WvW is one of their main features, and it is laggy and choppy as hell. That can be a pretty big deterrent for wanting to play the game.
Well, lets tell the whole story here. It's still in closed beta with an unknown release date, at this time. There were SOME of the press that had lag issues, others stated they didn't notice it at all. And, last but not least, the videos WE have seen had fraps running in the background, which would certainly affect the performance. They've stated that they still have alot of optimizing to do, obviously if the game launches with a ton of lag in WvW, that would be very detrimental.
Reading the various posts in this thread can be very frustrating, to be honest. There are alot of half-truths and flat out incorrect responses in this thread. Now, play whatever game you want, it's your money...but honestly, if you don't even know what you're talking about and post anyway, you're setting yourself up to get flamed by 'fanbois'.
Including coming from you, with how you try to twist things into a positive light, when in reality the game just couldn't handle large scale fights in wvw. It was choppy and laggy like wintergrasp was in WoW.
No reason to get defensive, it wasn't a personal attack, you just didn't tell the whole story. Probably a reason for that. Again, see my response to you, it isn't even out of closed beta yet, though I suppose, you could just assume that it won't be improved upon...Not a very common sense approach, however.
FYI: Nothing I stated was incorrect. If you read the multiple articles I read, there were varying reviews on the amount of lag encountered. Just because you WANT it to be a certain way, doesn't make it so.
List of reasons someone might not want to play Guild Wars 2:
Not much in terms of max level character progression.
No world PVP.
No raids.
Tired of instancing.
Most of the content will likely not be very diffcult (I wouldn't expect dynamic events which by definition are meant to be done by PUGs forming out of thin air to pose any challenge).
Lack of sandbox features.
Fast leveling.
Tired of fantasy.
Know better than to fall for the hype.
Please. Do yourself a favor and play GW1[free trial is enough] to see how ArenaNet philosophy works
Don't let the small minority of jaded and angry gamers on this website paint a picture of what the community will be as a whole.
So because people offer a critique it makes them jaded and angry?
The thread was asking for reasons not to play and just because poeple give reasons doesn't even mean they won't be playing. I would say with a good chunk of people giving reasons which are based on incorrect information rather than opinion it could only bode well in the long run.
Think you got it wrong. I belive he was refering to the gw2 fans that go in different game threads to say how that game sucks and to "preach the comming of gw2", not about the people that give valid critique.
Firstly, Guild Wars 1 is complete and utter trash to me. I've tried to get into that game multiple times, and each time I get bored and quit after an hour or so. So that right there makes me cautious.
Secondly, all of the videos I've seen of GW2 combat make it look identical to pretty much every other MMO out there, except for the fact that you have to dodge a powerful attack occasionally. Wow, that's soooo groundbreaking and awesome... except for the fact that you have to do that in pretty much every MMO out there already. So that's a bust.
Thirdly, I like playing tanks and healers. Since there's no 'holy trinity' in this game... WTF am I supposed to do? Everyone plays a self-healing DPS then? We tank by jumping around the screen like a squirrel with ADD? Wow, that sounds like so much fun... no wait, it sounds idiotic.
And fourthly, I despise PvP and the community that usually springs up around those types of games, especially the ones that consider themselves 'E-sports' (a ridiculous concept in and of itself, IMO). Since the game doesn't have any form of raiding, what am I supposed to do after I hit the cap? Do 5-mans forever, or will there be the typical slew of daily quests to complete? Neither option really seems all that appealing.
I'll probably end up giving the game a shot, but I'm sure not hyped up for it. Hell, I think that idiot blogger on this site will probably end up whining about it about as much as they whined about SWTOR for not living up to the hype.
[mod edit]
Arenanet took away your holy trinity and suddently every class is the same? You saw the videos and it's identical to every other MMO out there apart from dodging? You were bored of Guild Wars 1 so that makes you cautious about Gw2?...
[mod edit]
Oh and you top it with attacking the reviewer who "whined" about SWTOR not delivering on it's promises... [mod edit]
Firstly, Guild Wars 1 is complete and utter trash to me. I've tried to get into that game multiple times, and each time I get bored and quit after an hour or so. So that right there makes me cautious.
Secondly, all of the videos I've seen of GW2 combat make it look identical to pretty much every other MMO out there, except for the fact that you have to dodge a powerful attack occasionally. Wow, that's soooo groundbreaking and awesome... except for the fact that you have to do that in pretty much every MMO out there already. So that's a bust.
[mod edit]
[mod edit]I highlighted the portion of your response that is lacking in facts. If you care enough, look into the combat system in GW2 in the multitude of videos and articles that have sprung up since the press beta. The combat is a fair amount different from most every other MMO. As far as your statement that you WANT the holy trinity, well yeah...this game probably isn't for you. The classes still have certain roles to play, but the combat won't be tied to tank/healer/dps nearly as much as recent MMOs.
At the end of the day, if this isn't your cup of tea, more power to you. But i'd suggest making an informed decision rather than the alternative.
Jesus, when did people start getting so sensitive around here? Doesn't take much to hurt someone's feelings, eh?
Some of you need a group hug or something?
Stop taking everything so personal, gheesh.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Firstly, Guild Wars 1 is complete and utter trash to me. I've tried to get into that game multiple times, and each time I get bored and quit after an hour or so. So that right there makes me cautious.
Secondly, all of the videos I've seen of GW2 combat make it look identical to pretty much every other MMO out there, except for the fact that you have to dodge a powerful attack occasionally. Wow, that's soooo groundbreaking and awesome... except for the fact that you have to do that in pretty much every MMO out there already. So that's a bust.
[mod edit]
[mod edit]
...I highlighted the portion of your response that is lacking in facts. If you care enough, look into the combat system in GW2 in the multitude of videos and articles that have sprung up since the press beta. The combat is a fair amount different from most every other MMO. As far as your statement that you WANT the holy trinity, well yeah...this game probably isn't for you. The classes still have certain roles to play, but the combat won't be tied to tank/healer/dps nearly as much as recent MMOs.
At the end of the day, if this isn't your cup of tea, more power to you. But i'd suggest making an informed decision rather than the alternative.
[mod edit]
I've watched a TON of videos of GW2 combat, and while I think it looks a little different, I just don't see how it's anything special. Yeah there's a little dodging and other movement based stuff, but it just doesn't look as incredibly unique as everyone is making it out to be. In fact, the lack of abilities is kind of a turn off, although having them be weapon-based does pique my interest a bit.
Also, I never said I really wanted the trinity, I just voiced the concern that some people (not just myself) actually LIKE playing a tank, healer, etc. I admit that some classes do look a little more 'tanky' than others, but since there's no dedicated roles, I was wondering what those players (including myself) are supposed to do, which is an issue that really hasn't been addressed yet AFAIK.
Perhaps my initial post came off as a bit too negative, but I'll blame the massive hangover I currently have for that, lol. But thank you for being rational and making a decent, polite response, unlike some people.
And again, I will probably try the game. God forbid I might even enjoy it!
2. Dumbed down PvE. Anyone tried running dungeon's with full DPS group in other games?
3. No Healer cllass = no PvP tactical combat.
4. Limited skill options.
5. Only two weeks for fight the other servers before rotation. No build a rep for real not some stupid status.
I agree with all of these, but I would also add three more:
6. No raids. I actually really like raiding. It is challenging and engaging if the content is actually difficult. I don't like it when games rely ENTIRELY on raiding for end game, but not having it at all kind of sucks.
7. No seamless world. This always bugs me in MMOs and it sounds like GW2 will be very segmented and highly instanced.
I've watched a TON of videos of GW2 combat, and while I think it looks a little different, I just don't see how it's anything special. Yeah there's a little dodging and other movement based stuff, but it just doesn't look as incredibly unique as everyone is making it out to be. In fact, the lack of abilities is kind of a turn off, although having them be weapon-based does pique my interest a bit.
Also, I never said I really wanted the trinity, I just voiced the concern that some people (not just myself) actually LIKE playing a tank, healer, etc. I admit that some classes do look a little more 'tanky' than others, but since there's no dedicated roles, I was wondering what those players (including myself) are supposed to do, which is an issue that really hasn't been addressed yet AFAIK.
Perhaps my initial post came off as a bit too negative, but I'll blame the massive hangover I currently have for that, lol. But thank you for being rational and making a decent, polite response, unlike some people.
And again, I will probably try the game. God forbid I might even enjoy it!
The thing is: Did you watch the right ones? There are tons and tons of videos that just show some average joe playing it.
Another thing, about the trinity: In GW2 you are much more involved in the game, because there is no holy trinity. You have to take care of yourself and are also self-reliant. Watch the following videos to see how GW2 plays in dungeons.
You see, it's way different from what you usually play. Maybe you should try it first, because theorycrafting all day is fine and all, but a lot of people play it daily. Hence something does work.
Firstly, Guild Wars 1 is complete and utter trash to me. I've tried to get into that game multiple times, and each time I get bored and quit after an hour or so. So that right there makes me cautious.
Secondly, all of the videos I've seen of GW2 combat make it look identical to pretty much every other MMO out there, except for the fact that you have to dodge a powerful attack occasionally. Wow, that's soooo groundbreaking and awesome... except for the fact that you have to do that in pretty much every MMO out there already. So that's a bust.
[mod edit]
[mod edit]
...I highlighted the portion of your response that is lacking in facts. If you care enough, look into the combat system in GW2 in the multitude of videos and articles that have sprung up since the press beta. The combat is a fair amount different from most every other MMO. As far as your statement that you WANT the holy trinity, well yeah...this game probably isn't for you. The classes still have certain roles to play, but the combat won't be tied to tank/healer/dps nearly as much as recent MMOs.
At the end of the day, if this isn't your cup of tea, more power to you. But i'd suggest making an informed decision rather than the alternative.
[mod edit]
I've watched a TON of videos of GW2 combat, and while I think it looks a little different, I just don't see how it's anything special. Yeah there's a little dodging and other movement based stuff, but it just doesn't look as incredibly unique as everyone is making it out to be. In fact, the lack of abilities is kind of a turn off, although having them be weapon-based does pique my interest a bit.
Also, I never said I really wanted the trinity, I just voiced the concern that some people (not just myself) actually LIKE playing a tank, healer, etc. I admit that some classes do look a little more 'tanky' than others, but since there's no dedicated roles, I was wondering what those players (including myself) are supposed to do, which is an issue that really hasn't been addressed yet AFAIK.
Perhaps my initial post came off as a bit too negative, but I'll blame the massive hangover I currently have for that, lol. But thank you for being rational and making a decent, polite response, unlike some people.
And again, I will probably try the game. God forbid I might even enjoy it!
Before you conclude that GW2's combat isn't anything special, watch this video:
It is a skilled player that shows GW2's combat how it's probably really meant to be played. If, after watching this video, you still feel that GW2's combat isn't anything special, then that's fine. But I think you should do yourself the favor of checking that video out just to see what everyone is talking about .
2. Dumbed down PvE. Anyone tried running dungeon's with full DPS group in other games?
3. No Healer cllass = no PvP tactical combat.
4. Limited skill options.
5. Only two weeks for fight the other servers before rotation. No build a rep for real not some stupid status.
Eh, I wouldn't so sure about this. With the amount of utility available to classes they could in theory actually make them harder. Same with tactics.
How is the server rotation not going to build rep? If anything it will add to it since it will work like a bracket playoff system.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
2. Dumbed down PvE. Anyone tried running dungeon's with full DPS group in other games?
3. No Healer cllass = no PvP tactical combat.
4. Limited skill options.
5. Only two weeks for fight the other servers before rotation. No build a rep for real not some stupid status.
I agree with all of these, but I would also add three more:
6. No raids. I actually really like raiding. It is challenging and engaging if the content is actually difficult. I don't like it when games rely ENTIRELY on raiding for end game, but not having it at all kind of sucks.
7. No seamless world. This always bugs me in MMOs and it sounds like GW2 will be very segmented and highly instanced.
8. TIRED OF FANTASY.
Raid challenging? Really? You can't be serious. There's no real challenge to a raid, especially in a WoW-like game. All you do is follow a script, and that script is one that Blizzard gives out before they even release the raid. It's nothing more than who can get a group of guys to follow the same script together... and people fail even that simple task far too often.
Challenging my arse. You want to see challenging? Have WoW release those raids live and not tell anyone how to do it. Let people experiment and figure them out for themselves.
Of course... your typial "raider" couldn't handle the challenge.
I've watched a TON of videos of GW2 combat, and while I think it looks a little different, I just don't see how it's anything special. Yeah there's a little dodging and other movement based stuff, but it just doesn't look as incredibly unique as everyone is making it out to be. In fact, the lack of abilities is kind of a turn off, although having them be weapon-based does pique my interest a bit.
Also, I never said I really wanted the trinity, I just voiced the concern that some people (not just myself) actually LIKE playing a tank, healer, etc. I admit that some classes do look a little more 'tanky' than others, but since there's no dedicated roles, I was wondering what those players (including myself) are supposed to do, which is an issue that really hasn't been addressed yet AFAIK.
Perhaps my initial post came off as a bit too negative, but I'll blame the massive hangover I currently have for that, lol. But thank you for being rational and making a decent, polite response, unlike some people.
And again, I will probably try the game. God forbid I might even enjoy it!
I appreciate that you didn't like GW1. It tends to be a polarizing game. I didn't like it at first and only played it for a month, but I've gone back and appreciate it as a good but not great game. Some people have tried to go back and still didn't like it. I think that being cautious about GW2 but open to trying it is a great place to be and I applaud people who take that stance.
I understand being hung over and negative, but instead of simply asking questions about the combat or the combat roles or what is going to retain people, you're drawing negative conclusions based on limited information.
Everyone says that Guild Wars has a great community and I try to be an extension of that here on this forum. I'll do my best to answer your questions.
The combat actually has a lot of features which don't necessarily show up in videos. You know that half your bar at one time is determined by your currently selected weapon and it's actually a really nice feature for keeping things fresh. It's not like other games where a sword, axe or mace are all interchangeable. Here you can totally mix it up. Your skillbar isn't really that limited. The majority of classes have two weapon sets and F1-F4 abilities so most people have access to 16+ at a time. If you think about how many you normally use as part of a DPS rotation in a traditional MMO, it's actually a lot of viable skills to have all at once, and you can tailor them to your playstyle. There's no ally targeted abilties AT ALL and your self heal is the strongest heal. So combat is much more fluid with people popping in and out of being in front of a mob to take the heat for a while while someone else recovers. Aggro is primarily, but not always, determined by distance to the mob unlike other games where a tank has a lock on it and its up to the DPS to not pass the threat level. Your abilities can be used at any time, with or without a target. If you want to Savage Leap forward for no reason, you can. Abilities will often hit any enemy who gets in the way of them, not just the target. There's also the Downed state where anyone can rez anyone anytime, even mid combat. This makes the game sound ez-mode but it actually lets them make bosses that can hit like a truck. You can dodge, or the group can still recover even if you don't. And there's hundreds of cross profession combos so that players can support one another.
I'm probably even forgetting some things, but hopefully you can see why a lot of these might not show up on a video by an unskilled solo player.
As far as the lack of trinity goes, because of the limited skillbar, people can still skew their builds towards control or support. As they say in their blog,
Support players want to be able to say, "Remember that one time when I saved you from certain death?" They want to stand in the line of fire and block attacks. They want to surround their allies with a swirling dome of air that keeps enemy projectiles from passing through it. It's not about clicking on a health bar and watching it go up, it's about being there for your friends when they need you.
That pretty much sums it up. You still have support skills or big hammer knockbacks to get an enemy off your friend who needs help. You can't be a pure healer or pure tank due to limitations on heals, targeting and long cooldowns. You're not going to be able to do it all yourself. The burden to make a group successful is more on everyone, but you can still play a vital role.
As far as retention goes, there's just no vertical gear progression. You don't have to raid the same bosses week in and week out to get gear to move up to the next one. Other than that there's a lot of replayability. You automatically scale down in the world so all the events in the world are open to you and challenging and rewarding at max level. There's all kinds of exploration and horizontal progression and vanity stuff to get. There's 3 personal stories per race so there's plenty of replayability just to see those new things. There's 30+ minigames in cities which have their own rewards. There's 32 dungeon paths, 24 of which are the hard explorable mode dungeons (3 hour wipefest). Pick a different dungeon path 3x a week and that's 2 months of "raiding" (assuming you get through each one in one attempt). The game is also massive, so if it takes you 6 months to see it all then you're probably most of the way towards an expansion.
But in general though, why does an MMO have to be a job? It's B2P and that allows you to play other things at the same time. If you find whatever aspect of it fun, then play it. If not, split time with it and some other game. Or put it down until an expansion.
Damn, I've been pretty good about not writing walls of text lately. Anyway, I'll be happy to try to answer any followup questions, but be prepared for another wall.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
2. Dumbed down PvE. Anyone tried running dungeon's with full DPS group in other games?
3. No Healer cllass = no PvP tactical combat.
4. Limited skill options.
5. Only two weeks for fight the other servers before rotation. No build a rep for real not some stupid status.
I agree with all of these, but I would also add three more:
6. No raids. I actually really like raiding. It is challenging and engaging if the content is actually difficult. I don't like it when games rely ENTIRELY on raiding for end game, but not having it at all kind of sucks.
7. No seamless world. This always bugs me in MMOs and it sounds like GW2 will be very segmented and highly instanced.
8. TIRED OF FANTASY.
Your points 6 and 8 are personal opinion and a perfectly valid reason for not liking GW2.
But let me talk about 7...I think there is some misunderstanding here.
GW2 is slightly segmented. As I understand, there are five main outdoor "zones" which make up the world, that you have to zone into, but everything else is seamless except for the typical stuff like: Cities, dungeons, PvP, WvW, etc. This is actually less segmented than SWTOR (zone for each planet), but more segmented than WoW (zone for each of the two continents).
Now, this has NOTHING TO DO with instancing. All it means is that you have to wait for a loading screen when you walk from one zone to another. GW2's outdoor zones are NOT INSTANCED. They may be sharded, but as I understand, they only create a new shard when the zone has reached its limit of people in it. So you shouldn't have a feeling of no one being there.
The only instancing is in:
Structured PvP, Dungeons, personal story crap in your home instance, and maybe some other minor things are instanced.
But the important thing to realize is that GW2 is no more instanced than vanilla WoW really was, and AFAIK there is no phasing either. So I would caution confusing "seamless world" with "instancing."
Re point 6, in gw land the only difference between raiding and instances is the number of players, gw has raiding, but with smaller teams, could very easily see them scaling down people's skills depending on how many players there are. Raiding by wows definition- Time to shutdown, the game is over.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
2. Dumbed down PvE. Anyone tried running dungeon's with full DPS group in other games?
3. No Healer cllass = no PvP tactical combat.
4. Limited skill options.
5. Only two weeks for fight the other servers before rotation. No build a rep for real not some stupid status.
I agree with all of these, but I would also add three more:
6. No raids. I actually really like raiding. It is challenging and engaging if the content is actually difficult. I don't like it when games rely ENTIRELY on raiding for end game, but not having it at all kind of sucks.
7. No seamless world. This always bugs me in MMOs and it sounds like GW2 will be very segmented and highly instanced.
8. TIRED OF FANTASY.
Raid challenging? Really? You can't be serious. There's no real challenge to a raid, especially in a WoW-like game. All you do is follow a script, and that script is one that Blizzard gives out before they even release the raid. It's nothing more than who can get a group of guys to follow the same script together... and people fail even that simple task far too often.
Challenging my arse. You want to see challenging? Have WoW release those raids live and not tell anyone how to do it. Let people experiment and figure them out for themselves.
Of course... your typial "raider" couldn't handle the challenge.
That's actually why I left WoW, and have pretty much given up on MMOs. In order to do even heroics, you need to read about them on a third party site, or use the ingame tool (I left before that was implemented) and know how every fight works. Nobody even wants to learn them the old fashioned way by just running the damn dungeon and use good old fashioned problem solving skills; everything needs to be spoon-fed to them.
Raiding CAN be challenging and fun, IF you don't know what to expect. Sadly, nobody in MMOs these days seems to feel the same way.
On a related note, thank you for the videos people! I hadn't seen those yet, and they do cast the combat in a much better light than most of the ones I've seen. It reminds me a lot of KoA:Reckoning, except using a hotbar instead of button combos. Still nothing that blows my socks off, but it does look a bit more engaging than the usual 'click these buttons in this order' stuff that most MMOs have. Guess I'll just have to play it for myself to decide.
Raid challenging? Really? You can't be serious. There's no real challenge to a raid, especially in a WoW-like game. All you do is follow a script, and that script is one that Blizzard gives out before they even release the raid. It's nothing more than who can get a group of guys to follow the same script together... and people fail even that simple task far too often.
Challenging my arse. You want to see challenging? Have WoW release those raids live and not tell anyone how to do it. Let people experiment and figure them out for themselves.
Of course... your typial "raider" couldn't handle the challenge.
That's actually why I left WoW, and have pretty much given up on MMOs. In order to do even heroics, you need to read about them on a third party site, or use the ingame tool (I left before that was implemented) and know how every fight works. Nobody even wants to learn them the old fashioned way by just running the damn dungeon and use good old fashioned problem solving skills; everything needs to be spoon-fed to them.
Raiding CAN be challenging and fun, IF you don't know what to expect. Sadly, nobody in MMOs these days seems to feel the same way.
On a related note, thank you for the videos people! I hadn't seen those yet, and they do cast the combat in a much better light than most of the ones I've seen. It reminds me a lot of KoA:Reckoning, except using a hotbar instead of button combos. Still nothing that blows my socks off, but it does look a bit more engaging than the usual 'click these buttons in this order' stuff that most MMOs have. Guess I'll just have to play it for myself to decide.
Raiding is challenging...
But it's challenging like planning a meeting is challenging. It can be very difficult to plan a raid around everyone's busy schedule and make sure that everyone shows up. I know, I have to plan meetings at work a lot. Once you actually get in the raid though...it's not challenging unless you're the tank.
But you know what? I would rather have a game challenge me in ways that planning meetings in Outlook at work doesn't.
I've watched a TON of videos of GW2 combat, and while I think it looks a little different, I just don't see how it's anything special. Yeah there's a little dodging and other movement based stuff, but it just doesn't look as incredibly unique as everyone is making it out to be. In fact, the lack of abilities is kind of a turn off, although having them be weapon-based does pique my interest a bit.
Also, I never said I really wanted the trinity, I just voiced the concern that some people (not just myself) actually LIKE playing a tank, healer, etc. I admit that some classes do look a little more 'tanky' than others, but since there's no dedicated roles, I was wondering what those players (including myself) are supposed to do, which is an issue that really hasn't been addressed yet AFAIK.
Perhaps my initial post came off as a bit too negative, but I'll blame the massive hangover I currently have for that, lol. But thank you for being rational and making a decent, polite response, unlike some people.
And again, I will probably try the game. God forbid I might even enjoy it!
I appreciate that you didn't like GW1. It tends to be a polarizing game. I didn't like it at first and only played it for a month, but I've gone back and appreciate it as a good but not great game. Some people have tried to go back and still didn't like it. I think that being cautious about GW2 but open to trying it is a great place to be and I applaud people who take that stance.
I understand being hung over and negative, but instead of simply asking questions about the combat or the combat roles or what is going to retain people, you're drawing negative conclusions based on limited information.
Everyone says that Guild Wars has a great community and I try to be an extension of that here on this forum. I'll do my best to answer your questions.
The combat actually has a lot of features which don't necessarily show up in videos. You know that half your bar at one time is determined by your currently selected weapon and it's actually a really nice feature for keeping things fresh. It's not like other games where a sword, axe or mace are all interchangeable. Here you can totally mix it up. Your skillbar isn't really that limited. The majority of classes have two weapon sets and F1-F4 abilities so most people have access to 16+ at a time. If you think about how many you normally use as part of a DPS rotation in a traditional MMO, it's actually a lot of viable skills to have all at once, and you can tailor them to your playstyle. There's no ally targeted abilties AT ALL and your self heal is the strongest heal. So combat is much more fluid with people popping in and out of being in front of a mob to take the heat for a while while someone else recovers. Aggro is primarily, but not always, determined by distance to the mob unlike other games where a tank has a lock on it and its up to the DPS to not pass the threat level. Your abilities can be used at any time, with or without a target. If you want to Savage Leap forward for no reason, you can. Abilities will often hit any enemy who gets in the way of them, not just the target. There's also the Downed state where anyone can rez anyone anytime, even mid combat. This makes the game sound ez-mode but it actually lets them make bosses that can hit like a truck. You can dodge, or the group can still recover even if you don't. And there's hundreds of cross profession combos so that players can support one another.
I'm probably even forgetting some things, but hopefully you can see why a lot of these might not show up on a video by an unskilled solo player.
As far as the lack of trinity goes, because of the limited skillbar, people can still skew their builds towards control or support. As they say in their blog,
Support players want to be able to say, "Remember that one time when I saved you from certain death?" They want to stand in the line of fire and block attacks. They want to surround their allies with a swirling dome of air that keeps enemy projectiles from passing through it. It's not about clicking on a health bar and watching it go up, it's about being there for your friends when they need you.
That pretty much sums it up. You still have support skills or big hammer knockbacks to get an enemy off your friend who needs help. You can't be a pure healer or pure tank due to limitations on heals, targeting and long cooldowns. You're not going to be able to do it all yourself. The burden to make a group successful is more on everyone, but you can still play a vital role.
As far as retention goes, there's just no vertical gear progression. You don't have to raid the same bosses week in and week out to get gear to move up to the next one. Other than that there's a lot of replayability. You automatically scale down in the world so all the events in the world are open to you and challenging and rewarding at max level. There's all kinds of exploration and horizontal progression and vanity stuff to get. There's 3 personal stories per race so there's plenty of replayability just to see those new things. There's 30+ minigames in cities which have their own rewards. There's 32 dungeon paths, 24 of which are the hard explorable mode dungeons (3 hour wipefest). Pick a different dungeon path 3x a week and that's 2 months of "raiding" (assuming you get through each one in one attempt). The game is also massive, so if it takes you 6 months to see it all then you're probably most of the way towards an expansion.
But in general though, why does an MMO have to be a job? It's B2P and that allows you to play other things at the same time. If you find whatever aspect of it fun, then play it. If not, split time with it and some other game. Or put it down until an expansion.
Damn, I've been pretty good about not writing walls of text lately. Anyway, I'll be happy to try to answer any followup questions, but be prepared for another wall.
To be fair, my initial post was answering the question posed by the OP and thread title, and I don't think some people realized that.
Anyway, thank you for all the info, I knew most of it already insofar as combat, but I didn't know about the dungeon paths and such, which sound quite interesting. Honestly, my largest concern so far has definitely been 'endgame', since I generally don't like PvP in MMOs (although I enjoy a good game of SS3:BFE deathmatch once in a while) and don't want to be a pure PvE'er in a game where the only thing to do at cap is PvP.
2. Dumbed down PvE. Anyone tried running dungeon's with full DPS group in other games?
3. No Healer cllass = no PvP tactical combat.
4. Limited skill options.
5. Only two weeks for fight the other servers before rotation. No build a rep for real not some stupid status.
I agree with all of these, but I would also add three more:
6. No raids. I actually really like raiding. It is challenging and engaging if the content is actually difficult. I don't like it when games rely ENTIRELY on raiding for end game, but not having it at all kind of sucks.
7. No seamless world. This always bugs me in MMOs and it sounds like GW2 will be very segmented and highly instanced.
8. TIRED OF FANTASY.
Raid challenging? Really? You can't be serious. There's no real challenge to a raid, especially in a WoW-like game. All you do is follow a script, and that script is one that Blizzard gives out before they even release the raid. It's nothing more than who can get a group of guys to follow the same script together... and people fail even that simple task far too often.
Challenging my arse. You want to see challenging? Have WoW release those raids live and not tell anyone how to do it. Let people experiment and figure them out for themselves.
Of course... your typial "raider" couldn't handle the challenge.
Umm... yes. Raiding can be very challenging. AND rewarding. I remember trying to tackle some of the vanilla WoW raids like Naxxramas back in the day. They were extremely difficult and we did have to figure things out as we went. I agree that raids in WoW have become easy mode these days, but I said "if the content is actually difficult".
Raids can be a lot of fun and so can things like dedicated tanking/healing. The fact that this game won't have anything for those players will be to its detriment I think.
To answer the OP, maybe because it's just more of the same wrapped up in a different box and some of us are just tired of it. The game will still be a hit I suspect. It is buy to play after all. That no monthly fee will be one of its saving graces.
Comments
No reason to get defensive, it wasn't a personal attack, you just didn't tell the whole story. Probably a reason for that. Again, see my response to you, it isn't even out of closed beta yet, though I suppose, you could just assume that it won't be improved upon...Not a very common sense approach, however.
FYI: Nothing I stated was incorrect. If you read the multiple articles I read, there were varying reviews on the amount of lag encountered. Just because you WANT it to be a certain way, doesn't make it so.
Sorroe, Human Mesmer
Jade Quarry Server
Please. Do yourself a favor and play GW1[free trial is enough] to see how ArenaNet philosophy works
Think you got it wrong. I belive he was refering to the gw2 fans that go in different game threads to say how that game sucks and to "preach the comming of gw2", not about the people that give valid critique.
Arenanet took away your holy trinity and suddently every class is the same? You saw the videos and it's identical to every other MMO out there apart from dodging? You were bored of Guild Wars 1 so that makes you cautious about Gw2?...
[mod edit]
Oh and you top it with attacking the reviewer who "whined" about SWTOR not delivering on it's promises... [mod edit]
..Cake..
[mod edit]I highlighted the portion of your response that is lacking in facts. If you care enough, look into the combat system in GW2 in the multitude of videos and articles that have sprung up since the press beta. The combat is a fair amount different from most every other MMO. As far as your statement that you WANT the holy trinity, well yeah...this game probably isn't for you. The classes still have certain roles to play, but the combat won't be tied to tank/healer/dps nearly as much as recent MMOs.
At the end of the day, if this isn't your cup of tea, more power to you. But i'd suggest making an informed decision rather than the alternative.
Sorroe, Human Mesmer
Jade Quarry Server
Jesus, when did people start getting so sensitive around here? Doesn't take much to hurt someone's feelings, eh?
Some of you need a group hug or something?
Stop taking everything so personal, gheesh.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
[mod edit]
I've watched a TON of videos of GW2 combat, and while I think it looks a little different, I just don't see how it's anything special. Yeah there's a little dodging and other movement based stuff, but it just doesn't look as incredibly unique as everyone is making it out to be. In fact, the lack of abilities is kind of a turn off, although having them be weapon-based does pique my interest a bit.
Also, I never said I really wanted the trinity, I just voiced the concern that some people (not just myself) actually LIKE playing a tank, healer, etc. I admit that some classes do look a little more 'tanky' than others, but since there's no dedicated roles, I was wondering what those players (including myself) are supposed to do, which is an issue that really hasn't been addressed yet AFAIK.
Perhaps my initial post came off as a bit too negative, but I'll blame the massive hangover I currently have for that, lol. But thank you for being rational and making a decent, polite response, unlike some people.
And again, I will probably try the game. God forbid I might even enjoy it!
And someone needs to go back to their hole
I will play it but probably won't care.
1. All DPS zerg combat, can we say boring!
2. Dumbed down PvE. Anyone tried running dungeon's with full DPS group in other games?
3. No Healer cllass = no PvP tactical combat.
4. Limited skill options.
5. Only two weeks for fight the other servers before rotation. No build a rep for real not some stupid status.
I agree with all of these, but I would also add three more:
6. No raids. I actually really like raiding. It is challenging and engaging if the content is actually difficult. I don't like it when games rely ENTIRELY on raiding for end game, but not having it at all kind of sucks.
7. No seamless world. This always bugs me in MMOs and it sounds like GW2 will be very segmented and highly instanced.
8. TIRED OF FANTASY.
The thing is: Did you watch the right ones? There are tons and tons of videos that just show some average joe playing it.
I am going to link one of the best videos out there again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR0-S9SQCW4&feature=plcp&context=C3ffa9f6UDOEgsToPDskL8hWM78Bu5hap6sb8oXV72
Another thing, about the trinity: In GW2 you are much more involved in the game, because there is no holy trinity. You have to take care of yourself and are also self-reliant. Watch the following videos to see how GW2 plays in dungeons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4KDOf5n2SI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt6XgV4QvoQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8sIVI3i95A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sTUAp_K8Uw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMWe2PPOjwo
You see, it's way different from what you usually play. Maybe you should try it first, because theorycrafting all day is fine and all, but a lot of people play it daily. Hence something does work.
Before you conclude that GW2's combat isn't anything special, watch this video:
http://youtu.be/RR0-S9SQCW4
It is a skilled player that shows GW2's combat how it's probably really meant to be played. If, after watching this video, you still feel that GW2's combat isn't anything special, then that's fine. But I think you should do yourself the favor of checking that video out just to see what everyone is talking about
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Eh, I wouldn't so sure about this. With the amount of utility available to classes they could in theory actually make them harder. Same with tactics.
How is the server rotation not going to build rep? If anything it will add to it since it will work like a bracket playoff system.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Lol, locked and then unlocked...
Raid challenging? Really? You can't be serious. There's no real challenge to a raid, especially in a WoW-like game. All you do is follow a script, and that script is one that Blizzard gives out before they even release the raid. It's nothing more than who can get a group of guys to follow the same script together... and people fail even that simple task far too often.
Challenging my arse. You want to see challenging? Have WoW release those raids live and not tell anyone how to do it. Let people experiment and figure them out for themselves.
Of course... your typial "raider" couldn't handle the challenge.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I appreciate that you didn't like GW1. It tends to be a polarizing game. I didn't like it at first and only played it for a month, but I've gone back and appreciate it as a good but not great game. Some people have tried to go back and still didn't like it. I think that being cautious about GW2 but open to trying it is a great place to be and I applaud people who take that stance.
I understand being hung over and negative, but instead of simply asking questions about the combat or the combat roles or what is going to retain people, you're drawing negative conclusions based on limited information.
Everyone says that Guild Wars has a great community and I try to be an extension of that here on this forum. I'll do my best to answer your questions.
The combat actually has a lot of features which don't necessarily show up in videos. You know that half your bar at one time is determined by your currently selected weapon and it's actually a really nice feature for keeping things fresh. It's not like other games where a sword, axe or mace are all interchangeable. Here you can totally mix it up. Your skillbar isn't really that limited. The majority of classes have two weapon sets and F1-F4 abilities so most people have access to 16+ at a time. If you think about how many you normally use as part of a DPS rotation in a traditional MMO, it's actually a lot of viable skills to have all at once, and you can tailor them to your playstyle. There's no ally targeted abilties AT ALL and your self heal is the strongest heal. So combat is much more fluid with people popping in and out of being in front of a mob to take the heat for a while while someone else recovers. Aggro is primarily, but not always, determined by distance to the mob unlike other games where a tank has a lock on it and its up to the DPS to not pass the threat level. Your abilities can be used at any time, with or without a target. If you want to Savage Leap forward for no reason, you can. Abilities will often hit any enemy who gets in the way of them, not just the target. There's also the Downed state where anyone can rez anyone anytime, even mid combat. This makes the game sound ez-mode but it actually lets them make bosses that can hit like a truck. You can dodge, or the group can still recover even if you don't. And there's hundreds of cross profession combos so that players can support one another.
I'm probably even forgetting some things, but hopefully you can see why a lot of these might not show up on a video by an unskilled solo player.
As far as the lack of trinity goes, because of the limited skillbar, people can still skew their builds towards control or support. As they say in their blog,
Support players want to be able to say, "Remember that one time when I saved you from certain death?" They want to stand in the line of fire and block attacks. They want to surround their allies with a swirling dome of air that keeps enemy projectiles from passing through it. It's not about clicking on a health bar and watching it go up, it's about being there for your friends when they need you.
That pretty much sums it up. You still have support skills or big hammer knockbacks to get an enemy off your friend who needs help. You can't be a pure healer or pure tank due to limitations on heals, targeting and long cooldowns. You're not going to be able to do it all yourself. The burden to make a group successful is more on everyone, but you can still play a vital role.
As far as retention goes, there's just no vertical gear progression. You don't have to raid the same bosses week in and week out to get gear to move up to the next one. Other than that there's a lot of replayability. You automatically scale down in the world so all the events in the world are open to you and challenging and rewarding at max level. There's all kinds of exploration and horizontal progression and vanity stuff to get. There's 3 personal stories per race so there's plenty of replayability just to see those new things. There's 30+ minigames in cities which have their own rewards. There's 32 dungeon paths, 24 of which are the hard explorable mode dungeons (3 hour wipefest). Pick a different dungeon path 3x a week and that's 2 months of "raiding" (assuming you get through each one in one attempt). The game is also massive, so if it takes you 6 months to see it all then you're probably most of the way towards an expansion.
But in general though, why does an MMO have to be a job? It's B2P and that allows you to play other things at the same time. If you find whatever aspect of it fun, then play it. If not, split time with it and some other game. Or put it down until an expansion.
Damn, I've been pretty good about not writing walls of text lately. Anyway, I'll be happy to try to answer any followup questions, but be prepared for another wall.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Your points 6 and 8 are personal opinion and a perfectly valid reason for not liking GW2.
But let me talk about 7...I think there is some misunderstanding here.
GW2 is slightly segmented. As I understand, there are five main outdoor "zones" which make up the world, that you have to zone into, but everything else is seamless except for the typical stuff like: Cities, dungeons, PvP, WvW, etc. This is actually less segmented than SWTOR (zone for each planet), but more segmented than WoW (zone for each of the two continents).
Now, this has NOTHING TO DO with instancing. All it means is that you have to wait for a loading screen when you walk from one zone to another. GW2's outdoor zones are NOT INSTANCED. They may be sharded, but as I understand, they only create a new shard when the zone has reached its limit of people in it. So you shouldn't have a feeling of no one being there.
The only instancing is in:
Structured PvP, Dungeons, personal story crap in your home instance, and maybe some other minor things are instanced.
But the important thing to realize is that GW2 is no more instanced than vanilla WoW really was, and AFAIK there is no phasing either. So I would caution confusing "seamless world" with "instancing."
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
That's actually why I left WoW, and have pretty much given up on MMOs. In order to do even heroics, you need to read about them on a third party site, or use the ingame tool (I left before that was implemented) and know how every fight works. Nobody even wants to learn them the old fashioned way by just running the damn dungeon and use good old fashioned problem solving skills; everything needs to be spoon-fed to them.
Raiding CAN be challenging and fun, IF you don't know what to expect. Sadly, nobody in MMOs these days seems to feel the same way.
On a related note, thank you for the videos people! I hadn't seen those yet, and they do cast the combat in a much better light than most of the ones I've seen. It reminds me a lot of KoA:Reckoning, except using a hotbar instead of button combos. Still nothing that blows my socks off, but it does look a bit more engaging than the usual 'click these buttons in this order' stuff that most MMOs have. Guess I'll just have to play it for myself to decide.
Raiding is challenging...
But it's challenging like planning a meeting is challenging. It can be very difficult to plan a raid around everyone's busy schedule and make sure that everyone shows up. I know, I have to plan meetings at work a lot. Once you actually get in the raid though...it's not challenging unless you're the tank.
But you know what? I would rather have a game challenge me in ways that planning meetings in Outlook at work doesn't.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
To be fair, my initial post was answering the question posed by the OP and thread title, and I don't think some people realized that.
Anyway, thank you for all the info, I knew most of it already insofar as combat, but I didn't know about the dungeon paths and such, which sound quite interesting. Honestly, my largest concern so far has definitely been 'endgame', since I generally don't like PvP in MMOs (although I enjoy a good game of SS3:BFE deathmatch once in a while) and don't want to be a pure PvE'er in a game where the only thing to do at cap is PvP.
Umm... yes. Raiding can be very challenging. AND rewarding. I remember trying to tackle some of the vanilla WoW raids like Naxxramas back in the day. They were extremely difficult and we did have to figure things out as we went. I agree that raids in WoW have become easy mode these days, but I said "if the content is actually difficult".
Raids can be a lot of fun and so can things like dedicated tanking/healing. The fact that this game won't have anything for those players will be to its detriment I think.
I've sworn off fantasy mmo's I'll pass
To answer the OP, maybe because it's just more of the same wrapped up in a different box and some of us are just tired of it. The game will still be a hit I suspect. It is buy to play after all. That no monthly fee will be one of its saving graces.
If it's like GW1 and I can't jump, I don't want it. It is a mandatory requirement, after trying GW1 and not being able to get airborne.
I self identify as a monkey.