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Your right. it isn't pay to win. It's....

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  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

          

    Actually, any gambling is generally illegal in many countries & US states as soon as money is involved. If Diablo 3 had mystic chests along with RMT, that would be flat-out illegal. So, yeah, you could sue quite a lot of developers - question is if you're really gonna win.

    http://venturebeat.com/2009/06/04/could-social-gaming-companies-get-nailed-for-illegal-gambling/

    But ArenaNet does not have gambling for real money.

    Of course they do xP

    Unlock chests with money, get a random item with a monetary value from them. Done!

    It's a gray area because you're not allowed to actually sell it for money again, but you still save money if you get good drops.

    But you can unlock chests without money and the items inside those chests do not have any monetary value.

    Chests drop regular cash shop items as well, so there is a definite monetary value to them. Alternatives to gambling don't matter, it's still gambling. F.e. if I gamble for a car, it's not legal just because I have the option to just buy / earn that car instead.

    So, what F2P games are doing is the equivalent to: Have an illegal poker tournament with a car as a prize. To get away with it, don't allow the winner to "cash out" by selling the car. Then, allow 12-year old kids to join the gambling fun!

    Totally legit and ethical buisiness practice, nothing to see here, move along...

    You can get certain cash shop items by just playing the game, the chests are just one possible way of getting them.

    These anti-cash shop posts are getting absolutely bananas at this point! Using your logic, buying a bag of assorted candies is gambling too and should be outlawed. I mean, seriously, give up and move on, you're really grasping here.

    Depends on which definition of "gambling" you use. If you consider gambling to be as simple as spending money/material resources to access items/money without being certain of getting exactly those items/money due to probabilty reasons, then yeah buying a bag of assorted candies may be a form of gambling.

    That seems to be the main compaint here. Since you're not 100% sure what you're going to get from those chests, it's gambling and unethical.

    It's absolutely ridiculous as using that same logic any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical.

    The law can sometimes give ridiculous situations such as in the case with age restrictions, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't possibly be true. Also one can avoid your generalization "any product can be considered gambling and/or unethical" by requiring at least 1% relevant uncertainty. 

    Furthermore, it is comes down to personal opinion whether or not all gambling is unethical. 

    Which is why: as I mentioned above: it would be great if a lawyer or someone else that knows American law very well, can give us some insight into how things work and where the actual lines are drawn.

     

     

    Or maybe it would be great if we just used common sense and not blow things out of proportion?

    The law is the law and "common sense" won't magically change it or make it dissappear. Furthermore, I am interested in knowing how things really are, due to curiosity rather than a tool to bring down GW2, which you didn't necessarely imply. 

    Well, you can always consult with a lawyer, pay a consultation fee and find out. Or you can just realize that since assorted candies are legal, so is this. Especially if it's properly advertized, which it is.

     

    That assumes the lawyer in question knows the field of interest and I can be sure that he knows it. Furthermore, it is not unthinkable that there is a difference between cases where the customer is not allowed to see the contents of the assorted candies before purchase compared to cases where they are allowed.

     

    To continue, there are several aspects of the law. Reading British regulations (American ones may very well hold different views) at http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=2545&p=0, they point out following:

    A lottery is a kind of gambling which has three essential 


    ingredients:


    ? You have to pay to enter the game


    ? There is always at least one prize


    ? Prizes are awarded purely on chance


     


    They do, however, not say that those conditions are sufficient to be considered a lottery.  The case with the mystic boxes and their keys is very similar; however, the first condition "You have to pay to enter the game" is up for discussion since one could argue that the keys hold a monetary value and therefore buying it from another player would still be considered a form of "payment" in accordance with the first condition. Even just "using a key" can be seen as a destruction of wealth to participate in something that gives them entrance to a game based on chance. 


     


    Then, of course, while it may not be a form of lottery, it may fall under a different type of gambling with its corresponding rules.


     


    Returning to the "assorted candies" example, it is interesting to note following distinction between lotteries according to the UK source:


     


    Types of lottery that require permission:


     



    Small society lotteries  The society in question must be set up for noncommercial purposes eg sports, cultural or charitable. There is a top limit of £20,000 in ticket sales. Contact and report: LA. 


     


    Large society lotteries  Similar to the small society lottery, but there is a 


    minimum of £20,000 in ticket sales. Contact and report: Commission. 


     


    Local authority lotteries  Run by the local authority, to help with any 


    expenditure it normally incurs. Contact and report: Commission.


     


    Types of lottery that do not require permission:


     


    Private society lotteries   Any group or society except those set up for 


    gambling. The proceeds of the lottery must go to the purposes of the society 


    itself. Contact: LA or Commission. 


     


    Work lotteries  These can only be run and played by colleagues at a 


    particular place of work. This type of lottery cannot make a profit, and so is 


    unsuitable for fundraising. Contact: LA or Commission. 


     


    Residents’ lotteries  These can only be run and played by people living 


    at a particular address. This type of lottery cannot make a profit, and so is 


    unsuitable for fundraising. Contact: LA or Commission. 


     


    Customer lotteries  These can only be run by a business, at its own premises 


    and for its own customers. No prize can be more than £50 in value. This type 


    of lottery cannot make a profit, and so is unsuitable for fundraising. Contact: 


    LA or Commission. 


     


    Incidental non-commercial lotteries  These are held at non-commercial 


    events, such as school fetes etc. All the sales and the draw must take place 


    during the main event, which may last more than a single day. Prizes cannot 


    total more than £500. Contact: LA.


     


    As you may note, assuming the customer isn't allowed to check the contents of the assorced candies before purchasing, they can fall into different types of lotteries. If it falls under "Small Society Lotteries", they would be required to have permission, while "Private society lotteries" ones would not require permission.


     


    Aside from that, there is also the tax issue and its rules. Both for the winner and the company. Before you object: just because the prize isn't pure money, it doesn't mean that there cannot be a tax on winnings: this is specially obvious when people win cars.


  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    You don't have to pay to enter the game. The keys can be acquired throw normal gameplay elements.

    image

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155

    Originally posted by heartless

    You don't have to pay to enter the game. The keys can be acquired throw normal gameplay elements.

    I already covered that in my previous post. To expand: the "game" has to be defined and it can be argued that every box in itself contains a game. It can also be argued that keys hold a monetary value and that destruction/consumption of keys as a requirement to enter the game should be considered on equal status as "paying" to enter a game. 

     

    The overall point being, specially through the case with the assorted candies, that the law/regulations aren't always very simple and are at least interesting to me, personally. 

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by heartless

    You don't have to pay to enter the game. The keys can be acquired throw normal gameplay elements.

    I already covered that in my previous post. To expand: the "game" has to be defined and it can be argued that every box in itself contains a game. It can also be argued that keys hold a monetary value and that destruction/consumption of keys as a requirement to enter the game should be considered on equal status as "paying" to enter a game. 

     

    The overall point being, specially through the case with the assorted candies, that the law/regulations aren't always very simple and are at least interesting to me, personally. 

    The boxes themselves can be opened by butler golems which do not have a monetary value, bypassing the need for keys completely.

    image

  • udonudon Member UncommonPosts: 1,803

    Originally posted by heartless

    You don't have to pay to enter the game. The keys can be acquired throw normal gameplay elements.

    The best situation Anet could hope for is you have 4 boxes and 2 keys.  If your going to open 2 of the four boxes the tempation to just jump on the gem store to buy the keys for the last two will be ever so large.  Some people will be able to resist, many won't.

    And as for being able to buy gems for gold somehow makes it ok.  Someone has to buy those gems with cash to put up for sale so it doesn't matter to Anet at all rather you pay cash for the gems or gold to someone else who pays cash for the gems.  It's the same cash to Anet either way.

  • VowOfSilenceVowOfSilence Member UncommonPosts: 565

    Btw. remember that Diablo 3 RMT was declared illegal in South Korea not too long ago? And calling that "gambling" is indeed kinda far-fetched, imo.

    Anyway, Blizzard just dropped it. Huh, looks like RMT wasn't THAT important, after all...

    Ironically, GW2 didn't run into any issues with South Korea yet. May have something to with NCsoft being a South Korean company xP

    Hype train -> Reality

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    Btw. remember that Diablo 3 RMT was declared illegal in South Korea not too long ago? And calling that "gambling" is indeed kinda far-fetched, imo.

    Anyway, Blizzard just dropped it. Huh, looks like RMT wasn't THAT important, after all...

    Ironically, GW2 didn't run into any issues with South Korea yet. May have something to with NCsoft being a South Korean company xP

    It has nothing to do with NCSoft being a Korean company. Cash shop games are legal in South Korea. Hell, most of them originate there.

    The issue is Diablo III's auction house which allows users to make money from trading virtual goods.

    image

  • p_c_sousap_c_sousa Member Posts: 620

    i think some guys are getting crazy because they cant play GW2...

    seriously, gambling and laws stuff? xDD

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by heartless

    You don't have to pay to enter the game. The keys can be acquired throw normal gameplay elements.

    I already covered that in my previous post. To expand: the "game" has to be defined and it can be argued that every box in itself contains a game. It can also be argued that keys hold a monetary value and that destruction/consumption of keys as a requirement to enter the game should be considered on equal status as "paying" to enter a game. 

     

    The overall point being, specially through the case with the assorted candies, that the law/regulations aren't always very simple and are at least interesting to me, personally. 

    The boxes themselves can be opened by butler golems which do not have a monetary value, bypassing the need for keys completely.

    That is a good point; however, certain lottery-arrangers have been giving away a restricted amount of lotteries for free through different outlets. That may still not be enough for them to stop being considered lotteries. 

     

    I suppose, it isn't as simple as just introducing a few alternative ways to get access to the game. Maybe the normative way to gain access is what matters. 

     

    Feeling sleepy; but laws and how they affect the cyberspace is a very interesting topic. I remember, although not from where, people saying that the law is very much behind in implementing and adjusting itself to the massive cyberspace that has arrived the past decades.  I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lack of precendents in that area and that there are problems in both controlling, enforcing and designing easy-to-understand guidelines for internet-based activities.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by heartless

    You don't have to pay to enter the game. The keys can be acquired throw normal gameplay elements.
    I already covered that in my previous post. To expand: the "game" has to be defined and it can be argued that every box in itself contains a game. It can also be argued that keys hold a monetary value and that destruction/consumption of keys as a requirement to enter the game should be considered on equal status as "paying" to enter a game. 
     
    The overall point being, specially through the case with the assorted candies, that the law/regulations aren't always very simple and are at least interesting to me, personally. 
    The boxes themselves can be opened by butler golems which do not have a monetary value, bypassing the need for keys completely.

    I have seen a lot of arguements back and forth over the cash shop items and how you can obtain them in game.

    My question is this. How can A-net maintain profitability through it's cash shop while everything in the shop is also available in the game? I understand low drop rates. I also understand that the cash shop is more about convenience and all, but To be honest, from everything I have seen and read about the cash shop, I look at it and think, WTF is wrong here, It seems that A-Net shouldn't even bother with it. Even if you say Time VS money or "items of convenience", GW2 is already casual enough where it seems if you need that much more convenience than the game already provides.....Why are you even bothering to play GW2? What I mean is, The whole Cash Shop just feels so pointless.

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Member Posts: 877

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     



    Originally posted by heartless




    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour




    Originally posted by heartless



    You don't have to pay to enter the game. The keys can be acquired throw normal gameplay elements.





    I already covered that in my previous post. To expand: the "game" has to be defined and it can be argued that every box in itself contains a game. It can also be argued that keys hold a monetary value and that destruction/consumption of keys as a requirement to enter the game should be considered on equal status as "paying" to enter a game. 

     

    The overall point being, specially through the case with the assorted candies, that the law/regulations aren't always very simple and are at least interesting to me, personally. 




    The boxes themselves can be opened by butler golems which do not have a monetary value, bypassing the need for keys completely.


     

    I have seen a lot of arguements back and forth over the cash shop items and how you can obtain them in game.

    My question is this. How can A-net maintain profitability through it's cash shop while everything in the shop is also available in the game? I understand low drop rates. I also understand that the cash shop is more about convenience and all, but To be honest, from everything I have seen and read about the cash shop, I look at it and think, WTF is wrong here, It seems that A-Net shouldn't even bother with it. Even if you say Time VS money or "items of convenience", GW2 is already casual enough where it seems if you need that much more convenience than the game already provides.....Why are you even bothering to play GW2? What I mean is, The whole Cash Shop just feels so pointless.

    Then don't buy anything, others will as people are impatient.  Pretty much a sound CS, time convinience if you really don't feel like going through the same amount of effort on your 4th tool and enough ccount enhancements to make those who will grind through time to buy stuff.

  • Unknown

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     



    Originally posted by heartless




    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour




    Originally posted by heartless



    You don't have to pay to enter the game. The keys can be acquired throw normal gameplay elements.





    I already covered that in my previous post. To expand: the "game" has to be defined and it can be argued that every box in itself contains a game. It can also be argued that keys hold a monetary value and that destruction/consumption of keys as a requirement to enter the game should be considered on equal status as "paying" to enter a game. 

     

    The overall point being, specially through the case with the assorted candies, that the law/regulations aren't always very simple and are at least interesting to me, personally. 




    The boxes themselves can be opened by butler golems which do not have a monetary value, bypassing the need for keys completely.


     

    I have seen a lot of arguements back and forth over the cash shop items and how you can obtain them in game.

    My question is this. How can A-net maintain profitability through it's cash shop while everything in the shop is also available in the game? I understand low drop rates. I also understand that the cash shop is more about convenience and all, but To be honest, from everything I have seen and read about the cash shop, I look at it and think, WTF is wrong here, It seems that A-Net shouldn't even bother with it. Even if you say Time VS money or "items of convenience", GW2 is already casual enough where it seems if you need that much more convenience than the game already provides.....Why are you even bothering to play GW2? What I mean is, The whole Cash Shop just feels so pointless.

    One of the things to realize is that in most cash shop games a large portion of the money is actually spent by a rather small amount of people.

    Some people have money to burn and will do so.

    The vast majority of players make very few purchases.

  • Ashen_XAshen_X Member Posts: 363

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Originally posted by Ashen_X

    (quotes)

    Do these chests have a chance to have nothing in them at all ? If you get something for your money it is a gamble as to whether or not you will get what you want, but, since there is a return on your investment, generally won't fall under gambling restrictions any more than collectible card games do.

    (...)

    I would be surprised if it is that simple to avoid gambling restrictions, because then every casino could just start introducing 1 cent guaranteed returns to avoid the legal term "gambling".

    Which is why I think it would be really good if a lawyer or someone else that knows the law in this particular area, very good, could shred some light.

    You would be surprised at how strictly the legal system defines gambling. 

    As to your specific example..as long as the Casino could demonstrate that their 'prize' had a potential value comparable to the cost of attaining it...they could do exactly as you say. But what would the cost be to them at that point ? If your $1 slot machine is guaranteed to have a pay-out of a prize with a value of $1 and a possibility of much more the Casino starts to lose money on the slot machine even if they are able to buy the prize item for a fraction of its transferred value (for example a plush doll they buy for $.35 and assign a transfer value of $1). The cost of storing, handling, etc these prizes eats into the profit from the slot machines.

    Remember that random "drops" gained from buying a product of some sort have stood the test of time (in the U.S. at least) for over a century now.

    Crackerjacks (or other snack foods) with prizes in the box.

    Breakfast Cereal with prizes in the box.

    Collectible Card/Miniature/Dice/etc games.

    Remember also that adding even a minor degree of skill to what is otherwise a form of gambling (throwing a baseball at milk bottles to win a prize at the faire for example) renders the endeavor legal even in states where gambling is completely illegal.

     

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, merely someone who has gambled, a lot, for a couple of decades now, in a large variety of circumstances. The history of gambling in the U.S. is fascinating to me. Definitely worth some research and reading.

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     



    Originally posted by heartless




    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour




    Originally posted by heartless



    You don't have to pay to enter the game. The keys can be acquired throw normal gameplay elements.





    I already covered that in my previous post. To expand: the "game" has to be defined and it can be argued that every box in itself contains a game. It can also be argued that keys hold a monetary value and that destruction/consumption of keys as a requirement to enter the game should be considered on equal status as "paying" to enter a game. 

     

    The overall point being, specially through the case with the assorted candies, that the law/regulations aren't always very simple and are at least interesting to me, personally. 




    The boxes themselves can be opened by butler golems which do not have a monetary value, bypassing the need for keys completely.


     

    I have seen a lot of arguements back and forth over the cash shop items and how you can obtain them in game.

    My question is this. How can A-net maintain profitability through it's cash shop while everything in the shop is also available in the game? I understand low drop rates. I also understand that the cash shop is more about convenience and all, but To be honest, from everything I have seen and read about the cash shop, I look at it and think, WTF is wrong here, It seems that A-Net shouldn't even bother with it. Even if you say Time VS money or "items of convenience", GW2 is already casual enough where it seems if you need that much more convenience than the game already provides.....Why are you even bothering to play GW2? What I mean is, The whole Cash Shop just feels so pointless.

    Most people have experience with how true F2P games operate and assume that GW2 is the same way. It's not. GW2 is a B2P game and that is how ANet will make the bulk of it's profit. ANet's business model does not solely depend on the cash shop to be profitable but various account and quality of life services available through the cash shop will guarantee them a bit of extra income, just like it did in GW1.

    image

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Member UncommonPosts: 1,332

    Originally posted by enoch420

    Originally posted by Atlan99

     

    Why do all you people keep saying you can't open the chests unless you buy keys???!!!! I mean you just said you can get keys as drops and then the very next paragraph you say it's repulsive that you have to buy keys??? WTF??? Let's go back to Guild Wars....you didn't get loot chests, but around the instanced world you'd run into chests on the ground that you'd need a lockpick for or the correct type of key for. These keys would drop, or you could buy them from merchants in cities. The drop rate on the keys were really low if you didn't want to buy them from a merchant....did you have to pay real money? No. Guess what, you still don't. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything with the current setup. It's available to people that just wanna get a chest open now rather than wait for a key drop. Am I a fanboi?? I don't think so, but I believe Anet has proven that they put their money where their mouths are. Impatient people can bit*h all they want, I'll just put the chests I can't open in my storage until I get the keys to open them. Simple as that. Another thing to think about is this, Anet isn't forcing you to support the devs that put all the time and effort into this game, but if you're anything like me, you'll but some stuff from the shop here and there, mainly out of want or a desire but also because it helps the devs by putting money on their pay checks. Quit crying all you babies that keep lying to yourselves about what's happening with keys....YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY IF YOU DON'T WANT! NUFF SAID!!!!

    Why because it's obvious that it's the way the sytem is designed.

    You have to have less keys drop than chests for it to work. That inconvenience has to be built into loot drops to get people to buy keys.

    Do you  have to buy the key? No. I even wrote that I will probably auction all chests and keys them all in my post.

    I don't like that they are tied to loot. I know you don't get this. Maybe you are used to playing CS games and are use to it.

    The fact remains.  If I don't pay for keys either through gems or in game money. I won't be able to get all the loot dropped by mobs. I personally don't like this. It bothers me. This will be the first game I played that has a CS tied to loot and I personally wish Arenanet would scrap this. 

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by enoch420

    Originally posted by Atlan99

     

    Why do all you people keep saying you can't open the chests unless you buy keys???!!!! I mean you just said you can get keys as drops and then the very next paragraph you say it's repulsive that you have to buy keys??? WTF??? Let's go back to Guild Wars....you didn't get loot chests, but around the instanced world you'd run into chests on the ground that you'd need a lockpick for or the correct type of key for. These keys would drop, or you could buy them from merchants in cities. The drop rate on the keys were really low if you didn't want to buy them from a merchant....did you have to pay real money? No. Guess what, you still don't. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything with the current setup. It's available to people that just wanna get a chest open now rather than wait for a key drop. Am I a fanboi?? I don't think so, but I believe Anet has proven that they put their money where their mouths are. Impatient people can bit*h all they want, I'll just put the chests I can't open in my storage until I get the keys to open them. Simple as that. Another thing to think about is this, Anet isn't forcing you to support the devs that put all the time and effort into this game, but if you're anything like me, you'll but some stuff from the shop here and there, mainly out of want or a desire but also because it helps the devs by putting money on their pay checks. Quit crying all you babies that keep lying to yourselves about what's happening with keys....YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY IF YOU DON'T WANT! NUFF SAID!!!!

    Why because it's obvious that it's the way the sytem is designed.

    You have to have less keys drop than chests for it to work. That inconvenience has to be built into loot drops to get people to buy keys.

    Do you  have to buy the key? No. I even wrote that I will probably auction all chests and keys them all in my post.

    I don't like that they are tied to loot. I know you don't get this. Maybe you are used to playing CS games and are use to it.

    The fact remains.  If I don't pay for keys either through gems or in game money. I won't be able to get all the loot dropped by mobs. I personally don't like this. It bothers me. This will be the first game I played that has a CS tied to loot and I personally wish Arenanet would scrap this. 

    Or you can, you know, use like the butler golem, man.

    image

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Member UncommonPosts: 1,332

    Originally posted by heartless

     

    Or you can, you know, use like the butler golem, man.

    Really?

    Did you have one in the last Closed beta event? How did you get it? How much did it cost if anything? Is it a permanent item? Is there any restrictions on it's use?

  • TerrorizorTerrorizor Member Posts: 326

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by enoch420

    Originally posted by Atlan99

     

    Why do all you people keep saying you can't open the chests unless you buy keys???!!!! I mean you just said you can get keys as drops and then the very next paragraph you say it's repulsive that you have to buy keys??? WTF??? Let's go back to Guild Wars....you didn't get loot chests, but around the instanced world you'd run into chests on the ground that you'd need a lockpick for or the correct type of key for. These keys would drop, or you could buy them from merchants in cities. The drop rate on the keys were really low if you didn't want to buy them from a merchant....did you have to pay real money? No. Guess what, you still don't. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything with the current setup. It's available to people that just wanna get a chest open now rather than wait for a key drop. Am I a fanboi?? I don't think so, but I believe Anet has proven that they put their money where their mouths are. Impatient people can bit*h all they want, I'll just put the chests I can't open in my storage until I get the keys to open them. Simple as that. Another thing to think about is this, Anet isn't forcing you to support the devs that put all the time and effort into this game, but if you're anything like me, you'll but some stuff from the shop here and there, mainly out of want or a desire but also because it helps the devs by putting money on their pay checks. Quit crying all you babies that keep lying to yourselves about what's happening with keys....YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY IF YOU DON'T WANT! NUFF SAID!!!!

    Why because it's obvious that it's the way the sytem is designed.

    You have to have less keys drop than chests for it to work. That inconvenience has to be built into loot drops to get people to buy keys.

    Do you  have to buy the key? No. I even wrote that I will probably auction all chests and keys them all in my post.

    I don't like that they are tied to loot. I know you don't get this. Maybe you are used to playing CS games and are use to it.

    The fact remains.  If I don't pay for keys either through gems or in game money. I won't be able to get all the loot dropped by mobs. I personally don't like this. It bothers me. This will be the first game I played that has a CS tied to loot and I personally wish Arenanet would scrap this. 

    ... Nobody gets to have everything that they want. That is what keeps people playing mmo's. Are you completely unable to see that the need for keys is the carrot that keeps people playing. Are you unable to understand the concept at all? You don't have to pay cash for them, you can play to get them.  Not having what you want makes you work to acheive it. ...

     

    I'll probably get banned for the post but it needed to be said.  If they have any respect for the truth, they can edit out what they feel is offensive.  I'm going to go ahead and ignore another person who doesn't deserve to share their opinion.

     

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Member UncommonPosts: 1,332

    Originally posted by Terrorizor

     

    Here is a thought. Grow up and put on your big boy pants. Nobody gets to have everything that they want. That is what keeps people playing mmo's. Are you completely unable to see that the need for keys is the carrot that keeps people playing. Are you unable to understand the concept at all? You don't have to pay cash for them, you can play to get them.  Not having what you want makes you work to acheive it. Someday you'll learn this or you'll end up living in a cardboard box.

     

    I'll probably get banned for the post but it needed to be said.  If they have any respect for the truth, they can edit out what they feel is offensive.  I'm going to go ahead and ignore another person who doesn't deserve to share their opinion.

     

    Here is another thought.

    You don't have to lash out and attack everyone, with whom you have a difference of opinion.

    Second I find it funny that you are trying to tie the cash shop with developing work ethic. I find it a stretch to say the least. I could see the marketing pitch. "It's not a Cash Shop, it's a system designed to build work ethic. If we didn't use it, you would be living in a cardboard box." I think linking the cash shop to self control would be an easier sell. But thats just my opinion.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by heartless

     

    Or you can, you know, use like the butler golem, man.

    Really?

    Did you have one in the last Closed beta event? How did you get it? How much did it cost if anything? Is it a permanent item? Is there any restrictions on it's use?

    Good reason to panic. I haven't seen level 30 content either, this game will obviusly fail!

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  • Atlan99Atlan99 Member UncommonPosts: 1,332

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by heartless

     

    Or you can, you know, use like the butler golem, man.

    Really?

    Did you have one in the last Closed beta event? How did you get it? How much did it cost if anything? Is it a permanent item? Is there any restrictions on it's use?

    Good reason to panic. I haven't seen level 30 content either, this game will obviusly fail!

    image

    I thought so. So you want me to use something you have no idea about. Why did you suggest it in the first place then?

  • rygard49rygard49 Member UncommonPosts: 973

    Originally posted by Terrorizor

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by enoch420

    Originally posted by Atlan99

     

    Why do all you people keep saying you can't open the chests unless you buy keys???!!!! I mean you just said you can get keys as drops and then the very next paragraph you say it's repulsive that you have to buy keys??? WTF??? Let's go back to Guild Wars....you didn't get loot chests, but around the instanced world you'd run into chests on the ground that you'd need a lockpick for or the correct type of key for. These keys would drop, or you could buy them from merchants in cities. The drop rate on the keys were really low if you didn't want to buy them from a merchant....did you have to pay real money? No. Guess what, you still don't. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything with the current setup. It's available to people that just wanna get a chest open now rather than wait for a key drop. Am I a fanboi?? I don't think so, but I believe Anet has proven that they put their money where their mouths are. Impatient people can bit*h all they want, I'll just put the chests I can't open in my storage until I get the keys to open them. Simple as that. Another thing to think about is this, Anet isn't forcing you to support the devs that put all the time and effort into this game, but if you're anything like me, you'll but some stuff from the shop here and there, mainly out of want or a desire but also because it helps the devs by putting money on their pay checks. Quit crying all you babies that keep lying to yourselves about what's happening with keys....YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY IF YOU DON'T WANT! NUFF SAID!!!!

    Why because it's obvious that it's the way the sytem is designed.

    You have to have less keys drop than chests for it to work. That inconvenience has to be built into loot drops to get people to buy keys.

    Do you  have to buy the key? No. I even wrote that I will probably auction all chests and keys them all in my post.

    I don't like that they are tied to loot. I know you don't get this. Maybe you are used to playing CS games and are use to it.

    The fact remains.  If I don't pay for keys either through gems or in game money. I won't be able to get all the loot dropped by mobs. I personally don't like this. It bothers me. This will be the first game I played that has a CS tied to loot and I personally wish Arenanet would scrap this. 

    Here is a thought. Grow up and put on your big boy pants. Nobody gets to have everything that they want. That is what keeps people playing mmo's. Are you completely unable to see that the need for keys is the carrot that keeps people playing. Are you unable to understand the concept at all? You don't have to pay cash for them, you can play to get them.  Not having what you want makes you work to acheive it. Someday you'll learn this or you'll end up living in a cardboard box.

     

    I'll probably get banned for the post but it needed to be said.  If they have any respect for the truth, they can edit out what they feel is offensive.  I'm going to go ahead and ignore another person who doesn't deserve to share their opinion.

     

    What he's saying is the chest drops are more frequent than the key drops. This means that if you don't ever purchase keys from the cash shop, you will never, ever, be able to open all of the chests that you get. In fact, in the entire playerbase of the game, there will never be more keys than chests without someone going to the cash shop to purchase them. This is by design, and this is what his problem is.

    It's not a carrot on a stick, and you've completely misinterpreted his point of view.

    Personally, I don't mind the key issue. It's a little cheesy, but it doesn't bug me. The guys are trying to make a buck like everyone else.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by heartless

     

    Or you can, you know, use like the butler golem, man.

    Really?

    Did you have one in the last Closed beta event? How did you get it? How much did it cost if anything? Is it a permanent item? Is there any restrictions on it's use?

    Good reason to panic. I haven't seen level 30 content either, this game will obviusly fail!

    image

    I thought so. So you want me to use something you have no idea about. Why did you suggest it in the first place then?

    No, I want you to stop complaining about things you don't have full information about.

    http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/preview-asuran-butler-golem/

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  • rygard49rygard49 Member UncommonPosts: 973

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by heartless

     

    Or you can, you know, use like the butler golem, man.

    Really?

    Did you have one in the last Closed beta event? How did you get it? How much did it cost if anything? Is it a permanent item? Is there any restrictions on it's use?

    Good reason to panic. I haven't seen level 30 content either, this game will obviusly fail!

    image

    I thought so. So you want me to use something you have no idea about. Why did you suggest it in the first place then?

    What's funny to me are the fanboys who are immediately hostile or mocking to a dissenting opinion, where if they just had a calm and reasonable response the topic would likely resolve and move on.

    You and I happen to have a differing opinion on this issue. I believe your view has merit, but I don't find it as concerning as you do. I think you're right that it's a tactic to get people into the cash shop, but I don't necessarily believe it's wrong of them to offer it.

    The only thing we can really do is not buy the keys and either auction or trash the boxes. I've heard conflicting reports, some say it's only fluff items and some say it's actual gear. If it's gear, that's a bummer, but it doesn't sway my desire to not give them more money than I have to.

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Member UncommonPosts: 1,332

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by heartless

     

    No, I want you to stop complaining about things you don't have full information about.

    By using things you know less about?

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