im calling it right here: GW2 will actually be bigger than WoW.
I am calling it right here your `100% gonna be dead wrong.And I will go one better it will cater to the same small group that liked GW1 and will not even come close to WoW numbers
im calling it right here: GW2 will actually be bigger than WoW.
I am calling it right here your `100% gonna be dead wrong.And I will go one better it will cater to the same small group that liked GW1 and will not even come close to WoW numbers
I will concede that there are certain game designs that lend themselves very well to the "a la carte" F2P approach. For example...League of Legends. They are able to sell players all kinds of different heroes (that they want to buy) without completely imbalancing the game...it just gives your more options. This is great.
But there are also certain designs that do not lend themselves well to this. Like...Battlefield Heroes, of Battlefield Free to Play. These games rely on P2W crap like better weapons that give you a CLEAR advantage over other players. Instead of making the game better, the business model makes the game worse.
I think most MMORPGs fall into this category too. They are either "pay to win" or "pay to skip." They are either designed so that you will have a big disadvantage in PvP without paying, or so they are so grindy that you want to pay real money to skip playing the game...BAD.
There is also the "freemium" model where you unlock areas by paying for them. And this kind of sucks because it segments the world.
No...I would prefer an MMORPG to be in one package with maybe expansions and stuff down the road.
Well Battlefield Heroes could've been a well-done FPS instead with lateral playstyle purchases instead of vertical ones -- it could've been a League of Legends or a Team Fortress 2, but instead it was poorly-designed.
So bad design made Battlefield Heroes worse, not the F2P model (which is actually proven for competitive games by both TF2 and LoL.)
MMORPGs are exactly the same. Bad designed MMORPGs involve P2W. Well-designed F2P MMORPGs involve playstyle unlocks, lateral content unlocks, and vanity items.
Your preferences are sort of irrelevant to what each model is encouraging developers to do. One encourages them to hype players on the game before they've invested much (if any) time into playing it; the other only cashes in if players are having fun and want to buy more flavors of that fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I just want to point out that even WAR changed the way future games are designed in a significant manner (public quests anyone?). You don't have to be a mega success to do this. You just have to have a good idea.
I'm surprised more people have not drawn the comparison between public quests and dynamic events. I guess rifts invasions have a something in common also.
I think there where two main problems with these sorts of event (PQ's and Invasions) . Firstly as people moved on they just would not trigger (or have enough players around to deal with them). Secondly, after a while they became pretty samey, kill wave one of little guys, kill wave two of fewer lieutenants, finally kill a boss or some similar progression. I wonder how Anet will deal with the inherant issues with these events?
Exciting times (I think) with two AAA releases iminent from two companies that have demonstrated they can do 'out of the box', Funcom with AO & Anet with GW1.
Sadly it will likley be financial success that determines how influencial they will be. Having said that if what they produce is 'good' they should have fiscal success. The best we can do is support these companies that are prepared to try something dofferent (provding they have not produced crap).
I just wanted to point out that Arenanet had already started developement on the concept of Dynamic Events as part of a Guild Wars expansion, (which was shelved when they decided to instead develop Guild Wars 2), at least a year before the release of Warhammer Online. WAR Public Quests may have inspired Rift, or not, I guess we won't really know what impact it has had, but WAR was not the inspiration for GW2 Dynamic Events.
If the OP is talking about B2P then I don't think so, here is why :
GW2 first release will be short. Way shorter than people think. Two weeks in, will be buying the first expansion, soon after the next. Before you know it you will have $200 invested in the game, and be thinking how did that happen ?
They are making all expansions at the same time, that is one reason its taking so long.
You will say...But GW1 waited 6 mo or more to release expantions....This is not GW1 !!!
Nothing is free !!!!
Ummm.lol? That's silly and ridiculous. We'll all be lucky and happy if there is an expansion ready at the one year mark.
The game isn't free. You buy it for the box price. However, unlike other MMORPGs, where you buy the opportunity to then rent content, with GW2 when you buy it, you own it.
GW followed a yearly expansion cycle, though sometimes the gap was a ittle longer. I expect it will be the same with GW2. They will also be selling cosmetic armor and weapon skins, additional character slots, etc... as a source of revenue, but far shy of a full cash shop model seen in F2P titles.
A big source of ongoing revenue will be ongoing box sales. Even years after it's release, the outdated GW1 still sells boxes at a respectable clip. Buying GW2 will never require someone to factor in a subscription fee when trying to decide if it's worth the cost, nor does a consumer have to do the calculus of weighing subscription costs for a given month vs. other games they intend on buying and playing.
For P2P titles, although some former players may come back for an expansion, active subscribers are the primary audience for a boxed expansion. With a B2P game, everyone who has ever bought the game is the audience for an expansion, even those who only occassionally log in to play after the first few months.
To me, the concept behind DEs are amazing. Even if ArenaNet's implementation were to turn out to be a total failure, they're still a brilliant idea that someone else will inevitably try to do. The problem they've said though is that DEs are more work than quests. Just as you can have a game with awesome quests or you could have a game with poor quests, I think we'll see games try to pad their content with endless Kill X DEs without any care behind them.
Speaking of care, I think that's one area that I think GW2 is really going to shine. We see tons of blog posts and interviews talking about how they iterate things for weeks, then have the whole company play it, then iterate more. I don't know if every member of the company plays the game every single day, but it sure seems close to that. One lesson that I would love for other companies to take away is simply this whole new way of making games. I've betaed other games and it really seems like they get to that stage and things are just still fundamentally broken. Things will probably get fixed so they work, but at that stage will they then be examined to see how they play or fit within the zone they're in?
I do think we're already seeing other companies push out in their own directions, and it seems like 2012 might be a great year for seeing a lot of MMOs come out doing their own thing. I think what happens a few years down the road will depend just as much on how these other games do as it will on what GW2 does. If GW2 is the only hit, maybe we will see tons of GW2 clones and B2P might even catch on. If other games are hits as well, we can hope that companies will feel comfortable trying new things, but I'm a cynic and I think it's more likely that games will try to combine all the successful elements from 2012's hits into one game.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
LOL will it change the way all MMOs are devloped...nope. Will it give something for devs form other games to look at and think about when designing a game... Yep.
GW2 does not interest me much, but you cannot deny it brings some good stuff to the table.
gw2 will change nothing... just another 2-3 week grind then forget game.
Do you even know anything about Guild Wars 2?
I'm amazed that people think that Guild Wars 2 is going to be 'just another' anything.
You folks have no idea. Get ready to be blown away with an actual, original, game.
I think the good thing about the people who do spout nonsense, like how the game's just another Korean grindfest... Well those people will have a greater chance of being pleasantly surprised (if they actually play it), rather us fans who know everything about the game.
gw2 will change nothing... just another 2-3 week grind then forget game.
Do you even know anything about Guild Wars 2?
I'm amazed that people think that Guild Wars 2 is going to be 'just another' anything.
You folks have no idea. Get ready to be blown away with an actual, original, game.
I am sure it will be a good game. But you make it sound like the second coming. It will shine, I have no doubt, but in the end, it will be an MMORPG. There are only so many new concepts you *can* bring to the table with current technology. I suspect Dynamic Events (the thing I hear about most in GW2) will be awesome, but even the most awesome things wear off. I thought PQs in Warhammer were awesome too...in the beginning.
Time will tell, but I would be careful about overhyping a game...any game.
Personally I give it a 95% chance you make the same disappointed threads about GW2 that you've made about ToR.
GW2 will fail to utterly and completely innovate MMORPG into a brighter, unimaginably beautiful tomorrow. Because of this, some posters will consider it a complete attrocity against MMORPGs. Their complaints will feel justified when the game inevitably loses a ton of subs after launch (even though virtually every game ever experiences the same thing, and the game could go on to be a great success overall.)
Meanwhile most people will probably be having too much fun playing to bother commenting.
Except you completely just showed your ignorance of how GW2 will work. How is a game going to lose subs when you dont have to subscribe to the game in the first place?
Now overall I agree that there will be people who just hate GW2 and while I'm looking forward to it, I'm refusing to believe it will truly be diffrent till I see it for myself. But when you start already talking about a game that will drop a massive amount of subs, when its not a sub based game I just have to assume you are a troll and should not be taken seriously.
gw2 will change nothing... just another 2-3 week grind then forget game.
Do you even know anything about Guild Wars 2?
I'm amazed that people think that Guild Wars 2 is going to be 'just another' anything.
You folks have no idea. Get ready to be blown away with an actual, original, game.
I am sure it will be a good game. But you make it sound like the second coming. It will shine, I have no doubt, but in the end, it will be an MMORPG. There are only so many new concepts you *can* bring to the table with current technology. I suspect Dynamic Events (the thing I hear about most in GW2) will be awesome, but even the most awesome things wear off. I thought PQs in Warhammer were awesome too...in the beginning.
Time will tell, but I would be careful about overhyping a game...any game.
Sorry but I went through my post and I can't find the part where I over exagerrated GW2?
Will it not be Original? Will it be 'similar to' or 'just another' anything?
Fact of the matter is that there has not been an original AAA MMO released for many years. If people are thinking GW2 is going to be a grind in any way or is going to be 'same as x' then I stand by what I said, they are in for a shock.
gw2 will change nothing... just another 2-3 week grind then forget game.
Do you even know anything about Guild Wars 2?
I'm amazed that people think that Guild Wars 2 is going to be 'just another' anything.
You folks have no idea. Get ready to be blown away with an actual, original, game.
I am sure it will be a good game. But you make it sound like the second coming. It will shine, I have no doubt, but in the end, it will be an MMORPG. There are only so many new concepts you *can* bring to the table with current technology. I suspect Dynamic Events (the thing I hear about most in GW2) will be awesome, but even the most awesome things wear off. I thought PQs in Warhammer were awesome too...in the beginning.
Time will tell, but I would be careful about overhyping a game...any game.
Sorry but I went through my post and I can't find the part where I over exagerrated GW2?
Will it not be Original? Will it be 'similar to' or 'just another' anything?
Fact of the matter is that there has not been an original AAA MMO released for many years. If people are thinking GW2 is going to be a grind in any way or is going to be 'same as x' then I stand by what I said, they are in for a shock.
I guess I have to admit you were right, but my post was a reaction more to the general vibe of overhyping that has been going on, not so much your post specifically. Apologies.
gw2 will change nothing... just another 2-3 week grind then forget game.
Do you even know anything about Guild Wars 2?
I'm amazed that people think that Guild Wars 2 is going to be 'just another' anything.
You folks have no idea. Get ready to be blown away with an actual, original, game.
I am sure it will be a good game. But you make it sound like the second coming. It will shine, I have no doubt, but in the end, it will be an MMORPG. There are only so many new concepts you *can* bring to the table with current technology. I suspect Dynamic Events (the thing I hear about most in GW2) will be awesome, but even the most awesome things wear off. I thought PQs in Warhammer were awesome too...in the beginning.
Time will tell, but I would be careful about overhyping a game...any game.
Sorry but I went through my post and I can't find the part where I over exagerrated GW2?
Will it not be Original? Will it be 'similar to' or 'just another' anything?
Fact of the matter is that there has not been an original AAA MMO released for many years. If people are thinking GW2 is going to be a grind in any way or is going to be 'same as x' then I stand by what I said, they are in for a shock.
I guess I have to admit you were right, but my post was a reaction more to the general vibe of overhyping that has been going on, not so much your post specifically. Apologies.
Depends on what you view as overhyping some people seem to equate "it's going to be awesome" to "omgwtflololsupermegaawesomeshootingrainbowsoutofmybutweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehomgomgomgwooooooooooooo"
Except you completely just showed your ignorance of how GW2 will work. How is a game going to lose subs when you dont have to subscribe to the game in the first place?
Now overall I agree that there will be people who just hate GW2 and while I'm looking forward to it, I'm refusing to believe it will truly be diffrent till I see it for myself. But when you start already talking about a game that will drop a massive amount of subs, when its not a sub based game I just have to assume you are a troll and should not be taken seriously.
I'll catch you up on the conversation as you didn't read:
The point is the population will drop, not subs.
GW2 will still be criticized exactly how I describe (probably by a disappointed OP)
As a B2P game, the hype train is how they make money -- so it's no surprise they've gone nuts getting people hyped on a game where 100% of the income is based on suckering people into a box sale, vs. where most of the income can potentially come after the box sale as long as the game is fun (vs. going entirely F2P where 100% of the income comes from making the game fun.)
It could certainly still be fun, but being B2P isn't helping my confidence of the hype.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm ready for GW2, it's the only game I want right now.
...but this does remind me a lot of Asheron's Call 2. AC2 was very innovative and all that for it's time.. but its problem was that it was drastically different from the original, which wasn't popular with it's main fanbase... so they went back to AC1.
AC2 is gone now.. because it was so different and people weren't ready for something like that, even though they claimed they were. I was one of them.
I hope the same sorta thing doesn't happen to GW2. If it does then it will enforce even more of the same old stuff.
You're not comparing apples to apples here, more like apples to used tires. AC2 didn't fail because it was so drastically different than AC1 (although the fanbase expectations were wildly skewed vs. what Turbine was telling them). It failed because the game was rushed out by Microsoft.
The original skill trees for all specs were tossed together by one man in about a month, and didn't have design notes because the time was so constrained by Microsoft. Without the design notes they couldn't Q&A the classes properly. After release, they had to go back and rewrite every single skill tree, so that they would actually work.
Microsoft's GUN servers used for chatting, which again was forced into the game, outright didn't work. They would fail and the world would be without the ability to chat for hours, and even days in some extreme cases.
The engine was mired with issues, one of them being that animations couldn't be interrupted once started, so even though you might have purged a stun with an ability, your animations were slowed down to the point of uselessness for the remainder of animation.
The first 20 levels had a neat, although linear, questing experience, and it just stopped, for the rest of the game. You were relegated to completing daily quests, mob grinding, and finding short duration incursion mobs which gave quests.
The point is this is absolutely nothing like the conversion between AC1 and AC2. We've seen that GW2 has a clear and defined vision of what the game will be, we have numerous gameplay videos that show us that the combat system works and that classes are playable (go watch some pvp videos). The world is built with a specific type of "questing" in mind via dynamic events, and don't forget your personal story.
As a B2P game, the hype train is how they make money -- so it's no surprise they've gone nuts getting people hyped on a game where 100% of the income is based on suckering people into a box sale, vs. where most of the income can potentially come after the box sale
GW2 is no different from P2P as they need to sell alot of xpacs to make good profit.
Dont sell lots of xpacs with just hype.
Just cause GW2 is B2P dusnt mean they dont have to deliver
GW2 is no different from P2P as they need to sell alot of xpacs to make good profit.
False. Most of their profit will come from the original game's box sales and the in game store. They'll probably release an expansion pack once every year or so.
GW2 is no different from P2P as they need to sell alot of xpacs to make good profit.
False. Most of their profit will come from the original game's box sales and the in game store. They'll probably release an expansion pack once every year or so.
So you say they make more profit of rewriting a game engine a new game system new classes etc then making an xpack on an excisting engine and system? ya right.. if that was the case you will never see an xpack but gw3 gw4 etc.....
If Anet is lucky they break even on boxsales alone.
Comments
I am calling it right here your `100% gonna be dead wrong.And I will go one better it will cater to the same small group that liked GW1 and will not even come close to WoW numbers
I am calling it right here your `100% gonna be dead wrong.And I will go one better it will cater to the same small group that liked GW1 and will not even come close to WoW numbers
Guild wars wasn't a MMO thoughPhilosophy of MMO Game Design
Well Battlefield Heroes could've been a well-done FPS instead with lateral playstyle purchases instead of vertical ones -- it could've been a League of Legends or a Team Fortress 2, but instead it was poorly-designed.
So bad design made Battlefield Heroes worse, not the F2P model (which is actually proven for competitive games by both TF2 and LoL.)
MMORPGs are exactly the same. Bad designed MMORPGs involve P2W. Well-designed F2P MMORPGs involve playstyle unlocks, lateral content unlocks, and vanity items.
Your preferences are sort of irrelevant to what each model is encouraging developers to do. One encourages them to hype players on the game before they've invested much (if any) time into playing it; the other only cashes in if players are having fun and want to buy more flavors of that fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
gw2 will change nothing... just another 2-3 week grind then forget game.
I just wanted to point out that Arenanet had already started developement on the concept of Dynamic Events as part of a Guild Wars expansion, (which was shelved when they decided to instead develop Guild Wars 2), at least a year before the release of Warhammer Online. WAR Public Quests may have inspired Rift, or not, I guess we won't really know what impact it has had, but WAR was not the inspiration for GW2 Dynamic Events.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Ummm.lol? That's silly and ridiculous. We'll all be lucky and happy if there is an expansion ready at the one year mark.
The game isn't free. You buy it for the box price. However, unlike other MMORPGs, where you buy the opportunity to then rent content, with GW2 when you buy it, you own it.
GW followed a yearly expansion cycle, though sometimes the gap was a ittle longer. I expect it will be the same with GW2. They will also be selling cosmetic armor and weapon skins, additional character slots, etc... as a source of revenue, but far shy of a full cash shop model seen in F2P titles.
A big source of ongoing revenue will be ongoing box sales. Even years after it's release, the outdated GW1 still sells boxes at a respectable clip. Buying GW2 will never require someone to factor in a subscription fee when trying to decide if it's worth the cost, nor does a consumer have to do the calculus of weighing subscription costs for a given month vs. other games they intend on buying and playing.
For P2P titles, although some former players may come back for an expansion, active subscribers are the primary audience for a boxed expansion. With a B2P game, everyone who has ever bought the game is the audience for an expansion, even those who only occassionally log in to play after the first few months.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
A couple of random thoughts.
To me, the concept behind DEs are amazing. Even if ArenaNet's implementation were to turn out to be a total failure, they're still a brilliant idea that someone else will inevitably try to do. The problem they've said though is that DEs are more work than quests. Just as you can have a game with awesome quests or you could have a game with poor quests, I think we'll see games try to pad their content with endless Kill X DEs without any care behind them.
Speaking of care, I think that's one area that I think GW2 is really going to shine. We see tons of blog posts and interviews talking about how they iterate things for weeks, then have the whole company play it, then iterate more. I don't know if every member of the company plays the game every single day, but it sure seems close to that. One lesson that I would love for other companies to take away is simply this whole new way of making games. I've betaed other games and it really seems like they get to that stage and things are just still fundamentally broken. Things will probably get fixed so they work, but at that stage will they then be examined to see how they play or fit within the zone they're in?
I do think we're already seeing other companies push out in their own directions, and it seems like 2012 might be a great year for seeing a lot of MMOs come out doing their own thing. I think what happens a few years down the road will depend just as much on how these other games do as it will on what GW2 does. If GW2 is the only hit, maybe we will see tons of GW2 clones and B2P might even catch on. If other games are hits as well, we can hope that companies will feel comfortable trying new things, but I'm a cynic and I think it's more likely that games will try to combine all the successful elements from 2012's hits into one game.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Active combat and DE's, maybe leveling curve as well, since more and more games go away from levels.
Do you even know anything about Guild Wars 2?
I'm amazed that people think that Guild Wars 2 is going to be 'just another' anything.
You folks have no idea. Get ready to be blown away with an actual, original, game.
LOL will it change the way all MMOs are devloped...nope. Will it give something for devs form other games to look at and think about when designing a game... Yep.
GW2 does not interest me much, but you cannot deny it brings some good stuff to the table.
I think the good thing about the people who do spout nonsense, like how the game's just another Korean grindfest... Well those people will have a greater chance of being pleasantly surprised (if they actually play it), rather us fans who know everything about the game.
I am sure it will be a good game. But you make it sound like the second coming. It will shine, I have no doubt, but in the end, it will be an MMORPG. There are only so many new concepts you *can* bring to the table with current technology. I suspect Dynamic Events (the thing I hear about most in GW2) will be awesome, but even the most awesome things wear off. I thought PQs in Warhammer were awesome too...in the beginning.
Time will tell, but I would be careful about overhyping a game...any game.
Except you completely just showed your ignorance of how GW2 will work. How is a game going to lose subs when you dont have to subscribe to the game in the first place?
Now overall I agree that there will be people who just hate GW2 and while I'm looking forward to it, I'm refusing to believe it will truly be diffrent till I see it for myself. But when you start already talking about a game that will drop a massive amount of subs, when its not a sub based game I just have to assume you are a troll and should not be taken seriously.
Sorry but I went through my post and I can't find the part where I over exagerrated GW2?
Will it not be Original? Will it be 'similar to' or 'just another' anything?
Fact of the matter is that there has not been an original AAA MMO released for many years. If people are thinking GW2 is going to be a grind in any way or is going to be 'same as x' then I stand by what I said, they are in for a shock.
I guess I have to admit you were right, but my post was a reaction more to the general vibe of overhyping that has been going on, not so much your post specifically. Apologies.
How to troll gw2:
Step 1: Open mmorpg.com and go in the GW2 tab
Step 2: Create a thread about wow slaying so it attracts a good number of allies to your cause
Step 3: Post how GW2 will lose half their "subs" in one month due to overhype (lol)
Step 4: ???
Step 5: profit
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
Depends on what you view as overhyping some people seem to equate "it's going to be awesome" to "omgwtflololsupermegaawesomeshootingrainbowsoutofmybutweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehomgomgomgwooooooooooooo"
Just because something is hyped up doesn't mean it's not warranted. GW2 is hyped up and deservedly so.
Wait a sec... I haven't been following as close.. is there going to be a cash shop?
I'll catch you up on the conversation as you didn't read:
The point is the population will drop, not subs.
GW2 will still be criticized exactly how I describe (probably by a disappointed OP)
As a B2P game, the hype train is how they make money -- so it's no surprise they've gone nuts getting people hyped on a game where 100% of the income is based on suckering people into a box sale, vs. where most of the income can potentially come after the box sale as long as the game is fun (vs. going entirely F2P where 100% of the income comes from making the game fun.)
It could certainly still be fun, but being B2P isn't helping my confidence of the hype.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You're not comparing apples to apples here, more like apples to used tires. AC2 didn't fail because it was so drastically different than AC1 (although the fanbase expectations were wildly skewed vs. what Turbine was telling them). It failed because the game was rushed out by Microsoft.
The original skill trees for all specs were tossed together by one man in about a month, and didn't have design notes because the time was so constrained by Microsoft. Without the design notes they couldn't Q&A the classes properly. After release, they had to go back and rewrite every single skill tree, so that they would actually work.
Microsoft's GUN servers used for chatting, which again was forced into the game, outright didn't work. They would fail and the world would be without the ability to chat for hours, and even days in some extreme cases.
The engine was mired with issues, one of them being that animations couldn't be interrupted once started, so even though you might have purged a stun with an ability, your animations were slowed down to the point of uselessness for the remainder of animation.
The first 20 levels had a neat, although linear, questing experience, and it just stopped, for the rest of the game. You were relegated to completing daily quests, mob grinding, and finding short duration incursion mobs which gave quests.
The point is this is absolutely nothing like the conversion between AC1 and AC2. We've seen that GW2 has a clear and defined vision of what the game will be, we have numerous gameplay videos that show us that the combat system works and that classes are playable (go watch some pvp videos). The world is built with a specific type of "questing" in mind via dynamic events, and don't forget your personal story.
GW2 is no different from P2P as they need to sell alot of xpacs to make good profit.
Dont sell lots of xpacs with just hype.
Just cause GW2 is B2P dusnt mean they dont have to deliver
False. Most of their profit will come from the original game's box sales and the in game store. They'll probably release an expansion pack once every year or so.
For cosmetic things, yes.
So you say they make more profit of rewriting a game engine a new game system new classes etc then making an xpack on an excisting engine and system? ya right.. if that was the case you will never see an xpack but gw3 gw4 etc.....
If Anet is lucky they break even on boxsales alone.