Yep, it more or less is the same as buying gold. Folks can argue that the player economy won't be corrupted because you are buying gold from other players, and it is not just being "created," and this may be true.
But the reality is that from YOUR, the player's, perspective, you are spending real money and getting gold. So basically, GW2, the PvE part of it and partially WvW, is a bit P2W.
And if you don't think it is a bit P2W...consider this. You can literally spend money to get max level without ever leaving your main city. How is this possible you ask? Simple. We know that you can get to level 80 from crafting alone. You simply get gold with real money, and then buy a crap ton of gathering materials for the AH and have at it. If what we have heard is correct, you should be able to just craft your way to level 80 with 0 time spent outside of the city.
All that said, while I'm not happy with the buying gold thing, I don't think it will ruin GW2. I think that it will make gear and crafting more trivial though, and I can't imagine the economy will be all that exciting since it is essentially a huge item shop with optional gold purchases. But other than that, the game will be fine. Structured PvP will be 100% unaffected by gen purchases, and hopefully WvW won't be affected too much.
In the end, I would have rather paid a sub...but I'm willing to deal with the gold buying.
Good argument on the crafting thing, but now let me ask you this...
Where are your skills?
You have 0 skill points, so you still have 0 skills. You have no weapon traits unlocked, you have 80 levels and traits over a level 0, but no skills, no abilities.
You still have to get out there and get thsoe skill points. If you have 0 weapon skills and 0 abilities, you won't be going to the level 80 zone and getting skills, you will get steam rolled by any mob out there. Heck you couldn't even do the levle 20 ones,you'd be stuck trying to get the starter zone skill points.
So while your point IS valid. I dare you to P2W level craft to 80, then instantaneously go to WvW. You might have cool armor, and some damn good traits. But you still have no 2-5 and 7-10 uses.
You are still behind.
yap. as i say isnt an advantage, is a BIG DISADVANTAGE to lvl up that way. dont see why someone want to do that, maybe just to be the first lvl80 on server (like if anyone care about that...)
Also, to the PvP aspect creslin, SPvP as you said won't be affected, there is just no real way it could...
WvW will be affected, for about the first month or two, people who buy gems, will have a tad more siege, but it's still restricted by supply. So while you could be carrying a shat ton of siege golem blueprints, how will you actually get them made? Even arrow carts or ballista's, it takes a decent amount of communication to get things made, and if being made so much, you are restricting the maps resources, and possibly could start to feel a lack of supply.
there are so many arguments/counter-arguments to every aspect of the game though. I'm not saying the game is perfect, but i'm saying it balances out very well. Where doubt is created, I see a check/balance put in place to keep it from getting overly exploited.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
I dont mind at all, if anything its to us gamers advantage. If it could be traded that means you dont have to take out your creditcard and rather earn it through game less money for me once again, thanks arenanet but maybe ill buy the gems idk yet to early...
Yep, it more or less is the same as buying gold. Folks can argue that the player economy won't be corrupted because you are buying gold from other players, and it is not just being "created," and this may be true.
But the reality is that from YOUR, the player's, perspective, you are spending real money and getting gold. So basically, GW2, the PvE part of it and partially WvW, is a bit P2W.
And if you don't think it is a bit P2W...consider this. You can literally spend money to get max level without ever leaving your main city. How is this possible you ask? Simple. We know that you can get to level 80 from crafting alone. You simply get gold with real money, and then buy a crap ton of gathering materials for the AH and have at it. If what we have heard is correct, you should be able to just craft your way to level 80 with 0 time spent outside of the city.
All that said, while I'm not happy with the buying gold thing, I don't think it will ruin GW2. I think that it will make gear and crafting more trivial though, and I can't imagine the economy will be all that exciting since it is essentially a huge item shop with optional gold purchases. But other than that, the game will be fine. Structured PvP will be 100% unaffected by gen purchases, and hopefully WvW won't be affected too much.
In the end, I would have rather paid a sub...but I'm willing to deal with the gold buying.
Good argument on the crafting thing, but now let me ask you this...
Where are your skills?
You have 0 skill points, so you still have 0 skills. You have no weapon traits unlocked, you have 80 levels and traits over a level 0, but no skills, no abilities.
You still have to get out there and get thsoe skill points. If you have 0 weapon skills and 0 abilities, you won't be going to the level 80 zone and getting skills, you will get steam rolled by any mob out there. Heck you couldn't even do the levle 20 ones,you'd be stuck trying to get the starter zone skill points.
So while your point IS valid. I dare you to P2W level craft to 80, then instantaneously go to WvW. You might have cool armor, and some damn good traits. But you still have no 2-5 and 7-10 uses.
You are still behind.
You have some points but uh....
You know he could just go into a levle 2 zone, get scaled to level 2, and kill the mostly easier mobs there to level weapons, right? Takes the same amount of time for a level 1 vs a level 80. It's based on number of kills while said weapon is equipped.
Is there theorycrafting supporting the idea that certain dyes increase your damage output while others improve your mitigation but we don't yet know which ones so we need to collect them all?
Red GOES FASTER!
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I've played multiple games which used a cash shop system exactly like what ArenaNet is doing here (and no, actually, EVE wasn't one of them).
The real result of this system is that it makes the cash shop accessible to people who don't want to spend money. It also cuts down the number of gold-sellers in game to a minimum, because the profit margin for the farmers is much lower than in other games.
To explain the last point: if you could choose between spending money on gold to both support the game as well as avoid the risk of a ban, versus going with a gold farmer whose presence deteriorates the quality of chat channels in-game... well, in my experience, most people choose the safe route. Especially since supply and demand flow winds up making it impractical for gold sellers to offer substantially better rates than what is available in-game - there is little reason to buy from them.
The third, and possibly most important point, is that fewer people get hacked in these games. Farmers are known to be some of the worst perpetrators of hacking in games, but if you take away the profit margin for them, and they'll go hack people in some other game instead. (Besides which, with the ease of gear progression in GW2, they will not make much of a profit even if they do hack you. Again, not worth their time.)
Yep, it more or less is the same as buying gold. Folks can argue that the player economy won't be corrupted because you are buying gold from other players, and it is not just being "created," and this may be true.
But the reality is that from YOUR, the player's, perspective, you are spending real money and getting gold. So basically, GW2, the PvE part of it and partially WvW, is a bit P2W.
And if you don't think it is a bit P2W...consider this. You can literally spend money to get max level without ever leaving your main city. How is this possible you ask? Simple. We know that you can get to level 80 from crafting alone. You simply get gold with real money, and then buy a crap ton of gathering materials for the AH and have at it. If what we have heard is correct, you should be able to just craft your way to level 80 with 0 time spent outside of the city.
All that said, while I'm not happy with the buying gold thing, I don't think it will ruin GW2. I think that it will make gear and crafting more trivial though, and I can't imagine the economy will be all that exciting since it is essentially a huge item shop with optional gold purchases. But other than that, the game will be fine. Structured PvP will be 100% unaffected by gen purchases, and hopefully WvW won't be affected too much.
In the end, I would have rather paid a sub...but I'm willing to deal with the gold buying.
Good argument on the crafting thing, but now let me ask you this...
Where are your skills?
You have 0 skill points, so you still have 0 skills. You have no weapon traits unlocked, you have 80 levels and traits over a level 0, but no skills, no abilities.
You still have to get out there and get thsoe skill points. If you have 0 weapon skills and 0 abilities, you won't be going to the level 80 zone and getting skills, you will get steam rolled by any mob out there. Heck you couldn't even do the levle 20 ones,you'd be stuck trying to get the starter zone skill points.
So while your point IS valid. I dare you to P2W level craft to 80, then instantaneously go to WvW. You might have cool armor, and some damn good traits. But you still have no 2-5 and 7-10 uses.
You are still behind.
You have some points but uh....
You know he could just go into a levle 2 zone, get scaled to level 2, and kill the mostly easier mobs there to level weapons, right? Takes the same amount of time for a level 1 vs a level 80. It's based on number of kills while said weapon is equipped.
O yeah i know, but let me point out the things that make it still not much of an advantage, and it's mostly based on things we don't yet know...
How long does it take to level to 80 from crafting? a day? a week? a month? We've got level 35+s in 2 BWE's.
Still doesn't have skills 7-10, which is about 30-40 skills points for a better set of traits, unless you go signet heavy or something. Which is valid, i'm just saying... won't get ALL those from starter zones, you still have time put into getting those skill points. It's not a craft level 80 and i win.
Only game mode it will make a difference is V8, and minimal at that. You will probably win most 1v1's, but given you just P2W'd you don't know your toon, and i'd wager a level 30-40 would make your day bad, cause he not only knows his class, but how to counter yours.
Plus in V8 how many 1v1's do you see? I see a bit cause i don't follow the zerg, but most people, not so much. So still, unless you do what i do, not much of an advatage on keep defense/assaults. If any at all, that even depends on class/build. If you're a dagger/dagger Ele... No advantage, or a Warrior, or most classes actualy. It won't be like DAoC where you have 60 people, and 10 of them are RR13 and they have the advantage because of that.
Those are the points I see, and those are how it balances out for me.
Plus the amount of cash spent.... I'd bet over 200 bucks, if not more.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Yep, it more or less is the same as buying gold. Folks can argue that the player economy won't be corrupted because you are buying gold from other players, and it is not just being "created," and this may be true.
But the reality is that from YOUR, the player's, perspective, you are spending real money and getting gold. So basically, GW2, the PvE part of it and partially WvW, is a bit P2W.
And if you don't think it is a bit P2W...consider this. You can literally spend money to get max level without ever leaving your main city. How is this possible you ask? Simple. We know that you can get to level 80 from crafting alone. You simply get gold with real money, and then buy a crap ton of gathering materials for the AH and have at it. If what we have heard is correct, you should be able to just craft your way to level 80 with 0 time spent outside of the city.
All that said, while I'm not happy with the buying gold thing, I don't think it will ruin GW2. I think that it will make gear and crafting more trivial though, and I can't imagine the economy will be all that exciting since it is essentially a huge item shop with optional gold purchases. But other than that, the game will be fine. Structured PvP will be 100% unaffected by gen purchases, and hopefully WvW won't be affected too much.
In the end, I would have rather paid a sub...but I'm willing to deal with the gold buying.
Good argument on the crafting thing, but now let me ask you this...
Where are your skills?
You have 0 skill points, so you still have 0 skills. You have no weapon traits unlocked, you have 80 levels and traits over a level 0, but no skills, no abilities.
You still have to get out there and get thsoe skill points. If you have 0 weapon skills and 0 abilities, you won't be going to the level 80 zone and getting skills, you will get steam rolled by any mob out there. Heck you couldn't even do the levle 20 ones,you'd be stuck trying to get the starter zone skill points.
So while your point IS valid. I dare you to P2W level craft to 80, then instantaneously go to WvW. You might have cool armor, and some damn good traits. But you still have no 2-5 and 7-10 uses.
You are still behind.
You have some points but uh....
You know he could just go into a levle 2 zone, get scaled to level 2, and kill the mostly easier mobs there to level weapons, right? Takes the same amount of time for a level 1 vs a level 80. It's based on number of kills while said weapon is equipped.
O yeah i know, but let me point out the things that make it still not much of an advantage, and it's mostly based on things we don't yet know...
How long does it take to level to 80 from crafting? a day? a week? a month? We've got level 35+s in 2 BWE's.
Still doesn't have skills 7-10, which is about 30-40 skills points for a better set of traits, unless you go signet heavy or something. Which is valid, i'm just saying... won't get ALL those from starter zones, you still have time put into getting those skill points. It's not a craft level 80 and i win.
Only game mode it will make a difference is V8, and minimal at that. You will probably win most 1v1's, but given you just P2W'd you don't know your toon, and i'd wager a level 30-40 would make your day bad, cause he not only knows his class, but how to counter yours.
Plus in V8 how many 1v1's do you see? I see a bit cause i don't follow the zerg, but most people, not so much. So still, unless you do what i do, not much of an advatage on keep defense/assaults. If any at all, that even depends on class/build. If you're a dagger/dagger Ele... No advantage, or a Warrior, or most classes actualy. It won't be like DAoC where you have 60 people, and 10 of them are RR13 and they have the advantage because of that.
Those are the points I see, and those are how it balances out for me.
Plus the amount of cash spent.... I'd bet over 200 bucks, if not more.
A few things...
First, you get skill points from leveling up alone...so you would have skills. You would not have ALL of them, but you should have more than enough skill points to easily fill out your bar.
And weapon skills, yeah you still need to unlock them, but this can be done very quickly, and I think you would probably have a big advantage as a level 80 with maxed out gear in a level 1 zone, even with the downscaling.
Don't get me wrong, I think skipping the game and getting level 80 would be a terrible idea, but the fact is that you could do it with the way the system is now. I don't think it's a huge deal, but it's there, and I wouldn't be surprised if some genius does it.
Really, the only big potential worrying thing I see about gold buying is WvW. I know you need supply to build things, but when I played beta, I was able to turn the tide of battle by using gems to get gold for trebuchets. Siege engines can make or break your team in WvW...if the blueprints are priced very high, then a server spending money for gold may have an advantage over a server that is not doing that. I hope this isn't a problem, but it could be.
Yep, it more or less is the same as buying gold. Folks can argue that the player economy won't be corrupted because you are buying gold from other players, and it is not just being "created," and this may be true.
But the reality is that from YOUR, the player's, perspective, you are spending real money and getting gold. So basically, GW2, the PvE part of it and partially WvW, is a bit P2W.
And if you don't think it is a bit P2W...consider this. You can literally spend money to get max level without ever leaving your main city. How is this possible you ask? Simple. We know that you can get to level 80 from crafting alone. You simply get gold with real money, and then buy a crap ton of gathering materials for the AH and have at it. If what we have heard is correct, you should be able to just craft your way to level 80 with 0 time spent outside of the city.
All that said, while I'm not happy with the buying gold thing, I don't think it will ruin GW2. I think that it will make gear and crafting more trivial though, and I can't imagine the economy will be all that exciting since it is essentially a huge item shop with optional gold purchases. But other than that, the game will be fine. Structured PvP will be 100% unaffected by gen purchases, and hopefully WvW won't be affected too much.
In the end, I would have rather paid a sub...but I'm willing to deal with the gold buying.
And now I'm 80 without ever leaving my capital city. What have I won? Will they make me honorary mayor of Divinity's Reach now? Can I levy a tax against other players for trading in my city? Can I do ANYTHING to adversely affect my fellow players? No? So what's the damned point speed leveling?
This is only a problem for people who can't be happy keeping their noses in their own business and instead, feel it necessary to look into everyone else's. I don't give a flying f*** how people choose to play the game because it doesn't affect the way I choose to play it. If someone wants to dump $50 into the shop to buy all the mats they need to level to 80 in a couple of hours, good for them. It's not like they are going to hit the cap and steal all the damned content before I can reach it. Their fast tracking is IRRELEVANT to my game experience. So, why should I care again? Oh right --- it jus' ain't fair.
Yep, it more or less is the same as buying gold. Folks can argue that the player economy won't be corrupted because you are buying gold from other players, and it is not just being "created," and this may be true.
But the reality is that from YOUR, the player's, perspective, you are spending real money and getting gold. So basically, GW2, the PvE part of it and partially WvW, is a bit P2W.
And if you don't think it is a bit P2W...consider this. You can literally spend money to get max level without ever leaving your main city. How is this possible you ask? Simple. We know that you can get to level 80 from crafting alone. You simply get gold with real money, and then buy a crap ton of gathering materials for the AH and have at it. If what we have heard is correct, you should be able to just craft your way to level 80 with 0 time spent outside of the city.
All that said, while I'm not happy with the buying gold thing, I don't think it will ruin GW2. I think that it will make gear and crafting more trivial though, and I can't imagine the economy will be all that exciting since it is essentially a huge item shop with optional gold purchases. But other than that, the game will be fine. Structured PvP will be 100% unaffected by gen purchases, and hopefully WvW won't be affected too much.
In the end, I would have rather paid a sub...but I'm willing to deal with the gold buying.
Good argument on the crafting thing, but now let me ask you this...
Where are your skills?
You have 0 skill points, so you still have 0 skills. You have no weapon traits unlocked, you have 80 levels and traits over a level 0, but no skills, no abilities.
You still have to get out there and get thsoe skill points. If you have 0 weapon skills and 0 abilities, you won't be going to the level 80 zone and getting skills, you will get steam rolled by any mob out there. Heck you couldn't even do the levle 20 ones,you'd be stuck trying to get the starter zone skill points.
So while your point IS valid. I dare you to P2W level craft to 80, then instantaneously go to WvW. You might have cool armor, and some damn good traits. But you still have no 2-5 and 7-10 uses.
You are still behind.
You have some points but uh....
You know he could just go into a levle 2 zone, get scaled to level 2, and kill the mostly easier mobs there to level weapons, right? Takes the same amount of time for a level 1 vs a level 80. It's based on number of kills while said weapon is equipped.
O yeah i know, but let me point out the things that make it still not much of an advantage, and it's mostly based on things we don't yet know...
How long does it take to level to 80 from crafting? a day? a week? a month? We've got level 35+s in 2 BWE's.
Still doesn't have skills 7-10, which is about 30-40 skills points for a better set of traits, unless you go signet heavy or something. Which is valid, i'm just saying... won't get ALL those from starter zones, you still have time put into getting those skill points. It's not a craft level 80 and i win.
Only game mode it will make a difference is V8, and minimal at that. You will probably win most 1v1's, but given you just P2W'd you don't know your toon, and i'd wager a level 30-40 would make your day bad, cause he not only knows his class, but how to counter yours.
Plus in V8 how many 1v1's do you see? I see a bit cause i don't follow the zerg, but most people, not so much. So still, unless you do what i do, not much of an advatage on keep defense/assaults. If any at all, that even depends on class/build. If you're a dagger/dagger Ele... No advantage, or a Warrior, or most classes actualy. It won't be like DAoC where you have 60 people, and 10 of them are RR13 and they have the advantage because of that.
Those are the points I see, and those are how it balances out for me.
Plus the amount of cash spent.... I'd bet over 200 bucks, if not more.
A few things...
First, you get skill points from leveling up alone...so you would have skills. You would not have ALL of them, but you should have more than enough skill points to easily fill out your bar.
And weapon skills, yeah you still need to unlock them, but this can be done very quickly, and I think you would probably have a big advantage as a level 80 with maxed out gear in a level 1 zone, even with the downscaling.
Don't get me wrong, I think skipping the game and getting level 80 would be a terrible idea, but the fact is that you could do it with the way the system is now. I don't think it's a huge deal, but it's there, and I wouldn't be surprised if some genius does it.
Really, the only big potential worrying thing I see about gold buying is WvW. I know you need supply to build things, but when I played beta, I was able to turn the tide of battle by using gems to get gold for trebuchets. Siege engines can make or break your team in WvW...if the blueprints are priced very high, then a server spending money for gold may have an advantage over a server that is not doing that. I hope this isn't a problem, but it could be.
You sure you get skill points just for leveling? If i got some by the time i hit level 21 it was maybe 1 or two, so is it maybe every 10 levels? I know it isn't every level, there is no way i missed that haha.
And i agree with you on WvW, but i think after a month or two, and people are starting to get a steady income, it won't make nearly the impact on WvW as beta's did. Plus I know on my server, it took a bit to get these things made, especially Trebs. And once you run your castle out of supply, your a sitting there watching map for the next Dolyak.
Anyways, if i may say something, kudos for having a conversation, not an argument
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
This is really, really old news. This has been known about since the cash shop was announced, which was before even BWE1.
I was one of the most vocal opponents to the cash shop(gem store, black lion trading company - same thing) as I was worried that people with a fat wallet would be able to buy advantage in PvE or WvW - however - since playing the BWEs my fears have been mostly allayed as all the items in the cash shop(so far) seem to be fluff items that cant really give you any advantage.
If this changes....trust me.... I wil be the firs to shout about it, but as things stand at the moment they are ok. If people want to spend $$ to get some pretty clothes or mini pets, thats fine. Just nothing that can give an advantage.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Originally posted by BadSpock What would a max level toon with "powerful" gear really accomplish though?PvE - content scales in level (up down) and difficulty based on # of players and there are no raids or anything for competitive PvE...WvW - you may have an advantage 1vs1 but how often do you find 1v1 in OWPVP? Never?sPvP - gear/level don't matter as all is equalized.Go ahead, give Anet your $ for no real advantage lol thanks for supporting the game!
Isn't that the point? People are more likely to spend money on fluff items. Purchases are guilt free.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You'll either buy gold for real money from a gold-farmer and risk getting banned, or you'll buy it from another player for gems. If the player wants to buy gems for gold and you want to buy gold for gems, then what's the problem?
Exactly. Beating a dead horse with this one. There was tons of uproar about this "gold buying" and P2W arguments once the gems for gold was announced before the BWE happened. But since then, everyone that has actually played the game knows that it has no advatange to actual gameplay. No, not even in V8.
The siege weapon argument has been done before, and honestly holds no weight. I never spent a single gem for gold to get siege weapons, yet i always carried a couple rams, arrow carts and even a treb or cata with me at all times. All siege weapons are extremely cheap except for the siege golem, and they are all earnable for free very easily. They drop from mobs and i usually gained at least one free blueprint for every 2-3 towers/keeps i helped to take. Also, if youre into jumping puzzles, the chests at the end give blueprints for free as well as gear, so thats always an option as well. We also know, the blueprint is meaningless without supply, and anyone who has done alot of V8 will tell you supply is not endless. And if youre the attacker, and hold very little of the map, those siege weapon blueprints are useless to you.
For the rest, well its all common sense to anyone who actually played. Skipping levels gets you nowhere fast. The gear upgrades will help, but only in PvE, not PvP. You still have to go out and earn your skill points and weapon skills. Sure it doesnt take long, but it still has to be done. In sPvP, well theres no ifs or buts about it, levels and gear are meaningless 100% as they dont even come into play here. And in OWPvP (V8) again its a numbers game.
At level 15, my lifetap specced necro could win 1v3 pretty easily, and could slow down or delay 1v8 long enough for a zerg to take them down. At level 35, my Elementalist could defend a tower solo against a zerg of 10-15 with no issues at all. V8 is more player skill and player numbers, than it is about gold, and gear plays a very minor role if any at all.
Try to justify it all you want, but gold for gems has zero impact on gameplay. Its purely fluff and convenience and you will get no advantage at all for your money. If you want a P2W game, try anything done by PWE or AGE, even some Frogster games, but not NCSoft or Anet. Even Aion with F2P and cash shop has zero P2W, cash shop is not an "iwin" button.
Yep, it more or less is the same as buying gold. Folks can argue that the player economy won't be corrupted because you are buying gold from other players, and it is not just being "created," and this may be true.
But the reality is that from YOUR, the player's, perspective, you are spending real money and getting gold. So basically, GW2, the PvE part of it and partially WvW, is a bit P2W.
And if you don't think it is a bit P2W...consider this. You can literally spend money to get max level without ever leaving your main city. How is this possible you ask? Simple. We know that you can get to level 80 from crafting alone. You simply get gold with real money, and then buy a crap ton of gathering materials for the AH and have at it. If what we have heard is correct, you should be able to just craft your way to level 80 with 0 time spent outside of the city.
All that said, while I'm not happy with the buying gold thing, I don't think it will ruin GW2. I think that it will make gear and crafting more trivial though, and I can't imagine the economy will be all that exciting since it is essentially a huge item shop with optional gold purchases. But other than that, the game will be fine. Structured PvP will be 100% unaffected by gen purchases, and hopefully WvW won't be affected too much.
In the end, I would have rather paid a sub...but I'm willing to deal with the gold buying.
Good argument on the crafting thing, but now let me ask you this...
Where are your skills?
You have 0 skill points, so you still have 0 skills. You have no weapon traits unlocked, you have 80 levels and traits over a level 0, but no skills, no abilities.
You still have to get out there and get thsoe skill points. If you have 0 weapon skills and 0 abilities, you won't be going to the level 80 zone and getting skills, you will get steam rolled by any mob out there. Heck you couldn't even do the levle 20 ones,you'd be stuck trying to get the starter zone skill points.
So while your point IS valid. I dare you to P2W level craft to 80, then instantaneously go to WvW. You might have cool armor, and some damn good traits. But you still have no 2-5 and 7-10 uses.
You are still behind.
You have some points but uh....
You know he could just go into a levle 2 zone, get scaled to level 2, and kill the mostly easier mobs there to level weapons, right? Takes the same amount of time for a level 1 vs a level 80. It's based on number of kills while said weapon is equipped.
O yeah i know, but let me point out the things that make it still not much of an advantage, and it's mostly based on things we don't yet know...
How long does it take to level to 80 from crafting? a day? a week? a month? We've got level 35+s in 2 BWE's.
Still doesn't have skills 7-10, which is about 30-40 skills points for a better set of traits, unless you go signet heavy or something. Which is valid, i'm just saying... won't get ALL those from starter zones, you still have time put into getting those skill points. It's not a craft level 80 and i win.
Only game mode it will make a difference is V8, and minimal at that. You will probably win most 1v1's, but given you just P2W'd you don't know your toon, and i'd wager a level 30-40 would make your day bad, cause he not only knows his class, but how to counter yours.
Plus in V8 how many 1v1's do you see? I see a bit cause i don't follow the zerg, but most people, not so much. So still, unless you do what i do, not much of an advatage on keep defense/assaults. If any at all, that even depends on class/build. If you're a dagger/dagger Ele... No advantage, or a Warrior, or most classes actualy. It won't be like DAoC where you have 60 people, and 10 of them are RR13 and they have the advantage because of that.
Those are the points I see, and those are how it balances out for me.
Plus the amount of cash spent.... I'd bet over 200 bucks, if not more.
A few things...
First, you get skill points from leveling up alone...so you would have skills. You would not have ALL of them, but you should have more than enough skill points to easily fill out your bar.
And weapon skills, yeah you still need to unlock them, but this can be done very quickly, and I think you would probably have a big advantage as a level 80 with maxed out gear in a level 1 zone, even with the downscaling.
Don't get me wrong, I think skipping the game and getting level 80 would be a terrible idea, but the fact is that you could do it with the way the system is now. I don't think it's a huge deal, but it's there, and I wouldn't be surprised if some genius does it.
Really, the only big potential worrying thing I see about gold buying is WvW. I know you need supply to build things, but when I played beta, I was able to turn the tide of battle by using gems to get gold for trebuchets. Siege engines can make or break your team in WvW...if the blueprints are priced very high, then a server spending money for gold may have an advantage over a server that is not doing that. I hope this isn't a problem, but it could be.
You sure you get skill points just for leveling? If i got some by the time i hit level 21 it was maybe 1 or two, so is it maybe every 10 levels? I know it isn't every level, there is no way i missed that haha.
And i agree with you on WvW, but i think after a month or two, and people are starting to get a steady income, it won't make nearly the impact on WvW as beta's did. Plus I know on my server, it took a bit to get these things made, especially Trebs. And once you run your castle out of supply, your a sitting there watching map for the next Dolyak.
Anyways, if i may say something, kudos for having a conversation, not an argument
I'm pretty sure you get them for leveling but not 100%. I think I remember getting a skill point at like level 12 when I had 0 previously and didn't do any skill challenges.
Yeah and WvW...I think you're right. Hopefully with some time gold buying won't play a big part. So long as supply, and not blueprints, are always the limiting factor in WvW, then we won't have a problem. But if blueprints become the limiting factor because of cost, then gold buying will surely make a difference.
I guess my view is that GW2 does have some P2W stuff in it. But at the same time, it has a lot of safeguards that stop it from running rampant. I think they are trying to balance the two goals of having a cash shop with stuff that is actually desireable, but not having that desireable stuff break your game. I think that's a difficult tightrope to walk, but I hope that ANet succeeds in it.
Either way, I will be playing GW2, not buying any P2W stuff with real money, and loving it .
Yep, it more or less is the same as buying gold. Folks can argue that the player economy won't be corrupted because you are buying gold from other players, and it is not just being "created," and this may be true.
But the reality is that from YOUR, the player's, perspective, you are spending real money and getting gold. So basically, GW2, the PvE part of it and partially WvW, is a bit P2W.
And if you don't think it is a bit P2W...consider this. You can literally spend money to get max level without ever leaving your main city. How is this possible you ask? Simple. We know that you can get to level 80 from crafting alone. You simply get gold with real money, and then buy a crap ton of gathering materials for the AH and have at it. If what we have heard is correct, you should be able to just craft your way to level 80 with 0 time spent outside of the city.
All that said, while I'm not happy with the buying gold thing, I don't think it will ruin GW2. I think that it will make gear and crafting more trivial though, and I can't imagine the economy will be all that exciting since it is essentially a huge item shop with optional gold purchases. But other than that, the game will be fine. Structured PvP will be 100% unaffected by gen purchases, and hopefully WvW won't be affected too much.
In the end, I would have rather paid a sub...but I'm willing to deal with the gold buying.
And now I'm 80 without ever leaving my capital city. What have I won? Will they make me honorary mayor of Divinity's Reach now? Can I levy a tax against other players for trading in my city? Can I do ANYTHING to adversely affect my fellow players? No? So what's the damned point speed leveling?
This is only a problem for people who can't be happy keeping their noses in their own business and instead, feel it necessary to look into everyone else's. I don't give a flying f*** how people choose to play the game because it doesn't affect the way I choose to play it. If someone wants to dump $50 into the shop to buy all the mats they need to level to 80 in a couple of hours, good for them. It's not like they are going to hit the cap and steal all the damned content before I can reach it. Their fast tracking is IRRELEVANT to my game experience. So, why should I care again? Oh right --- it jus' ain't fair.
I'm actually with you. The only time that I "care" when it comes to RMT is if it influences the game design in a negative way.
From what I have seen, GW2 does not seem to have this failing. It has RMT, but you don't really even need it. Exp gain is pretty fast, so exp boosters are completely unnecessary, and you have plenty of inventory space if you get bags, so you don't really need to buy more space. These are just a few examples, but the whole game seems to be unaffected by the presence of RMT...it is good as is.
For an example of a game that seems negatively influenced by RMT though, I think D3 works. D3 is basically designed to force you into the auction house. The most difficult modes on the game basically REQUIRE gear that is best obtained by actually beating the levels that you need the gear to beat. So your best option is simply to buy it on the AH from players that already got it.
Also, the AH makes gear so accessible that there is basically no thrill in finding stuff anymore...because you know that the AH will already have it. And for a game predicated on random loot drops...this is a bad thing.
This is what I mean by influencing game design in a negative way...it's when the game is designed in order to maximize profit from RMT, instead of being designed to simply be an awesome game.
Is there theorycrafting supporting the idea that certain dyes increase your damage output while others improve your mitigation but we don't yet know which ones so we need to collect them all?
Is there theorycrafting supporting the idea that certain dyes increase your damage output while others improve your mitigation but we don't yet know which ones so we need to collect them all?
Red GOES FASTER!
Green makes you horny
....
no thats m&m's sorry.
Yellow makes you run away like a coward?
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
5. As of BWE 2, the only way to obtain town clothes or minis was to purchase them from the gem shop. Will some town clothes or minis be obtainable as in-game rewards (say, for achievements or as mini-game prizes) when the game launches, or will they be restricted to the cash shop only?
Eric: At the moment, our plan for town clothes and minis is that they are only available via the Black Lion Trading Post (formerly, the Gem Store). There are, of course, some exceptions to this for things like the collector’s edition and other promotional giveaways. One other thing to note is that players are able to use in-game gold to trade for gems with other players via the exchange, so a player does not necessarily need to use cash to acquire these items.
I highlighted the part that concerns me in red. If you can buy gems for real money and trade them with other players for gold, isn´t that the exact same thing as buying gold?
I mean, if I have say 3000 gold, and my friend has 3000 gems he bought for 10 euro´s ( I don´t know the exact costs) and then trades the gems to my account for 3000 gold. In my speculations that´s buying gold for money, but now the goldseller gets gems and ArenaNet gets the money.
Don't see the problem on this one. This is a method used already in Eve which completely killed the gold farmers market in that game, added to the ability to like LOTRO in a sense, being about to buy things in game for the shop without having to pay real money is actually a bonus considering how yes there are some people who are stuck at home, unable to work, and have little or fixed incomes who would like to play as a pass time. This gives them a wider audience and gives them a method if stopping farming in it's tracks.
The third, and possibly most important point, is that fewer people get hacked in these games. Farmers are known to be some of the worst perpetrators of hacking in games, but if you take away the profit margin for them, and they'll go hack people in some other game instead. (Besides which, with the ease of gear progression in GW2, they will not make much of a profit even if they do hack you. Again, not worth their time.)
Yes it's gold farming hackers. It must be.
It couldn't be some dumbass responding to an e-mail they got, that told them to hand over their personal information for account verification purposes.
Did they ever get their $10 million dollars from that nice Nigerian who just wanted to share his wealth?
The third, and possibly most important point, is that fewer people get hacked in these games. Farmers are known to be some of the worst perpetrators of hacking in games, but if you take away the profit margin for them, and they'll go hack people in some other game instead. (Besides which, with the ease of gear progression in GW2, they will not make much of a profit even if they do hack you. Again, not worth their time.)
Yes it's gold farming hackers. It must be.
It couldn't be some dumbass responding to an e-mail they got, that told them to hand over their personal information for account verification purposes.
Did they ever get their $10 million dollars from that nice Nigerian who just wanted to share his wealth?
Replace the word "hacked" with "compromised" and I think you'll find you agree with me.
Phishing attempts are just one common way to gain access to accounts.
Oh, and also notice my use of the word "fewer" there. I didn't say hacking/compromising would stop, I said it would happen to fewer people. This is true if only by virtue of the fact that less people would be actively trying.
Anyone knows how many fully geared lv20s, a fully geared lv80 can take on in WvW?
Depends on player skill. A lvl20 can defeat a level 80 provided he is better at playing his prof.
Equally skilled, assuming both "know" their class. Another related question is: is there a generator where you can see the stats of a fully geared lv20 and fully geared lv80? Because if so, you can check how much % more damage the lv80 does compared to the lv20 against equal target and how much % less damage the lv80 takes compared to the lv20.
Pay ---> Recieve Gems ---> Trade for gold ---> Buy the best items ---> Buy WvWvW weapons ---> Win
Now by my math paying seems to have a direct correlation to winning. Doesn't matter which way you spin it in the end the more cash you spend the better off you are going to be. I don't necessarily hate the idea, as I have seen it done in much worse ways, I just don't like the whole concept even with the arguments about third parties doing it anyway.
Comments
Also, to the PvP aspect creslin, SPvP as you said won't be affected, there is just no real way it could...
WvW will be affected, for about the first month or two, people who buy gems, will have a tad more siege, but it's still restricted by supply. So while you could be carrying a shat ton of siege golem blueprints, how will you actually get them made? Even arrow carts or ballista's, it takes a decent amount of communication to get things made, and if being made so much, you are restricting the maps resources, and possibly could start to feel a lack of supply.
there are so many arguments/counter-arguments to every aspect of the game though. I'm not saying the game is perfect, but i'm saying it balances out very well. Where doubt is created, I see a check/balance put in place to keep it from getting overly exploited.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
I dont mind at all, if anything its to us gamers advantage. If it could be traded that means you dont have to take out your creditcard and rather earn it through game
less money for me once again, thanks arenanet but maybe ill buy the gems idk yet to early...
You have some points but uh....
You know he could just go into a levle 2 zone, get scaled to level 2, and kill the mostly easier mobs there to level weapons, right? Takes the same amount of time for a level 1 vs a level 80. It's based on number of kills while said weapon is equipped.
Red GOES FASTER!
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
another same old same old thread......pointless just monotonies till release lol
I've played multiple games which used a cash shop system exactly like what ArenaNet is doing here (and no, actually, EVE wasn't one of them).
The real result of this system is that it makes the cash shop accessible to people who don't want to spend money. It also cuts down the number of gold-sellers in game to a minimum, because the profit margin for the farmers is much lower than in other games.
To explain the last point: if you could choose between spending money on gold to both support the game as well as avoid the risk of a ban, versus going with a gold farmer whose presence deteriorates the quality of chat channels in-game... well, in my experience, most people choose the safe route. Especially since supply and demand flow winds up making it impractical for gold sellers to offer substantially better rates than what is available in-game - there is little reason to buy from them.
The third, and possibly most important point, is that fewer people get hacked in these games. Farmers are known to be some of the worst perpetrators of hacking in games, but if you take away the profit margin for them, and they'll go hack people in some other game instead. (Besides which, with the ease of gear progression in GW2, they will not make much of a profit even if they do hack you. Again, not worth their time.)
O yeah i know, but let me point out the things that make it still not much of an advantage, and it's mostly based on things we don't yet know...
How long does it take to level to 80 from crafting? a day? a week? a month? We've got level 35+s in 2 BWE's.
Still doesn't have skills 7-10, which is about 30-40 skills points for a better set of traits, unless you go signet heavy or something. Which is valid, i'm just saying... won't get ALL those from starter zones, you still have time put into getting those skill points. It's not a craft level 80 and i win.
Only game mode it will make a difference is V8, and minimal at that. You will probably win most 1v1's, but given you just P2W'd you don't know your toon, and i'd wager a level 30-40 would make your day bad, cause he not only knows his class, but how to counter yours.
Plus in V8 how many 1v1's do you see? I see a bit cause i don't follow the zerg, but most people, not so much. So still, unless you do what i do, not much of an advatage on keep defense/assaults. If any at all, that even depends on class/build. If you're a dagger/dagger Ele... No advantage, or a Warrior, or most classes actualy. It won't be like DAoC where you have 60 people, and 10 of them are RR13 and they have the advantage because of that.
Those are the points I see, and those are how it balances out for me.
Plus the amount of cash spent.... I'd bet over 200 bucks, if not more.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
A few things...
First, you get skill points from leveling up alone...so you would have skills. You would not have ALL of them, but you should have more than enough skill points to easily fill out your bar.
And weapon skills, yeah you still need to unlock them, but this can be done very quickly, and I think you would probably have a big advantage as a level 80 with maxed out gear in a level 1 zone, even with the downscaling.
Don't get me wrong, I think skipping the game and getting level 80 would be a terrible idea, but the fact is that you could do it with the way the system is now. I don't think it's a huge deal, but it's there, and I wouldn't be surprised if some genius does it.
Really, the only big potential worrying thing I see about gold buying is WvW. I know you need supply to build things, but when I played beta, I was able to turn the tide of battle by using gems to get gold for trebuchets. Siege engines can make or break your team in WvW...if the blueprints are priced very high, then a server spending money for gold may have an advantage over a server that is not doing that. I hope this isn't a problem, but it could be.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
And now I'm 80 without ever leaving my capital city. What have I won? Will they make me honorary mayor of Divinity's Reach now? Can I levy a tax against other players for trading in my city? Can I do ANYTHING to adversely affect my fellow players? No? So what's the damned point speed leveling?
This is only a problem for people who can't be happy keeping their noses in their own business and instead, feel it necessary to look into everyone else's. I don't give a flying f*** how people choose to play the game because it doesn't affect the way I choose to play it. If someone wants to dump $50 into the shop to buy all the mats they need to level to 80 in a couple of hours, good for them. It's not like they are going to hit the cap and steal all the damned content before I can reach it. Their fast tracking is IRRELEVANT to my game experience. So, why should I care again? Oh right --- it jus' ain't fair.
You sure you get skill points just for leveling? If i got some by the time i hit level 21 it was maybe 1 or two, so is it maybe every 10 levels? I know it isn't every level, there is no way i missed that haha.
And i agree with you on WvW, but i think after a month or two, and people are starting to get a steady income, it won't make nearly the impact on WvW as beta's did. Plus I know on my server, it took a bit to get these things made, especially Trebs. And once you run your castle out of supply, your a sitting there watching map for the next Dolyak.
Anyways, if i may say something, kudos for having a conversation, not an argument
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
This is really, really old news. This has been known about since the cash shop was announced, which was before even BWE1.
I was one of the most vocal opponents to the cash shop(gem store, black lion trading company - same thing) as I was worried that people with a fat wallet would be able to buy advantage in PvE or WvW - however - since playing the BWEs my fears have been mostly allayed as all the items in the cash shop(so far) seem to be fluff items that cant really give you any advantage.
If this changes....trust me.... I wil be the firs to shout about it, but as things stand at the moment they are ok. If people want to spend $$ to get some pretty clothes or mini pets, thats fine. Just nothing that can give an advantage.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Isn't that the point? People are more likely to spend money on fluff items. Purchases are guilt free.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You'll either buy gold for real money from a gold-farmer and risk getting banned, or you'll buy it from another player for gems. If the player wants to buy gems for gold and you want to buy gold for gems, then what's the problem?
Exactly. Beating a dead horse with this one. There was tons of uproar about this "gold buying" and P2W arguments once the gems for gold was announced before the BWE happened. But since then, everyone that has actually played the game knows that it has no advatange to actual gameplay. No, not even in V8.
The siege weapon argument has been done before, and honestly holds no weight. I never spent a single gem for gold to get siege weapons, yet i always carried a couple rams, arrow carts and even a treb or cata with me at all times. All siege weapons are extremely cheap except for the siege golem, and they are all earnable for free very easily. They drop from mobs and i usually gained at least one free blueprint for every 2-3 towers/keeps i helped to take. Also, if youre into jumping puzzles, the chests at the end give blueprints for free as well as gear, so thats always an option as well. We also know, the blueprint is meaningless without supply, and anyone who has done alot of V8 will tell you supply is not endless. And if youre the attacker, and hold very little of the map, those siege weapon blueprints are useless to you.
For the rest, well its all common sense to anyone who actually played. Skipping levels gets you nowhere fast. The gear upgrades will help, but only in PvE, not PvP. You still have to go out and earn your skill points and weapon skills. Sure it doesnt take long, but it still has to be done. In sPvP, well theres no ifs or buts about it, levels and gear are meaningless 100% as they dont even come into play here. And in OWPvP (V8) again its a numbers game.
At level 15, my lifetap specced necro could win 1v3 pretty easily, and could slow down or delay 1v8 long enough for a zerg to take them down. At level 35, my Elementalist could defend a tower solo against a zerg of 10-15 with no issues at all. V8 is more player skill and player numbers, than it is about gold, and gear plays a very minor role if any at all.
Try to justify it all you want, but gold for gems has zero impact on gameplay. Its purely fluff and convenience and you will get no advantage at all for your money. If you want a P2W game, try anything done by PWE or AGE, even some Frogster games, but not NCSoft or Anet. Even Aion with F2P and cash shop has zero P2W, cash shop is not an "iwin" button.
I'm pretty sure you get them for leveling but not 100%. I think I remember getting a skill point at like level 12 when I had 0 previously and didn't do any skill challenges.
Yeah and WvW...I think you're right. Hopefully with some time gold buying won't play a big part. So long as supply, and not blueprints, are always the limiting factor in WvW, then we won't have a problem. But if blueprints become the limiting factor because of cost, then gold buying will surely make a difference.
I guess my view is that GW2 does have some P2W stuff in it. But at the same time, it has a lot of safeguards that stop it from running rampant. I think they are trying to balance the two goals of having a cash shop with stuff that is actually desireable, but not having that desireable stuff break your game. I think that's a difficult tightrope to walk, but I hope that ANet succeeds in it.
Either way, I will be playing GW2, not buying any P2W stuff with real money, and loving it
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I'm actually with you. The only time that I "care" when it comes to RMT is if it influences the game design in a negative way.
From what I have seen, GW2 does not seem to have this failing. It has RMT, but you don't really even need it. Exp gain is pretty fast, so exp boosters are completely unnecessary, and you have plenty of inventory space if you get bags, so you don't really need to buy more space. These are just a few examples, but the whole game seems to be unaffected by the presence of RMT...it is good as is.
For an example of a game that seems negatively influenced by RMT though, I think D3 works. D3 is basically designed to force you into the auction house. The most difficult modes on the game basically REQUIRE gear that is best obtained by actually beating the levels that you need the gear to beat. So your best option is simply to buy it on the AH from players that already got it.
Also, the AH makes gear so accessible that there is basically no thrill in finding stuff anymore...because you know that the AH will already have it. And for a game predicated on random loot drops...this is a bad thing.
This is what I mean by influencing game design in a negative way...it's when the game is designed in order to maximize profit from RMT, instead of being designed to simply be an awesome game.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Green makes you horny
....
no thats m&m's sorry.
Yellow makes you run away like a coward?
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Don't see the problem on this one. This is a method used already in Eve which completely killed the gold farmers market in that game, added to the ability to like LOTRO in a sense, being about to buy things in game for the shop without having to pay real money is actually a bonus considering how yes there are some people who are stuck at home, unable to work, and have little or fixed incomes who would like to play as a pass time. This gives them a wider audience and gives them a method if stopping farming in it's tracks.
Yes it's gold farming hackers. It must be.
It couldn't be some dumbass responding to an e-mail they got, that told them to hand over their personal information for account verification purposes.
Did they ever get their $10 million dollars from that nice Nigerian who just wanted to share his wealth?
Replace the word "hacked" with "compromised" and I think you'll find you agree with me.
Phishing attempts are just one common way to gain access to accounts.
Oh, and also notice my use of the word "fewer" there. I didn't say hacking/compromising would stop, I said it would happen to fewer people. This is true if only by virtue of the fact that less people would be actively trying.
Anyone knows how many fully geared lv20s, a fully geared lv80 can take on in WvW?
Depends on player skill. A lvl20 can defeat a level 80 provided he is better at playing his prof.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Equally skilled, assuming both "know" their class. Another related question is: is there a generator where you can see the stats of a fully geared lv20 and fully geared lv80? Because if so, you can check how much % more damage the lv80 does compared to the lv20 against equal target and how much % less damage the lv80 takes compared to the lv20.
Here's my view on the issue step by step:
Pay ---> Recieve Gems ---> Trade for gold ---> Buy the best items ---> Buy WvWvW weapons ---> Win
Now by my math paying seems to have a direct correlation to winning. Doesn't matter which way you spin it in the end the more cash you spend the better off you are going to be. I don't necessarily hate the idea, as I have seen it done in much worse ways, I just don't like the whole concept even with the arguments about third parties doing it anyway.
Safehouse Gaming up and running at: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnKd0Hk85CQ_N04Ae7v5zZg