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Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?
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Most people who use the word wrongly know very well what they are doing and what the word actually means. I realize that a lot of people just do it automatically but please don't tell me that people don't know what they are saying. Most know fully.
Smile
1-To the first sentence, whoever made the guild, can do whatever they choose.
"Dictating how a business is run"....really?
If I buy a basketball from Spalding, I can play basketball with whomever I choose. If I choose to call 9 of my friends who are of similar beliefs, that is my business.
And it's exactly the same in an mmo. If I decide I want a guild made up of my peers, then that's my right. I consider that a first amendment right.
2 I dont know why you even mention this as it is not what the thread is about. Sure it's a game and if it's my guild, I can do what I want.
3 exactly.
No kidding Razeekster should look up the definition of "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects. Pot meet Kettle
Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.
This is kind of like the discussions on what the term "MMO" means. It didn't used to have a recognized meaning, now it does. It has a definition and everything. Words change meaning depending on how people use them. That's how it happens, people start using words in a different way, or start using new words, and other people pick them up and then that's what the words mean. There's a whole science devoted to how this happens in language and how long it takes for it to happen with specific words. "Gay" happens to be a word that the younger among us have decided means, "lame" or "dumb". It's a general purpose term. Yes, it's dumb. No, it's not allowed in my house and I'm relieved that all our children have grown out of it, but that doesn't change the fact that in ten years it may be a common term meaning "lame" or "dumb". I'm not sure what my point is here, other than words just change. Getting angry about it, even when the words are offensive, deliberately or not isn't really going to stop this from happening. Especially when the people changing the language have no idea what kind of history the words they use have.
Most people who use the word wrongly know very well what they are doing and what the word actually means. I realize that a lot of people just do it automatically but please don't tell me that people don't know what they are saying. Most know fully.
I didn't say they were ignorant. They are fully conversant with all the different meanings of the word, "gay". It's difficult to give them a logical train of reasoning as to why they shouldn't use the word "gay" as an insult when their gay friends call their principal "gay", as in lame. The only card I really had left was that they were going to do what I said because it's my house and I said so. I can't do this with the internet though. I can't even do this with my kid's friends. I have to pick my battles.
So, what's my point here, and what does this have to do with themed guilds? I do not know. We've gone off track and it's late. Don't let things like this wind you up. It just gives people an easy target at which to aim. Join a LBGT guild and actually enjoy the games you play instead of getting wound up about things that can't be fixed. Pick your battles, but in the mean time, enjoy the things that can be enjoyed and don't let the d!ckholes of the internet ruin it for you.
I guess. Also, I'm not entirely sure what Loktofelt was getting at earlier, but experience has shown me that they were actually getting at something, and it was probably pretty clever, and I just missed it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Jake: "I hate Illinois Nazis." (engine revs)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Are you joking? I hear more locker room talk in MMOs than I do in an actual locker room.
Your /thread comment that you so conveniently removed from my quote would say otherwise. That being your response to yet another poster who thinks people shouldn't chat about real life topics and both of you saying it shouldn't be done in a game, which is quite funny, since it's relegated for the most part to the gay guild and not your average world chat, so I fail to see why it would ever be an issue for you or him.
It's the same because dumb origionally meant people either suffering from mental retardation, or as you noted, people who are unable to speak. Using dumb for anything else is adding a negative stigma to something that is a serious issue that cannot be helped by an individual.
Likewise, other words that are morphed are: retarded, bitch, the n word, and so on. To have a problem with the use of gay or faggot is justifiable, but you can't JUST have a problem with gay and faggot when you are using 'dumb', 'retarded', 'bitch', the n word and so on. Likewise, to only have a problem with gay and faggot and not the other words mentioned makes you more or less a hypocrite, because it's only bad when a word is used negatively when it affects you
edit: additional words that are used negatively and not as their intended meaning. Lame, stupid, idiot, little-girl
You know you're not the majority in America any more, right?
It'll take a while, but we'll see "preserve caucasian culture" movements before the end of this century. You're being outbred into obsolescence.
>>You know you're not the majority in America any more, right?<<
*rolls eyes* First, I'm not an American, thank gods.
Second, whites in America are pretty much still the largest group; it's all other combined which are somewhat in the same ballpark, but no single group may in any way rival whites.
Third, same proclamations were issued before: Irish and Italians are going to overbreed whites... Well, look what happened. Hello, senior O'Reily, whitest of the white! Whites just assimilate some other group, so that it'll become "honorary whites", with "separate cultural identity" like Irish or Scottish or whatever, but still fully white; and voila, miraculously, whites are the majority again. A little bit less exclusive (after all, it's hard to argue that Irish are truly white people, that Irish children can have same academical success as whites, that Irish adults have same work ethics as proper whites, or don't have inherent drinking/violence problem, the beasts that they are), but nevertheless, white.
Say, let's take an average Latino. Who are latinos? Basicly spaniards. Who are spaniards? Why, they are whites. If Italian can be white, so can a Spaniard, too! Just adjust a bit Republican talking points, you know, the outreach thingie, and voila, you are a great majority again, and all non-whites are farked again!
>>we'll see "preserve caucasian culture" movements before the end of this century<<
We are seeing them now. As we've saw it 20 years ago. As we've saw it when Italians and Irish were the boogieman... The problem (the talent?) with whites is that they'll (we) always find ways to fark everyone else and yet to look like we are the victim here and just trying to do it all for you own good. The white man's burden, dontchaknow.
I'd say i don't care, but it honestly bothers me.
It's time for people to just mingle and accept each others beliefs and preferences...
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It depends on what the guilds do, if they call themselves the 'Join Jesus or Go to Hell' guild and go around telling everyone how wonderful being Christian is all the time, they should be banned. Same goes for anything gay etc, MMO's were not made to advertise your personnel life in game.
If they keep to themselves I see no issues, nothing wrong with the odd religious or gay comment either, but then I would query someone chatting too long in general chat about sports. A MMO is not Facepalm or Twitless, if you feel a burning desire to tell everyone about your life, head there.
Just saying...
Depends on whether or not you kept those beliefs to yourself in game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If you kept your belief to yourself, sure, why not?
If you wanted to talk to people who weren't going to mock you though, I'd suggest starting a "Flat Earth" guild.
Also, FYI, active since 2004:
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
Where you could possibly find members.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
First of all I want to give everyone in this thread a ribbon.
Seriously, we get threads shut down in minutes debating trivial things like the pay structure of a game. Yet, here we are on, what page 35, of a thread concerning a "touchy" topic, with a warning on page 2 going strong.
Again bravo to everyone for being civil.
To recap I think the consensus is this: (incase you don't want to read 30+pages) "As long as these guilds don't take to open channels and disrupt others gameplay, and you are just looking for "like minds" to spend their time with, we seem to be OK with them."
This makes me VERY proud. Seem we are generally a bunch of Libertarians.
Liberty > ALL
There is a difference between being angry at the misuse of words, especially as insults, and being angry at the misuse of words that are a direct insult to you. There's also a difference between being born into a system where the words have already changed meaning, and being present while the meaning is being changed, especially when it denigrates something in your own life.
It's not feasible for people to fight every change in word usage. It takes an intensity that doesn't exist in most people. A personal stake is needed. So people who have family members or friends who are mentally challenged fight against "retarded". LBGT take up the fight against "gay". People who don't like the definition of "MMO" that the industry supports take up the fight against that. Doing it any other way doesn't make sense.
**
The other side of this is that a lot of words get added, removed and changed in the common vernacular and nobody cares. If people constantly fought against every word change, we'd still be speaking whatever language we spoke when we left Africa, and we'd have no idea what to call these things we're typing into all the time.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's pretty sad that a non-white person has to tell you that there needs to be white study. Not all white people are the same. Irish people have a different history than German people have a different history than Polish people etc. To say all history is white history is ignorant at best and completely ignores the multiple European cultures that have come to this country. Just because you are white doesn't make you equal, Europe has proven that for many hundreds of years.
You clearly aren't understanding what equality means. Do you know why the Black Panthers are allowed to exist? Because the KKK is allowed to exist. Equality means that if I can make an LGBT guild or a Black guild, then YOU can make a heterosexual guild or a White guild. If you can't make an exclusive guild, then I can't make an exclusive guild. No exceptions.
The only real difference is the typical level of reaction. If it's a word that involves a group you belong in, it's only natural for you to be upset, but if its a word that involves a group that you DON'T belong in, it's only natural for you to not care. I can't get mad at someone for throwing around the word faggot or gay because I throw retarded and bitch around equally. If I expect someone to apologize to me for using those words, then I should apologize to each and every one of my female friends and my mentally disabled aunt. Gay has already morphed its meaning from being happy to being a homosexual, to being a homosexual man, and is now on the verge to morphing into being stupid. The other words I have listed have morphed at least once in the last 30 years, some in the last 15.
It's not feasible to fight every word because we are all incredibly inconsistent about it. When LGBT fight against the word gay, they are still misusing retard. When family/friends of mentally disabled fight against retarded, they misuse gay. When women fight against the use of bitch, most of them are misusing retard and faggot. No group can win because no group can concede to being fair to other groups and their plights.
BTW, Take notice how when I mention someone who is mentally disabled, I don't call them retarded despite the fact that per definition they are. Thats just the exact negative stigma that the use of the word retarded has gained.
Who brought up the word "Equality"? I didn't. I'm not sure who did. But it's not about equality, it's about being around people who share similarities, and at the same time, not excluding people for being different. I'm speaking from personal experience here, but I think it's pretty accurate to say that a KKK guild would not allow any African American or Chinese members. They would exclude members based on race. So no, a KKK guild does not need to be allowed. I'm honestly not sure about a Black Panther guild, but I suspect they wouldn't allow some members based on race. Do the Black Panthers even still exist? Are they at all related to the Black Panthers that started in the 60s?
But really, if you truly think a KKK guild would be fine, then you probably don't understand why people might feel that they need a LBGT or Religiously themed guild.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
They don't annoy me. Why would they? How are they any different than all the loud and redundant guild and character names, e.g., Gankenstein, SkillCosby, Lolegolass, Yoduh, etc.
I don't KNOW how those guilds operate, I can't say if they are the 'this is a safe place for a group' or if its the 'this place is ONLY for this group' type of deal, so I wont talk about them specifically.
The issue of equality arose when people brought up the concept of making a guild SPECIFICALLY to address heterosexuals or white people. Most people found that to be either redundant or ridiculous and some went so far as to say that shouldn't be allowed. Thats when you start encroaching on equality, because now we are saying that one group has more rights than another group. Sound familiar?
Again, if we allow an LGBT based guild or a Christian based guild, and if we want to be fair, then there's really not much of a reason to deny someone who wants to make a white supremecist guild or a mens only guild. It's a question of whether you want to be fair or not.
Uh, no. Allowiing a LBGT guild addresses an inequality that is built into population demographics. So does allowing a Religious guild, especially in gamer populations. Furthermore, at least in the case of Blizzard, the customers wanted it.
Allowing a White Supremacist guild doesn't address an inequality that is built into population demographics. A White Supremacist guild would also deny membership based on the race of the player. I'm not gay, but I could join a LBGT guild. I'm not religious but I could join a Religious guild. If I were not white, I could not join a White Supremacist guild. So no, a White Supremacist guild is not necessary to be "fair". I'm reasonably sure that the customers would not want it either. Since MMORPGs are private clubs and not public venues, then this is perfectly "fair".
**
Also, stop pretending to be ignorant of how a White Supremacist group would operate. They would deny members based on race because that's the whole purpose of their group.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.