It's fair. I worked for my money. I paid them. They worked to get the gold. They sold me the gold. They obviously have time that I don't have or am willing to sacrifice from my family.
At the end of the day, if I buy a lvl 10000000000 epic super flying mount that shoots rainbows out it's ass and you work 100 hrs to do the same.... it's none of your damned business if I got mine with RMT or earned it in game.
FFS, the take home from this, is cry me a freakin' river that I have earned every penny in my bank and get to spend it how I say. If I wanna buy 10K gold, that's my problem.
No, thats not fair. To anyone else.
You really can't reason with someone who is willing to lie and cheat. That is what RMT is all about. People who buy into RMT don't care if they aren't playing by the rules, if they lie about it, justify cheating with shallow rationalizations, or anything else immoral. They are only concerned about themselves and that is what RMT is all about. That attitude, along with the immoral and illegal activities that support it, are what makes it a detriment to community gaming.
You won't ever convince them that what they're doing is wrong because they don't care.
I've had a few former friends and guildies that admitted they buy gold and items, use bots and hacks, and exploit when they can. Some people are just like that.
The best thing you can do is shun them.
Yeah, and thats the problem. I'm just tired of people thinking robbing others is ok. The way to stop it is standing up to these people. If no one stands up, then nothing ever gets better.
Who is robbing who now? WTF are you talking about?
Where exactly do you think they get so many items and gold hmm? Why do you think you get those emails trying to get you to log in. Last I looked, they're called "phishing". Think about it. This gold seller site is accepting money from people who do this and trying to justify it as just being the middle man.
Now... why exactly did you need that explained to you? Why wasn't it obvious to you just reading what I said rather than you needing it spelled out for you? Why exactly did I need to spell it out for you? Here's a suggestion in this world... you might like to try thinking beyond the exact words written on the screen. It will help you a great deal to survive in the world if you can think beyond exactly what you see.
I didn't read the original article fully cause i really don't care who they are or what they do. Im aware of pishing but it more like open email read,laugh and delete. You know where the most hacked accounts come from? Fansites. They are often badly secured and many users use same data as for their wow accounts. But i really don't care about all of that. You see just cause some rob people to resell it doesn't mean the whole market is build of robbers. If there is a guy in another country who makes more money working in a game and selling his virtual currency more power to him for beeing rational. People really shouldn't complain about that when they buy all their clothing produced the same way.
For those who dont know:
Check Return-Path in the email-header to see if it's from the game company If its pishing its mostly flatout aol yahoo or whatever, they rarely mask it
OKAY... who gave Rod Blagojevich an mmorpg.com account?
Seriously the people who see no problem with RMT disgust me. I find it outright f----iing hilarious that this site will mod people discussing private servers... but talking about RMT is okay.
I understand your POV. You seem to get mine. That's all that matters. None of these people understand that they are taking a holier-than-thou and shit-don't-stink attitude. I will continue to do my thing (which has YET to result in a ban on ANY game... perhaps because I don't buy 8gazillion and just buy what I need). You guys can scorn me and I will continue to enjoy my games on MY terms.
Consequently, I played through the FFXI fiasco. S-E was thoroughly screwed because (at the time) it was a growing issue that most were unaware of. FFXI was hurt because of S-E's FAILURE to respond in time. Game companies expect that they release a world and expect it to exist. MOST seem oblivious to the fact that they need to be engaged in the economy.
Moving. on. RMT users are amongst you. Some of you are out right liars to save face. Others I can truly believe think that you're above it.
And I swear to God if I get called kid one more time... Do you want me to start calling you boy? son? or another belittling title? Grow-up. Man-up. Don't try to belittle me and empower yourself with such a cheap tactic.
Since 99% of games have some sort of cash shop I'm actually amazed people are still concerned about this. Then, when you think that 99% of games have BOP items I wonder who the heck cares if someone bought all the gold/plat on the server. They can't buy BOP items.
Since 99% of games have some sort of cash shop I'm actually amazed people are still concerned about this. Then, when you think that 99% of games have BOP items I wonder who the heck cares if someone bought all the gold/plat on the server. They can't buy BOP items.
BoP isn't a complete deterrent.
There a raid guilds that sell raid positions and guarantee loot drops (if they drop) to players for content they have on farm. I've seen in being advertised in trade chat for the many years that I played WoW.
Which would be a perfectly legit thing to do... provided said person buying their way through raid content to gear up wasn't paying for it with RMT... but I guarantee that several of them were, considering the prices were so ridiculously high that a casual player wouldn't be able to afford it... yet several seemed to have the gold.
Either way, RMT is cheating the game. It surprises me how many people are too lazy to actually play the game to advance, especially with how ridiciulously quick and easy MMOs have become. If some people really don't have the time to spend a few hours a week to play an MMO, maybe they should find a new hobby.
Consequently, I played through the FFXI fiasco. S-E was thoroughly screwed because (at the time) it was a growing issue that most were unaware of. FFXI was hurt because of S-E's FAILURE to respond in time. Game companies expect that they release a world and expect it to exist. MOST seem oblivious to the fact that they need to be engaged in the economy.
So then you understand what can happen because of RMTs. This is why so many people are against it. People like Jackie dont seem to understand, or just fail to acknowledge, that it does have a very real, very negative impact on a game's economy. FFXI only became an extreme case because SE did nothing about it at first. I used it as an example because this is the very thing game devs, and legitimate players alike, would like to avoid in their games of choice.
I understand your POV. You seem to get mine. That's all that matters. None of these people understand that they are taking a holier-than-thou and shit-don't-stink attitude. I will continue to do my thing (which has YET to result in a ban on ANY game... perhaps because I don't buy 8gazillion and just buy what I need). You guys can scorn me and I will continue to enjoy my games on MY terms.
Consequently, I played through the FFXI fiasco. S-E was thoroughly screwed because (at the time) it was a growing issue that most were unaware of. FFXI was hurt because of S-E's FAILURE to respond in time. Game companies expect that they release a world and expect it to exist. MOST seem oblivious to the fact that they need to be engaged in the economy.
Moving. on. RMT users are amongst you. Some of you are out right liars to save face. Others I can truly believe think that you're above it.
And I swear to God if I get called kid one more time... Do you want me to start calling you boy? son? or another belittling title? Grow-up. Man-up. Don't try to belittle me and empower yourself with such a cheap tactic.
Well, then that makes us better people than you doesn't it. Because we don't cheat. I don't know what your mother taught you growing up, but mine taught me cheating is wrong. Maybe you should take a moral lesson from that.
I think if a game is multiplayer, where lots of people are playing and the actions of one player can affect another, then all players need to follow the rules or be punished. There is no need to run around in circles trying to argue this one way or the other, because society has already determined that is how it needs to be over several thousand years of human experience. Laws in real society are made and enforced to make life better for everybody, and breaking the law lands you in jail. There is really no difference in an online world, so if you are breaking the rules you have to expect that if you are caught you will be banned.
Now, on the other hand, if a game makes the rules such that you can purchase an advantage (such as EVE online with buying ISK) legally and in fact sanctioned by the game rules, than of course you can do it in that case. In fact I think more games in the future will allow buying advantage (like Diablo 3) because if it is allowed in the rules then the company can profit off of it as the middle man between the buyers and the spammers.
What I hope they do though in that case, is simply make it clear who has purchased an advantage. Maybe brand them with a scarlet letter (maybe an $) on their characters forehead in the game or something. That way those that don't choose to do so can differentiate themselves. Or instead maybe the gear on those that don't purchase advantage is shinier or a certain color.
But, other then when it is allowed by the rules, cheating in multiplayer games should be punished by jailtime in the real world if it were up to me. You are ruining the experiences of all those around you. Basically you are robbing me of my subscription money by ruining my experience. No better than somebody who steals $15 from me in the real world. It might be fun for PwN3R187 to mop up the PVP scene with his purchased advantage, but it isn't fun for those around him.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I think if a game is multiplayer, where lots of people are playing and the actions of one player can affect another, then all players need to follow the rules or be punished. There is no need to run around in circles trying to argue this one way or the other, because society has already determined that is how it needs to be over several thousand years of human experience. Laws in real society are made and enforced to make life better for everybody, and breaking the law lands you in jail. There is really no difference in an online world, so if you are breaking the rules you have to expect that if you are caught you will be banned.
Now, on the other hand, if a game makes the rules such that you can purchase an advantage (such as EVE online with buying ISK) legally and in fact sanctioned by the game rules, than of course you can do it in that case. In fact I think more games in the future will allow buying advantage (like Diablo 3) because if it is allowed in the rules then the company can profit off of it as the middle man between the buyers and the spammers.
What I hope they do though in that case, is simply make it clear who has purchased an advantage. Maybe brand them with a scarlet letter (maybe an $) on their characters forehead in the game or something. That way those that don't choose to do so can differentiate themselves. Or instead maybe the gear on those that don't purchase advantage is shinier or a certain color.
But, other then when it is allowed by the rules, cheating in multiplayer games should be punished by jailtime in the real world if it were up to me. You are ruining the experiences of all those around you. Basically you are robbing me of my subscription money by ruining my experience. No better than somebody who steals $15 from me in the real world. It might be fun for PwN3R187 to mop up the PVP scene with his purchased advantage, but it isn't fun for those around him.
I don't know what your mother taught you growing up, but mine taught me cheating is wrong. Maybe you should take a moral lesson from that.
Take a moral lesson? There is a case of ZERO moral gravity. There is your moral lesson. What happens in an MMO doesn't mean squat except to some pathetic individual whose world is so small and limited that their enjoyment of life is impacted by the perception that some other 14-year old has more points than they do. Come talk to me about morals when we're talking about income taxes or shoplifting. Extrapolating morality into an MMO is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Are you a murderer for PK'ing another player? Are you a thief for looting their body? Are you scum for stealing a kill? What happens in the real world and what happens in a video game are NOT equivalent.
I think if a game is multiplayer, where lots of people are playing and the actions of one player can affect another, then all players need to follow the rules or be punished. There is no need to run around in circles trying to argue this one way or the other, because society has already determined that is how it needs to be over several thousand years of human experience. Laws in real society are made and enforced to make life better for everybody, and breaking the law lands you in jail. There is really no difference in an online world, so if you are breaking the rules you have to expect that if you are caught you will be banned. *SNIP*
You're confusing the real world with the imaginary one.
And for the record, the real world allows some negative behaviors to take place because 1) prohibiting them is unenforceable, and 2) economic liberty has value.
The reason we're going in circles arguing this is because you CAN'T eliminate RMT ( unless maybe you make the game suck so bad that no one wants to play ). Having a rule against it sounds good on paper, never works in practice. I guarantee you there will be RMT in every game that comes out this year, trade mechanics allowing. The most enlightened thing for companies to do is embrace the dynamic and make the market inclusive so everyone can participate. Look at Diablo III. Blizzard figured out whats up.
cheating in multiplayer games should be punished by jailtime in the real world if it were up to me. You are ruining the experiences of all those around you.
OMG. Only a totally self-centered, narcissistic person would have such an attitude. You would JAIL people in real life because they interfere with your PLAY? Where do you live, North Korea or Iran? This is an expression of pure selfishness and complete lack of education regarding the precepts of liberty the USA was founded on.
I don't know what your mother taught you growing up, but mine taught me cheating is wrong. Maybe you should take a moral lesson from that.
Take a moral lesson? There is a case of ZERO moral gravity. There is your moral lesson. What happens in an MMO doesn't mean squat except to some pathetic individual whose world is so small and limited that their enjoyment of life is impacted by the perception that some other 14-year old has more points than they do. Come talk to me about morals when we're talking about income taxes or shoplifting. Extrapolating morality into an MMO is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Are you a murderer for PK'ing another player? Are you a thief for looting their body? Are you scum for stealing a kill? What happens in the real world and what happens in a video game are NOT equivalent.
...but the cheating is happening in the real world. If you're playing poker and you cheat by sneaking cards into your hand that you didn't pull...guess what...its cheating. In a card game people sometimes get shot over that.
There's so much denial in every neon green word you post. If you want to talk about real world vs game world, leave the real world (RMT) OUT of the game world.
I don't know what your mother taught you growing up, but mine taught me cheating is wrong. Maybe you should take a moral lesson from that.
Take a moral lesson? There is a case of ZERO moral gravity. There is your moral lesson. What happens in an MMO doesn't mean squat except to some pathetic individual whose world is so small and limited that their enjoyment of life is impacted by the perception that some other 14-year old has more points than they do. Come talk to me about morals when we're talking about income taxes or shoplifting. Extrapolating morality into an MMO is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Are you a murderer for PK'ing another player? Are you a thief for looting their body? Are you scum for stealing a kill? What happens in the real world and what happens in a video game are NOT equivalent.
...but the cheating is happening in the real world. If you're playing poker and you cheat by sneaking cards into your hand that you didn't pull...guess what...its cheating. In a card game people sometimes get shot over that.
There's so much denial in every neon green word you post. If you want to talk about real world vs game world, leave the real world (RMT) OUT of the game world.
Jackie, seriously. What is wrong with your morals? Cheating is cheating. It doesn't matter where its happening, cheating is still wrong. Stop trying to make excuses for your bad behavior. You know what you're doing is wrong. The reason why you're defending it so hard is that you feel guilty.
As Shakespeare once said... "Methinks thou dost protest too much". You KNOW you're in the wrong here.
I think if a game is multiplayer, where lots of people are playing and the actions of one player can affect another, then all players need to follow the rules or be punished. There is no need to run around in circles trying to argue this one way or the other, because society has already determined that is how it needs to be over several thousand years of human experience. Laws in real society are made and enforced to make life better for everybody, and breaking the law lands you in jail. There is really no difference in an online world, so if you are breaking the rules you have to expect that if you are caught you will be banned. *SNIP*
You're confusing the real world with the imaginary one.
And for the record, the real world allows some negative behaviors to take place because 1) prohibiting them is unenforceable, and 2) economic liberty has value.
The reason we're going in circles arguing this is because you CAN'T eliminate RMT ( unless maybe you make the game suck so bad that no one wants to play ). Having a rule against it sounds good on paper, never works in practice. I guarantee you there will be RMT in every game that comes out this year, trade mechanics allowing. The most enlightened thing for companies to do is embrace the dynamic and make the market inclusive so everyone can participate. Look at Diablo III. Blizzard figured out whats up.
Game developers dictate the rules of their game. Many have decided that RMT is against the rules, usually because it goes against the spirit of the game and is otherwise harmful to the ingame economy. If you break the rules, then you deserve to be banned, period.
Trying to justify RMT is just nonsense. Yes, it will never be completely stopped. But then again, neither will narcotics, theft, murder, etc. That doesn't mean you just throw your hands up and give up. In fact, this kind of logic tends to be used by people who stand to gain from the removal of such policing.
If you want to buy your way through a game, play one of the countless cash shop games in existence that encourage and even offer avenues of RMT, or any other MMO that allows it. Otherwise if you're playing a game that disallows RMT, and you partake in RMT, you're cheating and deserve to be banned.
...but the cheating is happening in the real world. If you're playing poker and you cheat by sneaking cards into your hand that you didn't pull...guess what...its cheating. In a card game people sometimes get shot over that.
There's so much denial in every neon green word you post. If you want to talk about real world vs game world, leave the real world (RMT) OUT of the game world.
You have yet to tell me what you're winning. Who won WoW? Who won DAoC? MMOs don't have a discrete goal other than the one you choose for yourself. You fail to describe the difference between a player who has friends who gift him gold and a player who has no friends and buys gold. Ultimately twinking is what we're talking about here, and I refuse to see a difference between player A spending social capital to get stuff and player B spending cash. In game terms, a transaction occurs and it is mathematically identical.
In the real world, companies mass manufacture products that before people used to make by hand. Are they cheating? By making things easier to obtain and pissing off the luddites that suddenly found their stone age techniques slow and economically impractical? All RMT does is export economic principles which we know work in the real world to the game world. And there is nothing you can do about it. Except bitch. If you want to play a game where no one aspires to personal gain, I suggest you figure out a way to prevent players from entering your game who would be willing to buy something. Unfortunately that would skewer your profitability to the point you wouldn't have a game after that, you wouldn't have the minimum necessary server population to keep people from thinking your game sucks and is on the way down. I'm not in denial. I understand your perspective. Honestly I believe people are probably burning out on MMO's, have no idea how to reclaim their virgin MMO fix, so they blame their dissatisfaction on this other activity, which honestly is probably the best measure of a successful game. If no one is RMT'ing your game - its because it sucks. The moment a gold seller takes your game off his website because its not worth messing with, that's the moment you know your product is circling the drain.
Anyway, you want to know "whats wrong" with my morals? Nothing. Little girls aren't going hungry because I ran a macro. Nobody is homeless or walking around barefoot IRL because I sold some player a new sword. It's called perspective. Gamers are addicts and they have NO perspective. I find it amusing and hypocritical that so many players think its unfair that other people have to work a job they hate, come home and with limited time in the evening, choose to spend cash on a game. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the adult be jealous of the 14-year old who doesn't have to work for a living? Is there moral value in what I do if I conserve the working persons free time? Is there moral value in what you do if you spend all your free time playing a GAME?
Trying to justify RMT is just nonsense. Yes, it will never be completely stopped. But then again, neither will narcotics, theft, murder, etc. That doesn't mean you just throw your hands up and give up. In fact, this kind of logic tends to be used by people who stand to gain from the removal of such policing.
Good point - you don't throw your hands up when you're talking about narcotics, theft and murder. But you do throw your hands up when you're talking about drinking beer and any number of lesser undesirable behaviors. RMT is more like drinking beer than murdering your neighbor. In fact, its less serious, even trivial, because no one DIES because someone RMT'd. Anyone who says otherwise is exaggerating. Like I said in a previous post, people have no perpective.
Originally posted by jackie28 Originally posted by Ceridith Trying to justify RMT is just nonsense. Yes, it will never be completely stopped. But then again, neither will narcotics, theft, murder, etc. That doesn't mean you just throw your hands up and give up. In fact, this kind of logic tends to be used by people who stand to gain from the removal of such policing.
Good point - you don't throw your hands up when you're talking about narcotics, theft and murder. But you do throw your hands up when you're talking about drinking beer and any number of lesser undesirable behaviors. RMT is more like drinking beer than murdering your neighbor. In fact, its less serious, even trivial, because no one DIES because someone RMT'd. Anyone who says otherwise is exaggerating. Like I said in a previous post, people have no perpective.
If using RMT breaks the rules of the game you're playing, as set by the developer, then you're cheating and should suffer some sort of consequences for cheating. In that case, RMT is only the method used to cheat and isn't 'bad' in and of itself. If using RMT does not break the rules of the game, then you're not cheating and should enjoy your RMT merchandise.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
...but the cheating is happening in the real world. If you're playing poker and you cheat by sneaking cards into your hand that you didn't pull...guess what...its cheating. In a card game people sometimes get shot over that.
There's so much denial in every neon green word you post. If you want to talk about real world vs game world, leave the real world (RMT) OUT of the game world.
You have yet to tell me what you're winning. Who won WoW? Who won DAoC? MMOs don't have a discrete goal other than the one you choose for yourself. You fail to describe the difference between a player who has friends who gift him gold and a player who has no friends and buys gold. Ultimately twinking is what we're talking about here, and I refuse to see a difference between player A spending social capital to get stuff and player B spending cash. In game terms, a transaction occurs and it is mathematically identical.
In the real world, companies mass manufacture products that before people used to make by hand. Are they cheating? By making things easier to obtain and pissing off the luddites that suddenly found their stone age techniques slow and economically impractical? All RMT does is export economic principles which we know work in the real world to the game world. And there is nothing you can do about it. Except bitch. If you want to play a game where no one aspires to personal gain, I suggest you figure out a way to prevent players from entering your game who would be willing to buy something. Unfortunately that would skewer your profitability to the point you wouldn't have a game after that, you wouldn't have the minimum necessary server population to keep people from thinking your game sucks and is on the way down. I'm not in denial. I understand your perspective. Honestly I believe people are probably burning out on MMO's, have no idea how to reclaim their virgin MMO fix, so they blame their dissatisfaction on this other activity, which honestly is probably the best measure of a successful game. If no one is RMT'ing your game - its because it sucks. The moment a gold seller takes your game off his website because its not worth messing with, that's the moment you know your product is circling the drain.
Anyway, you want to know "whats wrong" with my morals? Nothing. Little girls aren't going hungry because I ran a macro. Nobody is homeless or walking around barefoot IRL because I sold some player a new sword. It's called perspective. Gamers are addicts and they have NO perspective. I find it amusing and hypocritical that so many players think its unfair that other people have to work a job they hate, come home and with limited time in the evening, choose to spend cash on a game. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the adult be jealous of the 14-year old who doesn't have to work for a living? Is there moral value in what I do if I conserve the working persons free time? Is there moral value in what you do if you spend all your free time playing a GAME?
What you're doing is called transferrence. You skirt the issue, ignore the facts (you didn't make a single comment on what RMT's did to FFXI) and argue that RMT'ing is ok based solely on the fact that there are worse things in the world. Its the only leg you have to stand on, and you still refuse to even admit that it IS cheating, instead blaming developers for not cutting down the entire tree to get rid of a few bad apples.
Its everyone's fault but yours. That's how you, and probably a lot of other people see it. It would be nice if RMT's were wiped out entirely among games that dont permit it, but I can at least see realistically enough to know that wont likely happen anytime soon if at all.
And to answer your first question, what is "won" or "lost" is an enjoyable game experience in a game world that hasn't been screwed up by greedy people who are either too lazy to play thought the game normally, or too afraid of other being better than them to let it be.
I'm curious, how would you react if others were cheating in every form of game you ever played? Not just MMOs. Not just video games, but EVERY game? Is cheating somehow alright in MMOs and not in other games, or is it only when YOU're the cheater?
For those who dont have much time to play, I'm sorry, that sucks, I've been in that boat before, but if you dont have time, you dont have time. Don't play a game you don't have time to play. Thats just common sense.
Trying to justify RMT is just nonsense. Yes, it will never be completely stopped. But then again, neither will narcotics, theft, murder, etc. That doesn't mean you just throw your hands up and give up. In fact, this kind of logic tends to be used by people who stand to gain from the removal of such policing.
Good point - you don't throw your hands up when you're talking about narcotics, theft and murder. But you do throw your hands up when you're talking about drinking beer and any number of lesser undesirable behaviors. RMT is more like drinking beer than murdering your neighbor. In fact, its less serious, even trivial, because no one DIES because someone RMT'd. Anyone who says otherwise is exaggerating. Like I said in a previous post, people have no perpective.
Wow, you picked a terrible example of 'harmless' undesirable behavior. Alcohol is attributed to tens of thousands of deaths each year in the US alone, ranging from drunk driving, violence stemming from intoxication, and health issues (liver failure).
Besides, using a corked bat or spitball in baseball is against the rules of baseball. But players still do it anyways, and no one DIES from it, right? So why not just let players use corked bats and spitballs?
Why not? because it's NOT trivial with respect to the game, because it goes against the spirit of the game, aka it's cheating.
Which is exactly what RMT is in an MMO that expressly disallows it. If a developer has decided that RMT goes against the intended gameplay and contradicts the spirit of the game, then using RMT is cheating.
You can try to justify cheating all you want, but it does't change the fact that you are still cheating. As I said before, If you want to be able to buy your way through the game, play one of the countless games that is actually built around allowing for just that, and leave the games that don't allow for it to the gamers who actually want to play their games properly and how they're meant to be played.
Trying to justify RMT is just nonsense. Yes, it will never be completely stopped. But then again, neither will narcotics, theft, murder, etc. That doesn't mean you just throw your hands up and give up. In fact, this kind of logic tends to be used by people who stand to gain from the removal of such policing.
Good point - you don't throw your hands up when you're talking about narcotics, theft and murder. But you do throw your hands up when you're talking about drinking beer and any number of lesser undesirable behaviors. RMT is more like drinking beer than murdering your neighbor. In fact, its less serious, even trivial, because no one DIES because someone RMT'd. Anyone who says otherwise is exaggerating. Like I said in a previous post, people have no perpective.
Wow, you picked a terrible example of 'harmless' undesirable behavior. Alcohol is attributed to*SNIP*
I picked it as an example of something that wasn't illegal because prohibition doesn't work. Read and comprehend the rest of my statement. RMT is not equivalent to murder NOR is it equivalent to drinking. RMT is trivial. MMOs are trivial. Entertainment is trivial. When I'm injuring someone we'll talk about morality.
Trying to justify RMT is just nonsense. Yes, it will never be completely stopped. But then again, neither will narcotics, theft, murder, etc. That doesn't mean you just throw your hands up and give up. In fact, this kind of logic tends to be used by people who stand to gain from the removal of such policing.
Good point - you don't throw your hands up when you're talking about narcotics, theft and murder. But you do throw your hands up when you're talking about drinking beer and any number of lesser undesirable behaviors. RMT is more like drinking beer than murdering your neighbor. In fact, its less serious, even trivial, because no one DIES because someone RMT'd. Anyone who says otherwise is exaggerating. Like I said in a previous post, people have no perpective.
Wow, you picked a terrible example of 'harmless' undesirable behavior. Alcohol is attributed to*SNIP*
I picked it as an example of something that wasn't illegal because prohibition doesn't work. Read and comprehend the rest of my statement. RMT is not equivalent to murder NOR is it equivalent to drinking. RMT is trivial. MMOs are trivial. Entertainment is trivial. When I'm injuring someone we'll talk about morality.
In other words, you're being selfish.
Your justification is that RMT doesn't physically harm anyone, so you don't see it as being immoral. RMT doesn't bother you, so it's okay to do.
Which is a selfish way to look at it, because you are completely disregarding the fact that most gamers see RMT as going against the spirit of gameplay, and is therefore cheating.
And RMT does do harm, in that it harms the enjoyment that other players. It ranges from in-game economic damage, to botting and exploiting gold farming, to account theft to re-sell the items. Yup, theft, one of those things I previously listed that you agreed was something worth preventing. Yet if there was no RMT, there would be very little reason for large scale account theft to be going on. Not to mention that RMT is also increasingly being used by organized crime to launder money and therefore aids in real world criminal activity.
The worst part of all of it, is that there are MMOs expressly created to cater to gamers who want RMT. If you want to use RMT, go play one of those, no one is stopping you. Choosing instead to play a game that forbids RMT, and then using RMT, is not only cheating but it's just plain selfish behavior.
If using RMT breaks the rules of the game you're playing, as set by the developer, then you're cheating and should suffer some sort of consequences for cheating. In that case, RMT is only the method used to cheat and isn't 'bad' in and of itself. If using RMT does not break the rules of the game, then you're not cheating and should enjoy your RMT merchandise.
I've never said there shouldn't be consequences for breaking the rules, my point is that anti-RMT rules are stupid and counterproductive to the health of the game because it affirms to the player that his efforts equate to 0. Economic activity that can and WILL occur should be accomodated and protected by the developer, if he's worth his salt, just in the way the government's responsbility is to protect the currency and protect the economy, but also encourage entrepreneurialism and free enterprise. I paid subscription fees on my UO account for a year after I quit playing it because I knew it was worth $400, and eventually I sold it. In other games, they just make sure you know your efforts equate to squat, and you might as well quit the moment you aren't playing.
Yet if there was no RMT, there would be very little reason for large scale account theft to be going on. Not to mention that RMT is also increasingly being used by organized crime to launder money and therefore aids in real world criminal activity.
And you observed this money laundering first hand? *rolls eyes* That's like saying MMOs should be illegal because some people neglect their children, and child neglect wouldn't occur if it weren't for these darned games.
Account theft can controlled programmatically with systems like what RIFT employs. Again, something within the realm of the developer to fix. And don't think for a minute a game that has no RMT potential isn't fair game for hackers. Look at what that group Anonymous does with only chaos as their motive.
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If you want a solution, come up with a design solution OR accept that RMT will occur. Blaming the player for purchasing items when he has a natural motivation to do so is not going to STOP the behavior. Developers should have enough experience by now with the phenomenon to know ( OH WAIT, they DO, and that's why they're integrating item shops and marketplaces like Diablo III ).
The thing is that what you want doesn't exist in nature.
Boy I wish I could make society conform to MY expecations and make ME happy and entertain ME. <-- this is what I'm hearing from you, but the reality is there are other free actors and agents in this universe and they are going about pursuing their self-interest. Your self-interestedness is to play a game without perceiving that the cheating is going on, which IMO is absurd and impossible in scope. I would encourage you to find enjoyment in your game via its content and not worry about what everyone else is doing, because you're not going to control that anyway.
Originally posted by jackie28 Originally posted by lizardbones If using RMT breaks the rules of the game you're playing, as set by the developer, then you're cheating and should suffer some sort of consequences for cheating. In that case, RMT is only the method used to cheat and isn't 'bad' in and of itself. If using RMT does not break the rules of the game, then you're not cheating and should enjoy your RMT merchandise.
I've never said there shouldn't be consequences for breaking the rules, my point is that anti-RMT rules are stupid and counterproductive to the health of the game because it affirms to the player that his efforts equate to 0. Economic activity that can and WILL occur should be accomodated and protected by the developer, if he's worth his salt, just in the way the government's responsbility is to protect the currency and protect the economy, but also encourage entrepreneurialism and free enterprise. I paid subscription fees on my UO account for a year after I quit playing it because I knew it was worth $400, and eventually I sold it. In other games, they just make sure you know your efforts equate to squat, and you might as well quit the moment you aren't playing.
Using your example, Ultima Online wasn't actually worth playing. It failed as a game because you decided it wasn't worth your time to actually play the game.
What was the incentive for UO to improve? None. You kept paying for the game.
RMT removes an essential tool necessary to making good games: player feedback. People will walk through human excrement for money. It's not a stretch to think they'd play a video game if they thought they could make money at it. Someone who plays a game for money doesn't care if it's a good game, they only care about the money they made. Someone who buys their way into a 'win' state (for instance, a max level character account) doesn't care if a game is good or not, and they can't offer any feedback on a game's quality because they didn't play the game. They only care about the 'win' state.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yet if there was no RMT, there would be very little reason for large scale account theft to be going on. Not to mention that RMT is also increasingly being used by organized crime to launder money and therefore aids in real world criminal activity.
And you observed this money laundering first hand? *rolls eyes* That's like saying MMOs should be illegal because some people neglect their children, and child neglect wouldn't occur if it weren't for these darned games.
Account theft can controlled programmatically with systems like what RIFT employs. Again, something within the realm of the developer to fix. And don't think for a minute a game that has no RMT potential isn't fair game for hackers. Look at what that group Anonymous does with only chaos as their motive.
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If you want a solution, come up with a design solution OR accept that RMT will occur. Blaming the player for purchasing items when he has a natural motivation to do so is not going to STOP the behavior. Developers should have enough experience by now with the phenomenon to know ( OH WAIT, they DO, and that's why they're integrating item shops and marketplaces like Diablo III ).
The thing is that what you want doesn't exist in nature.
Boy I wish I could make society conform to MY expecations and make ME happy and entertain ME. <-- this is what I'm hearing from you, but the reality is there are other free actors and agents in this universe and they are going about pursuing their self-interest. Your self-interestedness is to play a game without perceiving that the cheating is going on, which IMO is absurd and impossible in scope. I would encourage you to find enjoyment in your game via its content and not worry about what everyone else is doing, because you're not going to control that anyway.
RMT is cheating in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.
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RMT is acceptable in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.
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Why is it so hard for people who want RMT to just play one of the MMOs that allows it, and leave the ones that disallow RMT to the gamers who don't like RMT in their games?
The only person being selfish in their views is yourself, because you want to play by your own rules, and not those that are decided by the people who developed and run the game and which most players abide by.
I have no problem with RMT existing in an MMO, so long as it is intended and accepted that RMT is part of said game. I personally however, will not play such MMOs and will only play those that abide by the concept that RMT harms the spirit of gameplay, but I still respect that some people do prefer this type of game design. You however, disregard that many developers and players dislike RMT, and rules be damned because you want to be able to do what you want when you want, and no one should try stop you because in your perception 'it's inevitable' and 'it's not hurting anyone'.
By the logic you are using, abusing in-game exploits, bugs, and client hacks should all be fair game.
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OKAY... who gave Rod Blagojevich an mmorpg.com account?
Seriously the people who see no problem with RMT disgust me. I find it outright f----iing hilarious that this site will mod people discussing private servers... but talking about RMT is okay.
Jackie,
I understand your POV. You seem to get mine. That's all that matters. None of these people understand that they are taking a holier-than-thou and shit-don't-stink attitude. I will continue to do my thing (which has YET to result in a ban on ANY game... perhaps because I don't buy 8gazillion and just buy what I need). You guys can scorn me and I will continue to enjoy my games on MY terms.
Consequently, I played through the FFXI fiasco. S-E was thoroughly screwed because (at the time) it was a growing issue that most were unaware of. FFXI was hurt because of S-E's FAILURE to respond in time. Game companies expect that they release a world and expect it to exist. MOST seem oblivious to the fact that they need to be engaged in the economy.
Moving. on. RMT users are amongst you. Some of you are out right liars to save face. Others I can truly believe think that you're above it.
And I swear to God if I get called kid one more time... Do you want me to start calling you boy? son? or another belittling title? Grow-up. Man-up. Don't try to belittle me and empower yourself with such a cheap tactic.
Since 99% of games have some sort of cash shop I'm actually amazed people are still concerned about this. Then, when you think that 99% of games have BOP items I wonder who the heck cares if someone bought all the gold/plat on the server. They can't buy BOP items.
BoP isn't a complete deterrent.
There a raid guilds that sell raid positions and guarantee loot drops (if they drop) to players for content they have on farm. I've seen in being advertised in trade chat for the many years that I played WoW.
Which would be a perfectly legit thing to do... provided said person buying their way through raid content to gear up wasn't paying for it with RMT... but I guarantee that several of them were, considering the prices were so ridiculously high that a casual player wouldn't be able to afford it... yet several seemed to have the gold.
Either way, RMT is cheating the game. It surprises me how many people are too lazy to actually play the game to advance, especially with how ridiciulously quick and easy MMOs have become. If some people really don't have the time to spend a few hours a week to play an MMO, maybe they should find a new hobby.
So then you understand what can happen because of RMTs. This is why so many people are against it. People like Jackie dont seem to understand, or just fail to acknowledge, that it does have a very real, very negative impact on a game's economy. FFXI only became an extreme case because SE did nothing about it at first. I used it as an example because this is the very thing game devs, and legitimate players alike, would like to avoid in their games of choice.
Well, then that makes us better people than you doesn't it. Because we don't cheat. I don't know what your mother taught you growing up, but mine taught me cheating is wrong. Maybe you should take a moral lesson from that.
I think if a game is multiplayer, where lots of people are playing and the actions of one player can affect another, then all players need to follow the rules or be punished. There is no need to run around in circles trying to argue this one way or the other, because society has already determined that is how it needs to be over several thousand years of human experience. Laws in real society are made and enforced to make life better for everybody, and breaking the law lands you in jail. There is really no difference in an online world, so if you are breaking the rules you have to expect that if you are caught you will be banned.
Now, on the other hand, if a game makes the rules such that you can purchase an advantage (such as EVE online with buying ISK) legally and in fact sanctioned by the game rules, than of course you can do it in that case. In fact I think more games in the future will allow buying advantage (like Diablo 3) because if it is allowed in the rules then the company can profit off of it as the middle man between the buyers and the spammers.
What I hope they do though in that case, is simply make it clear who has purchased an advantage. Maybe brand them with a scarlet letter (maybe an $) on their characters forehead in the game or something. That way those that don't choose to do so can differentiate themselves. Or instead maybe the gear on those that don't purchase advantage is shinier or a certain color.
But, other then when it is allowed by the rules, cheating in multiplayer games should be punished by jailtime in the real world if it were up to me. You are ruining the experiences of all those around you. Basically you are robbing me of my subscription money by ruining my experience. No better than somebody who steals $15 from me in the real world. It might be fun for PwN3R187 to mop up the PVP scene with his purchased advantage, but it isn't fun for those around him.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
^^^ QFT this this this
Take a moral lesson? There is a case of ZERO moral gravity. There is your moral lesson. What happens in an MMO doesn't mean squat except to some pathetic individual whose world is so small and limited that their enjoyment of life is impacted by the perception that some other 14-year old has more points than they do. Come talk to me about morals when we're talking about income taxes or shoplifting. Extrapolating morality into an MMO is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Are you a murderer for PK'ing another player? Are you a thief for looting their body? Are you scum for stealing a kill? What happens in the real world and what happens in a video game are NOT equivalent.
You're confusing the real world with the imaginary one.
And for the record, the real world allows some negative behaviors to take place because 1) prohibiting them is unenforceable, and 2) economic liberty has value.
The reason we're going in circles arguing this is because you CAN'T eliminate RMT ( unless maybe you make the game suck so bad that no one wants to play ). Having a rule against it sounds good on paper, never works in practice. I guarantee you there will be RMT in every game that comes out this year, trade mechanics allowing. The most enlightened thing for companies to do is embrace the dynamic and make the market inclusive so everyone can participate. Look at Diablo III. Blizzard figured out whats up.
OMG. Only a totally self-centered, narcissistic person would have such an attitude. You would JAIL people in real life because they interfere with your PLAY? Where do you live, North Korea or Iran? This is an expression of pure selfishness and complete lack of education regarding the precepts of liberty the USA was founded on.
...but the cheating is happening in the real world. If you're playing poker and you cheat by sneaking cards into your hand that you didn't pull...guess what...its cheating. In a card game people sometimes get shot over that.
There's so much denial in every neon green word you post. If you want to talk about real world vs game world, leave the real world (RMT) OUT of the game world.
Jackie, seriously. What is wrong with your morals? Cheating is cheating. It doesn't matter where its happening, cheating is still wrong. Stop trying to make excuses for your bad behavior. You know what you're doing is wrong. The reason why you're defending it so hard is that you feel guilty.
As Shakespeare once said... "Methinks thou dost protest too much". You KNOW you're in the wrong here.
Game developers dictate the rules of their game. Many have decided that RMT is against the rules, usually because it goes against the spirit of the game and is otherwise harmful to the ingame economy. If you break the rules, then you deserve to be banned, period.
Trying to justify RMT is just nonsense. Yes, it will never be completely stopped. But then again, neither will narcotics, theft, murder, etc. That doesn't mean you just throw your hands up and give up. In fact, this kind of logic tends to be used by people who stand to gain from the removal of such policing.
If you want to buy your way through a game, play one of the countless cash shop games in existence that encourage and even offer avenues of RMT, or any other MMO that allows it. Otherwise if you're playing a game that disallows RMT, and you partake in RMT, you're cheating and deserve to be banned.
You have yet to tell me what you're winning. Who won WoW? Who won DAoC? MMOs don't have a discrete goal other than the one you choose for yourself. You fail to describe the difference between a player who has friends who gift him gold and a player who has no friends and buys gold. Ultimately twinking is what we're talking about here, and I refuse to see a difference between player A spending social capital to get stuff and player B spending cash. In game terms, a transaction occurs and it is mathematically identical.
In the real world, companies mass manufacture products that before people used to make by hand. Are they cheating? By making things easier to obtain and pissing off the luddites that suddenly found their stone age techniques slow and economically impractical? All RMT does is export economic principles which we know work in the real world to the game world. And there is nothing you can do about it. Except bitch. If you want to play a game where no one aspires to personal gain, I suggest you figure out a way to prevent players from entering your game who would be willing to buy something. Unfortunately that would skewer your profitability to the point you wouldn't have a game after that, you wouldn't have the minimum necessary server population to keep people from thinking your game sucks and is on the way down. I'm not in denial. I understand your perspective. Honestly I believe people are probably burning out on MMO's, have no idea how to reclaim their virgin MMO fix, so they blame their dissatisfaction on this other activity, which honestly is probably the best measure of a successful game. If no one is RMT'ing your game - its because it sucks. The moment a gold seller takes your game off his website because its not worth messing with, that's the moment you know your product is circling the drain.
Anyway, you want to know "whats wrong" with my morals? Nothing. Little girls aren't going hungry because I ran a macro. Nobody is homeless or walking around barefoot IRL because I sold some player a new sword. It's called perspective. Gamers are addicts and they have NO perspective. I find it amusing and hypocritical that so many players think its unfair that other people have to work a job they hate, come home and with limited time in the evening, choose to spend cash on a game. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the adult be jealous of the 14-year old who doesn't have to work for a living? Is there moral value in what I do if I conserve the working persons free time? Is there moral value in what you do if you spend all your free time playing a GAME?
Good point - you don't throw your hands up when you're talking about narcotics, theft and murder. But you do throw your hands up when you're talking about drinking beer and any number of lesser undesirable behaviors. RMT is more like drinking beer than murdering your neighbor. In fact, its less serious, even trivial, because no one DIES because someone RMT'd. Anyone who says otherwise is exaggerating. Like I said in a previous post, people have no perpective.
If using RMT breaks the rules of the game you're playing, as set by the developer, then you're cheating and should suffer some sort of consequences for cheating. In that case, RMT is only the method used to cheat and isn't 'bad' in and of itself. If using RMT does not break the rules of the game, then you're not cheating and should enjoy your RMT merchandise.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
What you're doing is called transferrence. You skirt the issue, ignore the facts (you didn't make a single comment on what RMT's did to FFXI) and argue that RMT'ing is ok based solely on the fact that there are worse things in the world. Its the only leg you have to stand on, and you still refuse to even admit that it IS cheating, instead blaming developers for not cutting down the entire tree to get rid of a few bad apples.
Its everyone's fault but yours. That's how you, and probably a lot of other people see it. It would be nice if RMT's were wiped out entirely among games that dont permit it, but I can at least see realistically enough to know that wont likely happen anytime soon if at all.
And to answer your first question, what is "won" or "lost" is an enjoyable game experience in a game world that hasn't been screwed up by greedy people who are either too lazy to play thought the game normally, or too afraid of other being better than them to let it be.
I'm curious, how would you react if others were cheating in every form of game you ever played? Not just MMOs. Not just video games, but EVERY game? Is cheating somehow alright in MMOs and not in other games, or is it only when YOU're the cheater?
For those who dont have much time to play, I'm sorry, that sucks, I've been in that boat before, but if you dont have time, you dont have time. Don't play a game you don't have time to play. Thats just common sense.
Wow, you picked a terrible example of 'harmless' undesirable behavior. Alcohol is attributed to tens of thousands of deaths each year in the US alone, ranging from drunk driving, violence stemming from intoxication, and health issues (liver failure).
Besides, using a corked bat or spitball in baseball is against the rules of baseball. But players still do it anyways, and no one DIES from it, right? So why not just let players use corked bats and spitballs?
Why not? because it's NOT trivial with respect to the game, because it goes against the spirit of the game, aka it's cheating.
Which is exactly what RMT is in an MMO that expressly disallows it. If a developer has decided that RMT goes against the intended gameplay and contradicts the spirit of the game, then using RMT is cheating.
You can try to justify cheating all you want, but it does't change the fact that you are still cheating. As I said before, If you want to be able to buy your way through the game, play one of the countless games that is actually built around allowing for just that, and leave the games that don't allow for it to the gamers who actually want to play their games properly and how they're meant to be played.
I picked it as an example of something that wasn't illegal because prohibition doesn't work. Read and comprehend the rest of my statement. RMT is not equivalent to murder NOR is it equivalent to drinking. RMT is trivial. MMOs are trivial. Entertainment is trivial. When I'm injuring someone we'll talk about morality.
In other words, you're being selfish.
Your justification is that RMT doesn't physically harm anyone, so you don't see it as being immoral. RMT doesn't bother you, so it's okay to do.
Which is a selfish way to look at it, because you are completely disregarding the fact that most gamers see RMT as going against the spirit of gameplay, and is therefore cheating.
And RMT does do harm, in that it harms the enjoyment that other players. It ranges from in-game economic damage, to botting and exploiting gold farming, to account theft to re-sell the items. Yup, theft, one of those things I previously listed that you agreed was something worth preventing. Yet if there was no RMT, there would be very little reason for large scale account theft to be going on. Not to mention that RMT is also increasingly being used by organized crime to launder money and therefore aids in real world criminal activity.
The worst part of all of it, is that there are MMOs expressly created to cater to gamers who want RMT. If you want to use RMT, go play one of those, no one is stopping you. Choosing instead to play a game that forbids RMT, and then using RMT, is not only cheating but it's just plain selfish behavior.
I've never said there shouldn't be consequences for breaking the rules, my point is that anti-RMT rules are stupid and counterproductive to the health of the game because it affirms to the player that his efforts equate to 0. Economic activity that can and WILL occur should be accomodated and protected by the developer, if he's worth his salt, just in the way the government's responsbility is to protect the currency and protect the economy, but also encourage entrepreneurialism and free enterprise. I paid subscription fees on my UO account for a year after I quit playing it because I knew it was worth $400, and eventually I sold it. In other games, they just make sure you know your efforts equate to squat, and you might as well quit the moment you aren't playing.
And you observed this money laundering first hand? *rolls eyes* That's like saying MMOs should be illegal because some people neglect their children, and child neglect wouldn't occur if it weren't for these darned games.
Account theft can controlled programmatically with systems like what RIFT employs. Again, something within the realm of the developer to fix. And don't think for a minute a game that has no RMT potential isn't fair game for hackers. Look at what that group Anonymous does with only chaos as their motive.
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If you want a solution, come up with a design solution OR accept that RMT will occur. Blaming the player for purchasing items when he has a natural motivation to do so is not going to STOP the behavior. Developers should have enough experience by now with the phenomenon to know ( OH WAIT, they DO, and that's why they're integrating item shops and marketplaces like Diablo III ).
The thing is that what you want doesn't exist in nature.
Boy I wish I could make society conform to MY expecations and make ME happy and entertain ME. <-- this is what I'm hearing from you, but the reality is there are other free actors and agents in this universe and they are going about pursuing their self-interest. Your self-interestedness is to play a game without perceiving that the cheating is going on, which IMO is absurd and impossible in scope. I would encourage you to find enjoyment in your game via its content and not worry about what everyone else is doing, because you're not going to control that anyway.
Using your example, Ultima Online wasn't actually worth playing. It failed as a game because you decided it wasn't worth your time to actually play the game.
What was the incentive for UO to improve? None. You kept paying for the game.
RMT removes an essential tool necessary to making good games: player feedback. People will walk through human excrement for money. It's not a stretch to think they'd play a video game if they thought they could make money at it. Someone who plays a game for money doesn't care if it's a good game, they only care about the money they made. Someone who buys their way into a 'win' state (for instance, a max level character account) doesn't care if a game is good or not, and they can't offer any feedback on a game's quality because they didn't play the game. They only care about the 'win' state.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
RMT is cheating in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.
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RMT is acceptable in several MMOs, as decided by those who have developed and maintain said MMOs.
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Why is it so hard for people who want RMT to just play one of the MMOs that allows it, and leave the ones that disallow RMT to the gamers who don't like RMT in their games?
The only person being selfish in their views is yourself, because you want to play by your own rules, and not those that are decided by the people who developed and run the game and which most players abide by.
I have no problem with RMT existing in an MMO, so long as it is intended and accepted that RMT is part of said game. I personally however, will not play such MMOs and will only play those that abide by the concept that RMT harms the spirit of gameplay, but I still respect that some people do prefer this type of game design. You however, disregard that many developers and players dislike RMT, and rules be damned because you want to be able to do what you want when you want, and no one should try stop you because in your perception 'it's inevitable' and 'it's not hurting anyone'.
By the logic you are using, abusing in-game exploits, bugs, and client hacks should all be fair game.