Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?

KBishop

Originally posted by lizardbones

Uh, no. Allowiing a LBGT guild addresses an inequality that is built into population demographics. So does allowing a Religious guild, especially in gamer populations. Furthermore, at least in the case of Blizzard, the customers wanted it.

Allowing a White Supremacist guild doesn't address an inequality that is built into population demographics. A White Supremacist guild would also deny membership based on the race of the player. I'm not gay, but I could join a LBGT guild. I'm not religious but I could join a Religious guild. If I were not white, I could not join a White Supremacist guild. So no, a White Supremacist guild is not necessary to be "fair". I'm reasonably sure that the customers would not want it either. Since MMORPGs are private clubs and not public venues, then this is perfectly "fair".

 

Firstly in regards to religion, it totally depends on the religion. Christianity by and large is the dominate religion in America, and last I checked like 70%~ people at least identified with Christianity. So by your entire summation, we should be allowed to make an Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu group, but a Christianity group is out of the question because they are already the majority.

There is inequality built across all groups including the majority. Thinking otherwise is clearly not thinking at all. Furthermore, just because the people in power happen to be white heterosexual males does NOT mean that all white heterosexual males have power. Thats a faulty assumption. So to allow LGBT and Non-Christian Religious and Blacks/Hispanic etc to make a guild and to NOT allow heterosexuals, Christians, or Whites to make a guild specifically for themselves IS the example of inequality. Because you are now saying that someone has less rights in this venue because of something they can't help.

Again, I don't know how the LGBT guilds work, but I've seen enough LGBT groups that a strictly 'heterosexuals get the fuck out' that I certain a few might exist. That's exclusion. Furthermore, as much as many wish to not admit, when a group focuses on the plights on one group, that is also exclusion. When a group goes into the ghetto and focuses on the problem of black teens, they are exclusively forgetting the problems of the white, hispanic, and asian teens. While it's not outright saying "if you're not black, get the fuck out", it's subtly saying "If you're not black, we're not going to go out of our way to help you"

If you want things to be fair, then you have to allow all groups that aren't doing things illegal. Just because you don't like what they are doing doesn't mean anything, because a lot of people probably don't like what you are doing. Should your rights be revoked? Of course not.. because their your rights..

 

edit: btw dude, I'm black. I'm familiar with how the white supremecist work. I'm not about to say they can't exist because I have personal feelings about them, because then that eliminates the freedom to make a safe group for people to be in. Thats tough shit to me, but then I can enjoy the rights of having a black only, male only, or LGBT only group because of it.

WalterWhite

I wouldn't join one as that is not my thing but it will be good for those people as they can all be in a guild with others that have the same views or lifestyles.

Four0Six

Originally posted by KBishop

Originally posted by lizardbones

Uh, no. Allowiing a LBGT guild addresses an inequality that is built into population demographics. So does allowing a Religious guild, especially in gamer populations. Furthermore, at least in the case of Blizzard, the customers wanted it.

Allowing a White Supremacist guild doesn't address an inequality that is built into population demographics. A White Supremacist guild would also deny membership based on the race of the player. I'm not gay, but I could join a LBGT guild. I'm not religious but I could join a Religious guild. If I were not white, I could not join a White Supremacist guild. So no, a White Supremacist guild is not necessary to be "fair". I'm reasonably sure that the customers would not want it either. Since MMORPGs are private clubs and not public venues, then this is perfectly "fair".

 

Firstly in regards to religion, it totally depends on the religion. Christianity by and large is the dominate religion in America, and last I checked like 70%~ people at least identified with Christianity. So by your entire summation, we should be allowed to make an Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu group, but a Christianity group is out of the question because they are already the majority.

There is inequality built across all groups including the majority. Thinking otherwise is clearly not thinking at all. Furthermore, just because the people in power happen to be white heterosexual males does NOT mean that all white heterosexual males have power. Thats a faulty assumption. So to allow LGBT and Non-Christian Religious and Blacks/Hispanic etc to make a guild and to NOT allow heterosexuals, Christians, or Whites to make a guild specifically for themselves IS the example of inequality. Because you are now saying that someone has less rights in this venue because of something they can't help.

Again, I don't know how the LGBT guilds work, but I've seen enough LGBT groups that a strictly 'heterosexuals get the fuck out' that I certain a few might exist. That's exclusion. Furthermore, as much as many wish to not admit, when a group focuses on the plights on one group, that is also exclusion. When a group goes into the ghetto and focuses on the problem of black teens, they are exclusively forgetting the problems of the white, hispanic, and asian teens. While it's not outright saying "if you're not black, get the fuck out", it's subtly saying "If you're not black, we're not going to go out of our way to help you"

If you want things to be fair, then you have to allow all groups that aren't doing things illegal. Just because you don't like what they are doing doesn't mean anything, because a lot of people probably don't like what you are doing. Should your rights be revoked? Of course not.. because their your rights..

 

edit: btw dude, I'm black. I'm familiar with how the white supremecist work. I'm not about to say they can't exist because I have personal feelings about them, because then that eliminates the freedom to make a safe group for people to be in. Thats tough shit to me, but then I can enjoy the rights of having a black only, male only, or LGBT only group because of it.

I am slightly familiar with 1 LGBT guild in RIFT. I was told, by members, that it was about having a "safe" environment. I take them at their word. They advertised with the label, so players knew. Not to antagonize or troll. They didn't require LGBT, but that you were friendly to such. Now when you get into "Supremacy" guilds, you can run into discrimination. But if you want to get into semantics, I see discrimination when I hear a guild require 18+, Vent, 3 day a week raiding, you know the common ones. Truth is "IN" guild discrimination is allowed. Same as "IN" any club or group. Most often this is done sub-consciously, by grouping with people with similar likes. Problems arise when any group attempts to force it's "discrimination" on the greater populace.

 

I think we have again beat the dead horse of "Let them group, just don't grief, or be a dick face", but I do find it stimulating, and without debate there is no growth.

Hatefull

There are heavy RP guilds, military focused guilds, laid back guilds.  IMO, theme or don't theme your guild however you want.  My only reservation to that would be;  Much like in real life, do not come to me, uninvited, and start trying to convince me I need to be like you.  I do not push my lifestyle on others and I expect the same courtesy in return.

Bottom line: to each their own.

Four0Six

Originally posted by Hatefull

There are heavy RP guilds, military focused guilds, laid back guilds.  IMO, theme or don't theme your guild however you want.  My only reservation to that would be;  Much like in real life, do not come to me, uninvited, and start trying to convince me I need to be like you.  I do not push my lifestyle on others and I expect the same courtesy in return.

Bottom line: to each their own.

Libertarianism FTW +1

Terranah

If people are looking to make a connection and feel a sense of community within a game, I think that's great. 

 

I tend to connect more based on a commonality of goals within the game.  For example, does the guild focus more on pve vs pvp or crafting?  Is there a role playing element and if so how light or intense is the rp aspect.  Do they group very much, are they talkative in chat, are people willing to help and answer questions?  These are some of the things I look for in choosing a guild.

Novusod

Originally posted by lizardbones

This article on Massively: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07/18/ask-massively-taboo-topics/

talks about the subject of "themed" guilds, in particular, guilds with a religious focus or a LGBT focus. Really, the guild is focused on gaming, but you know what I mean.
 

Do religious guilds ruin your immersion in a game? What about LBGT guilds? Are there even that many guilds that advertise themselves based on a given religion or orientation?
 

From an immersion point of view real life themed armies certainly existed in historical context. Example being the Knights Templar or other Crusader groups who were fighting holy war. Members had to take oaths and they definitely didn't let atheists or non-committals join.

There are even historical accounts of LGBT focused armies though they didn't call themselves LGBT. The Greek commander Phaedrus believed the power of male sexual relationships improved bravery in the military. Plato even wrote about it as well: "he would prefer to die many deaths: while as for leaving the one he loves in a lurch, or not succoring him in peril, no man is such a craven that the influence of Love cannot inspire him with a courage that makes him equal to the bravest born."

It is widely believed the Spartan 300 were all gay men. The Greek City of Thebes was so inspired by the Spartan 300 that they created their own elite army called the Sacred Band of Thebes. (Imagine that for a guild name implying that members be both religious and gay) The force consisted of 150 pairs of male lovers and they were the front line shock troops of the ancient Greek army.

 

So what is the deal with people complaining about immersion? Basically what those immersion complainers are saying is "I am ignorant and want to live in an over simplified word where nothing can offend me."

Epicent

Eh, I'd   be happy  with an all  atheist guild but  you dont really see  those.

Eunuchmaker

Originally posted by DamonVile
I think those guilds are a good idea. It keeps all the people who can't leave that stuff at the door away from everyone that can.

 

Win.

Hannamerika

I am an older player and consequently among a group of people that some would prefer not to play with.   Some think I will be too slow or they simply don't want to deal with me at all.  They came to the game to escape their mothers, not play with her.  The thing is, I can be in game, and I can play, and you don't have to deal with me if you don't want to.

By the same token, if I don't want to be propositioned by a straight or a gay and if I don't want to have to listen to all the vulgar and foul language so often seen in these games, then I can join a religious guild and have people to interact who are not going to insult me with those things.  I also have a safe haven to bring my grandchildren to where I don't need to worry about them being exposed to the things we work so hard to protect them from in real life.

I can also socialize...meaning chat...with people who share many of my same interests.  Our guild for example, talks about everything from cooking to books to education and yes, religious topics, one of which is learning Greek.  For me, this enhances the game experience 10 fold.  And I bet there are activities some of the rest of you engage in that are not strictly game related that make the games relevant in your life.

We ALL segregate ourselves to some extent in real life, whether we want to admit it or not.  That doesn't have to mean we have it out for a certain group, or hate a certain group, it just means that particular thing is not our thing and that is OK.  There are a lot of things going on in this world I don't like, and that I would like to change if I could, but I can't.  All I can do is live my life the way I believe I should live it and hope that my life may be of some help to someone else.

Now, if you WANT to discuss religion, or even debate that or any other issue, I am game, and I love it, but I REFUSE to argue.  I do love a good debate, an honest exchange of thoughts and ideas.  I have even been persuaded in a different direction on occasion.  Let me see, the last time was ah..............ah.................hmmmm, I can't remember:)  JUST KIDDING:)

Epicent

Originally posted by Hannamerika

I am an older player and consequently among a group of people that some would prefer not to play with.   Some think I will be too slow or they simply don't want to deal with me at all.  They came to the game to escape their mothers, not play with her.  The thing is, I can be in game, and I can play, and you don't have to deal with me if you don't want to.

By the same token, if I don't want to be propositioned by a straight or a gay and if I don't want to have to listen to all the vulgar and foul language so often seen in these games, then I can join a religious guild and have people to interact who are not going to insult me with those things.  I also have a safe haven to bring my grandchildren to where I don't need to worry about them being exposed to the things we work so hard to protect them from in real life.

I can also socialize...meaning chat...with people who share many of my same interests.  Our guild for example, talks about everything from cooking to books to education and yes, religious topics, one of which is learning Greek.  For me, this enhances the game experience 10 fold.  And I bet there are activities some of the rest of you engage in that are not strictly game related that make the games relevant in your life.

We ALL segregate ourselves to some extent in real life, whether we want to admit it or not.  That doesn't have to mean we have it out for a certain group, or hate a certain group, it just means that particular thing is not our thing and that is OK.  There are a lot of things going on in this world I don't like, and that I would like to change if I could, but I can't.  All I can do is live my life the way I believe I should live it and hope that my life may be of some help to someone else.

Now, if you WANT to discuss religion, or even debate that or any other issue, I am game, and I love it, but I REFUSE to argue.  I do love a good debate, an honest exchange of thoughts and ideas.  I have even been persuaded in a different direction on occasion.  Let me see, the last time was ah..............ah.................hmmmm, I can't remember:)  JUST KIDDING:)

A religious guild  in no way correlates to goodness. If anything  I would  say the  opposite is true.   Statistically  countries with less theist and more nontheist  have lower  crime rates  in all areas.  I actually find the notion that religious=goodness   insulting. After all most of the Gods in these books have commited genocide in one way or another.

Hannamerika

I said nothing about goodness, and you may be enlightened to know that the last thing any Christian would claim is "goodness".  We are Christians because we admit and recognize our lack thereof.  That having been said, I KNOW that no one in the guild,  is going to try to engage me in "sex talk" or use vulgar or foul language and remain a member.

pmw4friend

I agree with robokapp, it should not matter what your belief are everyone should accept others belief without judging.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Epicent
Eh, I'd   be happy  with an all  atheist guild but  you dont really see  those.

Probably because they don't "believe" in them.