I've looked all over and cannot really find an exact answer to this.
I've seen this "WvWvW" stuff, but that still looks instanced to me.
I'm talking about open world pvp. I'm guessing guild wars 2 doesn't have it?
If not, I'll probably pass on this one.. tired of instanced PVP games.
DAoC didnt have Open World PvP and it is considered to be the greatest PvP game ever made. If you have this overwhelming urge or need to gank lowbies, or kill unsuspected "carebears" then leave now, this isnt the game for you.
Daoc had open world pvp, it had frontiers that were OPEN TO ALL AND HAD PVP. pvp that is in the open world. Froentiers open world == check, pvp == check .
Oh check this out
"
“The other thing that I think is important and this is not a direct answer, but we have World vs. World PvP in Guild Wars 2. I think that will impact PvE as well. Which is your server shard matched up against two other servers in open world PvP. If you like Dark Age of Camelot, this is, in our minds the next evolution of that. It is something that really drove community and you care about what you are doing on a PVE and PvP side. You care about the people on the server.” – Colin Johansen, Lead Content Designer"
Oh snap anet did call it open world .. i knew it. i so knew it.
Ps you all can see who doing the work here and understands reality, not what i thinkism is right.
If DAoC is "open world", so is GW2. It is literally the same thing. You have a PvE side of the game, and you have a PvP side of the game. Both areas anyone can join/leave freely, with nothing taken against them. So to argue that GW2 is instanced in WvW, and DAoC is open world, describe to me where that difference is? And yes, i currently play DAoC.
Read the thread gw2 has population caps on its pvp 300 per side. = not open world, becuase not anyone can enter, becuase past a x number of players its CLOSED.
DAoC has a server cap as well, we just rarely ever touch it. Is DAoC open world?
No , its pretty simple.
Instance = population capped zone/area - many games use these to have multiple zones of the same pve only area to control for population (5-15-20 - 100 - 200 - 300). Its a cap on a area that doesn't allow people in game to enter past a defined population.
Open world = no population cap. Allows as many people that can fit into a zone/area. Thhe ZONE/AREA/MAP has no population cap its OPEN not CLOSED (or closed after x number of people fill it).
Neither of these preclude epicness, massive multiplayer, or anything, besides defined population caps. Its simple, and may be positive or negitive for gw2, no one at this juncture can tell you.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Instance = population capped zone/area - many games use these to have multiple zones of the same pve only area to control for population (5-15-20 - 100 - 200 - 300). Its a cap on a area that doesn't allow people in game to enter past a defined population.
Open world = no population cap. Allows as many people that can fit into a zone/area. Thhe ZONE/AREA/MAP has no population cap its OPEN not CLOSED (or closed after x number of people fill it).
No, that is a zone.
An instance is a temprary zone, as I explained in detail on the last page. Instances are locked from start.
I love how people think open world pvp is the answer to everything. It doesnt add a variety, it add the unexpected, because if there is open world pvp, you expect to be attacked some where. It turns more into annoyance and makes little sense in any game world.
Even if you have two factions in bitter war, why are enemies roaming freely through country sides. If its war, there are tactics and strategies. Not a bunch of hoodlums running around killing folk randomly. Outside of the Talban, any court would courtmarshal such acts.
Now, paste this on any world where there's this massive evil plauging the owrld, and the idea of the most sentient races having large scale war with no rules or respect for the other side while dragons destroy everything sounds silly.
Of course, the mists answers that. It's a zone, it's pvp and it makes sense in the context of its own story.
Why in the world are you comparing a fantasy medieval game world to the real world of today? Your comparison doesn't come close to explaining away anything about Open PVP. PVP in such a setting is far more reminiscent of murderers, bandits, pirates and the like, which plagued lawless areas in older times than it is of modern day armies.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I love how people think open world pvp is the answer to everything. It doesnt add a variety, it add the unexpected, because if there is open world pvp, you expect to be attacked some where. It turns more into annoyance and makes little sense in any game world.
Even if you have two factions in bitter war, why are enemies roaming freely through country sides. If its war, there are tactics and strategies. Not a bunch of hoodlums running around killing folk randomly. Outside of the Talban, any court would courtmarshal such acts.
Now, paste this on any world where there's this massive evil plauging the owrld, and the idea of the most sentient races having large scale war with no rules or respect for the other side while dragons destroy everything sounds silly.
Of course, the mists answers that. It's a zone, it's pvp and it makes sense in the context of its own story.
Open world PvP has never worked regardless of what anyone thinks. At no time in the history of this so called World PvP has it resulted in anything other then glorified gankfests.
Yea things like Tarren Mill and Southshore or Blackrock mountain were fun but because it was organized not because you had the ability to kill anyone, anywhere. For the most part those sorts of fun open world encounters will be found in Zones specifically set up for PvP such as in the case of WvW in GW2. Open World PvP i nthe form of a WoW PvP servers result in nothign less then griefing.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
actually DAoC didn't have open world pvp, that was one thing some people wanted from it. They wanted the ability to invade and raid. But the idea never really took, too many pve'ers that were scared it would interrupt their normal leveling and questing.
Mordred...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
None of you ever played UO apparently.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
I've looked all over and cannot really find an exact answer to this.
I've seen this "WvWvW" stuff, but that still looks instanced to me.
I'm talking about open world pvp. I'm guessing guild wars 2 doesn't have it?
If not, I'll probably pass on this one.. tired of instanced PVP games.
DAoC didnt have Open World PvP and it is considered to be the greatest PvP game ever made. If you have this overwhelming urge or need to gank lowbies, or kill unsuspected "carebears" then leave now, this isnt the game for you.
Daoc had open world pvp, it had frontiers that were OPEN TO ALL AND HAD PVP. pvp that is in the open world. Froentiers open world == check, pvp == check .
Oh check this out
"
“The other thing that I think is important and this is not a direct answer, but we have World vs. World PvP in Guild Wars 2. I think that will impact PvE as well. Which is your server shard matched up against two other servers in open world PvP. If you like Dark Age of Camelot, this is, in our minds the next evolution of that. It is something that really drove community and you care about what you are doing on a PVE and PvP side. You care about the people on the server.” – Colin Johansen, Lead Content Designer"
Oh snap anet did call it open world .. i knew it. i so knew it.
Ps you all can see who doing the work here and understands reality, not what i thinkism is right.
If DAoC is "open world", so is GW2. It is literally the same thing. You have a PvE side of the game, and you have a PvP side of the game. Both areas anyone can join/leave freely, with nothing taken against them. So to argue that GW2 is instanced in WvW, and DAoC is open world, describe to me where that difference is? And yes, i currently play DAoC.
Read the thread gw2 has population caps on its pvp 300 per side. = not open world, becuase not anyone can enter, becuase past a x number of players its CLOSED.
DAoC has a server cap as well, we just rarely ever touch it. Is DAoC open world?
No , its pretty simple.
Instance = population capped zone/area - many games use these to have multiple zones of the same pve only area to control for population (5-15-20 - 100 - 200 - 300). Its a cap on a area that doesn't allow people in game to enter past a defined population.
Open world = no population cap. Allows as many people that can fit into a zone/area. Thhe ZONE/AREA/MAP has no population cap its OPEN not CLOSED (or closed after x number of people fill it).
Neither of these preclude epicness, massive multiplayer, or anything, besides defined population caps. Its simple, and may be positive or negitive for gw2, no one at this juncture can tell you.
Sorry, i'm just confused. i understand your point but fail to see the difference between DAoC to GW2. When ywain cluster first happened on DAoC we hit server cap multiple times, to many people wanting to play. Mythic pushed the servers and added more slots, it got tot the point to where we didn't hit cap, the cap exceeded the number of players. Sure GW2 might at first have that problem, but give them time to fix server balancing and population balancing, fine-tune their servers and it should exceed the number of players that are desiring to go into WvW. Same thing in DAoC. ANet isn't restricting the population on purpose, they are starting small and will go bigger.
There isn't going to be server A/B/C warzone 1, then when it hits pop cap they will make a second zone.... That is what i'm failing to see. there wont be "shards". there is only one, and the design is to get as many people in as possible, at first we will hit cap, but once they raise the server caps, or even once more people focus on PvE or whatever, we won't come close to cap. therefore it won't be instanced. There is one area, everyone has to share. They will make population caps on the servers to control this, so that some servers don't have 3x the cap limit trying to get into WvW, while another server barely stuggles to get half their cap filled.
If i'm wrong correct me, and please provide a link, but it isn't instanced lol. not when comparing to DAoC and it is open world. Not trying to start an argument, or spread mis information, but the system is so much like DAoC i find it hard to claim one open world and the other not.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Open world PvP has never worked regardless of what anyone thinks. At no time in the history of this so called World PvP has it resulted in anything other then glorified gankfests.
Yea things like Tarren Mill and Southshore or Blackrock mountain were fun but because it was organized not because you had the ability to kill anyone, anywhere. For the most part those sorts of fun open world encounters will be found in Zones specifically set up for PvP such as in the case of WvW in GW2. Open World PvP i nthe form of a WoW PvP servers result in nothign less then griefing.
Bullocks. Something you didn't care for =/= never working? The only examples you can think of is WOW, and for world PVP? It worked great in SWG, AC, UO, EVE, shadowbane and others. The key factor is whether you like that style of PVP or not.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Instance = population capped zone/area - many games use these to have multiple zones of the same pve only area to control for population (5-15-20 - 100 - 200 - 300). Its a cap on a area that doesn't allow people in game to enter past a defined population.
Open world = no population cap. Allows as many people that can fit into a zone/area. Thhe ZONE/AREA/MAP has no population cap its OPEN not CLOSED (or closed after x number of people fill it).
Neither of these preclude epicness, massive multiplayer, or anything, besides defined population caps. Its simple, and may be positive or negitive for gw2, no one at this juncture can tell you.
Then no area of GW2 is Open World because it all has a population cap.
Your creating new definitions for Instance and Open World. An Instance is an area of the game that copies itself based on a group basis. It creates Instances of itself when a group chooses to enter the area, if nobody is in the area than it ceases to exist.
WvW will exists as a Zone even when nobody is there, it is the same Zone for every single person on that server, three servers in fact share the same Zone. The fact that it has a technical limitation on the number of people does not make it an Instance.
Instance = population capped zone/area - many games use these to have multiple zones of the same pve only area to control for population (5-15-20 - 100 - 200 - 300). Its a cap on a area that doesn't allow people in game to enter past a defined population.
Open world = no population cap. Allows as many people that can fit into a zone/area. Thhe ZONE/AREA/MAP has no population cap its OPEN not CLOSED (or closed after x number of people fill it).
No, that is a zone.
An instance is a temprary zone, as I explained in detail on the last page. Instances are locked from start.
Read my last post.
the above is correct
anyone can enter a zone, instances are usually locked to most.
then there's nstances of zones which is something else
Currently playing- SWG PreCU & GW 2 Have tried WoW, AoC, & Vanguard, SWG:NGE, GW, LOTRO & SWTOR Best MMO: SWG Worst MMO: SWTOR
actually DAoC didn't have open world pvp, that was one thing some people wanted from it. They wanted the ability to invade and raid. But the idea never really took, too many pve'ers that were scared it would interrupt their normal leveling and questing.
I played from the beginning of DAOC up til a few months after New Frontiers came out, and there was a very small amount of people that actually wanted what you're talking about. That's why there was Mordred and Andred for those people and that's why there was no need for more than than that. Not a whole lot of people wanted that type of pvp. If they had, clearly there would have been more servers like Mordred added and outnumbered the regular servers.
Open world PvP has never worked regardless of what anyone thinks. At no time in the history of this so called World PvP has it resulted in anything other then glorified gankfests.
Someone should tell Eve Online devs that open world pvp doesn't work, and their whole game is a sham because this guy said so.
Yea things like Tarren Mill and Southshore or Blackrock mountain were fun but because it was organized not because you had the ability to kill anyone, anywhere.
Wait, you just said it has never worked couple lines ago, now you are saying it worked because it was organized in an open world
For the most part those sorts of fun open world encounters will be found in Zones specifically set up for PvP such as in the case of WvW in GW2. Open World PvP i nthe form of a WoW PvP servers result in nothign less then griefing.
Onh I see, it didn't work before Arenanet, but because GW2 exists, NOW it works, only in a instance, thats not really an instance but a zone, but not really a zone more like an open world with a population cap, but only open for 3 realms, and for 2 weeks, then it gets reset with new contendors, BUT DONT CALL IT AN INSTANCE! Even with its 2 week limit and population cap, that may or MAY NOY get upped according to facts, and by facts i mean some random mmorpg.com forum poster
There is no point to try to reason with the open world PvP crowd. They will never be happy unless they have free for all, full loot gankfest. This PvP crowd wants to gank and grief the PvE crowd. They will come up with the most ridiculous and superfluous reasons to defend this type of PvP like danger, dynamic world etc.
But all they want is a free for all full loot gankfest. Ganking, Griefing and L33t mad pvp skills are the three pillars of this type of PvP.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I noticed most of the good open world pvp games are sandboxes...
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
There is no point to try to reason with the open world PvP crowd. They will never be happy unless they have free for all, full loot gankfest. This PvP crowd wants to gank and grief the PvE crowd. They will come up with the most ridiculous and superfluous reasons to defend this type of PvP like danger, dynamic world etc.
But all they want is a free for all full loot gankfest. Ganking, Griefing and L33t mad pvp skills are the three pillars of this type of PvP.
I don't see people trying to reason, I see nothing but a bunch of stereotypes and false pretense being thrown around.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I noticed most of the good open world pvp games are sandboxes...
You should also note that there are quite a few games like that on the market or coming out and even then, somewhat all games that are coming out get butchered on the forums for not having those features.
Like i said before, GW2 gives me some features other games won't and vice-versa, that's why i plan on playing either Archage or Planetside 2 along side GW2.
I noticed most of the good open world pvp games are sandboxes...
They were, I think without it the idea loses something, you need the support game as well for the non-combatants. Otherwise they feel they're the target.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I've looked all over and cannot really find an exact answer to this.
I've seen this "WvWvW" stuff, but that still looks instanced to me.
I'm talking about open world pvp. I'm guessing guild wars 2 doesn't have it?
If not, I'll probably pass on this one.. tired of instanced PVP games.
Funny that you pass on GW2 while you play FFXI that have worse PvP instanced EVER in mmo's.
PvP world in GW2 is maybe instanced but its HUGE and give feeling its a game world of its own, i realy don't understand why you would pass this on but play a ANTI PvP mmorpg FFXI?
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
I've yet to see anyone implement it in such a way that its fun, and doesn't make people /slit wrists and come to the forums crying about it.
Then again, the general demography for MMO's has changed since when I was playing UO.. its the popular thing to do now.. my cousin plays, my grandma plays, my aunt plays.. my boss plays...
before it was just me, and the circle of people who liked this sort of thing, now an MMO is almost at the same level as a FPS, with the community to match.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Many would disagree with that. Many liked UO when it was full of gankers and those who hunted them down.
That's why I also still played on Siege Perilous too! Plenty of that going around too.
And that's also not to say the PvP on Felucca was ever truly "fair" and gank free either
I'm guilty as charged of occasionally gate camping myself.
I'm just going on past things I read, I didn't start MMO's until DAOC, so I really don't know, my UO EXP was about two weeks lol, while I waited for my GFX card to come so i could play DAOC .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
No , its pretty simple.
Instance = population capped zone/area - many games use these to have multiple zones of the same pve only area to control for population (5-15-20 - 100 - 200 - 300). Its a cap on a area that doesn't allow people in game to enter past a defined population.
Open world = no population cap. Allows as many people that can fit into a zone/area. Thhe ZONE/AREA/MAP has no population cap its OPEN not CLOSED (or closed after x number of people fill it).
Neither of these preclude epicness, massive multiplayer, or anything, besides defined population caps. Its simple, and may be positive or negitive for gw2, no one at this juncture can tell you.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
No, that is a zone.
An instance is a temprary zone, as I explained in detail on the last page. Instances are locked from start.
Read my last post.
Why in the world are you comparing a fantasy medieval game world to the real world of today? Your comparison doesn't come close to explaining away anything about Open PVP. PVP in such a setting is far more reminiscent of murderers, bandits, pirates and the like, which plagued lawless areas in older times than it is of modern day armies.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Open world PvP has never worked regardless of what anyone thinks. At no time in the history of this so called World PvP has it resulted in anything other then glorified gankfests.
Yea things like Tarren Mill and Southshore or Blackrock mountain were fun but because it was organized not because you had the ability to kill anyone, anywhere. For the most part those sorts of fun open world encounters will be found in Zones specifically set up for PvP such as in the case of WvW in GW2. Open World PvP i nthe form of a WoW PvP servers result in nothign less then griefing.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
None of you ever played UO apparently.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
For those who just want the short version of this thread:
No, gw2 does not have Open World PVP. It has Open Realm PvP.
1 Large instance with a 2 week lifespan, locked into 3 participating realms only.
Sorry, i'm just confused. i understand your point but fail to see the difference between DAoC to GW2. When ywain cluster first happened on DAoC we hit server cap multiple times, to many people wanting to play. Mythic pushed the servers and added more slots, it got tot the point to where we didn't hit cap, the cap exceeded the number of players. Sure GW2 might at first have that problem, but give them time to fix server balancing and population balancing, fine-tune their servers and it should exceed the number of players that are desiring to go into WvW. Same thing in DAoC. ANet isn't restricting the population on purpose, they are starting small and will go bigger.
There isn't going to be server A/B/C warzone 1, then when it hits pop cap they will make a second zone.... That is what i'm failing to see. there wont be "shards". there is only one, and the design is to get as many people in as possible, at first we will hit cap, but once they raise the server caps, or even once more people focus on PvE or whatever, we won't come close to cap. therefore it won't be instanced. There is one area, everyone has to share. They will make population caps on the servers to control this, so that some servers don't have 3x the cap limit trying to get into WvW, while another server barely stuggles to get half their cap filled.
If i'm wrong correct me, and please provide a link, but it isn't instanced lol. not when comparing to DAoC and it is open world. Not trying to start an argument, or spread mis information, but the system is so much like DAoC i find it hard to claim one open world and the other not.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Bullocks. Something you didn't care for =/= never working? The only examples you can think of is WOW, and for world PVP? It worked great in SWG, AC, UO, EVE, shadowbane and others. The key factor is whether you like that style of PVP or not.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm starting to think many regulars in this sub-section have only played WOW and GW1.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
UO PvP was at its absolute best after the Trammel / Felucca split when they introduced the 4-way Factions warfare and territorial control mechanics.
Council of Mages FTW!
I still also kept playing on Siege Perilous though to get my fill of the more "hardcore" non-consensual PvP fun.
Then no area of GW2 is Open World because it all has a population cap.
Your creating new definitions for Instance and Open World. An Instance is an area of the game that copies itself based on a group basis. It creates Instances of itself when a group chooses to enter the area, if nobody is in the area than it ceases to exist.
WvW will exists as a Zone even when nobody is there, it is the same Zone for every single person on that server, three servers in fact share the same Zone. The fact that it has a technical limitation on the number of people does not make it an Instance.
the above is correct
anyone can enter a zone, instances are usually locked to most.
then there's nstances of zones which is something else
Currently playing- SWG PreCU & GW 2
Have tried WoW, AoC, & Vanguard, SWG:NGE, GW, LOTRO & SWTOR
Best MMO: SWG
Worst MMO: SWTOR
Many would disagree with that. Many liked UO when it was full of gankers and those who hunted them down.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I played from the beginning of DAOC up til a few months after New Frontiers came out, and there was a very small amount of people that actually wanted what you're talking about. That's why there was Mordred and Andred for those people and that's why there was no need for more than than that. Not a whole lot of people wanted that type of pvp. If they had, clearly there would have been more servers like Mordred added and outnumbered the regular servers.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
There is no point to try to reason with the open world PvP crowd. They will never be happy unless they have free for all, full loot gankfest. This PvP crowd wants to gank and grief the PvE crowd. They will come up with the most ridiculous and superfluous reasons to defend this type of PvP like danger, dynamic world etc.
But all they want is a free for all full loot gankfest. Ganking, Griefing and L33t mad pvp skills are the three pillars of this type of PvP.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
That's why I also still played on Siege Perilous too! Plenty of that going around too.
And that's also not to say the PvP on Felucca was ever truly "fair" and gank free either
I'm guilty as charged of occasionally gate camping myself.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I don't see people trying to reason, I see nothing but a bunch of stereotypes and false pretense being thrown around.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You should also note that there are quite a few games like that on the market or coming out and even then, somewhat all games that are coming out get butchered on the forums for not having those features.
Like i said before, GW2 gives me some features other games won't and vice-versa, that's why i plan on playing either Archage or Planetside 2 along side GW2.
They were, I think without it the idea loses something, you need the support game as well for the non-combatants. Otherwise they feel they're the target.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Funny that you pass on GW2 while you play FFXI that have worse PvP instanced EVER in mmo's.
PvP world in GW2 is maybe instanced but its HUGE and give feeling its a game world of its own, i realy don't understand why you would pass this on but play a ANTI PvP mmorpg FFXI?
I've yet to see anyone implement it in such a way that its fun, and doesn't make people /slit wrists and come to the forums crying about it.
Then again, the general demography for MMO's has changed since when I was playing UO.. its the popular thing to do now.. my cousin plays, my grandma plays, my aunt plays.. my boss plays...
before it was just me, and the circle of people who liked this sort of thing, now an MMO is almost at the same level as a FPS, with the community to match.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
I'm just going on past things I read, I didn't start MMO's until DAOC, so I really don't know, my UO EXP was about two weeks lol, while I waited for my GFX card to come so i could play DAOC
.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson