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Why Are People Against the Holy Trinity in Games?
Talint
Member UncommonPosts: 168
Hello,
I pose a discussion question to you all. Why are people, so much against the holy trinity in MMOs now. I myself am a healer at heart - always have been, always will be. I am not a DPSer, I find DPSing menial. Once you have mastered a rotation, it always comes down to hitting that rotation and moving around from boss mechanics. Gear and game mechanics (by which I mean how each class is developed) becomes the next big point on who can dish out the most DPS - NOT skill.
I will use WoW as an example (even though I know most here on MMORPG.com are against it) - Elemental Shamans. They have ALWAYS been bad. A best in slot geared Elemental Shaman will NEVER out dps a best in slot geared - Insert Class Here - (especially if both people have equal skill with their rotation)
Games like GW2 took out the holy trinity and gave every class a way to heal themselves, and every class a way to avoid damage. This takes me and people who solely play Tanks, completely out of the equation. Sure I could play Engineer and drop medpac and turrets to help heal, or play a Paladin and attempt to mitigate some damage, but that is not the true place of these classes. This leaves me to play as a DPS, something I have never liked in MMOs - it gets boring quickly for me.
So I will again state the question - Why are people so much against holy trinities? I look forward to reading your answers.
Talint
Comments
I'm not against it. It's just EQN won't have it.
Arguing its merits for this game is useless.
Because it won't have it.
Discussing possible ways that EQN might resolve the inherent issues that removing Trinity might cause is productive.
Better yet, valuable ideas that are born from the productive discussion could be sent to the Dev team; since they seem to be asking the community for a lot of involvement.
Holy trinity is a static combat tactic that is dull and boring.
Healer: press 1
Healer press 1
Healer press 1
Tank: press 1+2+3 to tank
Tank: press 1+2+3 to tank
Rest of the lot: DPS DPS DPS DPS
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
I like this response - and I agree with it. In games where holy trinities do not exist, it takes less of an approach on team play, and more on solo play. Sure, you are on a team, looking for the same goal - but you do not have to rely on anyone else.
It's a strange argument. According to you, and I believe you even though I do not know, the elemental shaman has worst dps. Well isn't it normal that one class is better than the other? There must be one best. It's impossible to balance them all equally in dps, not even sure if that's the goal.
But I can't give a reason why people hate the trinity, perhaps they'll come up with good answers here. Boring, already done, wow clone, need for change etc.
Question is, what could possibly work better? Do those people who hate the trinity even want coordinated fights?
Perhaps a system which would not require 3 roles, but 4? Has this been tried? I'm not talking about optional roles, I'm talking about required roles just like dps, tank and healer.
Well, it promotes more team play in my opinion. You always need a team to run group content. You need that healer, that Tank and those DPS to effectively go.
Like I find that the system in GW2 is cool and all but it pretty much creates a mindset of completing group content as fast as possible. People who like to support or tank seem to be out in the cold. Kind of sucks for the group dynamic.
So to make an good substitute for it, you have to give more reasons for people to group up. Not everybody wants to zerg the enemies over and over and over.....
IMO, I just think people think the Trinity is old and need something new without looking at how reliable it is. The Trinity doesn't need changed, just the way it is implemented.
Ditto, i feel exactly the same.
I can reduce everything to simple key presses and call it boring. It's not hard.
I don't think people are so much against it as they are bored with it and want to see something new.
The trinity works, and that has led to it being used for over a decade. The downside to this has been that very few games have ever tried to break that format and as such almost every game in the MMO genre has some form of trinity system in place not only because it works but because it is easy to implement.
I personally don't mind the trinity system, when done well. However it would always be nice to have more variety and if another better system could be found then that would be fantastic, but it won't happen if other options are never explored.
So changing that to all 5 being DPS changes what exactly? They are still doing: DPS DPS DPS but now they get hit by something and have to find a certain way to get to perfect health again. damaging that oh so cool dps they are trying to do.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
Well we don't know if that's what they have in mind. They say it's different from GW2.
We'll see.
Yes, but what I think you aren't understanding is not everyone likes to be a DPS. I myself cannot stand DPS. It is menial to me as I said in my original post. So forcing me to be a DPS is not something i like.
Really? I played two healers in WoW.. A holy Paly and Priest and even with Healbot, especially in raids there was NOTHING STATIC about it.. I was always watching health bars and locations.. and both classes healed differently and I played them differently..
Because playing a Trinity in a group require concentration, awareness and thinking.
People who look for a challenge love all of that.
Not every player look for a challenge when they play games though.............some just want to WIN (Easy and fast if possible)
I agree with this to some extent. I do think that there should be almost a fourth part to this.... "Trinity" - Support. CC, Buffs, and Debuff is something that I think a specific group of classes labeled as support classes, should have.
Im in the same boat m8. I love to Tank i was trying to point our to Torgrim that "just" removing the Trinity is boring all the same.
True.. the typical trinity which anymore is AOE taunt, Heals and AOE dps is boring as hell.. The trinity needs to be expanded so that other roles such as debuffing, CC and kiting are in play..
Ah - so if I'm reading this correctly you are saying that this movement from the hardcore MMO scene, to this casual scene that we are currently in is what is causing this sudden change in mechanics.
Awareness? HA. Maybe to an extent but as soon as you know the boss strategy then its not about awareness but timing. For example in 30 secs the center becomes engulfed in fire, so you have to move the boss to the right. Then back to the center in another 30 seconds. If you memorize this then its no longer thinking but following a scripted schedule. Ive tanked in Wow and Rift and paid little to no attention. Whose to say this smart AI wont try to flank the group or ambush it? All we can do is speculate. We have no idea how combat works, but that doesnt stop people from spouting "ZERGING GW2 CLONE LOLOL"
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
all of that already happens. dps classes have debuffs, everyone has some form of cc, and depending on the fight you're in, you will kite a boss instead of killing it.
WoW has all of that already. And im sure many other games do as well
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
This has been said many times.. and again I will raise the question here hoping for a unbiased response.. Assuming PETS are in the game via Pet Classes like Necro and Mage.... How does a pet hold agro? Because if they don't, the squishy will have to play tank/healer all by himself... RIGHT? Or are the mobs so easy that a squishy can solo then toe to toe without any problem? If that is the case, yeah.. we don't need tanks or healers.. just Zerg...
But keep in mind, if pet can hold agro, how smart are the mobs again? and what keeps groups from using pets as tanks instead of players..
Okay, so a follow up on that - what if we kept this trinity, and added this smart UI. Then it would be up to the Tank to pick up the changes to the boss mechanics.