Meh.. I actually really liked raiding with 11 other people in DDO.. Certain puzzles required the full group to participate, there were multiple passageways where the raid needed to split up and assign different tasks, and it simply allowed the raid dungeons to be more complex in design. I still think 5 is too small a number.
His big point, role dilution, has always been my main justfiication for my preference for 10 man raids over larger raids. WoW's first 10 man raid, Karazhan, was fantastic. It was well balanced and appropriately difficult. More importantly, everyone's performance mattered so much more. If anyone was slacking off, the rest of the raid knew it. In the former 40 man raids and the new 25 man raids, 3 people could afk half a boss fight and the others might not even notice.
Once Zul'Aman was released, my attitude towards 10 man raids was confirmed. During that expansion, I was part of a guild who had numerous server firsts. Myself and most others in the guild had 5/5 tier 6 for every spec. We were way overgeared. Enter ZA timed runs. You absolutely had to use only 2 healers for the first 4 bosses if you wanted to complete it in time. It was the most intense healing experience in my life, FAR more difficult and engaging than anything I had ever done in 40 or 25 mans. And it felt extremely rewarding as a result. Everyone one of us knew exactly how well we performed, and we each appreciated each other more for it.
Basically, I totally agree with this video's point to that end. I do not like how diluted your role can become in super large raids. I do however enjoy a distinction between smaller normal dungeons and larger raid content. 10 just feels like the magic number based upon my experiences. So I will lament the loss of groups greater than just 5. But who knows? Maybe 5 will feel right for GW2 without the trinity.
Same here, I enjoyed the 10-man content in Rift much more than the 20-man, not only because it's always easier to get 10 people together but because everyone matters. The larger the group, the less important each individual becomes. Sure that can be fine and dandy but a bit of casual fun but when it comes to difficult content, I hate feeling as though I'm being carried. Which is why I mostly played a Tank or Healer (DPS is just for the lazy).
So I'm glad that the most challenging PvE and PvP content, in Guild Wars 2, will be for the groups of 5 and the massive groups will have content that's pure fun, as it should be.
raids are used to keep the players in game paying subs in a cheesy way, Tier based gear cycles.. Guild Wars 2 does not need such boring stuff. And also raid system make it harder to start a game harder from a time after its launch. As you have to grind to last level, find a guild, find a spot, grind guild gear points to be able to claim your items if it drops on the night you play. This is really boring imo, and more like a job than a game. Anet wants the game to be adaptable to any new players independant from the launch date. They also made it clear about the pvp part of it as well (by removing the hard to participate gvg). People always have questions about the end game content as most of the games only focused on the end-game and the rest maxlevel-1 levels seems like a boring filler. Guild wars 2 also intends to make the every level of the playthrough a good experience. Which is very important in my opinion, i hate rushing to the max level, just to be able to play the cool parts.
I have complete faith in Arenanet being able to provide decent large group content without the addition of raids. As well as provide good boss encounter mechanics, who says a dungeon or world boss can't have the mechanics of a raid type boss? Take a look at the dragon type encounter video thats floating about and you can clearly see that use of the nearby cannons and defensive barriers are critical.They were able to pull it off in GW1 using the missions or the complex skill system so I don't see why they won't in GW2.
Seems like people are hearing this news and get the impression that it means there will be less to do in the game or that there won't be content as difficult as raids. From what we've seen so far there 'should' (if they pull it all off) be plenty of things to do other than raid, and better things at that, with just as much skill and players required to pull them off.
I was happy when I found out GW2 doesn't plan on having raids. I never really cared for them anyway.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
i'm stoked for GW2 but on the other hand i love large scale raiding. there's just something about killing a boss with crazy mechanics with a large group of people. fights where people get carried is a whole different story all together, but pushing progression content in harder games is what makes me wake up in the morning. you either down a boss with the large group or a couple fails are holding you back and you don't get the win. for me the more players makes for a bigger emotional high when the boss drops. this is just me though.
That's what the events are for. Large groups, larger than most MMOs in fact, getting together to kick a giant boss' ass with crazy mechanics and a giant chest that appears for everyone to loot afterwards.
It's really all there, the only difference is you're not entering an instance to do it, which is precisely what MMOers these days have been complaining about so often. Not saying you have, I'm just saying in general.
Except that public dynamic events by their very nature will in no way be up to the difficulty standard of typical MMO raiding. They're designed for uncoordinated large groups of random people coming together to complete. Anet has specifically said the 5 man dungeons are there for players who want a challenge, not the DEs. The person you're trying to refute wants the large scale and the difficulty wrapped in one.
The problem with your argument is that difficulty is subjective. There are very few of those larger raids that I ever found difficult, even in games like Aion (before all the mob nerfs) where Bosses were typically one-shotting anyone that wasn't in plate armor. Inevitably people end up with better gear, and that gear carries the rest of the team, until a raid that once seemed difficult is not only easy, it's boring. This is the way it is with all raids, in all MMOs; it's new, people have a hard time, then they learn the strategy, they get the gear, and suddenly it's boring and they're waiting for the next one.
That's why I disregarded the part about difficulty. I spoke specifically about the actual content of the gameplay, which is where the similarities are. As for the difficulty of GW2 DE's, I don't believe you yet have the ability to speak on that. You're making an assumption that, since the DE's are open for all to participate it, there is no effort required. That's not grounded in fact, those DE's could indeed prove to be very challenging. In fact, the various videos showing all the people in downed state just proves it requires the cooperation people would come to expect from a typical raid. I'm not saying they'll all be difficult, or that they'll be difficult forever, but that again goes back to the argument I started this post with.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
The most pertinent point I see to 5 person dungeons is all down to Anet's take on the trinity, instead of having masses of people all assigned a specific role we'll have five people all expected to take on different roles throughout the dungeon. If you read or watch videos about peoples experience during Anet's open day it becomes very clear that no one can rest on their laurels and keep playing the same role throughout an encounter, it will simply fail. Dungeons are deigned so that the five players have to keep switching roles and be aware of what roles their team mates are playing, add more players and that starts to become more and more difficult and would be impossible with twenty. Anet have obviously decided five is optimal and built their encounters around that. Raiders will need to learn to play completely differently for GW2 dungeons, you can't be the main tank or main healer, you'll be expected to know your profession and be able to change roles when needed.
People are complaining about no raids, but the whole concept of raiding is about getting gear (and world firsts/bragging rights for the truly desperate)... The gear is meant to platue in GW2, so as to remove the whole gear grind nature of most other MMO's.
There are plenty of other ways to stroke your e-peen in GW2 that doesnt require 30 other people to carry you through the content.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Just wanted to add that I love this guy's videos, and I think he does a great job defining and making an argument. Very logical, very intellectual. Thanks for pointing me in the direction of his youtube channel.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Intersting point on role dillution and actually rings true to me. I like raiding for the complexity of fights as dungeons were usually ohhhh less that steller in complexity.
I have my doubts on games that don't have raids to have meaningful PvE content but am hoping ANet proves me wrong.
Hopefully they can provide dungeons that don't grow boring after a couple of runs and consistently put in new dungeons to keep the PvEers attentiong grasped. Between DEs, Dungeons, and the Exploration aspect of the game I'm sure there is plenty to keep one intrested if PvP doesn't float one's boat.
i'm stoked for GW2 but on the other hand i love large scale raiding. there's just something about killing a boss with crazy mechanics with a large group of people. fights where people get carried is a whole different story all together, but pushing progression content in harder games is what makes me wake up in the morning. you either down a boss with the large group or a couple fails are holding you back and you don't get the win. for me the more players makes for a bigger emotional high when the boss drops. this is just me though.
That's what the events are for. Large groups, larger than most MMOs in fact, getting together to kick a giant boss' ass with crazy mechanics and a giant chest that appears for everyone to loot afterwards.
It's really all there, the only difference is you're not entering an instance to do it, which is precisely what MMOers these days have been complaining about so often. Not saying you have, I'm just saying in general.
Except that public dynamic events by their very nature will in no way be up to the difficulty standard of typical MMO raiding. They're designed for uncoordinated large groups of random people coming together to complete. Anet has specifically said the 5 man dungeons are there for players who want a challenge, not the DEs. The person you're trying to refute wants the large scale and the difficulty wrapped in one.
The problem with your argument is that difficulty is subjective. There are very few of those larger raids that I ever found difficult, even in games like Aion (before all the mob nerfs) where Bosses were typically one-shotting anyone that wasn't in plate armor. Inevitably people end up with better gear, and that gear carries the rest of the team, until a raid that once seemed difficult is not only easy, it's boring. This is the way it is with all raids, in all MMOs; it's new, people have a hard time, then they learn the strategy, they get the gear, and suddenly it's boring and they're waiting for the next one.
That's why I disregarded the part about difficulty. I spoke specifically about the actual content of the gameplay, which is where the similarities are. As for the difficulty of GW2 DE's, I don't believe you yet have the ability to speak on that. You're making an assumption that, since the DE's are open for all to participate it, there is no effort required. That's not grounded in fact, those DE's could indeed prove to be very challenging. In fact, the various videos showing all the people in downed state just proves it requires the cooperation people would come to expect from a typical raid. I'm not saying they'll all be difficult, or that they'll be difficult forever, but that again goes back to the argument I started this post with.
Difficulty level is definitely not subjective. Players' experiences of various difficulty levels may be subjective (Ie. one player finds battle difficulty A to be harder to complete than another player), but a difficulty setting is objective and calcluated relative to other parts of the game, other games, etc. To that extent, while I certainly do not know how difficult each aspect of the game will feel to me, Anet has said themselves that the difficulty level of dynamic events, even the ones featuring the big baddies, will be much less relative to the 5 man dungeons. 5 mans are intended to be their "difficult" content.
If I wasn't at work, I could provide links to a few videos and interviews that I have bookmarked.
Although, GW2 has thing similar to raid. Its simply open to everyone to participate (and leave) as they see fit.
That's not similar to a raid at all then. In traditional MMO raids, which some companies insist on bringing back time and time again, NOT everyone is allowed to participate - be it because their gear score is too low or they're not the right spec, nor can they leave as they see fit without hearing about it later. Any game which relies on "raid" content for endgame these days is the product of lazy design.
i'm stoked for GW2 but on the other hand i love large scale raiding. there's just something about killing a boss with crazy mechanics with a large group of people. fights where people get carried is a whole different story all together, but pushing progression content in harder games is what makes me wake up in the morning. you either down a boss with the large group or a couple fails are holding you back and you don't get the win. for me the more players makes for a bigger emotional high when the boss drops. this is just me though.
That's what the events are for. Large groups, larger than most MMOs in fact, getting together to kick a giant boss' ass with crazy mechanics and a giant chest that appears for everyone to loot afterwards.
It's really all there, the only difference is you're not entering an instance to do it, which is precisely what MMOers these days have been complaining about so often. Not saying you have, I'm just saying in general.
Except that public dynamic events by their very nature will in no way be up to the difficulty standard of typical MMO raiding. They're designed for uncoordinated large groups of random people coming together to complete. Anet has specifically said the 5 man dungeons are there for players who want a challenge, not the DEs. The person you're trying to refute wants the large scale and the difficulty wrapped in one.
The problem with your argument is that difficulty is subjective. There are very few of those larger raids that I ever found difficult, even in games like Aion (before all the mob nerfs) where Bosses were typically one-shotting anyone that wasn't in plate armor. Inevitably people end up with better gear, and that gear carries the rest of the team, until a raid that once seemed difficult is not only easy, it's boring. This is the way it is with all raids, in all MMOs; it's new, people have a hard time, then they learn the strategy, they get the gear, and suddenly it's boring and they're waiting for the next one.
That's why I disregarded the part about difficulty. I spoke specifically about the actual content of the gameplay, which is where the similarities are. As for the difficulty of GW2 DE's, I don't believe you yet have the ability to speak on that. You're making an assumption that, since the DE's are open for all to participate it, there is no effort required. That's not grounded in fact, those DE's could indeed prove to be very challenging. In fact, the various videos showing all the people in downed state just proves it requires the cooperation people would come to expect from a typical raid. I'm not saying they'll all be difficult, or that they'll be difficult forever, but that again goes back to the argument I started this post with.
Difficulty level is definitely not subjective. Players' experiences of various difficulty levels may be subjective (Ie. one player finds battle difficulty A to be harder to complete than another player), but a difficulty setting is objective and calcluated relative to other parts of the game, other games, etc. To that extent, while I certainly do not know how difficult each aspect of the game will feel to me, Anet has said themselves that the difficulty level of dynamic events, even the ones featuring the big baddies, will be much less relative to the 5 man dungeons. 5 mans are intended to be their "difficult" content.
If I wasn't at work, I could provide links to a few videos and interviews that I have bookmarked.
You don't have to, I know what you are talking about. The GW2 dungeons are supposed to be comparable to GW1's, which were notoriously difficult and even today prove a challenge unless you go with the full hero team of damn near invulnerable sab/spiritway build (and even then, a bad pull = dead). My point is that doesn't mean no other part of GW1 was challenging, and likewise that in GW2 the dungeons are supposed to be particularly difficult doesn't mean the content out of them will be particularly easy, which is the assumption you're making.
I've played enough GW1 to know what to expect from the dungeons in GW2, trust me :P I've commented before on how I nearly lost a monitor to the final dungeon in GWEN when it first came out, due to my uh...frustration. I'm sure the content outside of the dungeons in GW2 will be comparatively easier, but that doesn't mean it won't take teamwork and provide enough of a challenge to give that poster, and others like him, exactly what they are looking for.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I understand why there is not going to be the itemization that WoW has, but...
This doesn't sound good for people that want there to be hundreds of people fighting a huge dragon just for fun and cool looking items or for people that want the 10 to 40 person raids from WoW just to have that kinda content.
As someone who dislikes WoW type raiding I will not miss it but I don't want to take that content away from MMORPGs just because I didn't like it just like how my favorite skilless hundreds of players all fighting a dragon from Dark Age of Camelot pretty much got taken out of MMORPGs after 2001.
I guess each game has its own purpose but I find it not fair that RIFT, SWTOR, WoW, WAR all used the same old raid and itemization formula for their endgame PvE and my preferred form of raiding was only in one game and even got turned into WoW raiding formula when the ToA expansion arrived... Sigh. ;(
Guild Wars 2 definitely sounds like it will be my next MMORPG at this point though.
I enjoyed Guild Wars 1. The only things I did not like was I could not ever play in the Heroes Ascent (I think that's what it was called...) PvP because it was all organized pvp. I hope the world vs world in Guild Wars 2 will allow people to solo or travel in groups of 2 to allow all different kinds of pvp players and use any class (also called allowing all different types of people be able to play together).
You don't have to, I know what you are talking about. The GW2 dungeons are supposed to be comparable to GW1's, which were notoriously difficult and even today prove a challenge unless you go with the full hero team of damn near invulnerable sab/spiritway build (and even then, a bad pull = dead). My point is that doesn't mean no other part of GW1 was challenging, and likewise that in GW2 the dungeons are supposed to be particularly difficult doesn't mean the content out of them will be particularly easy, which is the assumption you're making.
I've played enough GW1 to know what to expect from the dungeons in GW2, trust me :P I've commented before on how I nearly lost a monitor to the final dungeon in GWEN when it first came out, due to my uh...frustration. I'm sure the content outside of the dungeons in GW2 will be comparatively easier, but that doesn't mean it won't take teamwork and provide enough of a challenge to give that poster, and others like him, exactly what they are looking for.
Agreed, there are other parts of GW that is still pretty hard, a hard mode run in Drok is a lot tougher than any zone in a regular MMO today. On the other hand is it possible that ANET made things easier after Strain quit, GW1 sure lowered the difficulty after that.
I am not worried that GW2 will be too easy at least not compared to most MMOs out there. I worry more that people will complain so much about the difficulty that they lower it instead.
It might not be as hard as the tougher things in the MMOs of the 90s but unless things have changed a lot there will still be parts that is challenging enough. On the other hand are most of those areas optional in GW1 so there just might be places few casuals will venture into.
Well from my understanding of the information presented by A-netit is true they don't exactly have raids. However the Dynamic events at the higher levels it would appear are closer to what the original open world raids of everquest were. Supposedly the final boss of the PvE potion of GW2 at launch is a huge elemental type of dragon and while no real details have been released on that boss the event to take down his second in command scales up to 100 players ie to take down the penultimate bosses you can bring 99 other people and still expect a relativly challenging experiance.
Dunno about the rest of you but to my mind that sounds a heck of alot better than just running one particular dungeon once or twice a week for several months with a bunch of people who you suspect are not really into the whole experiance but are just there for the shiney which is what most raid content devolves into in my experiance.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
Well from my understanding of the information presented by A-netit is true they don't exactly have raids. However the Dynamic events at the higher levels it would appear are closer to what the original open world raids of everquest were. Supposedly the final boss of the PvE potion of GW2 at launch is a huge elemental type of dragon and while no real details have been released on that boss the event to take down his second in command scales up to 100 players ie to take down the penultimate bosses you can bring 99 other people and still expect a relativly challenging experiance.
Dunno about the rest of you but to my mind that sounds a heck of alot better than just running one particular dungeon once or twice a week for several months with a bunch of people who you suspect are not really into the whole experiance but are just there for the shiney which is what most raid content devolves into in my experiance.
Well, the big difference here is that GW2s dynamic bosses scale.
The real difference is otherwise that GW2 don't have any specific raid gear. Each dungeon do have it's gear set but the sets are balanced so they arent unbalancing the PvP and PvE. In games like EQ and Wow raid gear is by far superior to regular gear.
This doesn't sound good for people that want there to be hundreds of people fighting a huge dragon just for fun and cool looking items
Actually, elite dynamic events, or the entire continent of Orr would be exactly what those people ought to be looking forward to.
The only thing that they can't have is specific, exclusive group sizes larger than 5. That's it. You want a hundred people doing an epic dragon battle? You got it (you just can't keep people out).
And instead of thinking "oh, great, these plebes are going to screw up our elite event," instead try to recognize that a) if they're actually terrible at it, their contribution level probably won't make the event scale up, and b) if they ARE somewhat competent, you just got an additional challenge! Now try and see if you and your whole guild can get that gold contribution level despite the additional pubbies, and you have yourself that measuring stick you wanted.
After his video on Guild Wars 2's lack of a Dedicated Healer and it's lack of a Subscription fee. Youtube user WoodenPotatoes has made yet another enlightening video, on the game's lack of Raids.
LOLOL this guy hits many nails on the head. I totally watched all 3 of these videos and found his points well thought out. In the Raid specific video he goes into detail about how DPS in a raid is the least stressful and least contributory to the success of the raid (compared to the tank or healer as explained in the dedicated healer vid) yet still recieves the same rewards. Which always ended up leading me towards a DPS role because I do not find enjoyment in people being mean to the tanks or healers whenever a wipe occurs. It was very rare for a DPS to be blamed for any raid group shortcomings aside from pulling something when others were not ready. Also DPS is the easiest role to replace because that's all anyone wants to do anyways. Hense why WoW's dungeon and raid finders give bonus rewards to anyone who Q's as a tank or healer LOLOL
DPS is the easiest role to replace because that's all anyone wants to do anyways. Hense why WoW's dungeon and raid finders give bonus rewards to anyone who Q's as a tank or healer LOLOL
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Comments
Meh.. I actually really liked raiding with 11 other people in DDO.. Certain puzzles required the full group to participate, there were multiple passageways where the raid needed to split up and assign different tasks, and it simply allowed the raid dungeons to be more complex in design. I still think 5 is too small a number.
Same here, I enjoyed the 10-man content in Rift much more than the 20-man, not only because it's always easier to get 10 people together but because everyone matters. The larger the group, the less important each individual becomes. Sure that can be fine and dandy but a bit of casual fun but when it comes to difficult content, I hate feeling as though I'm being carried. Which is why I mostly played a Tank or Healer (DPS is just for the lazy).
So I'm glad that the most challenging PvE and PvP content, in Guild Wars 2, will be for the groups of 5 and the massive groups will have content that's pure fun, as it should be.
raids are used to keep the players in game paying subs in a cheesy way, Tier based gear cycles.. Guild Wars 2 does not need such boring stuff. And also raid system make it harder to start a game harder from a time after its launch. As you have to grind to last level, find a guild, find a spot, grind guild gear points to be able to claim your items if it drops on the night you play. This is really boring imo, and more like a job than a game. Anet wants the game to be adaptable to any new players independant from the launch date. They also made it clear about the pvp part of it as well (by removing the hard to participate gvg). People always have questions about the end game content as most of the games only focused on the end-game and the rest maxlevel-1 levels seems like a boring filler. Guild wars 2 also intends to make the every level of the playthrough a good experience. Which is very important in my opinion, i hate rushing to the max level, just to be able to play the cool parts.
I have complete faith in Arenanet being able to provide decent large group content without the addition of raids. As well as provide good boss encounter mechanics, who says a dungeon or world boss can't have the mechanics of a raid type boss? Take a look at the dragon type encounter video thats floating about and you can clearly see that use of the nearby cannons and defensive barriers are critical.They were able to pull it off in GW1 using the missions or the complex skill system so I don't see why they won't in GW2.
Seems like people are hearing this news and get the impression that it means there will be less to do in the game or that there won't be content as difficult as raids. From what we've seen so far there 'should' (if they pull it all off) be plenty of things to do other than raid, and better things at that, with just as much skill and players required to pull them off.
I was happy when I found out GW2 doesn't plan on having raids. I never really cared for them anyway.
I agree with Butregenyo and aovannor.
Also video from the OP is not about hating the fact that there's no classic raiding, it actually tells us why it is a good choice.
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The problem with your argument is that difficulty is subjective. There are very few of those larger raids that I ever found difficult, even in games like Aion (before all the mob nerfs) where Bosses were typically one-shotting anyone that wasn't in plate armor. Inevitably people end up with better gear, and that gear carries the rest of the team, until a raid that once seemed difficult is not only easy, it's boring. This is the way it is with all raids, in all MMOs; it's new, people have a hard time, then they learn the strategy, they get the gear, and suddenly it's boring and they're waiting for the next one.
That's why I disregarded the part about difficulty. I spoke specifically about the actual content of the gameplay, which is where the similarities are. As for the difficulty of GW2 DE's, I don't believe you yet have the ability to speak on that. You're making an assumption that, since the DE's are open for all to participate it, there is no effort required. That's not grounded in fact, those DE's could indeed prove to be very challenging. In fact, the various videos showing all the people in downed state just proves it requires the cooperation people would come to expect from a typical raid. I'm not saying they'll all be difficult, or that they'll be difficult forever, but that again goes back to the argument I started this post with.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Hopefully they won't nerf the difficulties for these 5mans. Video looks amazing.
The most pertinent point I see to 5 person dungeons is all down to Anet's take on the trinity, instead of having masses of people all assigned a specific role we'll have five people all expected to take on different roles throughout the dungeon. If you read or watch videos about peoples experience during Anet's open day it becomes very clear that no one can rest on their laurels and keep playing the same role throughout an encounter, it will simply fail. Dungeons are deigned so that the five players have to keep switching roles and be aware of what roles their team mates are playing, add more players and that starts to become more and more difficult and would be impossible with twenty. Anet have obviously decided five is optimal and built their encounters around that. Raiders will need to learn to play completely differently for GW2 dungeons, you can't be the main tank or main healer, you'll be expected to know your profession and be able to change roles when needed.
Did you guys actually watch the video?
People are complaining about no raids, but the whole concept of raiding is about getting gear (and world firsts/bragging rights for the truly desperate)... The gear is meant to platue in GW2, so as to remove the whole gear grind nature of most other MMO's.
There are plenty of other ways to stroke your e-peen in GW2 that doesnt require 30 other people to carry you through the content.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
Unless you have lightsabers in your game, in which case its 4, leaving
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
no raids
= no raiders
= better community
imho
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
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Just wanted to add that I love this guy's videos, and I think he does a great job defining and making an argument. Very logical, very intellectual. Thanks for pointing me in the direction of his youtube channel.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Intersting point on role dillution and actually rings true to me. I like raiding for the complexity of fights as dungeons were usually ohhhh less that steller in complexity.
I have my doubts on games that don't have raids to have meaningful PvE content but am hoping ANet proves me wrong.
Hopefully they can provide dungeons that don't grow boring after a couple of runs and consistently put in new dungeons to keep the PvEers attentiong grasped. Between DEs, Dungeons, and the Exploration aspect of the game I'm sure there is plenty to keep one intrested if PvP doesn't float one's boat.
Difficulty level is definitely not subjective. Players' experiences of various difficulty levels may be subjective (Ie. one player finds battle difficulty A to be harder to complete than another player), but a difficulty setting is objective and calcluated relative to other parts of the game, other games, etc. To that extent, while I certainly do not know how difficult each aspect of the game will feel to me, Anet has said themselves that the difficulty level of dynamic events, even the ones featuring the big baddies, will be much less relative to the 5 man dungeons. 5 mans are intended to be their "difficult" content.
If I wasn't at work, I could provide links to a few videos and interviews that I have bookmarked.
Guild Wars 2 will be e-sporty like PvP game with meaningful PvE content but it is not your dungeon crawler / raider game.
For raids you need to go WoW / Rift / Tor imo.
That's not similar to a raid at all then. In traditional MMO raids, which some companies insist on bringing back time and time again, NOT everyone is allowed to participate - be it because their gear score is too low or they're not the right spec, nor can they leave as they see fit without hearing about it later. Any game which relies on "raid" content for endgame these days is the product of lazy design.
hahahahaa ok this is moronic but very fun
You don't have to, I know what you are talking about. The GW2 dungeons are supposed to be comparable to GW1's, which were notoriously difficult and even today prove a challenge unless you go with the full hero team of damn near invulnerable sab/spiritway build (and even then, a bad pull = dead). My point is that doesn't mean no other part of GW1 was challenging, and likewise that in GW2 the dungeons are supposed to be particularly difficult doesn't mean the content out of them will be particularly easy, which is the assumption you're making.
I've played enough GW1 to know what to expect from the dungeons in GW2, trust me :P I've commented before on how I nearly lost a monitor to the final dungeon in GWEN when it first came out, due to my uh...frustration. I'm sure the content outside of the dungeons in GW2 will be comparatively easier, but that doesn't mean it won't take teamwork and provide enough of a challenge to give that poster, and others like him, exactly what they are looking for.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I understand why there is not going to be the itemization that WoW has, but...
This doesn't sound good for people that want there to be hundreds of people fighting a huge dragon just for fun and cool looking items or for people that want the 10 to 40 person raids from WoW just to have that kinda content.
As someone who dislikes WoW type raiding I will not miss it but I don't want to take that content away from MMORPGs just because I didn't like it just like how my favorite skilless hundreds of players all fighting a dragon from Dark Age of Camelot pretty much got taken out of MMORPGs after 2001.
I guess each game has its own purpose but I find it not fair that RIFT, SWTOR, WoW, WAR all used the same old raid and itemization formula for their endgame PvE and my preferred form of raiding was only in one game and even got turned into WoW raiding formula when the ToA expansion arrived... Sigh. ;(
Guild Wars 2 definitely sounds like it will be my next MMORPG at this point though.
I enjoyed Guild Wars 1. The only things I did not like was I could not ever play in the Heroes Ascent (I think that's what it was called...) PvP because it was all organized pvp. I hope the world vs world in Guild Wars 2 will allow people to solo or travel in groups of 2 to allow all different kinds of pvp players and use any class (also called allowing all different types of people be able to play together).
Agreed, there are other parts of GW that is still pretty hard, a hard mode run in Drok is a lot tougher than any zone in a regular MMO today. On the other hand is it possible that ANET made things easier after Strain quit, GW1 sure lowered the difficulty after that.
I am not worried that GW2 will be too easy at least not compared to most MMOs out there. I worry more that people will complain so much about the difficulty that they lower it instead.
It might not be as hard as the tougher things in the MMOs of the 90s but unless things have changed a lot there will still be parts that is challenging enough. On the other hand are most of those areas optional in GW1 so there just might be places few casuals will venture into.
Well from my understanding of the information presented by A-netit is true they don't exactly have raids. However the Dynamic events at the higher levels it would appear are closer to what the original open world raids of everquest were. Supposedly the final boss of the PvE potion of GW2 at launch is a huge elemental type of dragon and while no real details have been released on that boss the event to take down his second in command scales up to 100 players ie to take down the penultimate bosses you can bring 99 other people and still expect a relativly challenging experiance.
Dunno about the rest of you but to my mind that sounds a heck of alot better than just running one particular dungeon once or twice a week for several months with a bunch of people who you suspect are not really into the whole experiance but are just there for the shiney which is what most raid content devolves into in my experiance.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
Well, the big difference here is that GW2s dynamic bosses scale.
The real difference is otherwise that GW2 don't have any specific raid gear. Each dungeon do have it's gear set but the sets are balanced so they arent unbalancing the PvP and PvE. In games like EQ and Wow raid gear is by far superior to regular gear.
Actually, elite dynamic events, or the entire continent of Orr would be exactly what those people ought to be looking forward to.
The only thing that they can't have is specific, exclusive group sizes larger than 5. That's it. You want a hundred people doing an epic dragon battle? You got it (you just can't keep people out).
And instead of thinking "oh, great, these plebes are going to screw up our elite event," instead try to recognize that a) if they're actually terrible at it, their contribution level probably won't make the event scale up, and b) if they ARE somewhat competent, you just got an additional challenge! Now try and see if you and your whole guild can get that gold contribution level despite the additional pubbies, and you have yourself that measuring stick you wanted.
LOLOL this guy hits many nails on the head. I totally watched all 3 of these videos and found his points well thought out. In the Raid specific video he goes into detail about how DPS in a raid is the least stressful and least contributory to the success of the raid (compared to the tank or healer as explained in the dedicated healer vid) yet still recieves the same rewards. Which always ended up leading me towards a DPS role because I do not find enjoyment in people being mean to the tanks or healers whenever a wipe occurs. It was very rare for a DPS to be blamed for any raid group shortcomings aside from pulling something when others were not ready. Also DPS is the easiest role to replace because that's all anyone wants to do anyways. Hense why WoW's dungeon and raid finders give bonus rewards to anyone who Q's as a tank or healer LOLOL
"Here's a bag of rare loot as incentive to keep our ailing, Trinity-based sham going, in return for getting yelled at profusely by house wives and their kids who think you suck."
^^^^ Personal experience.