The point is, the gaming industry on the whole caved in to the theory that "everyone should be gods and heroes" and that's exactly what you're going to get with SWTOR. Everyone is going to have these powers so if you think that an entire universe of force-choking people running around is "Star Warsy" then by all means, have at it. Personally, I find the idea revolting, just as choosing a Jedi from start in NGE was.
Perhaps one day MMOs will just let you start at max level, max powers, max gear and max money. Why not? They're almost there as it is, getting to max level in a week is common practice in this down-trodden industry.
Is that the point? Or is that YOUR point?
When they started making The Old Republic they stated it was a time when there was A LOT of force users running around.
I bet you assumed they ment Jedi and Sith didn't ya?
Nope they ment FORCE USERS.
Which it seems like a lot of people keep confusing the two.
And you think a universe of force-chokers is all about the Star Wars I take it. There's a BIG difference in "a lot" and "everyone".
Considering the amount of characters that is played by us (you are not necessarily included in that) compared to the amount of people (of all races) in the fictional universe we are playng in.
I would say that we are not even 'a lot' perhaps closer to a minimal fraction of the total amount of people.
Let us be really generous (and I really mean really generous) and state that we (the subscribers) charecterise 10 000 000 people in the Star Wars universe and we also limit the total amount to the Coruscant citizen count 1 000 000 000 000 (1 trillion).
And as you already have realised, we (the players) do not portray 10 000 000 people and the total population of the universe is alot bigger than 1 trillion.
So no, not everyone, not even remotely close to everyone.
If 100% of the gamers are considered heros (force-chokers, whatever), what are the odds that the static NPCs are not? You're just assuming that they're not, I would argue that the odds are that they are because if 100% of the player base is, the odds are that they are.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
We're talking about one feature in the Legacy system
and players should expect some unbalancing superpowerful attack because...?
It's not like they have to go out of their way to get Legacy XP. It just accumulates, even when you only have one character.
If the powers the devs plan on giving players are too weak, the player base will whine and complain until it morphs into standard, usable powers. Players are not going to be content with fluff force powers, period.
"Too weak" is subjective.
To me, it should be an equally powered alternative to your standard powers. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
We are not saying only person can be heroic, but you are saying everybody can.
I did not say that everyone can be a hero.
However, you said this:
"I don't see ANYTHING about heroes being limited in number."
Are you now saying they are limited in number?
Read the definition, did you read something about them being limited in number?
If so please correct me.
So you do believe everyone can be a hero? It's getting difficult to follow what you do or do not believe.
It is an MMO and yes in a MMO everyone is a hero. Even if you start in rags and emerge out of a swer you will be a hero one day. I have no idea why are you hammering this point so much as if you just discovered MMOS yesterday.
When everyone in the world does that it is no longer heroic, just normal practice to die for the greater good, if it goes beyond normal behaviour then it becomes heroic, simple logic 101
Splitting hairs now.
Perhaps if literally EVERYONE sacraficed themselves then yes, thats normal behavior, however, that is not the case.
Everyone has a "what if this rare situtation"
Yet you argue that everybody in the world of a computer game can be the hero.
Sure, every PLAYER can be.
If you disagree then how can you be a hero in a single player game?
because theres only one player?
There are a lot of NPC's and enemies right?
In an SP game, the world is completely populated by "average Joe" NPCs. So yes, it's easy for the player to be a hero in an SP game.
But in an MMORPG, the world is populated by players and NPCs. And typically, the NPCs are so static they are more like mannequins...so I don't feel like they really count. They fail at projecting the illusion of a real society, they are more like quest dispensers.
Then you have the players, each and every one of which is "the hero." And it's ridiculous. You see a line of "heroes" all waiting to kill the evil gnoll chief terrorizing the village, or collect the 10 flowers Bob needs for his daughter's cure, or kill the 20 orcs that have been burning the farmland. It's ridiculous.
So you do believe everyone can be a hero? It's getting difficult to follow what you do or do not believe.
I'm still not sure what this has to do with everyone having force powers and how this some how detracts from how heroic people feel, its starting to seem a lot more like you are going after my personal beliefs, which I'm fine with, and more than happy to explain, yet I still think its off topic.
I believe that a hero is someone who does extraordinary actions, so yes, if EVERYONE did an action that was extraordinary to the extent it became ordinary then it would no longer be a heroic action.
That is logical.
however, if a large number of people, number un determaned of course, were to do a same extraordinary action, say if it were over a long peroid of time to where it didn't become "normal" for this action to occur, then still all of them would be heros, as their actions would be heroic.
We'd have to get to the nature of what makes actions "heroic" and how many times you can do an action that is "heroic" before it is no longer considered "heroic".
Which would probably be something better left to a philosophy doctorial candidate.
Every player is considered heroic, by design and by nature. If you choose to believe that your generic heroness is somehow special then that's up to you. Just stating the facts.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Im going to dial my nerd level up to one million for a second and attempt to clear up a lot of the issues in this thread. There are potential spoilers in here so read at your own caution.
Again possible spoilers -
In order to get these legacy abilities, you have to first create a family tree. Not only does this tree contain family information, they also made mention of slots for things like a nemesis. Now setting a force user as your "parent" allows those lower in the tree to inherit force abilities. This is extremely cannon and follows the lore pretty heavily actually. If you remove the force user from the parent slot, and say slot a Bounty Hunter, then everyone loses the force abilities and now can use the flame thrower, which can be explained in a dozen different ways.
Next thing is that these abilities are tied to your heroic moment. Currently all classes get this ability at level 15, and it allows for a special ability (based on class generally revovles around finishing a cd instantly) as well as a hot of 2% max health every 3 seconds for 1 minute and is a on a 20 minute cd. This can only be used when you have a companion active, which means it is non usable in Flashpoints, Raids and Instanced PvP. The new Legacy abilities are tied to this heroic moment, and there will be quests that allow you to reduce the cd timer on it, which will be done through your companions. This means that there will be no balancing issues as you cannot use it in main PvP areas or and instanced PvE areas.
Next is I dont understand how we are seeing that now everyone is too special...since when did force sensitive = Jedi and Jedi = the only hero in SWTOR. The game takes place in a time where Jedi are extremely popular, and you learn that in the last war they assigned 1 Jedi per strike squad when they were taking planets from the Empire. Jedi were everywhere, and a massive amount of them were killed when the temple on Coruscant was destroyed.
After the Jedi destruction at the onset of the Treaty of Coruscant, laws were lessened on what Jedi could do. Jedi are allowed to "attach" and have children, as long as it is approved by the council, and Satele Shan herself has a child with her being the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. This was done as a way to repopulate Jedi numbers to be ready for inevitable war the Republic will face with the Empire, especially after Satele refound the hypserspace route to Tython.
The Empire passed down a law that all force sensitives must train on Korriban to become Sith or die trying, this is an attempt to stem the Jedi numbers, especially after he came so close to wiping them out when the Empire sacked Coruscant. The problem is, is that this is an impossible law to enforce, and unlike the Jedi, the Sith are allowed to copulate with as many women as they damn well please. Even Malgus had a woman till he saw her as too much of a weakness and killed her.
As for Agents/Bounty Hunters having force sensitivity despite the mandate, the answer is simple. Bounty Hunters essentially belong to the Mandalorians after they get off of Hutta. The Mandalorians are one of the empires key allies in the war against the Republic, and have sworn loyalty to the Empire. While you still get treated as a common merc, the majority of the Empire understands how valuable the Mandalorians are to defeating the Republic, they also understand how strong they are in a fight, especially when theres a group of them. This puts the Mandalorians outside the law in most cases, and while some get the bad end, such as one of the companions I wont mention, most are free to come and go in Dromund Kaas as they see fit. A Mandalorian with a gun = deadly, a Mando with the force = do not make angry.
In the Agent story, when you enter the area near Watcher One in Kaas city, Kaliyo actually mentions about how you "come and go as you please, you are the secret police, and people are afraid of you." Agents are the black ops of the Empire, they appear from the shadows, complete the objective and are never seen again. People in the Empire both fear and respect them, and Agents are trained in deception. Force Sensitivity in an agent would simply make them better at their job, something that not even higher ups in the Imperial Military would question, not to mention an Agent would be trained to hide any signs of being Force Sensitive in the first place.
TLDR: No its not lore breaking, yes theres plenty of lore to back up that its not lore breaking, no its not balance breaking, read the massive wall of text if you want to see why.
I would have actually MUCH preferred if they did force powers that way from the start. Where it wasn't so class specific and different classes could pick up different powers. It would have added so much spice to the gameworld.
But instead they implemented a strict "class-based" system where force abilities were completely defined by class, and other classes had non-force abilities that were absolutely on par with the force powers. I think it's more boring, but hey, it works.
Now we hear talk of them giving force powers to every class and once again, SWTOR seems to be a game that has no clue what it's supposed to be. It's clearly designed as a "class-based" themepark with balance in mind...I mean it has completely mirrored classes for heavens sake. But now it's trying to implement some weird "sandboxish" force powers where any class can use them. I can only imagine this is going to cause massive cries of imbalance from the players that actually enjoy the "uber-balance" themepark class design.
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
We are not saying only person can be heroic, but you are saying everybody can.
I did not say that everyone can be a hero.
However, you said this:
"I don't see ANYTHING about heroes being limited in number."
Are you now saying they are limited in number?
Read the definition, did you read something about them being limited in number?
If so please correct me.
So you do believe everyone can be a hero? It's getting difficult to follow what you do or do not believe.
It is an MMO and yes in a MMO everyone is a hero. Even if you start in rags and emerge out of a swer you will be a hero one day. I have no idea why are you hammering this point so much as if you just discovered MMOS yesterday.
Not every game is/was like that. Most MMOs today are focused on providing the gamer with god-like powers and gear.
So no, not every MMO is like that.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
We are not saying only person can be heroic, but you are saying everybody can.
I did not say that everyone can be a hero.
However, you said this:
"I don't see ANYTHING about heroes being limited in number."
Are you now saying they are limited in number?
Read the definition, did you read something about them being limited in number?
If so please correct me.
So you do believe everyone can be a hero? It's getting difficult to follow what you do or do not believe.
It is an MMO and yes in a MMO everyone is a hero. Even if you start in rags and emerge out of a swer you will be a hero one day. I have no idea why are you hammering this point so much as if you just discovered MMOS yesterday.
Not every game is/was like that. Most MMOs today are focused on providing the gamer with god-like powers and gear.
So no, not every MMO is like that.
I would like to know example of MMOS where your character is not treated like hero or doesn't progress towards becoming one just like other thousands of players running around you.
When everyone in the world does that it is no longer heroic, just normal practice to die for the greater good, if it goes beyond normal behaviour then it becomes heroic, simple logic 101
Splitting hairs now.
Perhaps if literally EVERYONE sacraficed themselves then yes, thats normal behavior, however, that is not the case.
Everyone has a "what if this rare situtation"
Yet you argue that everybody in the world of a computer game can be the hero.
Sure, every PLAYER can be.
If you disagree then how can you be a hero in a single player game?
because theres only one player?
There are a lot of NPC's and enemies right?
In an SP game, the world is completely populated by "average Joe" NPCs. So yes, it's easy for the player to be a hero in an SP game.
But in an MMORPG, the world is populated by players and NPCs. And typically, the NPCs are so static they are more like mannequins...so I don't feel like they really count. They fail at projecting the illusion of a real society, they are more like quest dispensers.
Then you have the players, each and every one of which is "the hero." And it's ridiculous. You see a line of "heroes" all waiting to kill the evil gnoll chief terrorizing the village, or collect the 10 flowers Bob needs for his daughter's cure, or kill the 20 orcs that have been burning the farmland. It's ridiculous.
or..trying to complete dynamic events.
*snickers*
GW2 is going to be no different than SWTOR with the "everyone is a hero" nonsense, I will freely admit that . Especially since you have very little to lose from dying.
The only times I can remember actual heroism in games is when players made real self sacrifice (like exp loss) in order to save other players. Like...
In EQ when the tank would stay behind and keep aggro, eventually dying, so the other group members could get away. It didn't happen super often because the tank would lose a significant amount of exp to do this.
So cool, a thread that has morphed into a drag out knuckle scrape over what a hero is. I wonder, how many of the people in the conversation actually have a reference to communicate on the topic, and how many dont? Some sound like they have never been in the position which presented with the option of doing that heroic deed at all, only theroizing how it must be like.
Being a hero is not just the act of doing something that is SEEN by others as a great thing. Its being presented with the choice, knowing well the consiquences are not in your favor, but the alternative, the alternative is far from being better for another. The Hero is the one that choses another over themselves, not for the recognition, but because its the right thing to do.
The making of a hero is not determined by 'what' they did, but 'why' and 'how' they did it. Throwing yourself in front of a comrade, catching a bullet for him, because you wanted to go home from the war does not make you a hero. Throwing yourself in front of a comrade, catching abullet for him, because you wanted to save his life, does.
So in that sense, if a person plays thier character with the hero mentality, doing thier actions in game based on a code of honor, doing what is right even in the face of great odds, then yes they can be heroic. If they play thier chanracter in a game like its a graphical toon with no personality, just a set of numbers gained by gear for the sake of better DPS meter numbers, then no they can not be heroic. Even if BOTH do the same actions throughout the course of thier play.
I recommend some time in the military in real life for anyone who does not understand the meaning of heroic choice. Oh and on the side, a true hero, even after doing something truely heroic, hardly ever claims or believes they ever did anything heroic. Almost always they are humble, believing anyone would have done the same in the same situation.
As for the powers to be granted in the Legacy system, again, they matter naught to the heroic nature of a character if the player who plays it never plays as a hero. A power may make them more powerful, not a hero.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
I would like to know example of MMOS where your character is not treated like hero or doesn't progress towards becoming one just like other thousands of players running around you.
Shadowbane, UO, just off the top of my head.
Star Wars Galaxies.
I mean mostly themepark games give you the whole "you are a hero" story because well... thats what sells?
Who wants to do quests where you become more and more average?
Yes, that's why campaign medals are not as high an honour as medals for bravery, if everyone got medals for bravery it would diminish those who had gone beyond.
My point remains, if 10 people do the same exact heroic action, then they are all heroes, the number of people doing the action does not detract from how heroic their actions were.
if 1 person does heroic things, and then meets up with 9 other people who ALSO did heroic things, they're all heroes, its not like ONE of them suddenly is a hero and the rest are slag.
We are not saying only person can be heroic, but you are saying everybody can.
I did not say that everyone can be a hero.
However, you said this:
"I don't see ANYTHING about heroes being limited in number."
Are you now saying they are limited in number?
Read the definition, did you read something about them being limited in number?
If so please correct me.
So you do believe everyone can be a hero? It's getting difficult to follow what you do or do not believe.
It is an MMO and yes in a MMO everyone is a hero. Even if you start in rags and emerge out of a swer you will be a hero one day. I have no idea why are you hammering this point so much as if you just discovered MMOS yesterday.
Not every game is/was like that. Most MMOs today are focused on providing the gamer with god-like powers and gear.
So no, not every MMO is like that.
I would like to know example of MMOS where your character is not treated like hero or doesn't progress towards becoming one just like other thousands of players running around you.
Sandbox games:
Ultima Online, Eve, Darkfall, etc...
Having super abilities doesn't make you a hero. Using them in a way that distinguishes you from your fellows does.
I would like to know example of MMOS where your character is not treated like hero or doesn't progress towards becoming one just like other thousands of players running around you.
Shadowbane, UO, just off the top of my head.
Star Wars Galaxies.
I mean mostly themepark games give you the whole "you are a hero" story because well... thats what sells?
Who wants to do quests where you become more and more average?
As opposed to a world where everyone is a glow-bat swinger throwing lightning around? I'll take the other.
And BTW, when everyone is a glow-bat smacking, lightning throwing "hero", that is average.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
If you want to say that some players are more heroic than others sure.
How about villainy?
I myself am quite a Villain.
Why are we so focused on if everyone can be the hero? I mean the reason you repubs can BE the hero is because all of the Sith who are Villains.
Sandbox games are full of villains. They are called griefers .
I was a PKK in UO, Yew Militia for life! :-D
My point is that in a game like SWTOR everyone can be "the hero" because half of them are the bad guy heroes who are actually causing most of the situations the good guy heroes have to rise against and be heroic in stopping them.
its like villains vs heros, which is the whole theme of star wars really. So I do think all the players can be "heroic"
So cool, a thread that has morphed into a drag out knuckle scrape over what a hero is. I wonder, how many of the people in the conversation actually have a reference to communicate on the topic, and how many dont? Some sound like they have never been in the position which presented with the option of doing that heroic deed at all, only theroizing how it must be like.
Being a hero is not just the act of doing something that is SEEN by others as a great thing. Its being presented with the choice, knowing well the consiquences are not in your favor, but the alternative, the alternative is far from being better for another. The Hero is the one that choses another over themselves, not for the recognition, but because its the right thing to do.
The making of a hero is not determined by 'what' they did, but 'why' and 'how' they did it. Throwing yourself in front of a comrade, catching a bullet for him, because you wanted to go home from the war does not make you a hero. Throwing yourself in front of a comrade, catching abullet for him, because you wanted to save his life, does.
So in that sense, if a person plays thier character with the hero mentality, doing thier actions in game based on a code of honor, doing what is right even in the face of great odds, then yes they can be heroic. If they play thier chanracter in a game like its a graphical toon with no personality, just a set of numbers gained by gear for the sake of better DPS meter numbers, then no they can not be heroic. Even if BOTH do the same actions throughout the course of thier play.
I recommend some time in the military in real life for anyone who does not understand the meaning of heroic choice. Oh and on the side, a true hero, even after doing something truely heroic, hardly ever claims or believes they ever did anything heroic. Almost always they are humble, believing anyone would have done the same in the same situation.
As for the powers to be granted in the Legacy system, again, they matter naught to the heroic nature of a character if the player who plays it never plays as a hero. A power may make them more powerful, not a hero.
Never thought I would say this, but Kaocan...I completely agree with your post!
The only games I played in which I remember genuine heroic things happening were games where players actually had something very real to lose at stake. Because if you can't lose anything by dying...then "heroic" actions like taking a bullet or whatever will be rather common because well...it doesn't cost you anything to do it, so why not?
On the other hand, if dying costs you something significant like all your stuff or 4 hours worth of exp...then taking that bullet is going to be much less common. I used to think that tanks that would die so their group could get away in EQ were heroic because they knew they would lose a lot of exp to help you. Same with friends in UO who would distract PKs so you could get away...they knew they would probably lose all the stuff on them.
If you want to say that some players are more heroic than others sure.
How about villainy?
I myself am quite a Villain.
Why are we so focused on if everyone can be the hero? I mean the reason you repubs can BE the hero is because all of the Sith who are Villains.
Sandbox games are full of villains. They are called griefers .
I was a PKK in UO, Yew Militia for life! :-D
My point is that in a game like SWTOR everyone can be "the hero" because half of them are the bad guy heroes who are actually causing most of the situations the good guy heroes have to rise against and be heroic in stopping them.
its like villains vs heros, which is the whole theme of star wars really. So I do think all the players can be "heroic"
It's all about your frame of reference. If you include all the NPCs in your frame of reference...then yeah the players are heroic.
But if you don't...then they aren't heroic. Personally, I've never played an MMORPG where the NPCs are any more than mannequins...they don't really fit into the world for me. So my frame of reference is limited to the other players only.
Comments
If 100% of the gamers are considered heros (force-chokers, whatever), what are the odds that the static NPCs are not? You're just assuming that they're not, I would argue that the odds are that they are because if 100% of the player base is, the odds are that they are.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
"Too weak" is subjective.
To me, it should be an equally powered alternative to your standard powers. Nothing more, nothing less.
It is an MMO and yes in a MMO everyone is a hero. Even if you start in rags and emerge out of a swer you will be a hero one day. I have no idea why are you hammering this point so much as if you just discovered MMOS yesterday.
"If everyone is special, no one is special"
If George Lucas himself shits all over the SW lore, then why not BW?
I think we're beyond a point of staunch credibility when it comes to this franchise.
or..trying to complete dynamic events.
*snickers*
A hero is born among a hundred, a wise man is found among a thousand, but an accomplished one might not be found even among a hundred thousand men.
Plato
A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
A hero is one who knows how to hang on one minute longer.
Novalis
Read more:http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/hero.html#ixzz1oSc7FvOW
Every player is considered heroic, by design and by nature. If you choose to believe that your generic heroness is somehow special then that's up to you. Just stating the facts.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Im going to dial my nerd level up to one million for a second and attempt to clear up a lot of the issues in this thread. There are potential spoilers in here so read at your own caution.
Again possible spoilers -
In order to get these legacy abilities, you have to first create a family tree. Not only does this tree contain family information, they also made mention of slots for things like a nemesis. Now setting a force user as your "parent" allows those lower in the tree to inherit force abilities. This is extremely cannon and follows the lore pretty heavily actually. If you remove the force user from the parent slot, and say slot a Bounty Hunter, then everyone loses the force abilities and now can use the flame thrower, which can be explained in a dozen different ways.
Next thing is that these abilities are tied to your heroic moment. Currently all classes get this ability at level 15, and it allows for a special ability (based on class generally revovles around finishing a cd instantly) as well as a hot of 2% max health every 3 seconds for 1 minute and is a on a 20 minute cd. This can only be used when you have a companion active, which means it is non usable in Flashpoints, Raids and Instanced PvP. The new Legacy abilities are tied to this heroic moment, and there will be quests that allow you to reduce the cd timer on it, which will be done through your companions. This means that there will be no balancing issues as you cannot use it in main PvP areas or and instanced PvE areas.
Next is I dont understand how we are seeing that now everyone is too special...since when did force sensitive = Jedi and Jedi = the only hero in SWTOR. The game takes place in a time where Jedi are extremely popular, and you learn that in the last war they assigned 1 Jedi per strike squad when they were taking planets from the Empire. Jedi were everywhere, and a massive amount of them were killed when the temple on Coruscant was destroyed.
After the Jedi destruction at the onset of the Treaty of Coruscant, laws were lessened on what Jedi could do. Jedi are allowed to "attach" and have children, as long as it is approved by the council, and Satele Shan herself has a child with her being the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. This was done as a way to repopulate Jedi numbers to be ready for inevitable war the Republic will face with the Empire, especially after Satele refound the hypserspace route to Tython.
The Empire passed down a law that all force sensitives must train on Korriban to become Sith or die trying, this is an attempt to stem the Jedi numbers, especially after he came so close to wiping them out when the Empire sacked Coruscant. The problem is, is that this is an impossible law to enforce, and unlike the Jedi, the Sith are allowed to copulate with as many women as they damn well please. Even Malgus had a woman till he saw her as too much of a weakness and killed her.
As for Agents/Bounty Hunters having force sensitivity despite the mandate, the answer is simple. Bounty Hunters essentially belong to the Mandalorians after they get off of Hutta. The Mandalorians are one of the empires key allies in the war against the Republic, and have sworn loyalty to the Empire. While you still get treated as a common merc, the majority of the Empire understands how valuable the Mandalorians are to defeating the Republic, they also understand how strong they are in a fight, especially when theres a group of them. This puts the Mandalorians outside the law in most cases, and while some get the bad end, such as one of the companions I wont mention, most are free to come and go in Dromund Kaas as they see fit. A Mandalorian with a gun = deadly, a Mando with the force = do not make angry.
In the Agent story, when you enter the area near Watcher One in Kaas city, Kaliyo actually mentions about how you "come and go as you please, you are the secret police, and people are afraid of you." Agents are the black ops of the Empire, they appear from the shadows, complete the objective and are never seen again. People in the Empire both fear and respect them, and Agents are trained in deception. Force Sensitivity in an agent would simply make them better at their job, something that not even higher ups in the Imperial Military would question, not to mention an Agent would be trained to hide any signs of being Force Sensitive in the first place.
TLDR: No its not lore breaking, yes theres plenty of lore to back up that its not lore breaking, no its not balance breaking, read the massive wall of text if you want to see why.
My Guild Wars 2 Vids
In response to the OP...
I would have actually MUCH preferred if they did force powers that way from the start. Where it wasn't so class specific and different classes could pick up different powers. It would have added so much spice to the gameworld.
But instead they implemented a strict "class-based" system where force abilities were completely defined by class, and other classes had non-force abilities that were absolutely on par with the force powers. I think it's more boring, but hey, it works.
Now we hear talk of them giving force powers to every class and once again, SWTOR seems to be a game that has no clue what it's supposed to be. It's clearly designed as a "class-based" themepark with balance in mind...I mean it has completely mirrored classes for heavens sake. But now it's trying to implement some weird "sandboxish" force powers where any class can use them. I can only imagine this is going to cause massive cries of imbalance from the players that actually enjoy the "uber-balance" themepark class design.
It just doesn't make sense to me...
Are force powers class specific or are they not?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Not every game is/was like that. Most MMOs today are focused on providing the gamer with god-like powers and gear.
So no, not every MMO is like that.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
If you want to say that some players are more heroic than others sure.
How about villainy?
I myself am quite a Villain.
Why are we so focused on if everyone can be the hero? I mean the reason you repubs can BE the hero is because all of the Sith who are Villains.
I would like to know example of MMOS where your character is not treated like hero or doesn't progress towards becoming one just like other thousands of players running around you.
GW2 is going to be no different than SWTOR with the "everyone is a hero" nonsense, I will freely admit that
. Especially since you have very little to lose from dying.
The only times I can remember actual heroism in games is when players made real self sacrifice (like exp loss) in order to save other players. Like...
In EQ when the tank would stay behind and keep aggro, eventually dying, so the other group members could get away. It didn't happen super often because the tank would lose a significant amount of exp to do this.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I think it'd make sense if these special iconic powers/abilities could only be used in your personal story instances during conversations.
Like the Renegade and Paragon special actions you can perform in ME2 and 3.
Instead of 3 "personality" dialogue choices in a convo you also get a "use power" option.
So if the NPC pisses you off in convo you can force choke him a bit.
But the amount of work to add all that to the conversations/story would be... staggering... so there is no way they'll do it.
So cool, a thread that has morphed into a drag out knuckle scrape over what a hero is. I wonder, how many of the people in the conversation actually have a reference to communicate on the topic, and how many dont? Some sound like they have never been in the position which presented with the option of doing that heroic deed at all, only theroizing how it must be like.
Being a hero is not just the act of doing something that is SEEN by others as a great thing. Its being presented with the choice, knowing well the consiquences are not in your favor, but the alternative, the alternative is far from being better for another. The Hero is the one that choses another over themselves, not for the recognition, but because its the right thing to do.
The making of a hero is not determined by 'what' they did, but 'why' and 'how' they did it. Throwing yourself in front of a comrade, catching a bullet for him, because you wanted to go home from the war does not make you a hero. Throwing yourself in front of a comrade, catching abullet for him, because you wanted to save his life, does.
So in that sense, if a person plays thier character with the hero mentality, doing thier actions in game based on a code of honor, doing what is right even in the face of great odds, then yes they can be heroic. If they play thier chanracter in a game like its a graphical toon with no personality, just a set of numbers gained by gear for the sake of better DPS meter numbers, then no they can not be heroic. Even if BOTH do the same actions throughout the course of thier play.
I recommend some time in the military in real life for anyone who does not understand the meaning of heroic choice. Oh and on the side, a true hero, even after doing something truely heroic, hardly ever claims or believes they ever did anything heroic. Almost always they are humble, believing anyone would have done the same in the same situation.
As for the powers to be granted in the Legacy system, again, they matter naught to the heroic nature of a character if the player who plays it never plays as a hero. A power may make them more powerful, not a hero.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Shadowbane, UO, just off the top of my head.
Star Wars Galaxies.
I mean mostly themepark games give you the whole "you are a hero" story because well... thats what sells?
Who wants to do quests where you become more and more average?
Sandbox games:
Ultima Online, Eve, Darkfall, etc...
Having super abilities doesn't make you a hero. Using them in a way that distinguishes you from your fellows does.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Sandbox games are full of villains. They are called griefers
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I would agree with your assertions about heroisim and how someone who is truely heroic would most likely also be humble.
I also agree that a heroic deed is based off intent, rather than end result.
I am rather sad you had to be insulting about the character of the people speaking in the thread to get your point across though.
As opposed to a world where everyone is a glow-bat swinger throwing lightning around? I'll take the other.
And BTW, when everyone is a glow-bat smacking, lightning throwing "hero", that is average.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I was a PKK in UO, Yew Militia for life! :-D
My point is that in a game like SWTOR everyone can be "the hero" because half of them are the bad guy heroes who are actually causing most of the situations the good guy heroes have to rise against and be heroic in stopping them.
its like villains vs heros, which is the whole theme of star wars really. So I do think all the players can be "heroic"
Yes but having a light saber, using the force, THAT doesn't make them a hero.
What makes them heroic is the events that unfold and the choices that are made, the intent behind them.
Never thought I would say this, but Kaocan...I completely agree with your post!
The only games I played in which I remember genuine heroic things happening were games where players actually had something very real to lose at stake. Because if you can't lose anything by dying...then "heroic" actions like taking a bullet or whatever will be rather common because well...it doesn't cost you anything to do it, so why not?
On the other hand, if dying costs you something significant like all your stuff or 4 hours worth of exp...then taking that bullet is going to be much less common. I used to think that tanks that would die so their group could get away in EQ were heroic because they knew they would lose a lot of exp to help you. Same with friends in UO who would distract PKs so you could get away...they knew they would probably lose all the stuff on them.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
It's all about your frame of reference. If you include all the NPCs in your frame of reference...then yeah the players are heroic.
But if you don't...then they aren't heroic. Personally, I've never played an MMORPG where the NPCs are any more than mannequins...they don't really fit into the world for me. So my frame of reference is limited to the other players only.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?