Guild Wars 2 has so many handcrafted DE's, each with multiple or divergent stages in them, the effects of which can span days, weeks and perhaps even months, and because of the de-leveling (and sidekicking) a player could be doing DE's for months and not see the same event playing out, and iirc, some of those events have special/unique rewards including armor, weapons, trophies and whatever else.
That's a pretty solid PvE endgame in my opinion, and lets not forget that W-v-W has PvE elements in it, so even if youre not that into PvP you can still help people out in it by performing those PvE tasks.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
The original video brings up a lot of good reasons why there aren't raids
The increased time it takes to group up and find larger teams
Old content can be done more easily with 5 people
Less problems like DCs due to less people and increased communication between them
5 person PVE groups easily transition to structured PVP
Role dilution with more people
I kind of think they missed one. One of GW2's goals seems to be not forcing people into doing a certain thing (raiding) in order to get "the best gear". With GW2, it'll be somewhat easy to get max stat power in your gear, and you'll be able to do it from a variety of sources. I think they're actually trying to deemphasize "the carrot" in general, so the game becomes more about doing whatever it is you find fun with fun being the real reward.
If there were raids in the game, why would you subject yourself to the hassle of doing them (finding more people, having to schedule, more AFKs/DCs, more likely someone messes up) if there wasn't at least some kind of tangible reward?
To me, it seems like there's a philosophical question here. Even if the reward is just another vanity skin, doesn't that in essence become "the best gear?" (if not from a stats standpoint, then from an elitism or desireability standpoint)
And if it is the case, what's the difference between the gear obtained from raiding and the gear obtained from the hardest dungeon? In both cases it seems like it becomes a badge of honor to be able to wear gear that not everyone can obtain.
I don't know, I'm asking here.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
1. There are too many people to let everyone talk. You shut up an listen to the plan. Not saying you are not allowed to give input but its nothing like a group activity where you can speak up at any time.
1B. Otoh there is always some idiot that comes drunk and wont shut up.
2. You are expected to show up on time, then wait a half hour for late comers.
3. You are expected to stay for hours at a time and its bad form to leave in the middle. "Oh man, we need you bro. We are almost there!"
For me they are 2 big advantages in the ways GW2 do it:
Boss fight are now closer to the old school big scale pve fight, you'll have a lot more (or less) people and won't have to deal with the organization part that was a pain.
Interesting pve, some call it "competitive pve", is now for the 5 men team in dungeons, and might be easier to make, thus more interesting.
The only downside is that Guilds now loose their best and easiest guild event, so they'll have to find something else for their weekly gathering.
One more, I do not understand why the OP has not changed his title because it is quite misleading. There are raids in GW2. Would you mind defining what raid is to you?
Ditto. The intensity can be really fun. But there's just too many things interfering with it to bother. Was fun and absorbing for a while, though.
Same here. i enjoy the challenge that comes with raiding and the rewarding feeling you can get at the end of a really difficult encounter, but I absolutely hate the logistics of raiding.
I don't miss the Raiding per say. What I miss was having 2-3 Raids worth of people to take down a world boss just to say we did. Getting 20 people together to run a checklist of an instance is meh. Worth it once for the story. Maybe once or twice more for the gear. Once it begins to be something you have to run weekly, you've lost me. Some of the best times were doing stuff that people didn't expect (kiting some figures into major towns, huge raids on opposite factions of towns, etc). Instances feel.... instanced.
One more, I do not understand why the OP has not changed his title because it is quite misleading. There are raids in GW2. Would you mind defining what raid is to you?
Please read the very first post. It is a discussion on a video named that (that video DOES NOT bang Gw2 btw).
the devs have decided everyone should see everything they've done and everyone can take part. this is amazing and a real privilege and i hope they continue with this ethos because it's absolutely the one reason i'd have subbed at even 30 bucks a month for this game. it's inclusive, not exclusive.
they haven't done away with hard content, just exclusive content. their concept of dynamic epic bosses looks brilliant and much more exciting than an instanced dungeon. you never know who will show up for the fight at your side and you'll probably make more friends in game. and that's what this game seems all about - bringing gamers together in a positive way rather than in a suspicious and egotistical way.
One more, I do not understand why the OP has not changed his title because it is quite misleading. There are raids in GW2. Would you mind defining what raid is to you?
Because the vid he linked to is named so, you should really have watched the vid before starting to ask questions like this.
After his video on Guild Wars 2's lack of a Dedicated Healer and it's lack of a Subscription fee. Youtube user WoodenPotatoes has made yet another enlightening video, on the game's lack of Raids.
Can't be the only one who see this as a negative can I?
At the end of the day no raids= Less content to do imo.
These "raids" that is now a common term for instanced large group dungeon crawling has been converted into Dynamic Events, so your equation can't be correct.
I think it's safe to advertise that as a player, you will be "raiding" from Day 1.
One more, I do not understand why the OP has not changed his title because it is quite misleading. There are raids in GW2. Would you mind defining what raid is to you?
No, I won't change the title because it is exacttly the same title of the video. Also GW2 doesn't have raids. It has dynamic events and dungeons and if you were to tell a WoW, Rift or SW:TOR that GW2 has raids then that would be misleading them. Allowing more than a party's worth of players, to beat on a boss monster, just doesn't make it a raid. It's all about providing the kind of experience a traditional raider expects and the rewards that come with it. Personally I'm glad that GW2 won't be even trying to appease the "so-called" hardcore raiders anyway.
Can't be the only one who see this as a negative can I?
At the end of the day no raids= Less content to do imo.
At the end of the day? Which day, the one where you stayed up to a reasonable hour having fun in a game that doesn't have crazy-stupid restrictions, or the end of the day where you spent an ungodly amount of time trying to get everyone together and then to cooperate, and then to decide on loot rules, and then to make sure everyone knows the fights, and then to listen to everyone bitch and moan anyway, and then to roll a 1 on the gear you waited a week to try and get?
Help me out here.
No. Raids need to die. They are a disgusting example of game companies taking advantage of human beings' codependent behavior.
Can't be the only one who see this as a negative can I?
At the end of the day no raids= Less content to do imo.
Duh, unless they replace it with other stuff to do.
GW2 have PvE content for a lot more than 40 people at the same time. Taking away content is bad if you don't replace it with other content as ANET have done here.
I suspected this would appear as an issue for discussion after the long threads about the no rewarding gear from pvp or pve affairs of players during their playtime.
It makes sense since the devs choosed to have no gear rewards from pvp tournaments .Their next desicion would be no gear from raids as well. And with no gera rewards from raids who would bother to raid anwy.
It appears though they are going in a way which is risky cause one of the 2 things will happen.
1.Either the player community will embrace that and adventure (mindlesely?) in the wilds since there is no profit for that either ,and play ofc pvp tournaments and after a period of time will get bored from well just doing pvp tournaments aka wow arenas situation..
2.Or just do fast lvling jump str8 ahead to pvp tournaments get burned and bored even faster.
There is always ofc the laydown style enjoy the new areas u discover ,explore the so called random events that alter the world give desicions to the players and make it look like an adventure ,but dont forget .In order for that to happen,you know, the roleplay fewling u can get i mean, live the adventure requires alot of things, tools, continious improvement of the character also ,exploring the world of a game just to see it isnt enough by itself, the greatest thrill is when u explore caves ,mystic locations, tombs,ancient ruins in order to find great tresures and legendary items,shields weapons ect etc thats real deal for adventurers and here sadly its absent and in your most important activities in this game (pvp tournaments),u gonna wear exactly what everyone else wears.
Im very sceptical about Gw2 cause for a player what will be in the game to do? Sit on the road? Sure we ll pvp alot. Point is that in wow for example form the time i used to login i had some things to do. 2-3 hours arenas, couple bg's to get some better gear, some rl friends whisped me to go to x dungeon to help x friend, some guildies organizing a raid for agter that. I could join some fellows in the corner that were roleplaying meanwhile, and all these things i did in wow which is famous for boredom and repeating same things over and over.
Just pvp tournaments though sounds too shallow for an mmorpg thats been so much hyped and advertised and delaying so much. Really.
Can't be the only one who see this as a negative can I?
At the end of the day no raids= Less content to do imo.
Broaden your mind.
Raiding isn't all that constitutes "content".
Off topic, but you have touched upon a great point. It's kind of pathetic how last-gen outdated, antiquated MMOs have brainwashed the playerbase to immediately equate content with instanced raiding.
Anyway, if people want to go through the experience of being trained monkeys going through the predictable motions of raiding, they are free to do so in the multiple raid-or-gtfo $15/month MMOs out there.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
Can't be the only one who see this as a negative can I?
At the end of the day no raids= Less content to do imo.
Oh, but you have raids. Try to defeat the hard dynamic events and come back.
Nah, ANet replaced these "so-called" raids with a more difficult form of raiding... WvWVW. 100-man castle raids FTW
Lots of games have large scale PvP, DAoC, SWTOR has Illum and WoW has TB the latter both have multiple raids and such. I see no reason as to why Anet could not use them.
I suspected this would appear as an issue for discussion after the long threads about the no rewarding gear from pvp or pve affairs of players during their playtime.
It makes sense since the devs choosed to have no gear rewards from pvp tournaments .Their next desicion would be no gear from raids as well. And with no gera rewards from raids who would bother to raid anwy.
It appears though they are going in a way which is risky cause one of the 2 things will happen.
1.Either the player community will embrace that and adventure (mindlesely?) in the wilds since there is no profit for that either ,and play ofc pvp tournaments and after a period of time will get bored from well just doing pvp tournaments aka wow arenas situation..
2.Or just do fast lvling jump str8 ahead to pvp tournaments get burned and bored even faster.
There is always ofc the laydown style enjoy the new areas u discover ,explore the so called random events that alter the world give desicions to the players and make it look like an adventure ,but dont forget .In order for that to happen,you know, the roleplay fewling u can get i mean, live the adventure requires alot of things, tools, continious improvement of the character also ,exploring the world of a game just to see it isnt enough by itself, the greatest thrill is when u explore caves ,mystic locations, tombs,ancient ruins in order to find great tresures and legendary items,shields weapons ect etc thats real deal for adventurers and here sadly its absent and in your most important activities in this game (pvp tournaments),u gonna wear exactly what everyone else wears.
that's what i'm loving about pvp in this game. finally being able to really KNOW how much of my/your fighting ability is skill over gear.
and i like how the idea of much of the endgame rewards can be cosmetic. i mean, stats shouldn't mean anything at that stage. by then we should all be equal in stats because, well, it's endgame. anything you gain from there should be advancing you laterally, rather than providing unfair advantages over everyone else.
Comments
Magnatia's second point is a good one.
Guild Wars 2 has so many handcrafted DE's, each with multiple or divergent stages in them, the effects of which can span days, weeks and perhaps even months, and because of the de-leveling (and sidekicking) a player could be doing DE's for months and not see the same event playing out, and iirc, some of those events have special/unique rewards including armor, weapons, trophies and whatever else.
That's a pretty solid PvE endgame in my opinion, and lets not forget that W-v-W has PvE elements in it, so even if youre not that into PvP you can still help people out in it by performing those PvE tasks.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
The original video brings up a lot of good reasons why there aren't raids
The increased time it takes to group up and find larger teams
Old content can be done more easily with 5 people
Less problems like DCs due to less people and increased communication between them
5 person PVE groups easily transition to structured PVP
Role dilution with more people
I kind of think they missed one. One of GW2's goals seems to be not forcing people into doing a certain thing (raiding) in order to get "the best gear". With GW2, it'll be somewhat easy to get max stat power in your gear, and you'll be able to do it from a variety of sources. I think they're actually trying to deemphasize "the carrot" in general, so the game becomes more about doing whatever it is you find fun with fun being the real reward.
If there were raids in the game, why would you subject yourself to the hassle of doing them (finding more people, having to schedule, more AFKs/DCs, more likely someone messes up) if there wasn't at least some kind of tangible reward?
To me, it seems like there's a philosophical question here. Even if the reward is just another vanity skin, doesn't that in essence become "the best gear?" (if not from a stats standpoint, then from an elitism or desireability standpoint)
And if it is the case, what's the difference between the gear obtained from raiding and the gear obtained from the hardest dungeon? In both cases it seems like it becomes a badge of honor to be able to wear gear that not everyone can obtain.
I don't know, I'm asking here.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
My problem with traditional raids is:
1. There are too many people to let everyone talk. You shut up an listen to the plan. Not saying you are not allowed to give input but its nothing like a group activity where you can speak up at any time.
1B. Otoh there is always some idiot that comes drunk and wont shut up.
2. You are expected to show up on time, then wait a half hour for late comers.
3. You are expected to stay for hours at a time and its bad form to leave in the middle. "Oh man, we need you bro. We are almost there!"
I like raiding but I hate it at the same time.
Ditto. The intensity can be really fun. But there's just too many things interfering with it to bother. Was fun and absorbing for a while, though.
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
For me they are 2 big advantages in the ways GW2 do it:
Boss fight are now closer to the old school big scale pve fight, you'll have a lot more (or less) people and won't have to deal with the organization part that was a pain.
Interesting pve, some call it "competitive pve", is now for the 5 men team in dungeons, and might be easier to make, thus more interesting.
The only downside is that Guilds now loose their best and easiest guild event, so they'll have to find something else for their weekly gathering.
One more, I do not understand why the OP has not changed his title because it is quite misleading. There are raids in GW2. Would you mind defining what raid is to you?
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Same here. i enjoy the challenge that comes with raiding and the rewarding feeling you can get at the end of a really difficult encounter, but I absolutely hate the logistics of raiding.
I don't miss the Raiding per say. What I miss was having 2-3 Raids worth of people to take down a world boss just to say we did. Getting 20 people together to run a checklist of an instance is meh. Worth it once for the story. Maybe once or twice more for the gear. Once it begins to be something you have to run weekly, you've lost me. Some of the best times were doing stuff that people didn't expect (kiting some figures into major towns, huge raids on opposite factions of towns, etc). Instances feel.... instanced.
Please read the very first post. It is a discussion on a video named that (that video DOES NOT bang Gw2 btw).
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
i think it's the most awesome thing about gw2.
the devs have decided everyone should see everything they've done and everyone can take part. this is amazing and a real privilege and i hope they continue with this ethos because it's absolutely the one reason i'd have subbed at even 30 bucks a month for this game. it's inclusive, not exclusive.
they haven't done away with hard content, just exclusive content. their concept of dynamic epic bosses looks brilliant and much more exciting than an instanced dungeon. you never know who will show up for the fight at your side and you'll probably make more friends in game. and that's what this game seems all about - bringing gamers together in a positive way rather than in a suspicious and egotistical way.
thankyou, gw2. you're my only hope.
Can't be the only one who see this as a negative can I?
At the end of the day no raids= Less content to do imo.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Because the vid he linked to is named so, you should really have watched the vid before starting to ask questions like this.
good vid, that.
These "raids" that is now a common term for instanced large group dungeon crawling has been converted into Dynamic Events, so your equation can't be correct.
I think it's safe to advertise that as a player, you will be "raiding" from Day 1.
No, I won't change the title because it is exacttly the same title of the video. Also GW2 doesn't have raids. It has dynamic events and dungeons and if you were to tell a WoW, Rift or SW:TOR that GW2 has raids then that would be misleading them. Allowing more than a party's worth of players, to beat on a boss monster, just doesn't make it a raid. It's all about providing the kind of experience a traditional raider expects and the rewards that come with it. Personally I'm glad that GW2 won't be even trying to appease the "so-called" hardcore raiders anyway.
At the end of the day? Which day, the one where you stayed up to a reasonable hour having fun in a game that doesn't have crazy-stupid restrictions, or the end of the day where you spent an ungodly amount of time trying to get everyone together and then to cooperate, and then to decide on loot rules, and then to make sure everyone knows the fights, and then to listen to everyone bitch and moan anyway, and then to roll a 1 on the gear you waited a week to try and get?
Help me out here.
No. Raids need to die. They are a disgusting example of game companies taking advantage of human beings' codependent behavior.
Duh, unless they replace it with other stuff to do.
GW2 have PvE content for a lot more than 40 people at the same time. Taking away content is bad if you don't replace it with other content as ANET have done here.
Oh, but you have raids. Try to defeat the hard dynamic events and come back.
Nah, ANet replaced these "so-called" raids with a more difficult form of raiding... WvWVW. 100-man castle raids FTW
I suspected this would appear as an issue for discussion after the long threads about the no rewarding gear from pvp or pve affairs of players during their playtime.
It makes sense since the devs choosed to have no gear rewards from pvp tournaments .Their next desicion would be no gear from raids as well. And with no gera rewards from raids who would bother to raid anwy.
It appears though they are going in a way which is risky cause one of the 2 things will happen.
1.Either the player community will embrace that and adventure (mindlesely?) in the wilds since there is no profit for that either ,and play ofc pvp tournaments and after a period of time will get bored from well just doing pvp tournaments aka wow arenas situation..
2.Or just do fast lvling jump str8 ahead to pvp tournaments get burned and bored even faster.
There is always ofc the laydown style enjoy the new areas u discover ,explore the so called random events that alter the world give desicions to the players and make it look like an adventure ,but dont forget .In order for that to happen,you know, the roleplay fewling u can get i mean, live the adventure requires alot of things, tools, continious improvement of the character also ,exploring the world of a game just to see it isnt enough by itself, the greatest thrill is when u explore caves ,mystic locations, tombs,ancient ruins in order to find great tresures and legendary items,shields weapons ect etc thats real deal for adventurers and here sadly its absent and in your most important activities in this game (pvp tournaments),u gonna wear exactly what everyone else wears.
Im very sceptical about Gw2 cause for a player what will be in the game to do? Sit on the road? Sure we ll pvp alot. Point is that in wow for example form the time i used to login i had some things to do. 2-3 hours arenas, couple bg's to get some better gear, some rl friends whisped me to go to x dungeon to help x friend, some guildies organizing a raid for agter that. I could join some fellows in the corner that were roleplaying meanwhile, and all these things i did in wow which is famous for boredom and repeating same things over and over.
Just pvp tournaments though sounds too shallow for an mmorpg thats been so much hyped and advertised and delaying so much. Really.
Those arn't raids.
That would be like calling Heroics in WoW raids.
And you kind of missed my point. No raids=Less content.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Good riddance to raiding.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
Broaden your mind.
Raiding isn't all that constitutes "content".
Off topic, but you have touched upon a great point. It's kind of pathetic how last-gen outdated, antiquated MMOs have brainwashed the playerbase to immediately equate content with instanced raiding.
Anyway, if people want to go through the experience of being trained monkeys going through the predictable motions of raiding, they are free to do so in the multiple raid-or-gtfo $15/month MMOs out there.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
Lots of games have large scale PvP, DAoC, SWTOR has Illum and WoW has TB the latter both have multiple raids and such. I see no reason as to why Anet could not use them.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
that's what i'm loving about pvp in this game. finally being able to really KNOW how much of my/your fighting ability is skill over gear.
and i like how the idea of much of the endgame rewards can be cosmetic. i mean, stats shouldn't mean anything at that stage. by then we should all be equal in stats because, well, it's endgame. anything you gain from there should be advancing you laterally, rather than providing unfair advantages over everyone else.