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Your right. it isn't pay to win. It's....

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  • timeraidertimeraider Member UncommonPosts: 865

    ok so..your complaining about keys you can buy...that also drop on mobs and you get at certain queusts to and even if you open the chest it gives you some temp. buffs and some pots that changes you into animals

    all hail the trollking

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  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505

    What did the OP expect? at the end of the day they have to make money...

     

    If there is no monthly sub then they have no make cash by selling stuff in their shop... so there has to be stuff in the shop that people will want and need.. it does not have to be items that will make a person win or anything but things people will want.. otherwise whats the point.

  • Ashen_XAshen_X Member Posts: 363

    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

     
     

    Actually, any gambling is generally illegal in many countries & US states as soon as money is involved. If Diablo 3 had mystic chests along with RMT, that would be flat-out illegal. So, yeah, you could sue quite a lot of developers - question is if you're really gonna win.

    http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/04/could-social-gaming-companies-get-nailed-for-illegal-gambling/

    But ArenaNet does not have gambling for real money.

    Of course they do xP

    Unlock chests with money, get a random item with a monetary value from them. Done!

    It's a gray area because you're not allowed to actually sell it for money again, but you still save money if you get good drops.

    But you can unlock chests without money and the items inside those chests do not have any monetary value.

    Chests drop regular cash shop items as well, so there is a definite monetary value to them. Alternatives to gambling don't matter, it's still gambling. F.e. if I gamble for a car, it's not legal just because I have the option to just buy / earn that car instead.

    So, what F2P games are doing is the equivalent to: Have an illegal poker tournament with a car as a prize. To get away with it, don't allow the winner to "cash out" by selling the car. Then, allow 12-year old kids to join the gambling fun!

    Totally legit and ethical buisiness practice, nothing to see here, move along...

    Do these chests have a chance to have nothing in them at all ? If you get something for your money it is a gamble as to whether or not you will get what you want, but, since there is a return on your investment, generally won't fall under gambling restrictions any more than collectible card games do.

    I agree with your statement that selling a harmless product to people who want it (and only those who want it as it is not at all forced) is completely ethical and legit.

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

     
     

    Actually, any gambling is generally illegal in many countries & US states as soon as money is involved. If Diablo 3 had mystic chests along with RMT, that would be flat-out illegal. So, yeah, you could sue quite a lot of developers - question is if you're really gonna win.

    http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/04/could-social-gaming-companies-get-nailed-for-illegal-gambling/

    But ArenaNet does not have gambling for real money.

    Of course they do xP

    Unlock chests with money, get a random item with a monetary value from them. Done!

    It's a gray area because you're not allowed to actually sell it for money again, but you still save money if you get good drops.

    But you can unlock chests without money and the items inside those chests do not have any monetary value.

    Chests drop regular cash shop items as well, so there is a definite monetary value to them. Alternatives to gambling don't matter, it's still gambling. F.e. if I gamble for a car, it's not legal just because I have the option to just buy / earn that car instead.

    So, what F2P games are doing is the equivalent to: Have an illegal poker tournament with a car as a prize. To get away with it, don't allow the winner to "cash out" by selling the car. Then, allow 12-year old kids to join the gambling fun!

    Totally legit and ethical buisiness practice, nothing to see here, move along...

    You can get certain cash shop items by just playing the game, the chests are just one possible way of getting them.

    These anti-cash shop posts are getting absolutely bananas at this point! Using your logic, buying a bag of assorted candies is gambling too and should be outlawed. I mean, seriously, give up and move on, you're really grasping here.

    Depends on which definition of "gambling" you use. If you consider gambling to be as simple as spending money/material resources to access items/money without being certain of getting exactly those items/money due to probabilty reasons, then yeah buying a bag of assorted candies may be a form of gambling.

    That seems to be the main compaint here. Since you're not 100% sure what you're going to get from those chests, it's gambling and unethical.

    It's absolutely ridiculous as using that same logic any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical.

    image

  • LucioonLucioon Member UncommonPosts: 819

    Originally posted by Torqia

    Random drop.. Its basicly just a drop item that you cant acces without gems bought in the shop.

    Ofc you can trade gems from others but somebody has to buy them..

    Its actualy a pretty normal use of cash shop.. Some games sell keys, Anet sells gems.. same deal. 

    Keys drop as well, its not a gem exclusive buy.

    What the OP is stating is if a lock box drops for him, and the key doesn't immediately, the only way to open it at that time is to buy the key, but of course you can still play till the key drops.

    What many is stating is that key is gem only, which is incorrect, they already stated that the key and lock boxes both drops randomly.

    Its just convenience that if you want it now, you can always just buy the keys.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • ButtskiButtski Member UncommonPosts: 187

    gw2 is soooo doomed!

    i got around 9001 lockboxes dropped at around level 10 and i had to buy a key for every one for 10 bucks each!

    this costed me 378923497290287349087104 bucks!

    but boy, this was worth it.

  • LucioonLucioon Member UncommonPosts: 819

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

     
     

    Actually, any gambling is generally illegal in many countries & US states as soon as money is involved. If Diablo 3 had mystic chests along with RMT, that would be flat-out illegal. So, yeah, you could sue quite a lot of developers - question is if you're really gonna win.

    http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/04/could-social-gaming-companies-get-nailed-for-illegal-gambling/

    But ArenaNet does not have gambling for real money.

    Of course they do xP

    Unlock chests with money, get a random item with a monetary value from them. Done!

    It's a gray area because you're not allowed to actually sell it for money again, but you still save money if you get good drops.

    But you can unlock chests without money and the items inside those chests do not have any monetary value.

    Chests drop regular cash shop items as well, so there is a definite monetary value to them. Alternatives to gambling don't matter, it's still gambling. F.e. if I gamble for a car, it's not legal just because I have the option to just buy / earn that car instead.

    So, what F2P games are doing is the equivalent to: Have an illegal poker tournament with a car as a prize. To get away with it, don't allow the winner to "cash out" by selling the car. Then, allow 12-year old kids to join the gambling fun!

    Totally legit and ethical buisiness practice, nothing to see here, move along...

    You can get certain cash shop items by just playing the game, the chests are just one possible way of getting them.

    These anti-cash shop posts are getting absolutely bananas at this point! Using your logic, buying a bag of assorted candies is gambling too and should be outlawed. I mean, seriously, give up and move on, you're really grasping here.

    Depends on which definition of "gambling" you use. If you consider gambling to be as simple as spending money/material resources to access items/money without being certain of getting exactly those items/money due to probabilty reasons, then yeah buying a bag of assorted candies may be a form of gambling.

    That seems to be the main compaint here. Since you're not 100% sure what you're going to get from those chests, it's gambling and unethical.

    It's absolutely ridiculous as using that same logic any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical.

     

    And gaming is gambling, in SWTOR you were constantly gambling for that 1/4 drop for your PVP gear. In Raids you were always gambling that you might get that drop, and if it does drop, you were gambling with others with your dice rolls.

    Every mob you kill in game is gambling, because you never know if you will get that one world drop that others gotten and sold for tons of ingame money.

    Just exploring in GW2 and every MMO is an Gamble, you never know if you will succeed in killing that boss for the loot that might or might not drop, or maybe someone already is there tagging the Named Mobs like in FFXI

    Gaming is Gambling, if you can't handle that, I think gaming is really not for you.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155

    Originally posted by Ashen_X

    (quotes)

    Do these chests have a chance to have nothing in them at all ? If you get something for your money it is a gamble as to whether or not you will get what you want, but, since there is a return on your investment, generally won't fall under gambling restrictions any more than collectible card games do.

    (...)

    I would be surprised if it is that simple to avoid gambling restrictions, because then every casino could just start introducing 1 cent guaranteed returns to avoid the legal term "gambling".

    Which is why I think it would be really good if a lawyer or someone else that knows the law in this particular area, very good, could shred some light.

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Member UncommonPosts: 1,332

    Originally posted by Lucioon

     

    Keys drop as well, its not a gem exclusive buy.

    What the OP is stating is if a lock box drops for him, and the key doesn't immediately, the only way to open it at that time is to buy the key, but of course you can still play till the key drops.

    What many is stating is that key is gem only, which is incorrect, they already stated that the key and lock boxes both drops randomly.

    Its just convenience that if you want it now, you can always just buy the keys.

    The haters try to make it sound worse than it is.

    The Fanboi's try to downplay it.

    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    Yes you can get keys as drops. However the system has to be designed to have more chests drop than keys. Any person who looks at this objectively, should understand why.

    I personally feel the idea of dropping loot that I can't open unless I buy a key repulsive. It is pretty much the only thing in the current design of the game that bothers me. I'm sure I'll get over it eventually and will probably auction them off, if there is a market for them at launch.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

     
     

    Actually, any gambling is generally illegal in many countries & US states as soon as money is involved. If Diablo 3 had mystic chests along with RMT, that would be flat-out illegal. So, yeah, you could sue quite a lot of developers - question is if you're really gonna win.

    http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/04/could-social-gaming-companies-get-nailed-for-illegal-gambling/

    But ArenaNet does not have gambling for real money.

    Of course they do xP

    Unlock chests with money, get a random item with a monetary value from them. Done!

    It's a gray area because you're not allowed to actually sell it for money again, but you still save money if you get good drops.

    But you can unlock chests without money and the items inside those chests do not have any monetary value.

    Chests drop regular cash shop items as well, so there is a definite monetary value to them. Alternatives to gambling don't matter, it's still gambling. F.e. if I gamble for a car, it's not legal just because I have the option to just buy / earn that car instead.

    So, what F2P games are doing is the equivalent to: Have an illegal poker tournament with a car as a prize. To get away with it, don't allow the winner to "cash out" by selling the car. Then, allow 12-year old kids to join the gambling fun!

    Totally legit and ethical buisiness practice, nothing to see here, move along...

    You can get certain cash shop items by just playing the game, the chests are just one possible way of getting them.

    These anti-cash shop posts are getting absolutely bananas at this point! Using your logic, buying a bag of assorted candies is gambling too and should be outlawed. I mean, seriously, give up and move on, you're really grasping here.

    Depends on which definition of "gambling" you use. If you consider gambling to be as simple as spending money/material resources to access items/money without being certain of getting exactly those items/money due to probabilty reasons, then yeah buying a bag of assorted candies may be a form of gambling.

    That seems to be the main compaint here. Since you're not 100% sure what you're going to get from those chests, it's gambling and unethical.

    It's absolutely ridiculous as using that same logic any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical.

    The law can sometimes give ridiculous situations such as in the case with age restrictions, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't possibly be true. Also one can avoid your generalization "any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical" by requiring at least 1% relevant uncertainty. 

    Furthermore, it is comes down to personal opinion whether or not all gambling is unethical. 

    Which is why: as I mentioned above: it would be great if a lawyer or someone else that knows American law very well, can give us some insight into how things work and where the actual lines are drawn.

     

     

  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,860

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by Lucioon


     

    Keys drop as well, its not a gem exclusive buy.

    What the OP is stating is if a lock box drops for him, and the key doesn't immediately, the only way to open it at that time is to buy the key, but of course you can still play till the key drops.

    What many is stating is that key is gem only, which is incorrect, they already stated that the key and lock boxes both drops randomly.

    Its just convenience that if you want it now, you can always just buy the keys.

    The haters try to make it sound worse than it is.

    The Fanboi's try to downplay it.

    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    Yes you can get keys as drops. However the system has to be designed to have more chests drop than keys. Any person who looks at this objectively, should understand why.

    I personally feel the idea of dropping loot that I can't open unless I buy a key repulsive. It is pretty much the only thing in the current design of the game that bothers me. I'm sure I'll get over it eventually and will probably auction them off, if there is a market for them at launch.

    gold=gems=keys. Not a huge deal. 

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • Skarecrow7Skarecrow7 Member UncommonPosts: 339

    It's not illeagle. You dont need to be a lawyer to figure that out. This is just silly.

     

    Crap, now I bumped this thread that has clearly turned into one well beaten dead horse.

    image

  • Enok4TwunniEnok4Twunni Member Posts: 207

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by Lucioon


     

    Keys drop as well, its not a gem exclusive buy.

    What the OP is stating is if a lock box drops for him, and the key doesn't immediately, the only way to open it at that time is to buy the key, but of course you can still play till the key drops.

    What many is stating is that key is gem only, which is incorrect, they already stated that the key and lock boxes both drops randomly.

    Its just convenience that if you want it now, you can always just buy the keys.

    The haters try to make it sound worse than it is.

    The Fanboi's try to downplay it.

    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    Yes you can get keys as drops. However the system has to be designed to have more chests drop than keys. Any person who looks at this objectively, should understand why.

    I personally feel the idea of dropping loot that I can't open unless I buy a key repulsive. It is pretty much the only thing in the current design of the game that bothers me. I'm sure I'll get over it eventually and will probably auction them off, if there is a market for them at launch.

    Why do all you people keep saying you can't open the chests unless you buy keys???!!!! I mean you just said you can get keys as drops and then the very next paragraph you say it's repulsive that you have to buy keys??? WTF??? Let's go back to Guild Wars....you didn't get loot chests, but around the instanced world you'd run into chests on the ground that you'd need a lockpick for or the correct type of key for. These keys would drop, or you could buy them from merchants in cities. The drop rate on the keys were really low if you didn't want to buy them from a merchant....did you have to pay real money? No. Guess what, you still don't. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything with the current setup. It's available to people that just wanna get a chest open now rather than wait for a key drop. Am I a fanboi?? I don't think so, but I believe Anet has proven that they put their money where their mouths are. Impatient people can bit*h all they want, I'll just put the chests I can't open in my storage until I get the keys to open them. Simple as that. Another thing to think about is this, Anet isn't forcing you to support the devs that put all the time and effort into this game, but if you're anything like me, you'll but some stuff from the shop here and there, mainly out of want or a desire but also because it helps the devs by putting money on their pay checks. Quit crying all you babies that keep lying to yourselves about what's happening with keys....YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY IF YOU DON'T WANT! NUFF SAID!!!!

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

     
     

    Actually, any gambling is generally illegal in many countries & US states as soon as money is involved. If Diablo 3 had mystic chests along with RMT, that would be flat-out illegal. So, yeah, you could sue quite a lot of developers - question is if you're really gonna win.

    http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/04/could-social-gaming-companies-get-nailed-for-illegal-gambling/

    But ArenaNet does not have gambling for real money.

    Of course they do xP

    Unlock chests with money, get a random item with a monetary value from them. Done!

    It's a gray area because you're not allowed to actually sell it for money again, but you still save money if you get good drops.

    But you can unlock chests without money and the items inside those chests do not have any monetary value.

    Chests drop regular cash shop items as well, so there is a definite monetary value to them. Alternatives to gambling don't matter, it's still gambling. F.e. if I gamble for a car, it's not legal just because I have the option to just buy / earn that car instead.

    So, what F2P games are doing is the equivalent to: Have an illegal poker tournament with a car as a prize. To get away with it, don't allow the winner to "cash out" by selling the car. Then, allow 12-year old kids to join the gambling fun!

    Totally legit and ethical buisiness practice, nothing to see here, move along...

    You can get certain cash shop items by just playing the game, the chests are just one possible way of getting them.

    These anti-cash shop posts are getting absolutely bananas at this point! Using your logic, buying a bag of assorted candies is gambling too and should be outlawed. I mean, seriously, give up and move on, you're really grasping here.

    Depends on which definition of "gambling" you use. If you consider gambling to be as simple as spending money/material resources to access items/money without being certain of getting exactly those items/money due to probabilty reasons, then yeah buying a bag of assorted candies may be a form of gambling.

    That seems to be the main compaint here. Since you're not 100% sure what you're going to get from those chests, it's gambling and unethical.

    It's absolutely ridiculous as using that same logic any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical.

    The law can sometimes give ridiculous situations such as in the case with age restrictions, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't possibly be true. Also one can avoid your generalization "any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical" by requiring at least 1% relevant uncertainty. 

    Furthermore, it is comes down to personal opinion whether or not all gambling is unethical. 

    Which is why: as I mentioned above: it would be great if a lawyer or someone else that knows American law very well, can give us some insight into how things work and where the actual lines are drawn.

     

     

    Or maybe it would be great if we just used common sense and not blow things out of proportion?

    image

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155

    Originally posted by enoch420

    Originally posted by Atlan99


    Originally posted by Lucioon


     

    Keys drop as well, its not a gem exclusive buy.

    What the OP is stating is if a lock box drops for him, and the key doesn't immediately, the only way to open it at that time is to buy the key, but of course you can still play till the key drops.

    What many is stating is that key is gem only, which is incorrect, they already stated that the key and lock boxes both drops randomly.

    Its just convenience that if you want it now, you can always just buy the keys.

    The haters try to make it sound worse than it is.

    The Fanboi's try to downplay it.

    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    Yes you can get keys as drops. However the system has to be designed to have more chests drop than keys. Any person who looks at this objectively, should understand why.

    I personally feel the idea of dropping loot that I can't open unless I buy a key repulsive. It is pretty much the only thing in the current design of the game that bothers me. I'm sure I'll get over it eventually and will probably auction them off, if there is a market for them at launch.

    Why do all you people keep saying you can't open the chests unless you buy keys???!!!! I mean you just said you can get keys as drops and then the very next paragraph you say it's repulsive that you have to buy keys??? WTF??? Let's go back to Guild Wars....you didn't get loot chests, but around the instanced world you'd run into chests on the ground that you'd need a lockpick for or the correct type of key for. These keys would drop, or you could buy them from merchants in cities. The drop rate on the keys were really low if you didn't want to buy them from a merchant....did you have to pay real money? No. Guess what, you still don't. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything with the current setup. It's available to people that just wanna get a chest open now rather than wait for a key drop. Am I a fanboi?? I don't think so, but I believe Anet has proven that they put their money where their mouths are. Impatient people can bit*h all they want, I'll just put the chests I can't open in my storage until I get the keys to open them. Simple as that. Another thing to think about is this, Anet isn't forcing you to support the devs that put all the time and effort into this game, but if you're anything like me, you'll but some stuff from the shop here and there, mainly out of want or a desire but also because it helps the devs by putting money on their pay checks. Quit crying all you babies that keep lying to yourselves about what's happening with keys....YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY IF YOU DON'T WANT! NUFF SAID!!!!

     

    I think he meant buying a key in a general sense, no necessarely buying a key from the gemshop directly. Furthermore, I think it was implied that the state wanted was the state in which a person, on average, will be able to open all their mystic boxes. 

    The butler was though left out of his post, but there is strong reason to suspect that even with the butler, there will be an overflow of chests on average.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

     
     

    Actually, any gambling is generally illegal in many countries & US states as soon as money is involved. If Diablo 3 had mystic chests along with RMT, that would be flat-out illegal. So, yeah, you could sue quite a lot of developers - question is if you're really gonna win.

    http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/04/could-social-gaming-companies-get-nailed-for-illegal-gambling/

    But ArenaNet does not have gambling for real money.

    Of course they do xP

    Unlock chests with money, get a random item with a monetary value from them. Done!

    It's a gray area because you're not allowed to actually sell it for money again, but you still save money if you get good drops.

    But you can unlock chests without money and the items inside those chests do not have any monetary value.

    Chests drop regular cash shop items as well, so there is a definite monetary value to them. Alternatives to gambling don't matter, it's still gambling. F.e. if I gamble for a car, it's not legal just because I have the option to just buy / earn that car instead.

    So, what F2P games are doing is the equivalent to: Have an illegal poker tournament with a car as a prize. To get away with it, don't allow the winner to "cash out" by selling the car. Then, allow 12-year old kids to join the gambling fun!

    Totally legit and ethical buisiness practice, nothing to see here, move along...

    You can get certain cash shop items by just playing the game, the chests are just one possible way of getting them.

    These anti-cash shop posts are getting absolutely bananas at this point! Using your logic, buying a bag of assorted candies is gambling too and should be outlawed. I mean, seriously, give up and move on, you're really grasping here.

    Depends on which definition of "gambling" you use. If you consider gambling to be as simple as spending money/material resources to access items/money without being certain of getting exactly those items/money due to probabilty reasons, then yeah buying a bag of assorted candies may be a form of gambling.

    That seems to be the main compaint here. Since you're not 100% sure what you're going to get from those chests, it's gambling and unethical.

    It's absolutely ridiculous as using that same logic any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical.

    The law can sometimes give ridiculous situations such as in the case with age restrictions, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't possibly be true. Also one can avoid your generalization "any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical" by requiring at least 1% relevant uncertainty. 

    Furthermore, it is comes down to personal opinion whether or not all gambling is unethical. 

    Which is why: as I mentioned above: it would be great if a lawyer or someone else that knows American law very well, can give us some insight into how things work and where the actual lines are drawn.

     

     

    Or maybe it would be great if we just used common sense and not blow things out of proportion?

    The law is the law and "common sense" won't magically change it or make it dissappear. Furthermore, I am interested in knowing how things really are, due to curiosity rather than a tool to bring down GW2, which you didn't necessarely imply. 

  • VaultFairyVaultFairy Member UncommonPosts: 566

    I've had about 2 mystic chests drop and 2 mystic keys at the same while i was doing my Personal Story. Why would grind for them? All i got from them are 2x tonics, 3x random % increase potion and random other crafting materials (i.e lute or leather) .

  • SephastusSephastus Member UncommonPosts: 455

    Gold /= Gems .... (There is no Gold to Gem NPC anywhere in the game.)

    Money = Gems ... (Players buy Gems, and put these in the broker so that others can buy em for Gold)

    Just because YOU don't dish out the money, doesn't mean that money was not involved. Just like when you hire a hitman... it wasn't YOU who pulled the trigger to kill someone, but you are still responsible for the death.

    The Gem drop rate in this game is abysmal. Gems in game come rarely from Lockboxes, and lockboxes require keys. If you want to get enough Gems to get a $5.00 equivalency, how long would you have to farm? Another poster said that his lockboxes contained one to three gems. I was reading somewhere that $5.00 = 400 Gems, and even if the money equivalent was changed down the line, it looks like it will take a very long grind to get any significant amount of Gems.

    With that said, if there is a market for Gems, it is NOT going to come solely from in game sources. The vast mayority of in game Gems will come from actual money transactions, and there is no denying this.

    In any case, the game needs a revenue stream of some sort, and A-Net has been smart in hiding it, and then telling everyone else "o look, we are a buy once, never spend a dime game!" While there will be some people that will never spend a dime beyond their initial purchase, there is still going to be another group dishing out the money.

    Look up the Pareto Principle for reference. This is the principle that F2P games are based on, and GW2 will be doing it as well for their revenue. THIS IS NOT BAD. But people that choose to blindly ignore this are only fooling themselves. All games that require maintenance, update and expansion need some sort of revenue to offset these costs, and to bring in a profit. GW2 is not the exception.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence


    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

     
     

    Actually, any gambling is generally illegal in many countries & US states as soon as money is involved. If Diablo 3 had mystic chests along with RMT, that would be flat-out illegal. So, yeah, you could sue quite a lot of developers - question is if you're really gonna win.

    http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/04/could-social-gaming-companies-get-nailed-for-illegal-gambling/

    But ArenaNet does not have gambling for real money.

    Of course they do xP

    Unlock chests with money, get a random item with a monetary value from them. Done!

    It's a gray area because you're not allowed to actually sell it for money again, but you still save money if you get good drops.

    But you can unlock chests without money and the items inside those chests do not have any monetary value.

    Chests drop regular cash shop items as well, so there is a definite monetary value to them. Alternatives to gambling don't matter, it's still gambling. F.e. if I gamble for a car, it's not legal just because I have the option to just buy / earn that car instead.

    So, what F2P games are doing is the equivalent to: Have an illegal poker tournament with a car as a prize. To get away with it, don't allow the winner to "cash out" by selling the car. Then, allow 12-year old kids to join the gambling fun!

    Totally legit and ethical buisiness practice, nothing to see here, move along...

    You can get certain cash shop items by just playing the game, the chests are just one possible way of getting them.

    These anti-cash shop posts are getting absolutely bananas at this point! Using your logic, buying a bag of assorted candies is gambling too and should be outlawed. I mean, seriously, give up and move on, you're really grasping here.

    Depends on which definition of "gambling" you use. If you consider gambling to be as simple as spending money/material resources to access items/money without being certain of getting exactly those items/money due to probabilty reasons, then yeah buying a bag of assorted candies may be a form of gambling.

    That seems to be the main compaint here. Since you're not 100% sure what you're going to get from those chests, it's gambling and unethical.

    It's absolutely ridiculous as using that same logic any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical.

    The law can sometimes give ridiculous situations such as in the case with age restrictions, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't possibly be true. Also one can avoid your generalization "any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical" by requiring at least 1% relevant uncertainty. 

    Furthermore, it is comes down to personal opinion whether or not all gambling is unethical. 

    Which is why: as I mentioned above: it would be great if a lawyer or someone else that knows American law very well, can give us some insight into how things work and where the actual lines are drawn.

     

     

    Or maybe it would be great if we just used common sense and not blow things out of proportion?

    The law is the law and "common sense" won't magically change it or make it dissappear. Furthermore, I am interested in knowing how things really are, due to curiosity rather than a tool to bring down GW2, which you didn't necessarely imply. 

    Well, you can always consult with a lawyer, pay a consultation fee and find out. Or you can just realize that since assorted candies are legal, so is this. Especially if it's properly advertized, which it is.

    image

  • nolic1nolic1 Member UncommonPosts: 716

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    The law is the law

    HAHAHAHA I AM the LAW. Sorry couldn't help it Jugde Dread. But really you guys gripping about the CS in GW2 and yet theres millions of people around the world who in all ways and shaps buy things that are meaning less and yet get asked why did you waste your money even on this site it happens when ever a new game comes out. But yet here we are gripping about a CS in a game that some are buying. Heres a thought if you dont like the cash shop dont use it that simple just like other games with them if you dont like it dont use it.

    And dont we here that here enough here as well with games if you dont like it dont play it. Hello McFly get real people its a game with a cash shop gess wht buying a game is just as much a gamble as buying the boxes in this game because you never know what it wil be. Look at me I bought SWTOR I thought it was going to be a great game was it no was it what I thought I was buying not in a million years was it like I thought it would be hmmm what about Tera I bought it did I like it or did it match what they said no it did not. These are my opinions but freaking out on the CS in a game when we know its there is stupied its not like SWTOR that was supposed to be a SW game and isnt its a less then WoW with a SW skin. Tera is a beautiful game with what I was told and seen amazing combat and huge open world was it like that oh hell no it was not it was a game with a simi action combat and I say that cause true action combat is not like this sorry again my opinion. 

    You say the Cash shop this and that but dont grip that we pay a monthly fee for games that dont give us more then a few months game play sheesh I sell sale me the game and dont charge me a fee then I would really felt I got my moneys worth. Also games that are not online games most of the time get more updates done to fix them then the ones with them.

    Sherman's Gaming

    Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online

    Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw

  • MahavishnuMahavishnu Member Posts: 336

    Ok,

    first, there is no monthly fee, but somebody has to be paid for running the servers, right? ArenaNet does not like "pay to win", because it is bullshit, but somehow they need to earn money. So this is their model, and they are still testing it. Yes, you can by some stuff with real money and it makes life easier, but you can play the whole game and compete without paying a single cent. Seems very fair to me.

    Nevertheless, there are players who are willing to pay some bucks from time to time, if they like the game. The cashshop just gives you a good control over how much you want to pay.

    Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  • HomituHomitu Member UncommonPosts: 2,030

    I think the larger complaint should be that the stuff in those boxes are so worthless that the boxes themselves lose all signifnicance.  They cease to feel like "treasure" at all. 

  • neonwireneonwire Member Posts: 1,787

    Originally posted by Torqia

    Its Pay to not be annoyed...

    So you need to pay real money to open lockboxes.... sigh

    Yes that isnt pay to win but if you dont pay, your gonna feel like you cant get the items you grinded for and that would piss me off terribly.

    Yes they need to make money but i for one HATE HATE HATE this model. 

    Well I LOVE LOVE LOVE this model. I hope more mmos use it.

    So.......you would rather be FORCED to pay a monthly fee just to be able to play the game you already bought, instead of paying an OPTIONAL fee to remove a bit of a time sink? What about the people who dont care about lockboxes and have no problem using in-game methods of opening them?

    If it bothers you then just pay the money, enjoy the game without the things that annoy you and treat it as though you are paying a subscription fee if you are so eager to have your money taken off you.

  • udonudon Member UncommonPosts: 1,803

    Originally posted by neonwire

    Originally posted by Torqia

    Its Pay to not be annoyed...

    So you need to pay real money to open lockboxes.... sigh

    Yes that isnt pay to win but if you dont pay, your gonna feel like you cant get the items you grinded for and that would piss me off terribly.

    Yes they need to make money but i for one HATE HATE HATE this model. 

    Well I LOVE LOVE LOVE this model. I hope more mmos use it.

    So.......you would rather be FORCED to pay a monthly fee just to be able to play the game you already bought, instead of paying an OPTIONAL fee to remove a bit of a time sink? What about the people who dont care about lockboxes and have no problem using in-game methods of opening them?

    If it bothers you then just pay the money, enjoy the game without the things that annoy you and treat it as though you are paying a subscription fee if you are so eager to have your money taken off you.

    Using that logic with a game like STO for instance someone would have to spend hundreds of dollars a month to open all the lock boxes that drop.  Of course GW2's lockbox system isn't like that, not yet anyways.

  • QuenchsterQuenchster Member Posts: 450

    Originally posted by Homitu

    I think the larger complaint should be that the stuff in those boxes are so worthless that the boxes themselves lose all signifnicance.  They cease to feel like "treasure" at all. 

    The gathering tools inside the lockboxes are actually nice to have, because they can be used on even the highest level of ore deposits, plants, and trees. That is all that I really found useful with the lockboxes in beta.

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