Really, I guess I can change my POV on ganking too. Only the unaware and unprepared get ganked. The rest stay alert or stay out of areas that typically get ganked. Unfairness is a part of life, and to some it is a joyous part, and to some it's not so much.
But really, by playing a game that is OW PvP, you are consenting to play in a PvE world with PvP possibility from the start. Those that don't realize they are playing a game with such features are the ones that get ganked, then whine about how unfair it is. Life has never been fair, and there are always ways to get around the unfairness, like what I pointed out above. GW2 only makes people a little more aware that they are choosing to be in an environment that is PvP oriented and allows for PvE as well.
Ganking is still possible in WvW, and I won't be naive in thinking that it won't happen. Gear still plays a roll in GW2, and I'm thinking a slightly bigger one than most are choosing to see. It doesn't go so far as to be worth more than skill, but enough to allow players of lower skill and higher gear to prevail over those of equal or slightly higher skill level depending on the gear differences.
TO Aishirami:
I understand your point very well ou should read my previous post on this page it's post nr. 442
in which I pretty much said in other words what you just said to me. This one was posted just to praise an honest ganker that says it straight like it is, he doesn't like it cause there's no ganking.
But sure in post nr. 442 I do say ganking and ambushing is still possible and thrilling simply because even if you jump someone he might be lower lv than you but if your skill level is to low he will obliterate you anyway. it is by far the best type of ganking, in which the victim still might have a chance of winning provided he has the skillset.
Also, I am really looking forward to WvW, despite agreeing with a lot of the aspects that most GW2 fans disagree with. I think ganking will mean more in GW2, but those fans that say WvW is designed to not allow it are clearly not seeing what is in front of them completely.
I don't think anybody ever said they wont be ganking because ganking is not really the problem when it comes to Open world PvP. The main problems with World world PvP has been fixed by WvW's implimentation. WvW removes griefing lowbies and to a lesser degree PvErs.
While there is a level difference, if getting attack is an issue you are pretty much go level in a safe zone (PvE) until you are ready to do WvW, if you hate getting attack by high level characters.
The other problem if you are in WvW, you pretty much are expected to PvP. And so there are sometimes when you want a break from PvP to do some PvE stuff for money, the separation of WvW and PvE allows someone to take a break from PvP.
Not saying WvW is perfect or even close cuz its not and imo it kinda blows sometimes, but it sucks far less than having world PvP.
W v W fixes the issue of a high level atacking a low level as well, and it's part of the thrill now in GW2, because the stats are boosted for all characters to lv 80, though your skills stay at your current lv so you do have a chance.
in most mmorpg's if a low level is jumped there's almost no way for him to retaliate that is the issue most didn't like and is what ruins open world PVP. in GW2 this ambushing is still present and it's fun and exciting because of the way W v W has been designed. I myself will play W v W exclusively from lv1 on one of my characters.
I guess we are discussing about the wrong issue here. As already explained above, ganking in WvW is very possible. You like to gank? No problem, get a group and jump on single sheeps or smaller groups. Problem solved. This is the nature of unbalanced PvP. And WvW is unablanced PvP. There is also sPvP in GW2. This is different. I dont like sPvP, btw. No sports please.
Lets compare an open world like EVE with WvW. In EVE people do very often build gangs of about 10-20 people, roam around and kill players. Or they run to survive, if they meet a bigger fleet. Mostly they kill single players or smaller groups. Are these gankers? Are they bad players? Well, you can do that in WvW as well. Build a group, roam around and kill smaller groups and single players.
The difference is, why do you roam and kill? Why did i participate in EVE gangs? I did participate, because
- i did disturb the economy of my hostile neighbour this way
- i did demotivate my hostile neighbour with massive ganking
- i did disturb processes of my hostile neighbour
- ...and so on ... you got the picture, what my motivation is.
Of course there are other fights, too. Home defense and territorial fleet battles are also very popular beside roaming gangs. Btw, this lonesome wolf ganking sheeps is pretty much dead in EVE nowadays. They just get ganked too often themselves. But lets focus on roaming groups.
Can you do that in WvW? I guess yes. You can disturb the enemies processes and economy via attacking the support lines. And you can gank as hell to demotivate the enemies forces.
I never killed people just for the sake of fun. What would Sigmund Freud say about people killing for fun? Gankers do kill people for fun. And people who love to kill for fun, complain about gankers. Its strange, isnt it? However, you can kill people just for fun in EVE as you can in WvW.
So its hard to tell the difference between EVE and WvW. Both have killing for a reason, both have killing for fun, both have massive ganking. People, who love killing for fun as well as pure gankers - which have fun killing, too - will see no big difference between EVE and WvW.
The difference is for people, who are killing for a reason. There are much more economical, political and social reasons to kill people in EVE. Because a sandbox is much more complex in that department. In a theme-park like GW2 the reasons are mostly artificial. And dev-made content which gives you reasons is limited. For example there are caravans you may disturb, in order to destabilize enemies processes. In a sandbox there are tons of things you can do, to disturb your enemies complex economy. Some 0.0-wars in EVE where won in Jita without any shot, btw.
So my point is, this discussions goes into the wrong direction. Its not about ganking, fun, instances or persistance. All that does not matter. Both exist in both games in a certain way. What matters are, what reasons do i have to fight and what type of achievements are possible. And HERE classic open world PvP and GW2s WvW are very different.
PS: I never played a pure ganker in EVE and other PvP-games. But i guess i should start to do that in WvW. Just for the sake of fun. Why? Because its a good reason, and there are not so many other non-artificial reasons to kill stuff in WvW. Unfortunately i focused on PVE during the BWEs and visited WvW just for a few hours. However, i should try a ganker this time. Actually GW2 sounds like gankers paradise to me. No risk, just fun
UsulDaNeriak Very nice well thought out post, very insgithful and quite a good read Kudos.
just one thing though, You did touch on a subject we haven't discussed which is also a very good point on your part.
why do people kill other players ? what is the incentive ?
I think this is also why almost all current open world PVP devolves into a ganking and griefing for fun paradise
simply because there are no benefits whatsoever to do proper open world pvp, like you said in EVE there's always a more complex reason or an economically driven reason to do it, kudos to EVE for having meaningfull open world PVP probably one of the few games that has meaning to it.
the primary issue is the difference between for example X game open world PVP and GW2 W v W PVP.
scenario:
X game, you are lv30, you're questing, and you get jumped by a lv50 there's no way in hell you have a sliver of a chance of beating him. This is the kind of open world PVP in most mmo's to date and most people don't enjoy it, do you know of any other open world PVP game besides EVE, that has any sort of meaningful open world PVP ? the answer is most likely NO, why, simple, the lack of purpose and incentives to do meaningful open world PVP is none existant, and so it devolves into a gankers, griefers paradise. Few months later the game is almost desolate, noone is playing anymore and only the PVE servers are decently populated.
GW2, you are in W v W and you're lv30, you're questing and you get jumped by a lv80, here's the big difference, even though he is max lv you are still able to put up a decent fight, (if you have a high enough skill level as a player) simply because of the way W v W has been designed with stat boost to lv 80 your skills remain at your current lv though. This is one of the many reasons why so many people are excited about GW2 and the philosophy behind their W v W design, they kept the adrenaline rush, the sense of danger while still keeping the ganking, ambushing style of gameplay viable and giving you meaningful, impactful reasons to do so, the best part is the ganker and the the one being ganked are both having fun. Now that is proper PVP to me.
In GW2 W v W PVP, there's also always a reason to try and disrupt your enemies economy, infrastructure and supply lines.
it's all about the world bonuses that are awarded to the winning server, and those are serverwide.
As you can see it is all about having a fighting chance even if you are lower lv, not just getting trashed around.
GW2, you are in W v W and you're lv30, you're questing and you get jumped by a lv80, here's the big difference, even though he is max lv you are still able to put up a decent fight, (if you have a high enough skill level as a player) simply because of the way W v W has been designed with stat boost to lv 80 your skills remain at your current lv though. This is one of the many reasons why so many people are excited about GW2 and the philosophy behind their W v W design, they kept the adrenaline rush, the sense of danger while still keeping the ganking, ambushing style of gameplay viable and giving you meaningful, impactful reasons to do so, the best part is the ganker and the the one being ganked are both having fun. Now that is proper PVP to me.
In GW2 W v W PVP, there's also always a reason to try and disrupt your enemies economy, infrastructure and supply lines.
it's all about the world bonuses that are awarded to the winning server, and those are serverwide.
As you can see it is all about having a fighting chance even if you are lower lv, not just getting trashed around.
I see the difference for a mid-level guy soloing PVE-content in the PvP-zone, who is attacked by a lvl 80. But I guess, you can reach this in some open world games, too. With a broad horizontal and lateral progression like in EVE, you better get some skills, which allows you to escape better and you prepare for escape always by several techniques. And the difference between a 30 Mio SP player and a 80 Mio SP player in EVE is not as dramatic like Lvl 30 vs lvl 80 in DF/MO or even in this harmonized GW2 WvW. I just see, that avoiding to get ganked is more casual in GW2.
And imho, the solo-ganker is pretty seldom in EVE, becuase its very frustrating and doesnt make so much sense. But i fully agree, that there are tons of cheap indie games out there where solo-ganking is easy and enjoyable for a ganker. And you are fully right, that they often got no other complex features to keep PVPers busy with other stuff than killing sheeps.
Of course there is always a reason to disrupt your enemies economy in WvW. But the economy in WvW is just a tiny minigame compared to a full blown player driven economy like in EVE. So there are much more options, how to attack an enemies economy and processes.
I know that its all about world bonusses. Honestly, for me thats a pretty lame achievement. And again, I miss the many other types of achievements i learned to love in EVE.
I also see, that Arenanet did try to implement some more even chances in 1v1 fight in open world. I simply avoid such fights. If a game supports it, thats not a big deal. Of course, its not casual. And btw, if you are tired of gankers killing lowlevels, just avoid the PvP-zones until you are maxlevel or skilled enough. Doesnt take too long nowadays. Of course a game needs a clear separation of PvP and huge fully safe PvE zones. DF and MO dont have that. And thats the major fault of nearly all Open World Games. Some turrets near cities is not enough space. And EVE should get fully rid of highsec-ganking. Even if i myself was never stupid enough to get ganked in the Empire and dont care for myself. But i care for the sheeps. We need these sheeps for a healthy population. We should not be able to kill them. We just kill our game this way.
So Arenanets approach to decrease the impact of ganking is very honest, and i fully support it. But is this the only way, to do so? I guess no. Is WvW the Holy Grail of Open World PvP and should all coming games go this route? HELL NO! There are better ways to implement it. Its just more effort for the devs and less casual for the players.
I would be very happy, with GW2s WvW as it is with bumping player level and such. If GW2s WvW would just be much bigger; very very much bigger. In order to allow persistent territorial GvG with player cities, terraforming, planting & breeding and all that stuff. And the most important thing: based on a player driven economy.Because i am fully convinced, that the human greed for wealth and ressources is the best working motivation for fighting others ever. A player driven economy would have a huge impact on the themeparks instant reward & loot system in PVE (events, heart quests, personal story). THIS is the main issue with implementing real open world PvP in a theme-park. Is such a "sandpark" impossible? I hope not.
Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak Originally posted by latinkuroGW2, you are in W v W and you're lv30, you're questing and you get jumped by a lv80, here's the big difference, even though he is max lv you are still able to put up a decent fight, (if you have a high enough skill level as a player) simply because of the way W v W has been designed with stat boost to lv 80 your skills remain at your current lv though. This is one of the many reasons why so many people are excited about GW2 and the philosophy behind their W v W design, they kept the adrenaline rush, the sense of danger while still keeping the ganking, ambushing style of gameplay viable and giving you meaningful, impactful reasons to do so, the best part is the ganker and the the one being ganked are both having fun. Now that is proper PVP to me.In GW2 W v W PVP, there's also always a reason to try and disrupt your enemies economy, infrastructure and supply lines.it's all about the world bonuses that are awarded to the winning server, and those are serverwide.As you can see it is all about having a fighting chance even if you are lower lv, not just getting trashed around.
I see the difference for a mid-level guy soloing PVE-content in the PvP-zone, who is attacked by a lvl 80. But I guess, you can reach this in some open world games, too. With a broad horizontal and lateral progression like in EVE, you better get some skills, which allows you to escape better and you prepare for escape always by several techniques. And the difference between a 30 Mio SP player and a 80 Mio SP player in EVE is not as dramatic like Lvl 30 vs lvl 80 in DF/MO or even in this harmonized GW2 WvW. I just see, that avoiding to get ganked is more casual in GW2.
<snip>
I would be very happy, with GW2s WvW as it is with bumping player level and such. If GW2s WvW would just be much bigger; very very much bigger. In order to allow persistent territorial GvG with player cities, terraforming, planting & breeding and all that stuff. And the most important thing: based on a player driven economy.Because i am fully convinced, that the human greed for wealth and ressources is the best working motivation for fighting others ever. A player driven economy would have a huge impact on the themeparks instant reward & loot system in PVE (events, heart quests, personal story). THIS is the main issue with implementing real open world PvP in a theme-park. Is such a "sandpark" impossible? I hope not.
The difference between GW2 and pretty much every other game is that they actually did make it feasible for the low and mid level people to play with the high level people. While you could reach this point in other games, ANet actually did it. This encourages participation from all players in the PvP.
It's not the same mindset as a game like Eve. Eve supports, even encourages ganking, unfair fights, theft of goods and services, etc. It makes for very interesting game play, but it's not what GW2 is about. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for any of that to show up.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The crucial word you used here is "Horizontal progression" almost all mmo's have vertical progression, and as I read your post it seems EVE has horizontal progression as well I didn't know that.
Horizontal progression is what makes this all possible in GW2, I understand what you're saying about the economy and wanting more sandbox style features and more indeph and complex economic systems like EVE but, I will tell you now that is most likely not gonna happen, GW2 is catering more to the casual players at first, but the more you play the more you realize, the game is easy to start and play but difficult to master, well for an EVE player such as yourself it might not seem that difficult to master at all, given the many systems you guys have to manage at the same time the UI alone in EVE is enough to give me headaches.
EVE, is a very unique game, I like it myself but it's just way to complex for me.
I don't like it when a game makes me feel like I have a second job, I want to have fun most of the time. On a different note I do like it that GW2 is implementing a gamewide auction house that has buy and sell orders just like EVE, with gamewide I mean what you put up for sale or buy counts for all the servers there are no separate server auction houses.
Some of my favorite GW2 features:
- Dodge mechanic.
- No downtime for maintainance, they update on the fly DL new build and continue playing or ignore it and update when you finish what you were doing. GW1 had 30 hours of downtime in 7 years, that is just plain incredible I know it's true, and still it is hard for me to believe.
- Down state mechanic
- No trinity (it was about time, the trinity gameplay is boring as hel
- everyone can heal and revive players.
- no quest hubs EVER.
- Dynamic events
- Spec your character the way you want and adapt it to your playstyle.
- Horizontal progression (duh)
- PVE and PVP are completely separate.
- Server guesting system (play on any server you want w/o making a new character)
- Combat system (weapon swap and skills tied to weapons)
- Man I could go on it's just to many, sure GW2 is not perfect but not calling it an innovative mmorpg is just crazy and short sighted.
Dont worry, i played all BWEs and i guess i know, how this game works as far as you can after such a short period of playing. And i surely know, it will not become ever a sandbox or even just a sandpark. I also think, that i understood Arenanets motivation, why they went this route. I have read their blogs about the games philosophy.
I also left EVE already in 2008 after playing it for 3 years intensively. EVE is not the holy grail. Like GW2 is not the holy grail. GW2 is better than your standard wow-clonepark so far and i already pre-purchased it. But thats it. It also brings a lot of innovation to the genre, but for me mainly in the PvE-department.
I just used EVE as an example, when i have read this very idiotic killerphrase "You either like ganking or you like GW2s WvW". There is much more versatility out there, if it comes to open world PvP and PvP-players, than this narrow-minded n00b, posting this phrase, could imagine.
And again, its all not about instances, fun, persistence or ganking. The differences are much stronger.
If PvP has no consequence for losing, it's fail. I don't understand why they don't make a server where these rules are different.
And what ever happened to the PK? Not the griefer or ganker, but the guy who chose to live on the outskirts because they couldn't enter cities. They were only few in number because the risk was very high and gameplay difficult. That made things interesting.
You really think GW2 5v5 battles wont be decided by who has the most OP class comp? You really think that each class will have an equal chance against every class? you may have equal gear / level but i guarantee you each class in not equal.
Go play Counterstrike then your argument is valid.
I recently returned to WoW through scroll of res, level my toon to 85 and grinded out all honor gear (2nd best pvp gear avail) and have been rolling people in Cata pvp gear (best in game) and have reached 2.1k rating in 1 piece of cata. so no its not all about gear, just because YOU need better gear to kill others and consider yourself a "top" player doesnt mean everyone does.
Someone who is playing WoW calling other games carebear...
What happened? Did you get steamrolled in Darkfall (or similar game) and went back to WoW to have some "open world pvp" you can actually manage?
Arenanet did describe their philosophy pretty detailed in the blogs. And you see, that they stick to their major design principles, when implementing the game or implementing changes during beta so far.
Its the right approach to start development with a well thought set of well defined principles. I am afraid most games dont have that at all. And i agree with most of these principles Arenanet has posted. But one:
"Never hurt the player"
This is a very honest approach, but not the best one. That doesnt mean that I vote for pvp full loot here. Its everywhere, also in PVE. Never hurt the player means always pamper them. It means no real consequences. And this is what they do so far. I miss the ups and downs, the frustration, the catastrophe, the big drama. Its all a bit like little kittys paradise.
An EVE dev once said to a player requesting some very casual features: "This is a hard an unforgiving world. If you like to have it warm and fluffy, Hello Kitty Online is for you".
Perhaps something in the middle should be the target.
Arenanet did describe their philosophy pretty detailed in the blogs. And you see, that they stick to their major design principles, when implementing the game or implementing changes during beta so far.
Its the right approach to start development with a well thought set of well defined principles. I am afraid most games have that at all. And i agree with most of these principles Arenanet has posted. But one:
"Never hurt the player"
This is a very honest approach, but not the best one. That doesnt mean that I vote for pvp full loot here. Its everywhere, also in PVE. Never hurt the player means always pamper them. It means no real consequences. And this is what they do so far. I miss the ups and downs, the frustration, the catastrophe, the big drama. Its all a bit like little kittys paradise.
An EVE dev once said to a player requesting some very casual features: "This is a hard an unforgiving world. If you like to have it warm and fluffy, Hello Kitty Online is for you".
Perhaps something in the middle should be the target.
I agree: If you're always winning, winning gets boring. And when it's boring, there is no point in playing. I think there should be some minor consequences, but nothing like full loot or even item drop upon death. I think something easily obtained should be taken, such as a certain percent of current gold you are carrying (So they can never take all of it and leave you broke.) or a debuff to EXP gain, or even a certain percent of your EXP for your current level. Stuff that doesn't give the chance of loosing something of great value I think would add a lot to the game in a positive way, despite it being a negative aspect of the game.
What it comes down to is that if there is no consequence for dying, then the effort required of the player will be insignificant, and therefor, the dificulty is nonexistant.
GW2 has the same system DAoC has. Best PvP system ever done. If you like PvP and you skip trying GW2, you will be missing the most epic PvP you have ever played.
I think it is, 'If you are always whining, companies ignore you'.
A.Net had issues before with hurting players and it was a tough lesson for both the players and A.Net. THe reason they don't want to 'hurt players' is because they want a decent experience for the players, not that they want a care bear game. We are the customer and we vote with our dollars. If the company doesn't do that, then they lose customers or they don't buy the product (think Duke Nukem Forever).
That said, I think it is admirable that A.Net put forth a philosophy for writing GW2 and stuck with it. It is the rare company that actually follows what they put on paper.
I think it is, 'If you are always whining, companies ignore you'.
A.Net had issues before with hurting players and it was a tough lesson for both the players and A.Net. THe reason they don't want to 'hurt players' is because they want a decent experience for the players, not that they want a care bear game. We are the customer and we vote with our dollars. If the company doesn't do that, then they lose customers or they don't buy the product (think Duke Nukem Forever).
That said, I think it is admirable that A.Net put forth a philosophy for writing GW2 and stuck with it. It is the rare company that actually follows what they put on paper.
While you contradict yourself within the first 3 sentences, I agree that A.Net did a very smart thing by setting basic principles for what they were wanting to accomplish right from the start. And indeed, very admirable that they are sticking to it.
This is why, despite disagreeing with this specific guideline in thier principles, I know they will never add death penalties of any kind.
You really think GW2 5v5 battles wont be decided by who has the most OP class comp? You really think that each class will have an equal chance against every class? you may have equal gear / level but i guarantee you each class in not equal.
Go play Counterstrike then your argument is valid.
I recently returned to WoW through scroll of res, level my toon to 85 and grinded out all honor gear (2nd best pvp gear avail) and have been rolling people in Cata pvp gear (best in game) and have reached 2.1k rating in 1 piece of cata. so no its not all about gear, just because YOU need better gear to kill others and consider yourself a "top" player doesnt mean everyone does.
Someone who is playing WoW calling other games carebear...
What happened? Did you get steamrolled in Darkfall (or similar game) and went back to WoW to have some "open world pvp" you can actually manage?
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W v W fixes the issue of a high level atacking a low level as well, and it's part of the thrill now in GW2, because the stats are boosted for all characters to lv 80, though your skills stay at your current lv so you do have a chance.
in most mmorpg's if a low level is jumped there's almost no way for him to retaliate that is the issue most didn't like and is what ruins open world PVP. in GW2 this ambushing is still present and it's fun and exciting because of the way W v W has been designed. I myself will play W v W exclusively from lv1 on one of my characters.
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I guess we are discussing about the wrong issue here. As already explained above, ganking in WvW is very possible. You like to gank? No problem, get a group and jump on single sheeps or smaller groups. Problem solved. This is the nature of unbalanced PvP. And WvW is unablanced PvP. There is also sPvP in GW2. This is different. I dont like sPvP, btw. No sports please.
Lets compare an open world like EVE with WvW. In EVE people do very often build gangs of about 10-20 people, roam around and kill players. Or they run to survive, if they meet a bigger fleet. Mostly they kill single players or smaller groups. Are these gankers? Are they bad players? Well, you can do that in WvW as well. Build a group, roam around and kill smaller groups and single players.
The difference is, why do you roam and kill? Why did i participate in EVE gangs? I did participate, because
- i did disturb the economy of my hostile neighbour this way
- i did demotivate my hostile neighbour with massive ganking
- i did disturb processes of my hostile neighbour
- ...and so on ... you got the picture, what my motivation is.
Of course there are other fights, too. Home defense and territorial fleet battles are also very popular beside roaming gangs. Btw, this lonesome wolf ganking sheeps is pretty much dead in EVE nowadays. They just get ganked too often themselves. But lets focus on roaming groups.
Can you do that in WvW? I guess yes. You can disturb the enemies processes and economy via attacking the support lines. And you can gank as hell to demotivate the enemies forces.
I never killed people just for the sake of fun. What would Sigmund Freud say about people killing for fun? Gankers do kill people for fun. And people who love to kill for fun, complain about gankers. Its strange, isnt it? However, you can kill people just for fun in EVE as you can in WvW.
So its hard to tell the difference between EVE and WvW. Both have killing for a reason, both have killing for fun, both have massive ganking. People, who love killing for fun as well as pure gankers - which have fun killing, too - will see no big difference between EVE and WvW.
The difference is for people, who are killing for a reason. There are much more economical, political and social reasons to kill people in EVE. Because a sandbox is much more complex in that department. In a theme-park like GW2 the reasons are mostly artificial. And dev-made content which gives you reasons is limited. For example there are caravans you may disturb, in order to destabilize enemies processes. In a sandbox there are tons of things you can do, to disturb your enemies complex economy. Some 0.0-wars in EVE where won in Jita without any shot, btw.
So my point is, this discussions goes into the wrong direction. Its not about ganking, fun, instances or persistance. All that does not matter. Both exist in both games in a certain way. What matters are, what reasons do i have to fight and what type of achievements are possible. And HERE classic open world PvP and GW2s WvW are very different.
PS: I never played a pure ganker in EVE and other PvP-games. But i guess i should start to do that in WvW. Just for the sake of fun. Why? Because its a good reason, and there are not so many other non-artificial reasons to kill stuff in WvW. Unfortunately i focused on PVE during the BWEs and visited WvW just for a few hours. However, i should try a ganker this time. Actually GW2 sounds like gankers paradise to me. No risk, just fun
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
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weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
UsulDaNeriak Very nice well thought out post, very insgithful and quite a good read Kudos.
just one thing though, You did touch on a subject we haven't discussed which is also a very good point on your part.
why do people kill other players ? what is the incentive ?
I think this is also why almost all current open world PVP devolves into a ganking and griefing for fun paradise
simply because there are no benefits whatsoever to do proper open world pvp, like you said in EVE there's always a more complex reason or an economically driven reason to do it, kudos to EVE for having meaningfull open world PVP probably one of the few games that has meaning to it.
the primary issue is the difference between for example X game open world PVP and GW2 W v W PVP.
scenario:
X game, you are lv30, you're questing, and you get jumped by a lv50 there's no way in hell you have a sliver of a chance of beating him. This is the kind of open world PVP in most mmo's to date and most people don't enjoy it, do you know of any other open world PVP game besides EVE, that has any sort of meaningful open world PVP ? the answer is most likely NO, why, simple, the lack of purpose and incentives to do meaningful open world PVP is none existant, and so it devolves into a gankers, griefers paradise. Few months later the game is almost desolate, noone is playing anymore and only the PVE servers are decently populated.
GW2, you are in W v W and you're lv30, you're questing and you get jumped by a lv80, here's the big difference, even though he is max lv you are still able to put up a decent fight, (if you have a high enough skill level as a player) simply because of the way W v W has been designed with stat boost to lv 80 your skills remain at your current lv though. This is one of the many reasons why so many people are excited about GW2 and the philosophy behind their W v W design, they kept the adrenaline rush, the sense of danger while still keeping the ganking, ambushing style of gameplay viable and giving you meaningful, impactful reasons to do so, the best part is the ganker and the the one being ganked are both having fun. Now that is proper PVP to me.
In GW2 W v W PVP, there's also always a reason to try and disrupt your enemies economy, infrastructure and supply lines.
it's all about the world bonuses that are awarded to the winning server, and those are serverwide.
As you can see it is all about having a fighting chance even if you are lower lv, not just getting trashed around.
Angry Joe's Guild Wars 2 video review
Aerowyn's Video Compilation of ALL things Guild Wars 2
@Taugrim explains why the fanbois don't get it
I see the difference for a mid-level guy soloing PVE-content in the PvP-zone, who is attacked by a lvl 80. But I guess, you can reach this in some open world games, too. With a broad horizontal and lateral progression like in EVE, you better get some skills, which allows you to escape better and you prepare for escape always by several techniques. And the difference between a 30 Mio SP player and a 80 Mio SP player in EVE is not as dramatic like Lvl 30 vs lvl 80 in DF/MO or even in this harmonized GW2 WvW. I just see, that avoiding to get ganked is more casual in GW2.
And imho, the solo-ganker is pretty seldom in EVE, becuase its very frustrating and doesnt make so much sense. But i fully agree, that there are tons of cheap indie games out there where solo-ganking is easy and enjoyable for a ganker. And you are fully right, that they often got no other complex features to keep PVPers busy with other stuff than killing sheeps.
Of course there is always a reason to disrupt your enemies economy in WvW. But the economy in WvW is just a tiny minigame compared to a full blown player driven economy like in EVE. So there are much more options, how to attack an enemies economy and processes.
I know that its all about world bonusses. Honestly, for me thats a pretty lame achievement. And again, I miss the many other types of achievements i learned to love in EVE.
I also see, that Arenanet did try to implement some more even chances in 1v1 fight in open world. I simply avoid such fights. If a game supports it, thats not a big deal. Of course, its not casual. And btw, if you are tired of gankers killing lowlevels, just avoid the PvP-zones until you are maxlevel or skilled enough. Doesnt take too long nowadays. Of course a game needs a clear separation of PvP and huge fully safe PvE zones. DF and MO dont have that. And thats the major fault of nearly all Open World Games. Some turrets near cities is not enough space. And EVE should get fully rid of highsec-ganking. Even if i myself was never stupid enough to get ganked in the Empire and dont care for myself. But i care for the sheeps. We need these sheeps for a healthy population. We should not be able to kill them. We just kill our game this way.
So Arenanets approach to decrease the impact of ganking is very honest, and i fully support it. But is this the only way, to do so? I guess no. Is WvW the Holy Grail of Open World PvP and should all coming games go this route? HELL NO! There are better ways to implement it. Its just more effort for the devs and less casual for the players.
I would be very happy, with GW2s WvW as it is with bumping player level and such. If GW2s WvW would just be much bigger; very very much bigger. In order to allow persistent territorial GvG with player cities, terraforming, planting & breeding and all that stuff. And the most important thing: based on a player driven economy.Because i am fully convinced, that the human greed for wealth and ressources is the best working motivation for fighting others ever. A player driven economy would have a huge impact on the themeparks instant reward & loot system in PVE (events, heart quests, personal story). THIS is the main issue with implementing real open world PvP in a theme-park. Is such a "sandpark" impossible? I hope not.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
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I would be very happy, with GW2s WvW as it is with bumping player level and such. If GW2s WvW would just be much bigger; very very much bigger. In order to allow persistent territorial GvG with player cities, terraforming, planting & breeding and all that stuff. And the most important thing: based on a player driven economy.Because i am fully convinced, that the human greed for wealth and ressources is the best working motivation for fighting others ever. A player driven economy would have a huge impact on the themeparks instant reward & loot system in PVE (events, heart quests, personal story). THIS is the main issue with implementing real open world PvP in a theme-park. Is such a "sandpark" impossible? I hope not.
The difference between GW2 and pretty much every other game is that they actually did make it feasible for the low and mid level people to play with the high level people. While you could reach this point in other games, ANet actually did it. This encourages participation from all players in the PvP.
It's not the same mindset as a game like Eve. Eve supports, even encourages ganking, unfair fights, theft of goods and services, etc. It makes for very interesting game play, but it's not what GW2 is about. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for any of that to show up.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
UsulDaNeriak
The crucial word you used here is "Horizontal progression" almost all mmo's have vertical progression, and as I read your post it seems EVE has horizontal progression as well I didn't know that.
Horizontal progression is what makes this all possible in GW2, I understand what you're saying about the economy and wanting more sandbox style features and more indeph and complex economic systems like EVE but, I will tell you now that is most likely not gonna happen, GW2 is catering more to the casual players at first, but the more you play the more you realize, the game is easy to start and play but difficult to master, well for an EVE player such as yourself it might not seem that difficult to master at all, given the many systems you guys have to manage at the same time the UI alone in EVE is enough to give me headaches.
EVE, is a very unique game, I like it myself but it's just way to complex for me.
I don't like it when a game makes me feel like I have a second job, I want to have fun most of the time. On a different note I do like it that GW2 is implementing a gamewide auction house that has buy and sell orders just like EVE, with gamewide I mean what you put up for sale or buy counts for all the servers there are no separate server auction houses.
Some of my favorite GW2 features:
- Dodge mechanic.
- No downtime for maintainance, they update on the fly DL new build and continue playing or ignore it and update when you finish what you were doing. GW1 had 30 hours of downtime in 7 years, that is just plain incredible I know it's true, and still it is hard for me to believe.
- Down state mechanic
- No trinity (it was about time, the trinity gameplay is boring as hel
- everyone can heal and revive players.
- no quest hubs EVER.
- Dynamic events
- Spec your character the way you want and adapt it to your playstyle.
- Horizontal progression (duh)
- PVE and PVP are completely separate.
- Server guesting system (play on any server you want w/o making a new character)
- Combat system (weapon swap and skills tied to weapons)
- Man I could go on it's just to many, sure GW2 is not perfect but not calling it an innovative mmorpg is just crazy and short sighted.
Angry Joe's Guild Wars 2 video review
Aerowyn's Video Compilation of ALL things Guild Wars 2
@Taugrim explains why the fanbois don't get it
Dont worry, i played all BWEs and i guess i know, how this game works as far as you can after such a short period of playing. And i surely know, it will not become ever a sandbox or even just a sandpark. I also think, that i understood Arenanets motivation, why they went this route. I have read their blogs about the games philosophy.
I also left EVE already in 2008 after playing it for 3 years intensively. EVE is not the holy grail. Like GW2 is not the holy grail. GW2 is better than your standard wow-clonepark so far and i already pre-purchased it. But thats it. It also brings a lot of innovation to the genre, but for me mainly in the PvE-department.
I just used EVE as an example, when i have read this very idiotic killerphrase "You either like ganking or you like GW2s WvW". There is much more versatility out there, if it comes to open world PvP and PvP-players, than this narrow-minded n00b, posting this phrase, could imagine.
And again, its all not about instances, fun, persistence or ganking. The differences are much stronger.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
If PvP has no consequence for losing, it's fail. I don't understand why they don't make a server where these rules are different.
And what ever happened to the PK? Not the griefer or ganker, but the guy who chose to live on the outskirts because they couldn't enter cities. They were only few in number because the risk was very high and gameplay difficult. That made things interesting.
Someone who is playing WoW calling other games carebear...
What happened? Did you get steamrolled in Darkfall (or similar game) and went back to WoW to have some "open world pvp" you can actually manage?
Arenanet did describe their philosophy pretty detailed in the blogs. And you see, that they stick to their major design principles, when implementing the game or implementing changes during beta so far.
Its the right approach to start development with a well thought set of well defined principles. I am afraid most games dont have that at all. And i agree with most of these principles Arenanet has posted. But one:
"Never hurt the player"
This is a very honest approach, but not the best one. That doesnt mean that I vote for pvp full loot here. Its everywhere, also in PVE. Never hurt the player means always pamper them. It means no real consequences. And this is what they do so far. I miss the ups and downs, the frustration, the catastrophe, the big drama. Its all a bit like little kittys paradise.
An EVE dev once said to a player requesting some very casual features: "This is a hard an unforgiving world. If you like to have it warm and fluffy, Hello Kitty Online is for you".
Perhaps something in the middle should be the target.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
I agree: If you're always winning, winning gets boring. And when it's boring, there is no point in playing. I think there should be some minor consequences, but nothing like full loot or even item drop upon death. I think something easily obtained should be taken, such as a certain percent of current gold you are carrying (So they can never take all of it and leave you broke.) or a debuff to EXP gain, or even a certain percent of your EXP for your current level. Stuff that doesn't give the chance of loosing something of great value I think would add a lot to the game in a positive way, despite it being a negative aspect of the game.
What it comes down to is that if there is no consequence for dying, then the effort required of the player will be insignificant, and therefor, the dificulty is nonexistant.
GW2 has the same system DAoC has. Best PvP system ever done. If you like PvP and you skip trying GW2, you will be missing the most epic PvP you have ever played.
I think it is, 'If you are always whining, companies ignore you'.
A.Net had issues before with hurting players and it was a tough lesson for both the players and A.Net. THe reason they don't want to 'hurt players' is because they want a decent experience for the players, not that they want a care bear game. We are the customer and we vote with our dollars. If the company doesn't do that, then they lose customers or they don't buy the product (think Duke Nukem Forever).
That said, I think it is admirable that A.Net put forth a philosophy for writing GW2 and stuck with it. It is the rare company that actually follows what they put on paper.
While you contradict yourself within the first 3 sentences, I agree that A.Net did a very smart thing by setting basic principles for what they were wanting to accomplish right from the start. And indeed, very admirable that they are sticking to it.
This is why, despite disagreeing with this specific guideline in thier principles, I know they will never add death penalties of any kind.
LOL everbody who plays WoW is below me!