Right, I get that, but then you finish out your statement saying that you like the way quest hubs work more than what you are doing in GW2. Going by that line of reasoning it seems like you would either; think GW2 events function like quest hubs, and thus like the way they work. Or, think the GW2 events don't function like quest hubs, and thus don't like them.
It doesn't make much sense to say 'GW2 events feel like regular quest hubs, but I like how quest hubs work more'.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but that's what you're post seems to say.
Yeah I hit enter too fast on that reply, I meant to also point out I called DE's "mini quest hubs", which would differeniate them from what I called "true" quest hubs later. One keeps you in a zone/area longer, and slows down exploration a bit.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
2. No more "errand lists." What I mean by this is you don't have to go to a quest hub like a diligent husband, pick up a list of chores, go do them, and then return for your cookie. Instead, you just wander around as you please and get rewarded for completing objectives without ever having to go through that annoying "yes dear" phase. Some people may think this is minor, but I think it's a huge deal for a lot of people. Also add to this that in GW2 you will never encounter the annoying scenario where you complete a quests objective before receiving the quest, and then have to do it twice.
This is the part I didn't really feel was much different in GW2, and why I partially feel the DE's aren't all they were cracked up to be. Each one ends up feeling like a mini quest hub to me. Which is also what I expect from TESO when it hits with it's "exploration enhanced questing".
It wasn't only in DE's either I got that feeling, I also felt it during the personal story quests, and of course it was all too obvious in the hearts.
I must say I don't feel it's a bad thing, questing is questing it's the same in SP RPG's and I love those. The problem with MMO's and I felt it with GW2 is the disparity of quality in content. In an effort to offer quantity a lot of content just ends up feeling hollow. I have a feeling in GW2 that disparity will grow ten fold as I get higher in level and zones really open up. Just seems pretty much inevitable.
ON top of that I've always liked the way true quest hubs work for one reason, full on exploration takes time. You're not simply running to every corner you can on a whim at all times; this is what i was doing in GW2, while it was fun, and I saw a lot of uniqueness to things I'd find. I worry that since there's really nothing to hold you in place for a time (which in well done zones can really help to flesh them out, and entices full exploration) I'll see all there is to see a little too fast. The world is big, but it's not Vanguard or SWG big.
That's a little confusing, as you are basically criticising GW2 for being 'too much like a quest hub' and at the same time 'not like a quest hub'. I really don't see how they can be both to the same person.
Didn't criticize simply said it didn't feel much different than MMO questing to me, or having an objective list.
In response to your previous post Distopia...
I think whether you feel like the "errand list" feeling is gone in GW2 or not, really depends on what made you perceive that "errand list" feeling in the beginning. For me, being overly directed makes me feel like I'm running errands. So when I go to a quest hub and essentially receive a list of chores that says "do this, do this, do this, and then come back." I feel like I'm being overly directed.
But in GW2, you don't really have this. You just go wherever you want and do content. There is nothing really forcing you to do it in a specific order other than your level, and that's a pretty loose restriction given the downscaling. Even the quest objectives are more freeform than WoW. Instead of killing 10 boars, and collecting 5 relics; you just collect relics or kill boars or whatever until the bar fills up. Once again, less direction, not as linear, makes me not feel like I'm running errands.
That said, if you feel like your running an errand list just because of the types of objectivs that RPG quests always have (kill, collect, destroy, deliver, drop, etc.). Then I really don't think you're ever going to find a non errand-list experience for you. All quests will eventually boil down to these objectics...the only thing that can really be changed is how you approach them, and how well the quest "hides" them.
gw 2 will be sucess because it had prepurchase instead of preorder in most places, and because of huge hype,
and that sucess wont be because of it being good or bad game
personally gw2 is nice looking thing, thats rotten inside, when i play any normal mmorpg i dont mind repetition, but when gw2 trys to hide it so much yet having same repetition as korean grindfest mmorpgs. its just wrong in my eyes.. if you didnt find quest hugs repeat it self over and over, after you did 10, you could ignore reading even quest description, not to mention speaking with npc, go into area , kill mobs/interact with glowing stuff.. repeat, move on, repeat move on, oh event.. oh its one of 3-4 archetypes, np its kill for 20 time,
then there is combat, some classes have 1-2 skills they use , rest are for pvp/situational, so 90% time when lvling you spamm 1 spell. because first one is auto attack anyway
edit : yes gw2 feels complete and splendid all in one themepark.. but you guys make it sound like we still want those, like we need them? and like we enjoy them? we dont..and this themepark lacks one thing , competetive pve
gw2 is very casuall mmorpg, and if you had to compare gw2 to wow in dificulty , it would be 1 to 10.. gw2 is by far most casual game i ever saw ( not including actually casual browser games )
LOL this argument makes me laugh everytime I hear it. I played wow for 6 years starting day one of release in vanilla wow. The only thing seperating the "Top" raiding guilds with the casual guilds in WoW is the amount of time invested. It does not take skill to clear the content in Wow and alot of the "Top" class builds involved rotating 3 maybe 4 buttons. Yes I am sure some people think pushing 4 buttons in sequence rather than just 2 or 3 IS a HUGE increase in complexity and skill required but I am sure the majority of gamers will laugh along side me about the skill argument as it relates to WoW.
I would like to add a 4th complaint: "There is nothing new that GW2 brings to the genre." I don't agree with this statement though, but many people seem to bring this up.
Well this one I can see as a valid statement. What has GW2 really brought to the table that hasnt been seen in any other mmos in one form or another?
I mean they may have taken ideas an innovated upon them, fleshed them out more and actually made sure they at least worked before throwing them in.
As for knowing the game will be successful, it would be hard pressed to see this game not be successful. It has a decent price for a persistant multiplayer world, no sub fee so people won't have to mentally justify purchasing it over the long run and its fun. Even if you were to buy the game and only play it for a month its worth its retail price. And the bonus is down the road if you get an urge to play it again, just load it up - no having to resub.
Doing away with the Trinity, bringing the best PQ system to date, oh yeah and not just events - all quests are public. No more 'racing' to 'tag' a mob.
So many things GW2 has brought to the table, you're only missing them because you're not trying to look.
In reality anyone can rationalize away anything they choose to as being 'the same'. It doesn't mean that it isn't. You could literally look at any new inovantion and say 'ya, that's nothing that hasn't been done before'. However, if you start to use that same logic and apply it to other situations, you may start to see how ludicrous it really is.
For example, one could say that the Iphone wasn't an innovation, it just took existing technology and merged them together. However, nothing like it had existed in quite the same way before. Now they are everywhere. I also don't think that many would argue against the first 'smartphone' being an innovation.
Another example would be the progression systems now found in FPS games. People used to argue that they weren't anything new, because they had existed in other games. However, in the 1990s you really didn't see that in an FPS game. Now they are in almost all of them.
It all depends on how much you are trying to look at things under a microscope, and not at the overall picture.
I think whether you feel like the "errand list" feeling is gone in GW2 or not, really depends on what made you perceive that "errand list" feeling in the beginning. For me, being overly directed makes me feel like I'm running errands. So when I go to a quest hub and essentially receive a list of chores that says "do this, do this, do this, and then come back." I feel like I'm being overly directed.
But in GW2, you don't really have this. You just go wherever you want and do content. There is nothing really forcing you to do it in a specific order other than your level, and that's a pretty loose restriction given the downscaling. Even the quest objectives are more freeform than WoW. Instead of killing 10 boars, and collecting 5 relics; you just collect relics or kill boars or whatever until the bar fills up. Once again, less direction, not as linear, makes me not feel like I'm running errands.
That said, if you feel like your running an errand list just because of the types of objectivs that RPG quests always have (kill, collect, destroy, deliver, drop, etc.). Then I really don't think you're ever going to find a non errand-list experience for you. All quests will eventually boil down to these objectics...the only thing that can really be changed is how you approach them, and how well the quest "hides" them.
Agreed.
GW2 still has you kill, collect, destroy, deliver, drop, etc, etc, except that I believe they conceal the "grind" better than WOW does. You'll always have these mechanics in mmos, the key is to make the player not feel like they are doing the same thing time and time again (which in most games is the case and it is something which for the most part cannot be helped - nature of the beast).
What I did during the betas is do some pve with wvw mixed in there; wvw gave me a nice break from hearts and DE's. What ended up happing more often than not is that I enjoyed wvw so much that I ended up doing it almost exclusively haha.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
GW franchise was designed as an alternative RPG as almost all RPGS were difficult. From EQ to bauldurs gate. So GW came out with this Single player game with co op game play that meets in an MMO hub village. In featured more like an action instanced game.
Scoot ahead to GW2 and it is the SAME principle. Just open world. The people that fail at MMORPGS and RPGS finally have a place to call home. You can reach MAX level in GW2 without killing a single enemy. You are forced into areas or stuck without continuing. YOu have no need for role. Potion gobeling taking its roots to action GW1 = no need for class. Sure there is a touch of class but that takes ALLOT of fun out of the idea of RPG (role playing...playing our role).
I only agree with one thing. It is different. The market is saturated with so much role play people are numb now and want to skip and hop to the next thing. I notice 99% Of the community here are ADD game hoppers or ex wowers looking for that fix that promises a new game each content update (what wow didnt do, and when it did it was to late).
I am playing a great F2P title. I pay nothing, close to max level, and in my achievements log there is a marker for level 200. Right now cap is 80. If you measure the last update that increased the cap VS the upcoming updates to get us to 200, that is about 10 years down the road of content. I am content. My class rocks. I cant level easy, but its not difficult. No grind. EVENTS EVERY HOUR! Cash shop 100% cosmetic and interchangable and tradeable with in game awards and gold.
I Can go on and on. My wheels are not broken so I have no need to play a new game that failed at trying to reinvent it. And yes I played GW2 beta.
Right, I get that, but then you finish out your statement saying that you like the way quest hubs work more than what you are doing in GW2. Going by that line of reasoning it seems like you would either; think GW2 events function like quest hubs, and thus like the way they work. Or, think the GW2 events don't function like quest hubs, and thus don't like them.
It doesn't make much sense to say 'GW2 events feel like regular quest hubs, but I like how quest hubs work more'.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but that's what you're post seems to say.
Yeah I hit enter too fast on that reply, I meant to also point out I called DE's "mini quest hubs", which would differeniate them from what I called "true" quest hubs later. One keeps you in a zone/area longer, and slows down exploration a bit.
Ah... I see what you mean then.
Ya, I could understand that.
Really, the strength of the events system is that they chain off each other, overlap, and generally tend to string / weave together. If you only experience 1 part of the chain, in a bubble, then leave, then they don't generally last very long. They definitely don't force you to stick around, but they do give you a lot of incentives for it. Definitely a difference of personal preference, though.
GW franchise was designed as an alternative RPG as almost all RPGS were difficult. From EQ to bauldurs gate. So GW came out with this Single player game with co op game play that meets in an MMO hub village. In featured more like an action instanced game.
Scoot ahead to GW2 and it is the SAME principle. Just open world. The people that fail at MMORPGS and RPGS finally have a place to call home. You can reach MAX level in GW2 without killing a single enemy. You are forced into areas or stuck without continuing. YOu have no need for role. Potion gobeling taking its roots to action GW1 = no need for class. Sure there is a touch of class but that takes ALLOT of fun out of the idea of RPG (role playing...playing our role).
I only agree with one thing. It is different. The market is saturated with so much role play people are numb now and want to skip and hop to the next thing. I notice 99% Of the community here are ADD game hoppers or ex wowers looking for that fix that promises a new game each content update (what wow didnt do, and when it did it was to late).
I am playing a great F2P title. I pay nothing, close to max level, and in my achievements log there is a marker for level 200. Right now cap is 80. If you measure the last update that increased the cap VS the upcoming updates to get us to 200, that is about 10 years down the road of content. I am content. My class rocks. I cant level easy, but its not difficult. No grind. EVENTS EVERY HOUR! Cash shop 100% cosmetic and interchangable and tradeable with in game awards and gold.
I Can go on and on. My wheels are not broken so I have no need to play a new game that failed at trying to reinvent it. And yes I played GW2 beta.
LOL really? GW2 is the home for MMORPG failures?
I seriously have no clue what you're talking about. But I'm thinking that in the coming months, you will see the MMORPG "failures" outnumbering the MMORPG "successes" by a large margin.
I think whether you feel like the "errand list" feeling is gone in GW2 or not, really depends on what made you perceive that "errand list" feeling in the beginning. For me, being overly directed makes me feel like I'm running errands. So when I go to a quest hub and essentially receive a list of chores that says "do this, do this, do this, and then come back." I feel like I'm being overly directed.
But in GW2, you don't really have this. You just go wherever you want and do content. There is nothing really forcing you to do it in a specific order other than your level, and that's a pretty loose restriction given the downscaling. Even the quest objectives are more freeform than WoW. Instead of killing 10 boars, and collecting 5 relics; you just collect relics or kill boars or whatever until the bar fills up. Once again, less direction, not as linear, makes me not feel like I'm running errands.
That said, if you feel like your running an errand list just because of the types of objectivs that RPG quests always have (kill, collect, destroy, deliver, drop, etc.). Then I really don't think you're ever going to find a non errand-list experience for you. All quests will eventually boil down to these objectics...the only thing that can really be changed is how you approach them, and how well the quest "hides" them.
Yeah there's not really much else that can be done for questing (I think I've even seen a GW2 dev say close to the same), and I agree with the point you're making. Perception is key, for me I've really never got that feeling of being directed when I get a quest, I look at it as a task my character decided to take on (IE it's my choice to be doing this).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's easy to miss the next part of a DE chain - you have to be paying attention to what the NPC's do/say.
You have to watch them, listen to them, follow them, talk to them...
I think so many MMO gamers are just SO used to the "quest grind" if there isn't an indicator on their screen saying "OK NOW STAY HERE FOR 2 MINUTES FOR THE NEXT EVENT IN THE CHAIN" they wander off like little ADD bunnies looking for the next content to consume, rather than enjoying the experience of the content itself.
Reminds me of Crocodile Dundee when he turned on the TV in his hotel room, when the reporter pointed it out to him. He sees I Love Lucy and he makes a quip regarding that - yep - that's a TV and that's what he saw.
That is how I feel about DE's - saw them in Warhammer and then we saw Rifts in Rift and now we see DE's in GW2.
Reminds me of Crocodile Dundee when he turned on the TV in his hotel room, when the reporter pointed it out to him. He sees I Love Lucy and he makes a quip regarding that - yep - that's a TV and that's what he saw.
That is how I feel about DE's - saw them in Warhammer and then we saw Rifts in Rift and now we see DE's in GW2.
Public quests were a great concept in Warhammer and Rift, but they were never really implemented properly. There were just so many things that made them not work. Either you didn't have enough people, had too many people and it was too easy, high levels were hanging around to "help" lowbies with their PQs, they all felt the same (esp. Rift), etc. etc.
I feel like GW2 is the first game to implement the concept really well.
I really enjoy Rift and have since beta for the most part, but this game crushes it imo, on so many levels. Completely subjective, I know, but all I have to work with are my own feelings after playing both.
1) The individual, unique racial starting areas. Each one so much more detailed than either city in Rift.
2) The weather, right off the bat. I don't have to wait until level 20 to go to moonshade highlands to see rain! Or Iron Pine to see snow! I am a sucker for weather and ambiance, and this game is great with this stuff.
3) The races are so unique (compared to each other) here! From gigantic to tiny, far more variance than the size range between Bahmi and Dwarf. The individual race lore is so much deeper here. The running on all 4's for the Charr, etc...
4) I played quite a few characters to max in Rift and the dynamic events here are so much better done, better written, better executed, feel more dyamic and more involved, they have better emotional hooks, etc... the Heart quests are also decent and round things out very well here imo. The entire questing experience in GW2 is more involved and more ambient for me.
5) The art style is leaps and bounds better for me. Rift looks great to me, I love the graphics there on ultra, but GW2 to me has a very hand painted look to it. I was in awe a LOT while I played, it gave me a very VG type feel as far as the art goes. That old hand painted look... I'll take in any day over other options.
6) My favorite PvP experience in any mmorpg to date, by such a long shot, is DAoC. The siege weapons, the bashing on keep doors for 20+ minutes, the raoming PvE mobs in the frontiers, the taking and holding key structures, the 3 faction rvr, all of it. I never cared about the rank system or material rewards for doing it, I only even cared about the actual experience while doing it, and I did it for 4 straight years there. GW2 is the closest I've ever seen to matching that feeling for me with world vs world vs world. Aions end game pvp was a joke for me, Rifts 3 faction pvp system (the new Conquest) is better than what they had, but still a joke when compared to camelot. GW2 brought those old feelings back for me and I cant wait to jump back in there.
The list goes on and on... the size and the scope of this game verses Rift, combined with the little details and ambient touches, on top of the art style and emotional hooks and questing system and W-v-W pvp, just puts this game in a catergory that isnt even in the same ballpark as Rift, imo of course, and this is coming fropm someone who truly loves Rift and has a deep respect for Trion. It's not even close when comparing games at this point imo.
Edit * and I was completely sold on the fact, just 3 weeks ago (you can see in post history here), that I would never be buying or playing GW2 based on streams and videos that I saw of it. It wasn't until I got in here and experienced it first hand that I became a big fan of it. I'd highly recommend anyone who think s they dont like it based on streams or videos, to jump in if there's ever a free trial, and see for themselves. You might end up still hating it, but you might come away with a whole different experience like I did. It's worht keeping a slightly open mind imo, if the free chance ever arises.
Very nice post. I believe you and I share many of the same primary interests when it comes to MMOs
Your post really drives me to make 2 philosophical points.
First, I don't think everyone is as capable as you of changing your opinion, and especially publicly admitting you changed your opinion. Most people perceive this as admitting they were wrong, which comes as a blow to their ego. I fear many players who could potentially have a great time in GW2 are simply resigned to the role of eternal hater.
Second, is a counter rant on perceived GW2 fanboyism in reasonable posters. For rational, reasonable GW2 fans--who are generally easy to discern from the quality of their posts--the causality is such that we first critically analyzed the game, then, based on what we've seen, concluded that the game is pretty awesome. We thus become fans. The causality is NOT the other way around. We are not first fans of the game, and then therefore capable of only formulating positive opinions about every facet of the game. We remain perfectly capable of perceiving flaws or deficiencies in the game, which is also evidenced by the content of our various posts.
Certainly there are actual fanboys for every single game, whose already established positive opinion of the game influences their perception and essentially renders them incapable of criticism. But these people aren't reasonable. I would implore anyone who reads a post by a GW2 fan to determine whether or not that poster comes off as reasonable before writing him/her off as a jaded fanboy.
Similarly (and thankfully) there are reasonable critics, such as yourself, who are not eternally relegated to the critic role. Refreshing to see
Reminds me of Crocodile Dundee when he turned on the TV in his hotel room, when the reporter pointed it out to him. He sees I Love Lucy and he makes a quip regarding that - yep - that's a TV and that's what he saw.
That is how I feel about DE's - saw them in Warhammer and then we saw Rifts in Rift and now we see DE's in GW2.
DE's in GW2 are the evolution of Rifts in Rift which were the evolution of PQ's in WAR.
If you don't / can't see the differences, you aren't looking very hard.
You are seeing what you want to see.
Creslin said it best - it's all in the implementation and design, GW2's DEs are the first successful attempt at this kind of content that don't have any glaring flaws.
Really, the strength of the events system is that they chain off each other, overlap, and generally tend to string / weave together. If you only experience 1 part of the chain, in a bubble, then leave, then they don't generally last very long. They definitely don't force you to stick around, but they do give you a lot of incentives for it. Definitely a difference of personal preference, though.
Yeah I did a few chains and those were great. I did see quite a few things that really didn't interest me past the first phase as well though, that's the disparity I was pointing out.
Just for a point of discussion I could point out a way to handle DE's I think would have been a bit better. Cut down the number of actual DE's and make them all a bit more interesting/longer a bit more dynamic (Move around zones more), while filling in the smaller DE's with more actual questing similar to Personal Stories. That's just me though..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Reminds me of Crocodile Dundee when he turned on the TV in his hotel room, when the reporter pointed it out to him. He sees I Love Lucy and he makes a quip regarding that - yep - that's a TV and that's what he saw.
That is how I feel about DE's - saw them in Warhammer and then we saw Rifts in Rift and now we see DE's in GW2.
DE's in GW2 are the evolution of Rifts in Rift which were the evolution of PQ's in WAR.
If you don't / can't see the differences, you aren't looking very hard.
You are seeing what you want to see.
Tell me, how truly dynamic is the DE's? Are they randomly generated content where no two DE's ever are the same and will the DE's change locations?
Really, the strength of the events system is that they chain off each other, overlap, and generally tend to string / weave together. If you only experience 1 part of the chain, in a bubble, then leave, then they don't generally last very long. They definitely don't force you to stick around, but they do give you a lot of incentives for it. Definitely a difference of personal preference, though.
Yeah I did a few chains and those were great. I did see quite a few things that really didn't interest me past the first phase as well though, that's the disparity I was pointing out.
Just for a point of discussion I could point out a way to handle DE's I think would have been a bit better. Cut down the number of actual DE's and make them all a bit more interesting/longer a bit more dynamic (Move around zones more), while filling in the smaller DE's with more actual questing similar to Personal Stories. That's just me though..
Have you seen the layered events?
The reactor place in Asura lands was my first real exposure to a crazy area with multiple DE's running simultaneously on top of each other.
All indications point to that as you level up, there are more/better/layered/longer DE's and less Heart quests.
Especially the end-level progression part which i find rather harder to discuss as all BWE only allow us to go only around level zone 20ish .
He basically mentioned that once we reach 80 the idea of cosmetic items , well balanced items ...and 'fun' as incentive to continue playing is rather .. insufficient.
Define successful. We can't measure subs, so that metric is out.
I'm sure it will sell zillions and zillions of copies and be financially successful.
But what I wonder is if 1 year from launch, will it still have the same number of people playing on the servers, or perhaps more than there were at launch, (a la EVE or WOW) or will the number of active players fall off substantially making the servers ghost towns? (like most other games)
The latter is how I measure success, but I'm sure ANET prefers the former. (along with how well expansions/cash shop items sell)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Objectively GW2 will be successful because its a well above average quality game with a solid devoloper behind it that is also cheap to play.
Subjectively GW2 in my opinion is way more fun to play than WoW was in its beta, and i do wholeheartily believe that GW2 will have more players than WoW within a year. Reason for this being is the shear amount of preorders and hype behind the game. Millions will be playing at launch and wanting their RL friend to join them, thus more players, and the game keeps your attention long enough for those friends to get more people playing and so on. Of course this is all speculation but i havent felt this way about a MMO ever.
Really, the strength of the events system is that they chain off each other, overlap, and generally tend to string / weave together. If you only experience 1 part of the chain, in a bubble, then leave, then they don't generally last very long. They definitely don't force you to stick around, but they do give you a lot of incentives for it. Definitely a difference of personal preference, though.
Yeah I did a few chains and those were great. I did see quite a few things that really didn't interest me past the first phase as well though, that's the disparity I was pointing out.
Just for a point of discussion I could point out a way to handle DE's I think would have been a bit better. Cut down the number of actual DE's and make them all a bit more interesting/longer a bit more dynamic (Move around zones more), while filling in the smaller DE's with more actual questing similar to Personal Stories. That's just me though..
Ya, there is a lot of variety (for better & worse).
There are some really long chains, though. You just don't generally see them as much in the starter zones, because they have to be short and repeatable, otherwise new players burn through the content way too quickly. You also can't really have a lot of events that impact the world too much early on, because people are still learning how to play, and don't want to miss out on their first bit of content because they couldn't login in time =/.
But anyways, that's the tradeoff w/ DEs. You can't have content on demand with a system like this.
Objectively GW2 will be successful because its a well above average quality game with a solid devoloper behind it that is also cheap to play.
Subjectively GW2 in my opinion is way more fun to play than WoW was in its beta, and i do wholeheartily believe that GW2 will have more players than WoW within a year. Reason for this being is the shear amount of preorders and hype behind the game. Millions will be playing at launch and wanting their RL friend to join them, thus more players, and the game keeps your attention long enough for those friends to get more people playing and so on. Of course this is all speculation but i havent felt this way about a MMO ever.
Well that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that the game is "total free to play", once you have bought it.
Reminds me of Crocodile Dundee when he turned on the TV in his hotel room, when the reporter pointed it out to him. He sees I Love Lucy and he makes a quip regarding that - yep - that's a TV and that's what he saw.
That is how I feel about DE's - saw them in Warhammer and then we saw Rifts in Rift and now we see DE's in GW2.
DE's in GW2 are the evolution of Rifts in Rift which were the evolution of PQ's in WAR.
If you don't / can't see the differences, you aren't looking very hard.
You are seeing what you want to see.
Tell me, how truly dynamic is the DE's? Are they randomly generated content where no two DE's ever are the same and will the DE's change locations?
DE's have multiple outcomes depending on if they fail or not and at which step in the event either happens. Later zones they get much more invovled and the persistent effects are much more pronounced but you can see persistant effects all the way back to the starter areas just not as noticable.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
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Yeah I hit enter too fast on that reply, I meant to also point out I called DE's "mini quest hubs", which would differeniate them from what I called "true" quest hubs later. One keeps you in a zone/area longer, and slows down exploration a bit.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In response to your previous post Distopia...
I think whether you feel like the "errand list" feeling is gone in GW2 or not, really depends on what made you perceive that "errand list" feeling in the beginning. For me, being overly directed makes me feel like I'm running errands. So when I go to a quest hub and essentially receive a list of chores that says "do this, do this, do this, and then come back." I feel like I'm being overly directed.
But in GW2, you don't really have this. You just go wherever you want and do content. There is nothing really forcing you to do it in a specific order other than your level, and that's a pretty loose restriction given the downscaling. Even the quest objectives are more freeform than WoW. Instead of killing 10 boars, and collecting 5 relics; you just collect relics or kill boars or whatever until the bar fills up. Once again, less direction, not as linear, makes me not feel like I'm running errands.
That said, if you feel like your running an errand list just because of the types of objectivs that RPG quests always have (kill, collect, destroy, deliver, drop, etc.). Then I really don't think you're ever going to find a non errand-list experience for you. All quests will eventually boil down to these objectics...the only thing that can really be changed is how you approach them, and how well the quest "hides" them.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
The difference between Heart Event hubs and Dynamic Events in GW2
http://youtu.be/_3gp8SmzYYs
edit to make it clicky
LOL this argument makes me laugh everytime I hear it. I played wow for 6 years starting day one of release in vanilla wow. The only thing seperating the "Top" raiding guilds with the casual guilds in WoW is the amount of time invested. It does not take skill to clear the content in Wow and alot of the "Top" class builds involved rotating 3 maybe 4 buttons. Yes I am sure some people think pushing 4 buttons in sequence rather than just 2 or 3 IS a HUGE increase in complexity and skill required but I am sure the majority of gamers will laugh along side me about the skill argument as it relates to WoW.
In reality anyone can rationalize away anything they choose to as being 'the same'. It doesn't mean that it isn't. You could literally look at any new inovantion and say 'ya, that's nothing that hasn't been done before'. However, if you start to use that same logic and apply it to other situations, you may start to see how ludicrous it really is.
For example, one could say that the Iphone wasn't an innovation, it just took existing technology and merged them together. However, nothing like it had existed in quite the same way before. Now they are everywhere. I also don't think that many would argue against the first 'smartphone' being an innovation.
Another example would be the progression systems now found in FPS games. People used to argue that they weren't anything new, because they had existed in other games. However, in the 1990s you really didn't see that in an FPS game. Now they are in almost all of them.
It all depends on how much you are trying to look at things under a microscope, and not at the overall picture.
Agreed.
GW2 still has you kill, collect, destroy, deliver, drop, etc, etc, except that I believe they conceal the "grind" better than WOW does. You'll always have these mechanics in mmos, the key is to make the player not feel like they are doing the same thing time and time again (which in most games is the case and it is something which for the most part cannot be helped - nature of the beast).
What I did during the betas is do some pve with wvw mixed in there; wvw gave me a nice break from hearts and DE's. What ended up happing more often than not is that I enjoyed wvw so much that I ended up doing it almost exclusively haha.
nice one hadn't see that guys video before
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The problem with your brain and all GW fans/
GW franchise was designed as an alternative RPG as almost all RPGS were difficult. From EQ to bauldurs gate. So GW came out with this Single player game with co op game play that meets in an MMO hub village. In featured more like an action instanced game.
Scoot ahead to GW2 and it is the SAME principle. Just open world. The people that fail at MMORPGS and RPGS finally have a place to call home. You can reach MAX level in GW2 without killing a single enemy. You are forced into areas or stuck without continuing. YOu have no need for role. Potion gobeling taking its roots to action GW1 = no need for class. Sure there is a touch of class but that takes ALLOT of fun out of the idea of RPG (role playing...playing our role).
I only agree with one thing. It is different. The market is saturated with so much role play people are numb now and want to skip and hop to the next thing. I notice 99% Of the community here are ADD game hoppers or ex wowers looking for that fix that promises a new game each content update (what wow didnt do, and when it did it was to late).
I am playing a great F2P title. I pay nothing, close to max level, and in my achievements log there is a marker for level 200. Right now cap is 80. If you measure the last update that increased the cap VS the upcoming updates to get us to 200, that is about 10 years down the road of content. I am content. My class rocks. I cant level easy, but its not difficult. No grind. EVENTS EVERY HOUR! Cash shop 100% cosmetic and interchangable and tradeable with in game awards and gold.
I Can go on and on. My wheels are not broken so I have no need to play a new game that failed at trying to reinvent it. And yes I played GW2 beta.
Ah... I see what you mean then.
Ya, I could understand that.
Really, the strength of the events system is that they chain off each other, overlap, and generally tend to string / weave together. If you only experience 1 part of the chain, in a bubble, then leave, then they don't generally last very long. They definitely don't force you to stick around, but they do give you a lot of incentives for it. Definitely a difference of personal preference, though.
LOL really? GW2 is the home for MMORPG failures?
I seriously have no clue what you're talking about. But I'm thinking that in the coming months, you will see the MMORPG "failures" outnumbering the MMORPG "successes" by a large margin.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yeah there's not really much else that can be done for questing (I think I've even seen a GW2 dev say close to the same), and I agree with the point you're making. Perception is key, for me I've really never got that feeling of being directed when I get a quest, I look at it as a task my character decided to take on (IE it's my choice to be doing this).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's easy to miss the next part of a DE chain - you have to be paying attention to what the NPC's do/say.
You have to watch them, listen to them, follow them, talk to them...
I think so many MMO gamers are just SO used to the "quest grind" if there isn't an indicator on their screen saying "OK NOW STAY HERE FOR 2 MINUTES FOR THE NEXT EVENT IN THE CHAIN" they wander off like little ADD bunnies looking for the next content to consume, rather than enjoying the experience of the content itself.
Reminds me of Crocodile Dundee when he turned on the TV in his hotel room, when the reporter pointed it out to him. He sees I Love Lucy and he makes a quip regarding that - yep - that's a TV and that's what he saw.
That is how I feel about DE's - saw them in Warhammer and then we saw Rifts in Rift and now we see DE's in GW2.
Public quests were a great concept in Warhammer and Rift, but they were never really implemented properly. There were just so many things that made them not work. Either you didn't have enough people, had too many people and it was too easy, high levels were hanging around to "help" lowbies with their PQs, they all felt the same (esp. Rift), etc. etc.
I feel like GW2 is the first game to implement the concept really well.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Very nice post. I believe you and I share many of the same primary interests when it comes to MMOs
Your post really drives me to make 2 philosophical points.
First, I don't think everyone is as capable as you of changing your opinion, and especially publicly admitting you changed your opinion. Most people perceive this as admitting they were wrong, which comes as a blow to their ego. I fear many players who could potentially have a great time in GW2 are simply resigned to the role of eternal hater.
Second, is a counter rant on perceived GW2 fanboyism in reasonable posters. For rational, reasonable GW2 fans--who are generally easy to discern from the quality of their posts--the causality is such that we first critically analyzed the game, then, based on what we've seen, concluded that the game is pretty awesome. We thus become fans. The causality is NOT the other way around. We are not first fans of the game, and then therefore capable of only formulating positive opinions about every facet of the game. We remain perfectly capable of perceiving flaws or deficiencies in the game, which is also evidenced by the content of our various posts.
Certainly there are actual fanboys for every single game, whose already established positive opinion of the game influences their perception and essentially renders them incapable of criticism. But these people aren't reasonable. I would implore anyone who reads a post by a GW2 fan to determine whether or not that poster comes off as reasonable before writing him/her off as a jaded fanboy.
Similarly (and thankfully) there are reasonable critics, such as yourself, who are not eternally relegated to the critic role. Refreshing to see
DE's in GW2 are the evolution of Rifts in Rift which were the evolution of PQ's in WAR.
If you don't / can't see the differences, you aren't looking very hard.
You are seeing what you want to see.
Creslin said it best - it's all in the implementation and design, GW2's DEs are the first successful attempt at this kind of content that don't have any glaring flaws.
Yeah I did a few chains and those were great. I did see quite a few things that really didn't interest me past the first phase as well though, that's the disparity I was pointing out.
Just for a point of discussion I could point out a way to handle DE's I think would have been a bit better. Cut down the number of actual DE's and make them all a bit more interesting/longer a bit more dynamic (Move around zones more), while filling in the smaller DE's with more actual questing similar to Personal Stories. That's just me though..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Tell me, how truly dynamic is the DE's? Are they randomly generated content where no two DE's ever are the same and will the DE's change locations?
Have you seen the layered events?
The reactor place in Asura lands was my first real exposure to a crazy area with multiple DE's running simultaneously on top of each other.
All indications point to that as you level up, there are more/better/layered/longer DE's and less Heart quests.
In my limited experience, this is true.
The best critic that i've heard from gw2 comes from this youtube-blogger total halibut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtG0kkDviTU&feature=g-user-u
Especially the end-level progression part which i find rather harder to discuss as all BWE only allow us to go only around level zone 20ish .
He basically mentioned that once we reach 80 the idea of cosmetic items , well balanced items ...and 'fun' as incentive to continue playing is rather .. insufficient.
Define successful. We can't measure subs, so that metric is out.
I'm sure it will sell zillions and zillions of copies and be financially successful.
But what I wonder is if 1 year from launch, will it still have the same number of people playing on the servers, or perhaps more than there were at launch, (a la EVE or WOW) or will the number of active players fall off substantially making the servers ghost towns? (like most other games)
The latter is how I measure success, but I'm sure ANET prefers the former. (along with how well expansions/cash shop items sell)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
God damn trolls on these forums is ridiculous.
Objectively GW2 will be successful because its a well above average quality game with a solid devoloper behind it that is also cheap to play.
Subjectively GW2 in my opinion is way more fun to play than WoW was in its beta, and i do wholeheartily believe that GW2 will have more players than WoW within a year. Reason for this being is the shear amount of preorders and hype behind the game. Millions will be playing at launch and wanting their RL friend to join them, thus more players, and the game keeps your attention long enough for those friends to get more people playing and so on. Of course this is all speculation but i havent felt this way about a MMO ever.
Ya, there is a lot of variety (for better & worse).
There are some really long chains, though. You just don't generally see them as much in the starter zones, because they have to be short and repeatable, otherwise new players burn through the content way too quickly. You also can't really have a lot of events that impact the world too much early on, because people are still learning how to play, and don't want to miss out on their first bit of content because they couldn't login in time =/.
But anyways, that's the tradeoff w/ DEs. You can't have content on demand with a system like this.
Well that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that the game is "total free to play", once you have bought it.
DE's have multiple outcomes depending on if they fail or not and at which step in the event either happens. Later zones they get much more invovled and the persistent effects are much more pronounced but you can see persistant effects all the way back to the starter areas just not as noticable.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg