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Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?
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I don't see an LGBT or religious guild as any different from an 18+ or 21+ guild, or a guild for people who have a similar background or taste in games/food/clothing/whatever. Any MMO should be a community made up of smaller communities and as long as everyone believes in live and let live then it's all good.
If the guild is all about actively promoting a particular position then that's a different story. In an MMO I want to play the game and not have someone shouting "Jesus is Lord!", "Vote Republican!" or "Legalise marriage for all!" in my chat channels. As we all should know, religion and politics are not good dinner table topics, and that should be the same in an MMO.
It all depends on whether these companies are doing just that. Otherwise, it falls in the government's lap to ensure the people are protected by the Bill of rights (or each country's equivalent name).
There are lawyers just ready to lobby against such companies, as they are private, for people's rights. I just find it a shame we need them since we obviously can't seem to do it ourselves.
Want to come help explain to my 10 year old why "N***er" is offensive, yet she hears it uncontrollably from her friends music? Yeah that one is slightly "above her pay grade". To her it is an absolute world, and being 10 it needs to be. When she is in my control, I censor what she sees and hears. My job it is. But when she is "outside" I cant. Having a 10 year old ask, "If it means such a bad thing, why do they use it?", is a bit of truth in its own right.
I guess this leads to the truth that in a "perfect" world, we wouldn't need such guilds. But even this thread shows we are not ready. ( see above for a post about LGBT yes, but religious is a no-no )
I find it as struggle on a daily basis to be a Libertarian, but it has made me stronger. I have to protect speech I find vile. I have to protect "your" right to do horrible things. But in the end I realize that without fighting for your rights I toss mine to the side. For us to rise above "terms, and slurs", we ALL need stop using ALL of them. I try. I struggle because my vocabulary is weak and most of these words carry power, that can be accessed quickly and easily. But I try, and sometimes I achieve some clever bits of wordage that in the end I am proud of.
When it comes right down to it, it all depends on the behavior of the religious guilds. The LGBT guilds are completely understandable. People playing in a social video game where this a live and thriving community may want to experience the game with other people that they can be comfortable in knowing are just like them. As a prosecuted minority they may feel uncomfortable if they have to experience coming out again if they join a guild and really start to get to know the members personally.
Religious guilds are a little bit more tricky. While the same above point can be used for religious guilds, I would have to include one requirement that they aren't pushing their views on other gamers. As someone mentioned earlier, if I were a parent I would certainly not want my child learning about religion from a video game. To me religious guilds seem a little more pointless considering there really isn't a need to group up together when mostly everyone playing a game will have one religion or the other. Being able to have the option though should be up to the players, as long as nobody is pushing their religious views onto other people.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
I don't feel threatened by some words on the net.
Your example is on point, but for a different argument. Like yelling "Fire!" is a crowded room. It can cause a riot and hurt people.
If some nut-job goes into a rant, let em rant. "Dog's don't bite while barking."
For a threat to be a threat in my book it needs to be credible. NoobKillerxXx, saying "I am going to kill you and skull Fu** you." in some random chat deserves a /report, but not much more in my book. Now a mob chanting with pitchforks and torches outside my door is a much more credible threat, and likely deserves my governments attention.....
I agree.
However, if the game has a 'Looking for Guild' tool where you can see in the guild's description that is "X" friendly then no problem. When the game doesn't, how would these guilds recruit in the first place without sounding like they were advertising (to those that are intolerant to "X").
I believe this is where those against these guilds might have an issue with. Seeing them recruiting and thinking 'Religion? GTFO!'
100% agree.
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I believe there is an actual case where someone is in jail because of a death threat in a game. Won't post the link as it irrelevant to the thread. It is criminal however, and should be policed.
Likely your friend actually did go out and spread the Word on occasion, but realized that there's a time and place for it, and the work place is definitely not the right environment to promote the gospel.
Same thing applies to game worlds, while I'm a believer I've never attempted to bring that to anyone's attention in game though my guild mates and friends are aware of it and it has come up on occasion in guild chat as part of casual conversation.
I've never joined a Christian only guild, but I respect people's right to do so. Needless to say I never have been a member of a guild with a name like "Satan's Raiders" or the "666-Mafia"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Again lucky for you they advertise as such and you can know who you are dealing with. I don't want my kid learning a host of things from public, and not me.
Four0SIx's tip of the day: "Don't let your kids on the net unattended. there are a bunch of jerks out there."
A Texas teen is in jail for making an off handed remark to a friend on FB, which was seen by an outside observer and misunderstood. He now sits in Jail. It based on gun-fear and not race or anything else. Over-reaching government again.
She's hearing N***a
not N***er
I don't condone the use of either, but the former is a term of endearment that some members within the black community use to refer to each other, while the other term is meant to be offensive.
This is a mistake that many make and probably should be pointed out more often.
I agree..and am part of a 25+ guild :P
It's about builing walls to keep out the types of people you don't want to be around. For some general chat is a great place to hang out. For others it's the first thing they turn off in a new mmo.
Surrounding yourself with like minded gamers is the best way to feel safe and be yourself. It has nothing to do with causing drama for other people. I'm sure most of them don't even know what goes on outside of the world of guild chat.
I am not religious and I am not L, G, B or T but people should be able to group with like minded individuals. Who are we to restrict their joy and freedom. Only exception, and this goes for any group, is if they aren't just mentioning they are religious or LGBT as noted in their Guild recruitment and begin to "preach", force their lifestyle on others screens, become publicly vulgar, or stir a useless debate drama.
As for immersion, any guild or player that goes out of character for a moment pretty much shatters immersion. Unless its a hardcore and enforced RP server this is pretty much a non-issue. Since I have yet to see ad hardcore and enforced RP server I have to say the immersion point is irrelevant on PVE, PVP servers since its fair game anyways.
The gun-fear is only incidental, the motive is the real issue. When it does become about race or religion, and the person uses a death threat. How can it not be taken as seriously?
Should it only be when a death threat is issued that someone should act? The fine line between hatred and trolling is not easily determined through the internet via words on a chat window.
These companies do have a responsibility to guarantee such behavior be unacceptable and held accountable, and the government must make sure these companies abide by it.
The issue of not trusting our government is another debate altogether, but who else would police companies that neglect to enforce these rights?
So gay guilds are ok but religious guilds are completely inappropriate? Total bullshit, either all are ok (which they are) or none, you have no right to restrict someone from doing something. And before you say anything else read your statement, look at how offensive it is to a certain group of individuals.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Like anything in public there are plenty of people of faith who live, breath, work and play along non believers. As a practicing Christian you'll never hear me try and convert someone while playing a game, just like I don't discuss politics or moral equivalencies. And I've been playing MMO's for 14+ years and I;ve never heard of any one group, whether it be the LBGT community or the Religious community trying to spread their viewpoints. As it should be. I am not saying it doesn't happen because I am sure it has, but by and large it is a non issue.
I look at it like this, I want to play with like minded individuals as far as gaming is concerned and I've had guildies who were actively gay as well as Christians who were nice enough to remind people to watch their language in vent chat. I'll play with anyone if their gaming goals are similar to mine. Gay or not, Christian or not.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Thing is, homosexual people usually don't try to convert you to homosexuality, specially not online where they aren't in physical contact with you. Something religions are actively doing since the dawn of time.
I see his point, even if religious guilds aren't a problem for me... I rather have them somewhere else than in my guild. It's a bit like silly names in MMORPG, it helps knowing which people you don't want to play with. No religious nut tells me how to play my games.
Personal opinions aside, I think need to avoid bashing people who happen to be religious. "Those types of people", "religious nut", "crazies", etc. sound innocuous, but it's really not.
It actually the kind of conversation content that would make someone who is religious think that they might need a group of like minded individuals to avoid that kind of thing.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If you are a member of one of these guilds then you are likely to be in favor of them.
If you are not a member of one of these guilds why do you care what they do? why are we obsessed with controlling how other people live or play or whatever?
All die, so die well.
People like to chat in these games and it's nice to have a safe environment where you will not be attacked or judged by comments that some people find offensive. Creating a guild for gay members provides that safe environment to be who you are and not be attacked or ridiculed because you let slip that you find some celebrity attractive and you happen to both be men. I can't tell you how many "regular" guilds I have been in where all kinds of discussions take place, most having nothing to do with the game. I don't see why people like you would take issue with specialized guilds that allow discussions on topics that won't upset more easily offended people like you.
Obviously you have no idea why these kinds of guilds exist if you think it's about propaganda or an agenda to subvert the game somehow. In fact, you should be happy they exist, this keeps discussions you obviously don't like in guild chat rather than world chat.
You don't have to advertise a straight only guild, it's implied by the very nature of our ingrained social structure. It's this very reason why specialized guilds "have" to advertise in order to find others of like mind. Heteros have dominated every aspect of life to this date and will probably continue to do so no matter how "open" things become in the future. You don't have to fight for space that you guys already own. We have to fight for space, because you guys go out of your way to not give it to us. Some day, we won't have to fight for legitimacy and it therefore will not be so "in your face" as we no longer have to scream to be heard, nor march to be seen as human.
Heterosexuals make these kinds of comments in games all the time, but because it's mainstream, no one gives a damn. How do you think homosexuals feel when heterosexuality is forced upon them on a daily basis, yet we get berated if we make a single comment about our lives that you don't feel comfortable with?
Thing is, homosexual people usually don't try to convert you to homosexuality, specially not online where they aren't in physical contact with you. Something religions are actively doing since the dawn of time. I see his point, even if religious guilds aren't a problem for me... I rather have them somewhere else than in my guild. It's a bit like silly names in MMORPG, it helps knowing which people you don't want to play with. No religious nut tells me how to play my games.
No but some homosexuals, thankfully few, will try to force you to accept their lifestyle in ways they have no business intruding into. Bad behavior isn't limited to or excluded from any group. There is no moral high ground for bad behavior. Religious groups are no worse than groups that wear beanies with propellers on their heads.
Heterosexuals make these kinds of comments in games all the time, but because it's mainstream, no one gives a damn. How do you think homosexuals feel when heterosexuality is forced upon them on a daily basis, yet we get berated if we make a single comment about our lives that you don't feel comfortable with?
Be careful with the insults and be careful with feeling like your being insulted here. We've made it a lot farther with this thread than I thought we would, let's not start a war now and blow it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Your missing the point, its your perception of what the avg guild is like, is exactly the problem.
I have been in many guilds and there were always females around, and I am sure there were gays there too, and of course many other races.
I say race because it does matter, a guild can be by race, by gender, or by religious affiliation. It shouldn't matter.
If you build your guild based on the perception that most other guilds are full of "hetero white dudes", then you are no better than the jerks who make crappy remarks to females or gays.
You cannot have it both ways.
EDIT for spelling!
Whatever happened to the days where people just played the game with others because they enjoyed the same game?
I like to approach MMO guilds the same way a 5-year old approaches kindergarten... you don't need to know who people are, where they come from or what their belief systems may be because the only rule the teacher has is to PLAY NICE, which should really be the only requirement of any guild worth playing in.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.