But the only way to really stop them is to remove the need for them which will never happen. All games put way to much dependancy in items and not enough on gameplay etc. UO was great in that everyone could get best items but most games make items have to be farmed etc making people need to buy/sell them creating the rmt need. Like i said it will never happen that it will go away so live with it.
Comments
That's exactly why people are bitchin about this. And as I continually, repeat... you never win. It is an illusion. If you're not playing MMO's for the journey, you're wasting your time because there is no prize at the end.
Hacks, bugs, exploits are within the realm of responsibility of the developer to fix ( or better yet, not create in the first place ). I don't condone the activity but its silly to think players won't abuse such advantages when presented with the opportunity. Assuming players will not exploit is like designing a bathtub with a hole in the bottom and then freaking out when the water pours out below. These are technological challenges to be addressed and the onus is on the developer not to turn out crap. I'm sorry but you simply cannot blame the players for everything in world that goes wrong in your game ( well, I suppose you could but with no productive outcome ). Why instead of arguing with me don't you solve the problem and develop a way to remove from the game incentives to cheat. Tell me how you are practically going to remove hundreds of thousands of players who might actually buy something third party. Most companies ban the seller and just give the buyer a warning for a reason, and its because they can't justify closing buyer accounts. Look, even if you "won" this argument it doesn't mean anything because you can't fix this. Sorry.
You can't design a game that removes the incentive to cheat. The incentive to cheat comes from the fact that certain players want to have advantages in the game, but don't want to actually put any effort into the game to get it, aka actualyl playing the damn game how it's meant to be played. The only way you could remotely achieve this, would be to remove progression, but in doing so you're basically removing one of the defining aspects of the genre itself.
---EVEN SO---
As I repeatedly state: There. Are. MMOs. That. Are. Specifically. Made. For. People. Who. Like. RMT.
There are several options of games for people who want RMT, yet instead some gamers insist on playing games that forbid it and do it anyways.
I don't play RMT games and then complain that there's RMT. I respect the fact that those games are designed for an audience that like RMT, and I simply avoid them. You and others however, seem to have no respect for the developers and players of games that forbid RMT.
You're not going to change anyones opinion, just like I'm sure I'm not going to change yours.
So I'm just going to leave things with this...
I won't shed a tear if you sink money into a game via RMT, and then get banned for it because it violates the rules of the game. The more people like yourself who get burned by this, the happier I will be.
This one SENTENCE says enough why i NEVER play such games, for me its still cheating your way to the top without playing, and its also a bullshit arguement why they should do implement it.
"Casual gamers get the chance to play with the big boys (hard core gamers) through this trading, by getting up-to-par items through virtual currency or real world currency."
Casual or not if you can't comepete with hardcore thats how it always should be. Its also unfair to those can or devoting more to there game and play it hardcore.
Your after all not for nothing called CASUAL if you have family or work wel thats obvious then you can't have it all or you dont wanne sweat alittle you should not getting it through easy way also.
Nomatter how hard this topic try promote RTM its cheating and unfair to those who wanne play themselfs.
Less and less games are populated with gamers like me who play as games ment to be played without any cheat/exploit/hack or gold/item buying. I also never visit sites for walkthroughs guidance or any tips i find out everything by myself.
But i know im a dying breed im affraid LAST THERE MOHICANS:(
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
How does RMT advance a character in a BOP game? Raid guilds do not sell "seats" - I've played plenty of games, and have never seen this offer. Why do those need gold/plat, anyways?
People use gold/plat for alts. Sadly, a meaningless part of BOP games.
As I said, it happened all the time in WoW back when I was still playing. The leading raid guilds on the server I played on would sell a slot or two for the previous tier's raid, to raise funds for consumables and repairs for the latest raid tier. They would advertise in trade chat all the time. Heck the raid guild I was in had offers from players to take them through, though we never did. Although, we did sell a few of the epic BoE drops that we got and didn't need... so yeah, there's also that.
I'm not going to hold my breath that you will ever be happy because there will always be someone going 60 in the 55 mph zone.
When you are paying money for a service, and you are denied that service than it is a real world consequence. I am paying $15 a month to play under a ruleset put in place by the seller of this service. If you break that ruleset in a way that makes the game no fun for those who are simply paying for the service and playing by the rules, than you are in essence destroying $15 from me and the thousands of others who are negatively impacted. In my opinion you are doing the equivalent of $15 a month destruction of property to thousands of people. Just like if you went into a neighborhood and egged 1000 houses. I think you could and should be prosecuted for this, with real world consequences.
And you will say, well no real property is being destroyed so you can't prosecute me under that law. That is why they then introduced other laws such as wire fraud, etc to get around that loop hole. You could actually be prosecuted if somebody had the cojones to do it.. I would applaud it if they did. And yes, you can't catch everybody. But when you do catch somebody, you should throw the book at them or make them reimburse everybody their subscription fees back.
You seem to think your actions are meaningless, but there are real people affected by your actions in the online world. Maybe you think cyber-bullying for instance is ok to? Or maybe you think impersonating onther person online is ok too? Hey, its all just bits and pixles right?
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Wire fraud doesn't apply to RMT, mainly because you aren't defrauding anyone. Seller sells gold, seller gets cash, customer gets product. There is no fraud. Besides, the game company owns the intellectual property and retains the right to close your account, so you aren't selling "gold" anyway, you are only selling your time. Time which, btw, the sale of cannot be limited by a EULA, even if the player agrees to it, because your right to contract is protected by Article 1 Section 10 of the US Constitution. Just like you could sign a contract agreeing to be a slave, and it would be voided by the courts. Believe me, we jumped through these hoops 10 years ago on Terra Nova ad infinitum. The only relief a game company has ( or properly should have ) in the USA against RMT is to close the offending account. Putting someone in prison, well this is just a 14-year olds fantasy that would never come to pass, and if it did would effectively kill the industry because I'm sure as hell not going to give a Game Master that kind of authorty over me ( as no thinking person would ). You might, but not me.
As far as my actions go inside a game, yes I believe they are largely meaningless. That you ascribe such value to your video game that you are willing to imprison others to preserve a false perception that the game is fair is, IMO narcissistic and contemptible. Knowing that someone could think this way makes me lose all hope in democracy. Next thing you know we'll have torture camps for people who text while driving. Anyway. You guys are addicts and need to get out of the house. Find a girlfriend or something. RMT is about as "immoral" as smuggling food into a movie theater.
I used wire fraud as an example of how the law has adjusted in the past, but there are also hacking laws being enacted all over the country as well but they are less mature and the courts haven't resolved their applicablity yet. When you take or destroy value in this world, eventually the laws will catch up with you. Even identify theft was hard to prosecute for a while until the laws catch up.
How about the case where in PVP you use a lag hack to lag all of your opponents? This actually is a tactic that is used in online FPS multiplayer sometimes, especially a few years ago. Would that be crossing the line in your book or hey, its only bits and pixels we are all here just to have fun?
How about MMORPG traces your IP address and applies a denial of service attack on your ip address whenever that ip address is playing in an MMO? Would that be ok or would you feel your fun has been impeded?
There are rules and laws and its easy to say you don't need to follow them, but that doesn't make you right...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
WIN
There's that selfishness again. The industry will fail if they do something YOU disagree with? Its ok to cheat because YOU find no meaning in a game? Everyone who plays by the rules and dislikes cheating is an addict and needs to "get a girlfriend or something" because YOU dont want to play by the rules? That's really kind of sad.
Btw, an addict isn't someone who enjoys life normally. An addict goes outside the norm to get the kind of enjoyment out of life that other people either experience normally, or don't need at all. Which one of us does that sound like here? The one that can't enjoy a game without going outside the rules, or the one who plays within the set standards?
Again I ask, how would you feel if other people cheated in every game you've ever played?
Trying to extrapolate your views by building links between the virtual world and the real world is a good tactic. I use it all the times when discussing games. Still...
...that doesnt change the fact that exchanging any kind of game asset, outside the game infrastructure, for real money is considered cheating. I have read all your green posts, like the color btw, but still you have failed to present a valid point to defend your need to "bypass" all the other gamer time efforts by exhorting other people to do the same as you do.
Now, what you should be saying is: "i support RMT, even if you guys dont, i do know is cheating, but i dont see it that way. But please, if you are true to game balance and fairplay, please dont do like i do."
I would give you a thumbs up and continue with my zig-zag...
@FrostWyrm :
You know what, seriously... no one is going to HELL because they bought or sold gold in a video game. Bottom line. Not a big deal. If I died tonight and stood before God, he isn't going to flip through a record book of how many times I ran a macro in UO.
@Clerigo :
I concede that anything is cheating if its against the rules, but since this particular form of cheating is no different from being twinked by your friends.. meh. I can't take it any more seriously than smuggling my own food into a theater. These other guys want me to feel guilt or something because I sold a player a sword? As Dr. Evil would say, Howbout Nooo.
You say I haven't presented "a valid point to defend my need to bypass other gamers time and efforts" but I could have sworn I pointed out that there is no winner in these games, there is no reward for getting to the "end" because there is no end. If I'm enabling a player to level to max on his alt faster, wtf difference does it make? Maybe the player already has a main that could have kicked ass in PVP but he's choosing to level a lowbie today instead. Are we seriously willing to derive our satisfaction in a game by comparing our rate of advancement against everyone else's perceived rate of advancement? The problem with that I see is that even in a world where no one RMT's, there is always some paranoid schizophrenic dude who is going to be unhappy because he assumes something is going on when it isn't. That's why I call it the "someone somewhere is having a party" syndrome. Honestly, what I think is going on, you have a lot of people who are burned out on MMOs, but like a trained lab rat keep mashing the lever for a pellet, hoping to reclaim their virgin MMO fix. And it isn't happening, they aren't happy with their game, not really, and when something like RMT rears its head, they latch onto it immediately as a culprit and blame it for why their game is failing, or uninteresting or unsatisfying. Happiness is a state of mind. I don't believe the veteran gamer can be totally pleased either. Gamers are a difficult demographic. I would recommend people be less worried about the monetization of a game economy ( take it instead as an indicator of real value - something every game should want ) and focus more on what type of game experience they want to have, but they need to leave the whole personal leaderboard mentality behind. As far as I know, most of these games don't have a prize for who has leveled the most alts in the quickest amount of time, or who has skipped the most in-game content because they power-leveled. The joy of the MMO is supposed to be the journey and if you aren't enjoying the journey you really have other problems with the game.
I probably wouldnt go to hell (if there is such a place) for kicking a puppy either. That doesn't make it ok.
Your sole argument (and a weak one at that) is still that there are worse things in the world than cheating. Claiming genocide is far worse than theft doesn't give you the right to steal. You still failed to answer the question I've asked you twice already as well. How would you feel if other people cheated in every game you played? Not just video games, but any game at all.
You said yourself "The joy of the MMO is supposed to be the journey and if you aren't enjoying the journey you really have other problems with the game." So if you're not enjoying the game as it is, why would you pay even more to play it rather than finding one that better suits you? Why would you give someone else money to experience the journey for you?
Anyway, the fact that you cheat, and you not only expect people to be ok with it, but feel as though you're somehow entitled to do so, says to me that you have other problems beside the game itself.
The problem is that, Companies do not make Games for the Journey anymore, because RMT is taking over.
No one would make a game with the tediums of EQ today, RMT would be all over the pace selling gold and leveling services.
So RMT is responsible in a way for the "nerfing" of games, because it takes advantage of key areas that were originally meant to constitute the journey and break those rules so that players now see it as a competition of who gets it first and fastest.
Someone mentioned Epic Mounts in WoW. Originally it was suposed to be something that a character Achieves over time and it is a testimony to thier experience and knowledge in the game. RMT came in now, any noob can just buy a leveled up character with an Epic mount..the experience of the player that actually Achieved the mount is now Cheapened, he/she may even decide to play something else in the mean time.
It is not for nothing that Blizz, had to address this by lowering prices and adding more ways for players to get the gold so they can achieve the mount without having to resort to RMT, and trust me in the vanilla days many people paid to get that gold for the mounts.
We cannot just say, "Enjoy the Journey" when RMT removes its meaning and cheapens its experience.
Players do not play only for themselves in games, they play in relation to other players in game too. If one finds a Flaming sword in a specific cave, everyone that sees that sword will ask him where to get one too, and everyone rushes to the Cave.
RMT is playing on that psychology by taking advantage of game design elements that are meant to be about the journey.
It is hard to level in a given game? No Problem, few bucks here and we will level the char for you!
It is hard to make in game curency? No Problem, we can sell it to you!
it is hard to have a flaming sword? No problem you can buy it here!
Get the point? It cannot be about the journey when RMT offers a teleporter Service for a few bucks. The journey loses its meaning and people then play who gets to point B first or fastest.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
RMT is cheating in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs. --- RMT is acceptable in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs. --- Why is it so hard for people who want RMT to just play one of the MMOs that allows it, and leave the ones that disallow RMT to the gamers who don't like RMT in their games? The only person being selfish in their views is yourself, because you want to play by your own rules, and not those that are decided by the people who developed and run the game and which most players abide by. I have no problem with RMT existing in an MMO, so long as it is intended and accepted that RMT is part of said game. I personally however, will not play such MMOs and will only play those that abide by the concept that RMT harms the spirit of gameplay, but I still respect that some people do prefer this type of game design. You however, disregard that many developers and players dislike RMT, and rules be damned because you want to be able to do what you want when you want, and no one should try stop you because in your perception 'it's inevitable' and 'it's not hurting anyone'. By the logic you are using, abusing in-game exploits, bugs, and client hacks should all be fair game.
Hacks, bugs, exploits are within the realm of responsibility of the developer to fix ( or better yet, not create in the first place ). I don't condone the activity but its silly to think players won't abuse such advantages when presented with the opportunity. Assuming players will not exploit is like designing a bathtub with a hole in the bottom and then freaking out when the water pours out below. These are technological challenges to be addressed and the onus is on the developer not to turn out crap. I'm sorry but you simply cannot blame the players for everything in world that goes wrong in your game ( well, I suppose you could but with no productive outcome ). Why instead of arguing with me don't you solve the problem and develop a way to remove from the game incentives to cheat. Tell me how you are practically going to remove hundreds of thousands of players who might actually buy something third party. Most companies ban the seller and just give the buyer a warning for a reason, and its because they can't justify closing buyer accounts. Look, even if you "won" this argument it doesn't mean anything because you can't fix this. Sorry.
The morality isn't in the RMT itself, but in the agreement between the developer and the player. The developer creates a set of rules, which the player agrees to follow when they decide to play the game. If climbing trees in a game is against the rules, even if it's possible, then climbing trees is 'wrong' and should be punished because the player is violating the agreement. Opinions on the morality of climbing trees is irrelevant. It's against the rules of the game that players agreed to when they decided to play the game.
You can get into long discussions (as is happening here) on the relative merits of RMT, why developers should (or shouldn't) set rules on it and ultimately you get nowhere because there is no morality involved, other than the morality of abiding by the rules.
Developers are already doing things to curb the behavior. They know they can't stop it, so they minimize it and minimize the impact on the players that do abide by their agreements.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think you better recheck your understanding of the definition of morality.
If the rules state that it is wrong to do X, and you break those rules and do X you just commited and immoral act because it is wrong to do X when the rules state that you should not.
Morality is about right or wrong. Doing the right thing is moral, doing the wrong thing is immoral, as simple as that.
Therefore, if a game does not permit RMT and you participate in RMT activities you are doing something wrong within the context of that game's rules, hence comiting an immoral act.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
So you admit you are a cheat and proud of it. I just find it amazing what people admit to on the net.
Change the 'R" to 'D' and then we're talkin bout different perspective.
i think it's safe the debate is over for now. Leave the RMT to the games that don't want to creatively find a way around it. RMT supporters are people that would ultimately throw extra money at single player games if it means they could beat it faster so trying to argue with them is similar to teaching physics to "downies". Just imagining it is cruelty enough.
You just kind of said what I said. RMT in and of itself is amoral, not immoral. The morality is in the agreement between the developer and the player. If the player breaks that agreement, then it's immoral.
** edit **
Also, I'm not sure what happened to the formatting of the posts. The editor borked them.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yes it was a clarification, still I think now we agree that RMT is immoral when conducted in games that do not condone the activity, and I beleive it is in that spirit that many here made their arguments.
OffGamers breaks the rules and incites players to break the rules too in those cases, for its own self interest, it is worse than immoral.
And I am surprised that the author of the OP is not picking up on that, the OP itself is promoting immoral acts under this context too.
Bottom line is, if there is to be RMT it should be offered by the creator of the game like microtransactions. Third Party entities are not needed or desired, they are opportunists.
Specially in games that do not condone the activity.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
It truly is that simple.
Some pretty funny stuff here and peoples perceptions:)
Might as well just decide to live with it... rmt will be here forever in fact I bet more companies make it a part of there games so they can be middle man instead of companies like OffGamers which will put most of them out of business maybe?
But the only way to really stop them is to remove the need for them which will never happen. All games put way to much dependancy in items and not enough on gameplay etc. UO was great in that everyone could get best items but most games make items have to be farmed etc making people need to buy/sell them creating the rmt need. Like i said it will never happen that it will go away so live with it.