I think most of you are looking at the idea of "being a hero" the wrong way. BioWare never intended for the players to be heroes in comparison to other players but heroes in terms of the storyline and in terms of the galaxy at large.
But they're all still considered "heros" regardless of chosen class. You can not opt out of being the "hero", the story-driven content will not allow someone not to be a hero.
ya, which means if you don't like that then the game is not for you.
It's not as if BioWare suddenly surprised everyone with this concept when pretty much every hype video they've ever released talked about you being the hero doing heroic things.
I have no doubt that it's not for me, that wasn't the discussion.
I would argue that Bioware, and many other gaming companies, directly place the gamer on the path to heroism and forcefully push them down that linear path with no exception. They took "do or do not, there is no try" to a whole new level. There is no option to become a hero or not, you MUST become the hero, which once again, makes everyone the same and defeats the purpose and definition of being a true hero.
wait
Does that mean Bioware is The Force?
Lol, something like that.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Laughing Man, I applaud your patience with these trolls. You are very informative and make perfect sense. You obviously know the lore and what heros mean in video games (unless we are talking some sandbox game without the need for hero players). Let those who believe they are right, believe they are right. You will be a better person because of it. Man people on this site, find something else to do in a positive light, please.
You know, I thought Laughing Man and the others were actually having a pretty good discussion here. In fact, we actually kind of came to an understanding. And then you come in and call everyone trolls lol.
Sorry that we didn't agree with you, but that doesn't make us trolls .
Actually, there are a lot of trolls in this thread. Myself included. Simply because we went way off topic and spent the majority of 160+ posts debating something unrelated to the OP.
Just saying.
I guess I'm a purist ...
To me trolling still means:
"To do something for the sole purpose of soliciting a reaction from someone."
I think most of you are looking at the idea of "being a hero" the wrong way. BioWare never intended for the players to be heroes in comparison to other players but heroes in terms of the storyline and in terms of the galaxy at large.
But they're all still considered "heros" regardless of chosen class. You can not opt out of being the "hero", the story-driven content will not allow someone not to be a hero.
ya, which means if you don't like that then the game is not for you.
It's not as if BioWare suddenly surprised everyone with this concept when pretty much every hype video they've ever released talked about you being the hero doing heroic things.
I have no doubt that it's not for me, that wasn't the discussion.
I would argue that Bioware, and many other gaming companies, directly place the gamer on the path to heroism and forcefully push them down that linear path with no exception. They took "do or do not, there is no try" to a whole new level. There is no option to become a hero or not, you MUST become the hero, which once again, makes everyone the same and defeats the purpose and definition of being a true hero.
It's a story-based game, where "like a movie" you are scripted to become the hero. After you finish the story, you're supposed to feel heroic within the confines of your personal storyline just like you look at John McClain as the hero of the Die Hard films. There's no room for allowing you to roam the galaxy raising banthas and moisture farming. Different video games focus on different aspects of gameplay. SW:TOR focuses on scripted story, whereas a game like Skyrim is going to focus on freedom-of-choice and freedom to explore the game world as you please. As a result, SW:TOR has relatively limited freedom of exploration and Skyrim has a relatively poor main storyline because the emphasis was placed on different areas of gameplay.
If its like a movie, then someone else is the hero, and it is not the whole cast.
Good point. Perhaps cinamatic-driven would be a better description.
But I agree, about the only freedom of choice you have in SWTOR is which class you want to be your "hero". It amazes me how this kind of Skinner box method of gameplay has become so sucessful. How did freedom get pushed out for slavery?
Strange times indeed.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Ahem. I believe I subbed to this Star Wars MMO so I could plant seeds and water my crops, while succumbing to death by womp rats. I hate this heroic shit, I wanna be a nobody in a SW MMO for $15 a month.
/sarcasm
On topic note, I'm pretty sure there is only one iconic skill available for use in legacy between classes (i.e. you only get access to force choke from warriors). That being said, at present time its purely speculation (on my part as well), so why don't we wait to see how Bioware is going to handle the legacy system when 1.2 rolls out, then begin to trample all over the system regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
Considering the amount of characters that is played by us (you are not necessarily included in that) compared to the amount of people (of all races) in the fictional universe we are playng in.
I would say that we are not even 'a lot' perhaps closer to a minimal fraction of the total amount of people.
Let us be really generous (and I really mean really generous) and state that we (the subscribers) charecterise 10 000 000 people in the Star Wars universe and we also limit the total amount to the Coruscant citizen count 1 000 000 000 000 (1 trillion).
And as you already have realised, we (the players) do not portray 10 000 000 people and the total population of the universe is alot bigger than 1 trillion.
So no, not everyone, not even remotely close to everyone.
If 100% of the gamers are considered heros (force-chokers, whatever), what are the odds that the static NPCs are not? You're just assuming that they're not, I would argue that the odds are that they are because if 100% of the player base is, the odds are that they are.
Ofcourse I am assuming, we are portraying the best of whatever class we choose. If you portray a smuggler, yes then you are the best smuggler around, or at least within the top fraction. You are the one that finally does that thing that nobody else ever have been able to.
No you can't say that because 100% of the player portrayed character if force senistive (or whatever the word was) then you should assume that the rest of the population is.
(Compare my thinking to that the capsuleers in EVE are portrayed by the players, yes there is a few NPC capsuleers. But we the players are the 'elite' of the gameuniverse.)
Skill based progression is more deisrable because I can mix and match skills I want, customizing my gameplay. They went with class based progression and so adding nickle and dime skills seems out of place. They should just create more classes or sub classes.
That said, anything they can do to allow further customization would be a + right?
Considering the amount of characters that is played by us (you are not necessarily included in that) compared to the amount of people (of all races) in the fictional universe we are playng in.
I would say that we are not even 'a lot' perhaps closer to a minimal fraction of the total amount of people.
Let us be really generous (and I really mean really generous) and state that we (the subscribers) charecterise 10 000 000 people in the Star Wars universe and we also limit the total amount to the Coruscant citizen count 1 000 000 000 000 (1 trillion).
And as you already have realised, we (the players) do not portray 10 000 000 people and the total population of the universe is alot bigger than 1 trillion.
So no, not everyone, not even remotely close to everyone.
If 100% of the gamers are considered heros (force-chokers, whatever), what are the odds that the static NPCs are not? You're just assuming that they're not, I would argue that the odds are that they are because if 100% of the player base is, the odds are that they are.
Ofcourse I am assuming, we are portraying the best of whatever class we choose. If you portray a smuggler, yes then you are the best smuggler around, or at least within the top fraction. You are the one that finally does that thing that nobody else ever have been able to.
No you can't say that because 100% of the player portrayed character if force senistive (or whatever the word was) then you should assume that the rest of the population is.
(Compare my thinking to that the capsuleers in EVE are portrayed by the players, yes there is a few NPC capsuleers. But we the players are the 'elite' of the gameuniverse.)
SWTOR forces you to be the "hero", 100% of the gamers are forced to be "heros".
If the game forces you to be the hero and 100% of the gamers are heros, it's logical to think that everyone in the game is also the hero. Thinking otherwise defies the mechanics of the game.
But whatever, it's kind of a silly hypothetical argument anyways. The game forces all players to be "heros" for each chosen class and therefore are just like everyone else. You CAN NOT choose NOT to be a "hero" if so desired.
If you want to believe that you're somehow more special than the next "hero" standing next to you, that's your choice, I'm just stating the obvious game mechanics.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Did`nt have the time/strength to read all the posts, so sorry if it was already mentionned..
But from what we know, these powers will be like the "heroic" power we already have, meaning, that they will only be usable on a 20min cooldown and when you have your companion by your side. (not in full group Flashpoint, Operations or PvP..)
So, basically, it's just a "nice to have" while levelling, that won't have much impact on the game. At least, imo, not enough to generate a thread with 10000 posts... well.. that`s what I thought... you guys never stop to amaze me!
Well it is not so strange that there are force sensitive ppl in the SWG universe that are not trained to be Jedi or Sith. Canon is full of those. Complete force sensitive races even.
It is maybe just strange that a BH discovers this kind of late in his life that he is force sensitive and then suddenly can apply it with such precision.
As was stated, when everyone is special, nobody is. If everyone is an "EPIC HERO" then nobody is, they're just average, like everyone else.
again, simply untrue.
Ok so we have Me, I'll be the Sith Inquisitor, I'm a member of the dark council and a powerful Sith force user. then we have my friend, hes ALSO a member of the dark council, hes a sith warrior, and a very powerful force user, both of us have a lot of stories about how strong and powerful we are under our belts.
Both of us are Heroes, and we go out and do heroic things together.
This doesn't detract from our heroisim. Rather adds to it. Just because there are other heros around you does not lessen how heroic you are.
Have you played Star Wars TOR? I mean it really makes a lot of sense if you do a Flash point, as everyone in your party is an epic hero including you, yet it surely doesn't detract from what happens or lessens how heroic you feel.
Again, there are a lot of people (NPCS) in the story who have very little or no power at all.
If your problem is merely that other players are heroes too... well then you are probably playing the wrong game / genre of games.
Multiply that you and your friend with a thousand and then is when it becomes absurd, There cannot be 1000 Anakins and 1000 Luke at the same time, it just does not make any sort of sense. How many thousands of members does the dark council have exactly? And how many feats are possible for all these thousands of council members? The whole point of being a hero is to do something special, but if thousands are doing the same thing, it is not really special now is it. You just become one in a very large crowd.
Anyway to get back to the original topic. In this game a Jedi or Sith is not considered anything special (even if it makes no sense to me). So with that premise I dont see how it matters to give away force abilities like candy. It is like a small pile of shit on a big pile of shit, really does not matter.
I think most of you are looking at the idea of "being a hero" the wrong way. BioWare never intended for the players to be heroes in comparison to other players but heroes in terms of the storyline and in terms of the galaxy at large.
But they're all still considered "heros" regardless of chosen class. You can not opt out of being the "hero", the story-driven content will not allow someone not to be a hero.
ya, which means if you don't like that then the game is not for you.
It's not as if BioWare suddenly surprised everyone with this concept when pretty much every hype video they've ever released talked about you being the hero doing heroic things.
I have no doubt that it's not for me, that wasn't the discussion.
I would argue that Bioware, and many other gaming companies, directly place the gamer on the path to heroism and forcefully push them down that linear path with no exception. They took "do or do not, there is no try" to a whole new level. There is no option to become a hero or not, you MUST become the hero, which once again, makes everyone the same and defeats the purpose and definition of being a true hero.
It's a story-based game, where "like a movie" you are scripted to become the hero. After you finish the story, you're supposed to feel heroic within the confines of your personal storyline just like you look at John McClain as the hero of the Die Hard films. There's no room for allowing you to roam the galaxy raising banthas and moisture farming. Different video games focus on different aspects of gameplay. SW:TOR focuses on scripted story, whereas a game like Skyrim is going to focus on freedom-of-choice and freedom to explore the game world as you please. As a result, SW:TOR has relatively limited freedom of exploration and Skyrim has a relatively poor main storyline because the emphasis was placed on different areas of gameplay.
If its like a movie, then someone else is the hero, and it is not the whole cast.
Good point. Perhaps cinamatic-driven would be a better description.
But I agree, about the only freedom of choice you have in SWTOR is which class you want to be your "hero". It amazes me how this kind of Skinner box method of gameplay has become so sucessful. How did freedom get pushed out for slavery?
Strange times indeed.
It's not a good point at all Your story is almost entirely a single player experience, so within the confines of the story, you "are" the only hero. Thinking in terms of your character, Does he or she really know what epic escapades the Troopers, Consulars, and Smugglers he or she teams up with have participated in? The only way the player is even going to know is by playing through each class's storyline. Even in terms of the thousands of others who are playing through the same story as you, "your" story is still "your" story and yours alone. Who really cares that, for example, the jedi knight story is exactly the same for every jedi knight? Do you feel less heroic in Dragon Age simply because your best friend down the street also beat the game last weekend?
Also, again, how many people make up the population of the Star Wars galaxy? 75 quadrillion? If the 1 million or so players represent the only heroes in the galaxy, I think that's a perfectly acceptable number. In comparison to your fellow players, you aren't any more or any less heroic, but you certainly are more heroic in comparison to the greater population of the galaxy, and that is what BioWare was aiming for.
Your problem is you can't understand what I mentioned above -- that different games focus on different aspects of gameplay. You have free-roam sandbox style games like Skyrim, the Grand Theft Auto series, the Saint's Row series, the Gothic series, Risen, Two Worlds II, Ultima Online, Darkfall, and EVE online just to name the first games that popped into my head, and then you have more linear story-driven games such as Mass Effect, SW:TOR, KOTOR, the Final Fantasy series, Kingdoms of Amalur, and the Fable series. You seem to think that focusing on a story-based experience automatically makes the game inferior to a more free-roam experience when in reality it's just focusing on two different styles of play. I for one am glad every game is not like Skyrim. When I want to feel as if I'm living in a virtual world, I play Skyrim. When I want to play through a good story, I play KOTOR.
SW:TOR obviously doesn't appeal to someone like you, so I'm not sure why you and so many others keep whining over this aspect of gameplay. That would be like me going to the Darkfall forums every day and complaining about how much the game is a failure because of free-for-all PVP.
As was stated, when everyone is special, nobody is. If everyone is an "EPIC HERO" then nobody is, they're just average, like everyone else.
again, simply untrue.
Ok so we have Me, I'll be the Sith Inquisitor, I'm a member of the dark council and a powerful Sith force user. then we have my friend, hes ALSO a member of the dark council, hes a sith warrior, and a very powerful force user, both of us have a lot of stories about how strong and powerful we are under our belts.
Both of us are Heroes, and we go out and do heroic things together.
This doesn't detract from our heroisim. Rather adds to it. Just because there are other heros around you does not lessen how heroic you are.
Have you played Star Wars TOR? I mean it really makes a lot of sense if you do a Flash point, as everyone in your party is an epic hero including you, yet it surely doesn't detract from what happens or lessens how heroic you feel.
Again, there are a lot of people (NPCS) in the story who have very little or no power at all.
If your problem is merely that other players are heroes too... well then you are probably playing the wrong game / genre of games.
Anyway to get back to the original topic. In this game a Jedi or Sith is not considered anything special (even if it makes no sense to me). So with that premise I dont see how it matters to give away force abilities like candy. It is like a small pile of shit on a big pile of shit, really does not matter.
Lol, truth right there. Sad but true. It's no longer l33t being just mere "heros".
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
As was stated, when everyone is special, nobody is. If everyone is an "EPIC HERO" then nobody is, they're just average, like everyone else.
again, simply untrue.
Ok so we have Me, I'll be the Sith Inquisitor, I'm a member of the dark council and a powerful Sith force user. then we have my friend, hes ALSO a member of the dark council, hes a sith warrior, and a very powerful force user, both of us have a lot of stories about how strong and powerful we are under our belts.
Both of us are Heroes, and we go out and do heroic things together.
This doesn't detract from our heroisim. Rather adds to it. Just because there are other heros around you does not lessen how heroic you are.
Have you played Star Wars TOR? I mean it really makes a lot of sense if you do a Flash point, as everyone in your party is an epic hero including you, yet it surely doesn't detract from what happens or lessens how heroic you feel.
Again, there are a lot of people (NPCS) in the story who have very little or no power at all.
If your problem is merely that other players are heroes too... well then you are probably playing the wrong game / genre of games.
Multiply that you and your friend with a thousand and then is when it becomes absurd, There cannot be 1000 Anakins and 1000 Luke at the same time, it just does not make any sort of sense. How many thousands of members does the dark council have exactly? And how many feats are possible for all these thousands of council members? The whole point of being a hero is to do something special, but if thousands are doing the same thing, it is not really special now is it. You just become one in a very large crowd. Do you ever even see 1000 other players in an MMO and interact with them to the level in which you know them? No. So is it hard to believe that the limited number of people you interact with are also in their own right heroes of the empire / republic?
Anyway to get back to the original topic. In this game a Jedi or Sith is not considered anything special (even if it makes no sense to me). So with that premise I dont see how it matters to give away force abilities like candy. It is like a small pile of shit on a big pile of shit, really does not matter. Having force powers doesn't equate being a hero. Their actions make them heroic. Having force powers was never really special in this time peroid, there are force sensatives all over the place. Again, this three thousand years before the movies, before three separate purgings of all force senatives from the galaxy... yes in this time peroid there are quite A LOT of force capable individuals.
What would make you heroic is actions, abilities are never heroic in nature.
Edit: What makes you special in this game again, is not your abilities or your history is the choices you made in the story line.
I think most of you are looking at the idea of "being a hero" the wrong way. BioWare never intended for the players to be heroes in comparison to other players but heroes in terms of the storyline and in terms of the galaxy at large.
But they're all still considered "heros" regardless of chosen class. You can not opt out of being the "hero", the story-driven content will not allow someone not to be a hero.
ya, which means if you don't like that then the game is not for you.
It's not as if BioWare suddenly surprised everyone with this concept when pretty much every hype video they've ever released talked about you being the hero doing heroic things.
I have no doubt that it's not for me, that wasn't the discussion.
I would argue that Bioware, and many other gaming companies, directly place the gamer on the path to heroism and forcefully push them down that linear path with no exception. They took "do or do not, there is no try" to a whole new level. There is no option to become a hero or not, you MUST become the hero, which once again, makes everyone the same and defeats the purpose and definition of being a true hero.
It's a story-based game, where "like a movie" you are scripted to become the hero. After you finish the story, you're supposed to feel heroic within the confines of your personal storyline just like you look at John McClain as the hero of the Die Hard films. There's no room for allowing you to roam the galaxy raising banthas and moisture farming. Different video games focus on different aspects of gameplay. SW:TOR focuses on scripted story, whereas a game like Skyrim is going to focus on freedom-of-choice and freedom to explore the game world as you please. As a result, SW:TOR has relatively limited freedom of exploration and Skyrim has a relatively poor main storyline because the emphasis was placed on different areas of gameplay.
If its like a movie, then someone else is the hero, and it is not the whole cast.
Good point. Perhaps cinamatic-driven would be a better description.
But I agree, about the only freedom of choice you have in SWTOR is which class you want to be your "hero". It amazes me how this kind of Skinner box method of gameplay has become so sucessful. How did freedom get pushed out for slavery?
Strange times indeed.
It's not a good point at all Your story is almost entirely a single player experience, so within the confines of the story, you "are" the only hero.
So, I guess callilng it a MMO is problematic in the first place?
Thinking in terms of your character, Does he or she really know what epic escapades the Troopers, Consulars, and Smugglers he or she teams up with have participated in? The only way the player is even going to know is by playing through each class's storyline. Even in terms of the thousands of others who are playing through the same story as you, "your" story is still "your" story and yours alone.
...along with everyone else who has also chosen that "hero" class. Same quests. Same cut scenes. Same voice overs. Same hero, different skin.
Who really cares that, for example, the jedi knight story is exactly the same for every jedi knight? Do you feel less heroic in Dragon Age simply because your best friend down the street also beat the game last weekend?
Never played that game but if everyone is forced down the same "hero" path ala SWTOR then yes, I wouldn't feel heroic at all, just ordinary.
Your problem is you can't understand what I mentioned above -- that different games focus on different aspects of gameplay. You have free-roam sandbox style games like Skyrim, the Grand Theft Auto series, the Saint's Row series, the Gothic series, Risen, Two Worlds II, Ultima Online, Darkfall, and EVE online just to name the first games that popped into my head, and then you have more linear story-driven games such as Mass Effect, SW:TOR, KOTOR, the Final Fantasy series, Kingdoms of Amalur, and the Fable series. You seem to think that focusing on a story-based experience automatically makes the game inferior to a more free-roam experience when in reality it's just focusing on two different styles of play. I for one am glad every game is not like Skyrim. When I want to feel as if I'm living in a virtual world, I play Skyrim. When I want to play through a good story, I play KOTOR.
I understand the differences just fine. My problem is understanding how a Skinner box can be so much fun to be chained inside of.
SW:TOR obviously doesn't appeal to someone like you, so I'm not sure why you and so many others keep whining over this aspect of gameplay. That would be like me going to the Darkfall forums every day and complaining about how much the game is a failure because of free-for-all PVP.
Whining? Why not just go ahead and call us trolls and haters for good measure. I'm thankful that people actually take the time to post their displeasure with games here, it's saved me many a buck. Perhaps one day MMORPG.com will become a place where only "positive" and "uplifting" posts will be allowed but until that time I'm glad we all have a voice.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Who really cares that, for example, the jedi knight story is exactly the same for every jedi knight? Do you feel less heroic in Dragon Age simply because your best friend down the street also beat the game last weekend?
Never played that game but if everyone is forced down the same "hero" path ala SWTOR then yes, I wouldn't feel heroic at all, just ordinary.
So you don't like single player games that are linear?
This is like saying you don't like the book Ender's Game because someone other than you read it.
Who really cares that, for example, the jedi knight story is exactly the same for every jedi knight? Do you feel less heroic in Dragon Age simply because your best friend down the street also beat the game last weekend?
Never played that game but if everyone is forced down the same "hero" path ala SWTOR then yes, I wouldn't feel heroic at all, just ordinary.
So you don't like single player games that are linear?
This is like saying you don't like the book Ender's Game because someone other than you read it.
Your analogy isn't the best but close, at least for games like SWTOR. Everyone is fulfilling the same destiny, becoming the same "hero" in a different skin. I prefer open-ended games, yes, I'm not much for being chained inside of a Skinner box being forced to play their way.
Freedom is good, you should try it sometime.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I have been following the discussions of the guild summit and they talked about changes and additions that will be coming to patch 1.2 in April. One of them is that with the Legacy System you'll be able to unlock force users skills on non-force user classes.
For instance a Bounty Hunter will be able to unlock Force Choke.
Why would they do this? Doesn't this totally go against lore? Bioware was all ready playing lose with the lore, but isn't this going a little over the top. Also, if they do this, what will Force Users get? Will they get the ability to use blasters?
For someone like me that has yet decide if they are going to play the game someday, this is not helping to put me into the mood of doing so. So what does everyone else think about this?
Because Bioware wants to make as much money as possible, and their thinking is that letting more players use the force in their games means more money for them. Whether it's within the realms of Star Wars canon and lore is beside the point to them. I'm sure they try to remain consistent with canon and lore when possible, but feel free to break away when necessary. Either way, this is a decision based primiarily on finances.
And yes (to everyone else), this is all just my speculation and subjective opinion based on my own common sense. I am not presenting my opinion as fact. Do not read it that way.
As was stated, when everyone is special, nobody is. If everyone is an "EPIC HERO" then nobody is, they're just average, like everyone else.
again, simply untrue.
Ok so we have Me, I'll be the Sith Inquisitor, I'm a member of the dark council and a powerful Sith force user. then we have my friend, hes ALSO a member of the dark council, hes a sith warrior, and a very powerful force user, both of us have a lot of stories about how strong and powerful we are under our belts.
Both of us are Heroes, and we go out and do heroic things together.
This doesn't detract from our heroisim. Rather adds to it. Just because there are other heros around you does not lessen how heroic you are.
Have you played Star Wars TOR? I mean it really makes a lot of sense if you do a Flash point, as everyone in your party is an epic hero including you, yet it surely doesn't detract from what happens or lessens how heroic you feel.
Again, there are a lot of people (NPCS) in the story who have very little or no power at all.
If your problem is merely that other players are heroes too... well then you are probably playing the wrong game / genre of games.
Multiply that you and your friend with a thousand and then is when it becomes absurd, There cannot be 1000 Anakins and 1000 Luke at the same time, it just does not make any sort of sense. How many thousands of members does the dark council have exactly? And how many feats are possible for all these thousands of council members? The whole point of being a hero is to do something special, but if thousands are doing the same thing, it is not really special now is it. You just become one in a very large crowd.
Anyway to get back to the original topic. In this game a Jedi or Sith is not considered anything special (even if it makes no sense to me). So with that premise I dont see how it matters to give away force abilities like candy. It is like a small pile of shit on a big pile of shit, really does not matter.
In the Old Republic, yes...there can be that many. The canon shows that Jedis and Sith were more numerous back in the days of the Old Republic than they were during the time of the movies. This isn't something Bioware invented. This has existed in the canon for as long as it's been around. These aren't the days of the Jedi order being demolished and having to go into hiding. These aren't the days of only one Sith Lord and his apprentice. Jedi and Sith are plentiful.
And you also aren't taking into account that the world's population (notice I said "World's" population, not "Game's" population) consists of more than just the characters that people are playing. The population also consists of the npcs in the game, and the random people out on the streets that you run across. And, with just a tiny bit of imagination, those that are unseen in the game. Those folks compose a large group of the world's population that aren't heroic.
So as far as that goes, the "everyone is special, so no one is special" argument doesn't fly. And even if you are unwilling to take into account that this DOES follow canon and lore, and going strictly on the notion of thousands of heroes running around not being particularly special...who gives a shit? It's a fucking MMO. And a themepark MMO at that. Anything aside from a pure sandbox game will have the same exact thing: thousands of heroes running around being heroic. Welcome to themeparks. WoW did it. Aion did it. Rift did it. Lotro did it. Conan did it. TOR did it. Tera did it. GW2 and TSW will also do it. Hell, if anything, TOR does it BETTER than those other games, because it limits the amount of mundane, everyman quests that it gives its "heroes" to do. They actually give you quests that are more heroic than "go kill me some boars" or "Go take this package for Farmer John for me." At least in TOR, you get the feeling that most (not all) of the missions you are sent to do require someone heroic to complete them, not some random nobody off the street.
This thread is awesome its over 20 pages and its devolved into an arguement over there are to many heroes in Tor. And what started this thread. Some skills can unlock for a race if you have a level 50 character of another class. On Skills tied to have a companion out which means can't be used in pvp,ops, or flashpoint. Pretty much nothing but making leveling another character easier or when doing daily quests. These things start on a 20 minute cooldown as well.
- Heroic Moment ability (not usable in Warzones/Ops etc)
- Unlock Heroic Abilities (ex. using Force Choke on your agent - again, not usable in Warzones/Ops and usable only with an active companion)
- Complete all missions for a companion “type” (e.g. ranged tank) unlocks a shorter cooldown for Heroic Moment, a small stat boost and additional Presence buff for all your companions.
No there have been all throughout star wars people who have gained force abilities,but werent jedi and didnt use a lightsaber. The idea of the legacy system is that you main toon leaves a legacy for the others to follow and advantage from. This is how leia and Luke were able to learn teh froce. Their dads blood left them to be force sensitive. Since all your toons are in the same family... the same thing applies.
No there have been all throughout star wars people who have gained force abilities,but werent jedi and didnt use a lightsaber. The idea of the legacy system is that you main toon leaves a legacy for the others to follow and advantage from. This is how leia and Luke were able to learn teh froce. Their dads blood left them to be force sensitive. Since all your toons are in the same family... the same thing applies.
no of course not. U can have your alt be any of the races that u could be at launch. I for one have a jedi whose a miraluka and a inquistor whose a zabrak
Im probably gonna do a chiss as a bh or something, So u can be any race u want on your alts, U dont have to be all zabrak if u dont wanna be .
every mmo does this when they are desperate for sub they will go out of their lore, warhammer did the samething with, daoc did the samething.
Umm while i 100% agree with you on WAR, its kinda of hard to go out of lore with DAoC considering Mythick made the lore themselves. Sure it was based on myths and legends, but it was still based on lore they made for there game.
I have been following the discussions of the guild summit and they talked about changes and additions that will be coming to patch 1.2 in April. One of them is that with the Legacy System you'll be able to unlock force users skills on non-force user classes.
For instance a Bounty Hunter will be able to unlock Force Choke.
Why would they do this? Doesn't this totally go against lore? Bioware was all ready playing lose with the lore, but isn't this going a little over the top. Also, if they do this, what will Force Users get? Will they get the ability to use blasters?
For someone like me that has yet decide if they are going to play the game someday, this is not helping to put me into the mood of doing so. So what does everyone else think about this?
I would happier if my smuggler wan't a complete moron and could figure out how to use a blaster rifle.
So, I guess callilng it a MMO is problematic in the first place
Only if you completely ignore the flashpoints, group quests, operations, and PVP maps that make it just as much of an MMORPG as all other games that model themselves after WoW. The only major difference is SW:TOR adds a story component to the solo questing already found all over MMORPGs.
...along with everyone else who has also chosen that "hero" class. Same quests. Same cut scenes. Same voice overs. Same hero, different skin
But unless you are teamed up with one and you both are duoing all class quest instances where you literally repeat each instance twice so both of you can get credit, how does that affect you that other people playing the same class have the same story? The lore dictates that there is only one jedi that confronts the emperor, and one jedi (you) is all you will ever see doing such. All that mattters is what "you" see in "your" game. The rest of the jedi out there may as well be stage extras for all you care. This is a multiplayer game, you can't have a million different storylines for players to play through, so certain consessions have to be made. If you are unable to accept those concessions that's your problem, not BioWare's.
Never played that game but if everyone is forced down the same "hero" path ala SWTOR then yes, I wouldn't feel heroic at all, just ordinary.
It's a single-player game. With a few minor differences, you're going to end up playing through the exact same game as your friend down the street. If you understood all that, you are essentially saying that you still wouldn't feel heroic right? Does that also mean you won't find the experience enjoyable? What can you do in a game like Skyrim that makes you feel heroic? Give me example of something you can do in another MMORPG that makes you feel heroic.
I understand the differences just fine. My problem is understanding how a Skinner box can be so much fun to be chained inside of
Free-roam games don't provide the same sort of entertainment as a storybased game. I like pizza, but I wouldn't want to eat it every night. Similarly, I love games that give me a lot of freedom to explore and to do whatever I want whenever I feel like it, but those aren't the only games I enjoy. I feel sorry that you're missing out on a load of really good games all because you cannot enjoy anything but a free-roam sandbox.
Whining? Why not just go ahead and call us trolls and haters for good measure. I'm thankful that people actually take the time to post their displeasure with games here, it's saved me many a buck. Perhaps one day MMORPG.com will become a place where only "positive" and "uplifting" posts will be allowed but until that time I'm glad we all have a voice.
There's a lot you can criticize about SW:TOR, but the story-based gameplay isn't really one of those things. It's working exactly as intended and is quite enjoyable "if" you like that style of gameplay. From day 1, BioWare made no secret about the sort of game they were making, so I don't know where you get off on saying stuff like criticism here has "saved...many a buck." Unless you've been living under a rock, you should know that SW:TOR was always going to be a story-based MMORPG modeled after World of Warcraft. You didn't need to come to mmorpg.com to listen to critiques to figure that one out, yet all you keep going on about is how linear the game is and how you can't feel heroic because everyone else is following the same linear questline. Guess what though, that's how all BioWare games are. From KOTOR to Mass Effect to Dragon Age, all their games are linear storylines that you progress through exactly like the next guy only there might be a few more options here and there because those games are all single player. So now that I've said that, it's not that what you're complaining about shows any flaws with SW:TOR. You're only complaining because you don't like that style of game. If you want to talk about a lack of endgame content, issues on Illum, questionable class balance, and performance issues, find the appropriate thread and complain away, but when what you're complaining about isn't any sort of issue with the game and is simply a personal preference, you're simply whining when you profess them over and over again. I'm sorry the game didn't turn out the way you wanted it to, but for a lot of us, the story-based gameplay suites our tastes just fine.
Comments
Lol, something like that.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I guess I'm a purist
...
To me trolling still means:
"To do something for the sole purpose of soliciting a reaction from someone."
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Good point. Perhaps cinamatic-driven would be a better description.
But I agree, about the only freedom of choice you have in SWTOR is which class you want to be your "hero". It amazes me how this kind of Skinner box method of gameplay has become so sucessful. How did freedom get pushed out for slavery?
Strange times indeed.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Ahem. I believe I subbed to this Star Wars MMO so I could plant seeds and water my crops, while succumbing to death by womp rats. I hate this heroic shit, I wanna be a nobody in a SW MMO for $15 a month.
/sarcasm
On topic note, I'm pretty sure there is only one iconic skill available for use in legacy between classes (i.e. you only get access to force choke from warriors). That being said, at present time its purely speculation (on my part as well), so why don't we wait to see how Bioware is going to handle the legacy system when 1.2 rolls out, then begin to trample all over the system regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
Ofcourse I am assuming, we are portraying the best of whatever class we choose. If you portray a smuggler, yes then you are the best smuggler around, or at least within the top fraction. You are the one that finally does that thing that nobody else ever have been able to.
No you can't say that because 100% of the player portrayed character if force senistive (or whatever the word was) then you should assume that the rest of the population is.
(Compare my thinking to that the capsuleers in EVE are portrayed by the players, yes there is a few NPC capsuleers. But we the players are the 'elite' of the gameuniverse.)
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
My 2 cents.
Skill based progression is more deisrable because I can mix and match skills I want, customizing my gameplay. They went with class based progression and so adding nickle and dime skills seems out of place. They should just create more classes or sub classes.
That said, anything they can do to allow further customization would be a + right?
SWTOR forces you to be the "hero", 100% of the gamers are forced to be "heros".
If the game forces you to be the hero and 100% of the gamers are heros, it's logical to think that everyone in the game is also the hero. Thinking otherwise defies the mechanics of the game.
But whatever, it's kind of a silly hypothetical argument anyways. The game forces all players to be "heros" for each chosen class and therefore are just like everyone else. You CAN NOT choose NOT to be a "hero" if so desired.
If you want to believe that you're somehow more special than the next "hero" standing next to you, that's your choice, I'm just stating the obvious game mechanics.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Did`nt have the time/strength to read all the posts, so sorry if it was already mentionned..
But from what we know, these powers will be like the "heroic" power we already have, meaning, that they will only be usable on a 20min cooldown and when you have your companion by your side. (not in full group Flashpoint, Operations or PvP..)
So, basically, it's just a "nice to have" while levelling, that won't have much impact on the game. At least, imo, not enough to generate a thread with 10000 posts... well.. that`s what I thought... you guys never stop to amaze me!
Well it is not so strange that there are force sensitive ppl in the SWG universe that are not trained to be Jedi or Sith. Canon is full of those. Complete force sensitive races even.
It is maybe just strange that a BH discovers this kind of late in his life that he is force sensitive and then suddenly can apply it with such precision.
Multiply that you and your friend with a thousand and then is when it becomes absurd, There cannot be 1000 Anakins and 1000 Luke at the same time, it just does not make any sort of sense. How many thousands of members does the dark council have exactly? And how many feats are possible for all these thousands of council members? The whole point of being a hero is to do something special, but if thousands are doing the same thing, it is not really special now is it. You just become one in a very large crowd.
Anyway to get back to the original topic. In this game a Jedi or Sith is not considered anything special (even if it makes no sense to me). So with that premise I dont see how it matters to give away force abilities like candy. It is like a small pile of shit on a big pile of shit, really does not matter.
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It's not a good point at all Your story is almost entirely a single player experience, so within the confines of the story, you "are" the only hero. Thinking in terms of your character, Does he or she really know what epic escapades the Troopers, Consulars, and Smugglers he or she teams up with have participated in? The only way the player is even going to know is by playing through each class's storyline. Even in terms of the thousands of others who are playing through the same story as you, "your" story is still "your" story and yours alone. Who really cares that, for example, the jedi knight story is exactly the same for every jedi knight? Do you feel less heroic in Dragon Age simply because your best friend down the street also beat the game last weekend?
Also, again, how many people make up the population of the Star Wars galaxy? 75 quadrillion? If the 1 million or so players represent the only heroes in the galaxy, I think that's a perfectly acceptable number. In comparison to your fellow players, you aren't any more or any less heroic, but you certainly are more heroic in comparison to the greater population of the galaxy, and that is what BioWare was aiming for.
Your problem is you can't understand what I mentioned above -- that different games focus on different aspects of gameplay. You have free-roam sandbox style games like Skyrim, the Grand Theft Auto series, the Saint's Row series, the Gothic series, Risen, Two Worlds II, Ultima Online, Darkfall, and EVE online just to name the first games that popped into my head, and then you have more linear story-driven games such as Mass Effect, SW:TOR, KOTOR, the Final Fantasy series, Kingdoms of Amalur, and the Fable series. You seem to think that focusing on a story-based experience automatically makes the game inferior to a more free-roam experience when in reality it's just focusing on two different styles of play. I for one am glad every game is not like Skyrim. When I want to feel as if I'm living in a virtual world, I play Skyrim. When I want to play through a good story, I play KOTOR.
SW:TOR obviously doesn't appeal to someone like you, so I'm not sure why you and so many others keep whining over this aspect of gameplay. That would be like me going to the Darkfall forums every day and complaining about how much the game is a failure because of free-for-all PVP.
Lol, truth right there. Sad but true. It's no longer l33t being just mere "heros".
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
What would make you heroic is actions, abilities are never heroic in nature.
Edit: What makes you special in this game again, is not your abilities or your history is the choices you made in the story line.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
So you don't like single player games that are linear?
This is like saying you don't like the book Ender's Game because someone other than you read it.
Your analogy isn't the best but close, at least for games like SWTOR. Everyone is fulfilling the same destiny, becoming the same "hero" in a different skin. I prefer open-ended games, yes, I'm not much for being chained inside of a Skinner box being forced to play their way.
Freedom is good, you should try it sometime.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Because Bioware wants to make as much money as possible, and their thinking is that letting more players use the force in their games means more money for them. Whether it's within the realms of Star Wars canon and lore is beside the point to them. I'm sure they try to remain consistent with canon and lore when possible, but feel free to break away when necessary. Either way, this is a decision based primiarily on finances.
And yes (to everyone else), this is all just my speculation and subjective opinion based on my own common sense. I am not presenting my opinion as fact. Do not read it that way.
In the Old Republic, yes...there can be that many. The canon shows that Jedis and Sith were more numerous back in the days of the Old Republic than they were during the time of the movies. This isn't something Bioware invented. This has existed in the canon for as long as it's been around. These aren't the days of the Jedi order being demolished and having to go into hiding. These aren't the days of only one Sith Lord and his apprentice. Jedi and Sith are plentiful.
And you also aren't taking into account that the world's population (notice I said "World's" population, not "Game's" population) consists of more than just the characters that people are playing. The population also consists of the npcs in the game, and the random people out on the streets that you run across. And, with just a tiny bit of imagination, those that are unseen in the game. Those folks compose a large group of the world's population that aren't heroic.
So as far as that goes, the "everyone is special, so no one is special" argument doesn't fly. And even if you are unwilling to take into account that this DOES follow canon and lore, and going strictly on the notion of thousands of heroes running around not being particularly special...who gives a shit? It's a fucking MMO. And a themepark MMO at that. Anything aside from a pure sandbox game will have the same exact thing: thousands of heroes running around being heroic. Welcome to themeparks. WoW did it. Aion did it. Rift did it. Lotro did it. Conan did it. TOR did it. Tera did it. GW2 and TSW will also do it. Hell, if anything, TOR does it BETTER than those other games, because it limits the amount of mundane, everyman quests that it gives its "heroes" to do. They actually give you quests that are more heroic than "go kill me some boars" or "Go take this package for Farmer John for me." At least in TOR, you get the feeling that most (not all) of the missions you are sent to do require someone heroic to complete them, not some random nobody off the street.
This thread is awesome its over 20 pages and its devolved into an arguement over there are to many heroes in Tor. And what started this thread. Some skills can unlock for a race if you have a level 50 character of another class. On Skills tied to have a companion out which means can't be used in pvp,ops, or flashpoint. Pretty much nothing but making leveling another character easier or when doing daily quests. These things start on a 20 minute cooldown as well.
- Heroic Moment ability (not usable in Warzones/Ops etc)
- Unlock Heroic Abilities (ex. using Force Choke on your agent - again, not usable in Warzones/Ops and usable only with an active companion)
- Complete all missions for a companion “type” (e.g. ranged tank) unlocks a shorter cooldown for Heroic Moment, a small stat boost and additional Presence buff for all your companions.
No there have been all throughout star wars people who have gained force abilities,but werent jedi and didnt use a lightsaber. The idea of the legacy system is that you main toon leaves a legacy for the others to follow and advantage from. This is how leia and Luke were able to learn teh froce. Their dads blood left them to be force sensitive. Since all your toons are in the same family... the same thing applies.
Do all your alts have to be the same race?no of course not. U can have your alt be any of the races that u could be at launch. I for one have a jedi whose a miraluka and a inquistor whose a zabrak
Im probably gonna do a chiss as a bh or something, So u can be any race u want on your alts, U dont have to be all zabrak if u dont wanna be .
Umm while i 100% agree with you on WAR, its kinda of hard to go out of lore with DAoC considering Mythick made the lore themselves. Sure it was based on myths and legends, but it was still based on lore they made for there game.
Lolipops !
I would happier if my smuggler wan't a complete moron and could figure out how to use a blaster rifle.