The trinity is old and tired and way to familiar I don't hate it I just think is stale.
I like and embrace change keeps things fresh.
Some people make it sound like there can be only two possible options in an mmo - trinity or zerg. I call BS, the MMOs I've played usually offer so much more that most players wont explore because they default to the familiar, the trinity. I've played a lot of those odd classes that don't really fit into the trinity well. I don't believe most MMO makers start with basic question of: are we going to be a trinity game? I think they create a set of classes that they would like there players to have fun playing, all of the classes, not just the ones that support the trinity well.
If I were making a trinity game I would just have three basic classes tank, dps, and healer. I could perhaps have two options in each by splitting out melee and magic. Talk about dull.
I like it and I missed it in GW2. Playing FFXIV and RIFT now reminded me how nice it is to have a dedicated role. That being said, I think the class system they have planned in EQN (ala SKyrim) sounds interesting. We'll see how it plays out over the long haul.
Perhaps I want to do damage and healing thru buffs?
So when the mob hits me or another player there are shockwaves of heal done or maybe I place a quill spell with 4 rounds of quills that shoot out from the buffed person and do aoe damage. Perhaps I put a cloro-triglobe buff on and when struck by enemy one of the 3 blue globes pops providing massive regen and they stack upon bursting until all 3 are popped.
There are a great number of class combos I could think of that would be great fun and add to any game with group rolls.
What is the group dynamic without having a sort of trinity? How is the group a cohesive force exactly? Maybe I am missing something. And I am including the broader structure of trinity that EQ used. Not the WoW flavor.
I'm not against it. But I prefer games that don't have it.
The reason being: the first MMO I played did not have it. Along with my squad (of 6 who hunted together every night), we defined our own templates, filled group needs where we found tactical gaps, and evolved into a fighting unit that worked to our strengths, covered up our weaknesses, and was fun for each of us.
That game was SWG pre-CU, and it let us define our own in-game existence. The trinity didn't exist. I wouldn't have even known what that meant. I'm very glad that was my first MMO experience. I feel that I got to learn something more complex and consequential. To me, that makes the trinity seem like a dummy's guide to MMO combat.
I disagree. How can a developer see ALL permutations of a MOB situation? No I see it as a player imagination problem, being stuck wanting to play specific roles, and seeing none, decided to make roles. That is the issue. It has nothing to do with lack of imagination on A.Net's part.
Players, in general, are very unimaginative (and I count myself as one too). I can see you don't see that not having the trinity is a possible good thing. A good quot is what I will leave this discussion with -
Most of the DPS in the game revolve around Berserker.
But, OK, lets get imaginative and different. I really did enjoy playing a thief in GW2. And no, not a back stab or even any Berserker gear at all for that matter. I went 100% condition build. My gear was full Rabid. Played this toon unlike a traditional thief. I really didn't use Stealth at all. My thief is quite surprising really, It really is a bitch to kill. But even then, I was still reduced to kiting mobs through Dodge traited to drop caltrops then death blossom whenever available. Very very effective PVE build. But still, not very deep or involved.
So you played one build, of one class, in a game that has many different classes, each with multiple different playstyles and builds?
Yes, most condi builds revolve around kiting your opponent, because they prefer damange over time as opposed to burst. You're also playing the 2nd most squishy class in the game (after a pure glass DPS ele), so of course you're going to want to focus on taking less hits. Just because you're play style is not very deep or involved, doesn't mean the game isn't.
Take a look at classes like Engineer, Ele, Necro, or mesmer, and tell me how shallow they are? Heck, even though thief is one of the simpler classes on the surface, the part about staying alive with that class (but still being useful) gets very complex. Not to mention juggling that w/ efficient use of initiative (do I wanna go for the burst, or play it safe so i have some left over to escape if needed). I've been playing a lot more thief lately, and I find it fairly involved trying to gauge constantly whether I want to dump 6 initiative into a blinding powder, or save that initiative to shadowstep / stealth / dash away if things get bad. I don't play a backstab or condi build, I go with a more well-rounded d/p + sword/dagger setup. But that's the thing about the game, even withing the same class, we've already established 3 completely different playstyles that work. Without even diving in that deeply into mechanics.
So you played one build, of one class, in a game that has many different classes, each with multiple different playstyles and builds?
Yes, most condi builds revolve around kiting your opponent, because they prefer damange over time as opposed to burst. You're also playing the 2nd most squishy class in the game (after a pure glass DPS ele), so of course you're going to want to focus on taking less hits. Just because you're play style is not very deep or involved, doesn't mean the game isn't.
Take a look at classes like Engineer, Ele, Necro, or mesmer, and tell me how shallow they are? Heck, even though thief is one of the simpler classes on the surface, the part about staying alive with that class (but still being useful) gets very complex. Not to mention juggling that w/ efficient use of initiative (do I wanna go for the burst, or play it safe so i have some left over to escape if needed). I've been playing a lot more thief lately, and I find it fairly involved trying to gauge constantly whether I want to dump 6 initiative into a blinding powder, or save that initiative to shadowstep / stealth / dash away if things get bad. I don't play a backstab or condi build, I go with a more well-rounded d/p + sword/dagger setup. But that's the thing about the game, even withing the same class, we've already established 3 completely different playstyles that work. Without even diving in that deeply into mechanics.
LOL, no, I have been around the game a lot more than one build in one class. I have played GW2 extensively.
Every single one of those has at least 2-3 full sets of exotics with different builds for different purposes. The highest is the Engineer who has 40 AR and I did very well in the mid level Fractals. I know what I am doing. I assure you, I am not some forum troll who played GW2 for a week leaving my level 30 Ranger in Kessex Hills to come here and complaing about the lack of endgame. I've enjoyed this game quite a bit. I've had numerous in depth conversations with a lot of people actively playing the game. I've shared many experiences with people in RaidCall, TS, Mumble and Vent. I haven't always agreed with them, but their points are usually as valid as anyone else's in that situation. I am very familiar with this game's shortcomings. And so are the many many others I have conversed with. GW2 is by no means a failure, I've rather enjoyed playing it. But one thing is clear. The GW2 version of a Trinity-less combat system is no replacement for the traditional. It's just another system that functions but isn't really better.
But I shall use some facts about GW2 to illustrate why the combat and ability system is shallow.
We can start off by looking at the character builds. The Trait system they have is excellent. I love it. The way I can tweak my character's builds for my own playstyle is among the best I've seen. Unfortunately, they still haven't been successful from breaking the Cookie Cutter build issue. Why? The action bar/combat/equipped weapon system destroys it. Turns the whole thing into a button spam.
Looking at my Thief, I enjoy both the full Berzerker build with Dagger/Dagger. And also the Bleed build with Dagger/Dagger.
This is where I noticed an issue. Looking at the 1st 3 abilities, Backstab, Heartseeker and Deathbloosm. They exist for any thief using D/D regardless of build. Yet one of those abilities is for condition build thieves and the other 2 aren't So no matter which build I was using, I've got an already limited slot taken by an ability I won't use with that build.
I noticed the same thing using a scepter on my Necro. Depending on the build, I would prefer certain abilities and not use others since different abilities are geared for different builds. But they are tied to the weapon and are always there and they take up slots. So now yo ureally have even fewer effective abilities.
This is a very bad way to design a game. And now it may be that SoE is following suit with EQN? LOL.
I used to be against it, then I played GW2 and realized I missed it. Now I think it's a good thing to force people to specialize to give the game a bit of depth. I think the thing people dislike about the most is that it's not "fun" to be a tank or a healer, so there are very few of them making it harder to find groups.
I think we just need more games with "job" type systems like FF. Let's you specialize, but not be locked into it if you don't want to do that role all the time.
Some people love it and are usually good at it and well known for their skills. Most people don't play tanks/healers because it is boring and not fun. As is the whole trinity or being stuck in one role forever.
If someone wants to be a "tank" and knock mobs around and keep their team safe, EQN will offer that (watch the reveal video).
If someone wants to spam taunt or threat building abilities without much else, they probably won't find that.
Playing an active defensive role > taunting in place.
Being active, watching, and engaging in the fight > staring at threat-health bars go up and down on the sidelines.
Comments
The trinity is old and tired and way to familiar I don't hate it I just think is stale.
I like and embrace change keeps things fresh.
Some people make it sound like there can be only two possible options in an mmo - trinity or zerg. I call BS, the MMOs I've played usually offer so much more that most players wont explore because they default to the familiar, the trinity. I've played a lot of those odd classes that don't really fit into the trinity well. I don't believe most MMO makers start with basic question of: are we going to be a trinity game? I think they create a set of classes that they would like there players to have fun playing, all of the classes, not just the ones that support the trinity well.
If I were making a trinity game I would just have three basic classes tank, dps, and healer. I could perhaps have two options in each by splitting out melee and magic. Talk about dull.
As long as there is an alternative that:
A) Plays heavily off of class synergies
C) Is still rules-based (stats-driven) offering control
Then I think it's fine to not have tanks or healers.
What if I enjoy mainly healing with some heavy cc and lighter damage style.
Does this mean that EQ Next is not the game for me? Move on? That was the past? Go cry in your honey nut cheerios???
I hope not. I hope that there will be a build I can make that will feel like that or perhaps even a class that is designed more in that direction.
No bitchers.
Perhaps I want to do damage and healing thru buffs?
So when the mob hits me or another player there are shockwaves of heal done or maybe I place a quill spell with 4 rounds of quills that shoot out from the buffed person and do aoe damage. Perhaps I put a cloro-triglobe buff on and when struck by enemy one of the 3 blue globes pops providing massive regen and they stack upon bursting until all 3 are popped.
There are a great number of class combos I could think of that would be great fun and add to any game with group rolls.
What is the group dynamic without having a sort of trinity? How is the group a cohesive force exactly? Maybe I am missing something. And I am including the broader structure of trinity that EQ used. Not the WoW flavor.
I'm not against it. But I prefer games that don't have it.
The reason being: the first MMO I played did not have it. Along with my squad (of 6 who hunted together every night), we defined our own templates, filled group needs where we found tactical gaps, and evolved into a fighting unit that worked to our strengths, covered up our weaknesses, and was fun for each of us.
That game was SWG pre-CU, and it let us define our own in-game existence. The trinity didn't exist. I wouldn't have even known what that meant. I'm very glad that was my first MMO experience. I feel that I got to learn something more complex and consequential. To me, that makes the trinity seem like a dummy's guide to MMO combat.
So you played one build, of one class, in a game that has many different classes, each with multiple different playstyles and builds?
Yes, most condi builds revolve around kiting your opponent, because they prefer damange over time as opposed to burst. You're also playing the 2nd most squishy class in the game (after a pure glass DPS ele), so of course you're going to want to focus on taking less hits. Just because you're play style is not very deep or involved, doesn't mean the game isn't.
Take a look at classes like Engineer, Ele, Necro, or mesmer, and tell me how shallow they are? Heck, even though thief is one of the simpler classes on the surface, the part about staying alive with that class (but still being useful) gets very complex. Not to mention juggling that w/ efficient use of initiative (do I wanna go for the burst, or play it safe so i have some left over to escape if needed). I've been playing a lot more thief lately, and I find it fairly involved trying to gauge constantly whether I want to dump 6 initiative into a blinding powder, or save that initiative to shadowstep / stealth / dash away if things get bad. I don't play a backstab or condi build, I go with a more well-rounded d/p + sword/dagger setup. But that's the thing about the game, even withing the same class, we've already established 3 completely different playstyles that work. Without even diving in that deeply into mechanics.
LOL, no, I have been around the game a lot more than one build in one class. I have played GW2 extensively.
Every single one of those has at least 2-3 full sets of exotics with different builds for different purposes. The highest is the Engineer who has 40 AR and I did very well in the mid level Fractals. I know what I am doing. I assure you, I am not some forum troll who played GW2 for a week leaving my level 30 Ranger in Kessex Hills to come here and complaing about the lack of endgame. I've enjoyed this game quite a bit. I've had numerous in depth conversations with a lot of people actively playing the game. I've shared many experiences with people in RaidCall, TS, Mumble and Vent. I haven't always agreed with them, but their points are usually as valid as anyone else's in that situation. I am very familiar with this game's shortcomings. And so are the many many others I have conversed with. GW2 is by no means a failure, I've rather enjoyed playing it. But one thing is clear. The GW2 version of a Trinity-less combat system is no replacement for the traditional. It's just another system that functions but isn't really better.
But I shall use some facts about GW2 to illustrate why the combat and ability system is shallow.
We can start off by looking at the character builds. The Trait system they have is excellent. I love it. The way I can tweak my character's builds for my own playstyle is among the best I've seen. Unfortunately, they still haven't been successful from breaking the Cookie Cutter build issue. Why? The action bar/combat/equipped weapon system destroys it. Turns the whole thing into a button spam.
Looking at my Thief, I enjoy both the full Berzerker build with Dagger/Dagger. And also the Bleed build with Dagger/Dagger.
This is where I noticed an issue. Looking at the 1st 3 abilities, Backstab, Heartseeker and Deathbloosm. They exist for any thief using D/D regardless of build. Yet one of those abilities is for condition build thieves and the other 2 aren't So no matter which build I was using, I've got an already limited slot taken by an ability I won't use with that build.
I noticed the same thing using a scepter on my Necro. Depending on the build, I would prefer certain abilities and not use others since different abilities are geared for different builds. But they are tied to the weapon and are always there and they take up slots. So now yo ureally have even fewer effective abilities.
This is a very bad way to design a game. And now it may be that SoE is following suit with EQN? LOL.
That's probably one of the most retarded comments i've ever seen.
I dont think you know what holy-trinity means. If you do that in a MMORPG then the flaw lies in the game you're playing.
Some people love it and are usually good at it and well known for their skills. Most people don't play tanks/healers because it is boring and not fun. As is the whole trinity or being stuck in one role forever.
If someone wants to be a "tank" and knock mobs around and keep their team safe, EQN will offer that (watch the reveal video).
If someone wants to spam taunt or threat building abilities without much else, they probably won't find that.
Playing an active defensive role > taunting in place.
Being active, watching, and engaging in the fight > staring at threat-health bars go up and down on the sidelines.