It depends what kind of trinity we're talking about.
Tank - healer - dps : I find this boring.
Tank - healer - damage - cc - support : I find this fantastic.
again, pretty much any game with a trinity already has this. you guys are asking for the wrong things. the tools are there, the reasons to use said tools are whats lacking.
As my example of how WoW already has tank - healer - damage - cc - support roles, the problem is not having those roles, the problem is the encounters not needing them. In Vanilla WoW/BC you needed to use those cc/support roles to survive. Now, you do not. That is the problem with current gen games. It is not a fault of the trinity system. It is a fault of the devs dumbing down our games.
Even if you switch to action combat, nothing will change. Devs will still be dumbing down our games. Until devs stop making things easier and easier for the growing casual 5-minute a week crowd, no matter what mechanics they put into our games, its gonna be a mindless play regardless.
What we're saying is expand the classes more. Take the CC and other support abilities out of the DPS, Tank, and Healer classes, and make a class that does specifically this. We're not talking about wanting to keep the holy trinity of Tank, DPS, Healer. We want an expansion of the holy trinity.
Basically if you look at how games like GW2 are, the games that took away the holy trinity - all they did was combined all of the classes into one. They gave every class a way to heal, every class a way to avoid / mitigate damage, and every class a way to DPS. This is something that I, and many other people DO NOT want. We don't want every class being able to do everything - That isn't fun.
Yes I never played EQ as I was Seven when it came out. It seems like you are wishing for EQ1 2.0 which is delusional. If they wanted EQ1 2.0 they would just upgrade EQ1 graphics engine. You vets are not getting EQ1 2.0 so stop calling the game bad (never said you did, generalizing) because it wont be EQ1 2.0. This is Everquest Next. They never said it would be EQ1 2.0 They said it would be familiar yet different. The world Of Norrath is familiar, the races, ect ect. But the game mechanics dont have to mimic EQ1.
No you don't get it
We don't want EQ 2.0, there is already an EQ 2.0 with better graphics, that's Vanguard.
That's not what we want, we moved on as well.
We want an evolution of Everquest.
Keep the core features of what made Everquest great, add some Sandbox features, a more accessable UI blended together with modern technology (and better graphics).
What we ask is something like: EQNext + the original Everquest Trinity (Tank, Heal, DPS, CC, Puller) + Dungeon Crawling and Raids (optional, not as the main content like in the old EQ)
Until we see the whole game in action how do you know its not an evolution of EQ? We dont. Ive talked to EQ vets I know and most if not all have said "This looks awesome, just need more info before I truly make an opinion" So far the ones I know are happy. Again I ask how do we know its not an evolution of EQ?
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
It depends what kind of trinity we're talking about.
Tank - healer - dps : I find this boring.
Tank - healer - damage - cc - support : I find this fantastic.
again, pretty much any game with a trinity already has this. you guys are asking for the wrong things. the tools are there, the reasons to use said tools are whats lacking.
Nope 95% of games that use a Trinity System use the first line up (Tank+Heale+DPS)
The only ones that uses correctly the Trinity with Tank+Heal+DPS+CC+Support+Puller are, Everquest, WoW Vanilla and Vanguard.
Not that many.
And Everquest was the biggest MMO of its time and WoW is the biggest of our time (Vanguard was a bad clone of EQ and failed for a million of different reasons)
Discussing possible ways that EQN might resolve the inherent issues that removing Trinity might cause is productive.
Better yet, valuable ideas that are born from the productive discussion could be sent to the Dev team; since they seem to be asking the community for a lot of involvement.
Have you not reliezed yet that every game says that they are breaking the mold but end up just being the same old crap. This game is no exception. Warhammer, aion, aoc, lotr, swtor, and a ton others I can think of all said that we are different. This game may have a few features that allow you a bit of individualism over all its the same old crap. The secret world and defiance both talked about no levels and grinding and they both ended up being two of the worst grinding games plus they just reworked the "levels" into just another variation of you cant do this till you get that. Why do people trash the trinity. Mainly because people are tired of the trinity, devs only do it because its easier than actual thinking a game through to its end, takes player skill completely out of the game because your winning is based on numbers not twich, and most of all. The trinity sucks donkey ass. People are tired of being one type of toon instead of in real life where people can be multiple types of toons or at least versatile so you don't have to wait at a cave entrance for a mage who can range fight and healer who just boring rezzes.
"AI is smarter!" - but you haven't even seen it yet.
"Trinity is outdated" - but will still be in ALL your games
"CC, debuff, control, support, blah blah blah" - has always been there in every game, usually in every class
"Action combat is better because..." - you like console games that only have as much depth as the dvd can hold?
"I watched youtube and memorized...." - I watched SOE change your world with nothing but the most basic of tech demos and doublespeak
"Trinity builds stability..." - but the AI nobody knows anything about will break that apart
"Button mashing..." - will still be done, trinity or not. probably even moreso and even faster with the ability limitations
"This post is retarded" - this whole argument is retarded
I don't like the direction EQN is going, there's nothing new on the table and only the wind out of Smedley's ass telling you what to believe. I've argued my points, trolled posts, and given Smedley the finger yet again. I'll be in TESO, you guys can keep arguing myth vs. fable until maybe someday SOE releases something that can be used to prove one case or the other.
My opinion on why the trinity need to go is one its not true to rpg maybe for games made where a trinity is needed like EQ2 and WoW for example. But when I here warrior I think a front line fighter and Paladin I think holy knight one that protects those around him. I also hear cleric I dont think healer I think a warrior gifted by gods and a druid a protector of the wood a ranger is not just a ranged person they are not pet people always but someone that knows the ins and outs of the wilderness a rogue is a thief someone who steals and pick lock and yes can get a good attack from behind a target but none of these are that in a mmo they are tank, healer, and dps.
Thats why I think they need to drop the whole agro thing needs to go and move to something else just because a warrior can't taunt of have threat skills does not mean they are not warriors because they still can be a heavy warrior who uses knock backs and stuns like in some games to keep the mobs from charging the other members of a group and then the rogue could sneak past and start on the lock of the chest while the mage cast a hold spell and then lightning and the cleric can cast a buff on the party to help protect them while the pally empowers the group to deal some extra dmg then the ranger uses a snare and then jumps into strike with his sword and axe. Thats how a fight should be but instead we have tanks gets agro dps starts doing dmg if CCis in the game then they do dmg till CC is needed then you have the healer watching to see if anyone needs healing while the tank keeps all agro on him unless adds spawn then a off tank grabs them and holds them while some of the group work them down with AOE's and such then its back to the boss. To me that latter is not having fun its being stuck in a routine of just doing that and to me thats just not the way it should be because then everything becomes build only around that when you should have dungeons set for any group set up and also raids should work with any group make up as well but they dont they work only if you have as stated above which is Tank,Healer, CC, and DPS.
So thats it in a nut shell.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Until we see the whole game in action how do you know its not an evolution of EQ? We dont. Ive talked to EQ vets I know and most if not all have said "This looks awesome, just need more info before I truly make an opinion" So far the ones I know are happy. Again I ask how do we know its not an evolution of EQ?
It's missing the original EQ Trinity which was the Core feature of Everquest, the feature that created bonds, friendships and solid communities.
Without it, it is not Everquest.
And by the way I didn't shot the game down completely, it's not me.
Even though I am sorely disappointed, I am able of making some constructive criticism, just read my latest thread........
It depends what kind of trinity we're talking about.
Tank - healer - dps : I find this boring.
Tank - healer - damage - cc - support : I find this fantastic.
again, pretty much any game with a trinity already has this. you guys are asking for the wrong things. the tools are there, the reasons to use said tools are whats lacking.
Nope 95% of games that use a Trinity System use the first line up (Tank+Heale+DPS)
The only ones that uses correctly the Trinity with Tank+Heal+DPS+CC+Support+Puller are, Everquest, WoW Vanilla and Vanguard.
Not that many.
And Everquest was the biggest MMO of its time and WoW is the biggest of our time (Vanguard was a bad clone of EQ and failed for a million of different reasons)
lol if you read the 2nd half of my post you'd understand why thats the case.
like i said, the tooles are fine. whats lacking is a reason to use said tools. if you make a game and in the game you have a multitude of tools to choose from and use but you only have a reason to use 3 of the tools, what good does having the rest of the tools do? they just remain there stagnate and useless. that is the current state of most themepark games nowadays.
you are correct, EQ/WoW vanilla and vanguard(never played vanguard so im taking you at your word) both had the tools but more importantly they gave players a REASON, no a NEED to use those tools. the problem now is WoW vanilla and WoW are essentially the same game, tools wise, but whats changed is there is no longer a reason or need to use any of the cc/support tools of a class any longer so its devolved into merely tank/heal/dps. when it used to be tank/heal/dps/cc/support.
this is why i said, any game with a trinity system already has this expanded trinity that people are asking for. what people should be asking for instead is mobs/fights/encounters/etc that make us have to use those expanded roles in order to survive like EQ/Vanilla WoW/Vanguard did.
I pose a discussion question to you all. Why are people, so much against the holy trinity in MMOs now. I myself am a healer at heart - always have been, always will be. I am not a DPSer, I find DPSing menial. Once you have mastered a rotation, it always comes down to hitting that rotation and moving around from boss mechanics. Gear and game mechanics (by which I mean how each class is developed) becomes the next big point on who can dish out the most DPS - NOT skill.
I will use WoW as an example (even though I know most here on MMORPG.com are against it) - Elemental Shamans. They have ALWAYS been bad. A best in slot geared Elemental Shaman will NEVER out dps a best in slot geared - Insert Class Here - (especially if both people have equal skill with their rotation)
Games like GW2 took out the holy trinity and gave every class a way to heal themselves, and every class a way to avoid damage. This takes me and people who solely play Tanks, completely out of the equation. Sure I could play Engineer and drop medpac and turrets to help heal, or play a Paladin and attempt to mitigate some damage, but that is not the true place of these classes. This leaves me to play as a DPS, something I have never liked in MMOs - it gets boring quickly for me.
So I will again state the question - Why are people so much against holy trinities? I look forward to reading your answers.
Talint
While the trinity can be a lot of fun, it's also very simplistic and has some fundamental problems that many gamers are tired of dealing with.
- If you are one of those who enjoy playing a dedicated healer, or tank, the trinity is awesome. ALL groups depend on you, and you always have the easiest times finding groups. It's not uncommon for groups to completely bend their playtimes around when the healer or tank is available. They are that vital.
For everyone else, they have to wait on you (or people like you) to be available, if they want to get anything done. It sucks. No one likes to wait in a que for an hour, or spend hours spamming LFG in zone chat like in so many of these trinity based games. Even if there is a LFG / LFR tool available it's still an issue. Such tools were invented in an afford to specifically alleviate some of these hardships. This is a problem that continues to exist in trinity games, one I even experienced in TSW, Rift, & phase 3 of the FFXIV beta.
- Secondly, trinity based combat tends to simplify combat a bit too much for some players. Things like sitting back & spamming the optimal DPS rotation or your DPS macros (rift) do get very boring. Same thing goes for tank & spank, or sitting back and just play spam the heals on the tank. It gets mind numbing.
- The trinity system also creates problems when it comes to PvP. Not only do the same issues persist into PvE, but some of these same vital classes (mainly tanks) are often rendered useless, because of how artificial their mechanic actually is. Some games (like DAoC / WAR) have made attempts to rectify this issue, but neither fully accomplished it. There also tends to be a problem with one side having too many healers & the other too few. It's a mess.
** As for GW2 (one of the few MMOs out there atm, not focused around a trinity), the focus of classes is obviously going to be different. It's a different mechanic.
However, that doesn't mean that there's no roles for support classes, or people that want to be vital to the group. For one, things like combo fields (water, fire, lightning, light, smoke, earth) greatly benefit the group when used properly. Having an area that you can just blast for an easy 1-2k AoE heal is a big deal in that game. Furthermore being able to buff the group w/ might, protection, retaliation, regen, swiftness, fury.. they make a significant impact. This doesn't even get into things like banners, turrets, more focused heals, reflection areas, stealth, etc. etc. etc.
Yes, it's very much different than spamming heals or threat on a health bar. But it also leaves a lot more open to tactical decision making, and formulating your own strategies based on the classes available in your group. Something you don't tend to see in trinity based games, and something many players do enjoy.
*** Again, not saying the trinity is necessarily bad, but it is simplistic, dated, and has some fundamental issues. I still enjoy playing trinity games, but nearly every MMO atm is based around a trinity. It would be nice to finally start getting some variety on that front. Imho.
Whats the point of improving mob AI if it just comes down to the holy trinity system? Because smart AI would be focused on the healer no matter how many times the tank tries to taunt him, making the skill obsolete. And they wouldnt be following around a kiter like an idiot accomplishing nothing. A group mob with smart AI would be spreading the damage to the player group to make it difficult for the healer to keep everyone alive while focusing most of their damage to the healer and have some keeping the tank busy.
Basically because of the trinity system, mmos will always have dumb AI. Thats why in mmos that doesnt have trinity needs things like collision and other mechanics that physically controls the battlefield and not abilities that just plays with the Mobs AI like taunt to control the battlefield. Abilities that block, daze, trap, stun, teleport, throw, double jump. Things that physically control the enemies. Trinity system just doesnt feel right with action combat, only with traditional turn-based auto-attack tab targeting it feels right but that system of combat sacrifices improved AI. True action combat requires a lot of movement and positioning.
Whats the point of improving mob AI if it just comes down to the holy trinity system? Because smart AI would be focused on the healer no matter how many times the tank tries to taunt him, making the skill obsolete. And they wouldnt be following around a kiter like an idiot accomplishing nothing. A group mob with smart AI would be spreading the damage to the player group to make it difficult for the healer to keep everyone alive while focusing most of their damage to the healer and have some keeping the tank busy.
Basically because of the trinity system, mmos will always have dumb AI. Thats why in mmos that doesnt have trinity needs things like collision and other mechanics that physically controls the battlefield and not abilities that just plays with the Mobs AI like taunt to control the battlefield. Abilities that block, daze, trap, stun, teleport, throw, double jump. Things that physically control the enemies. Trinity system just doesnt feel right with action combat, only with traditional turn-based auto-attack tab targeting it feels right but that system of combat sacrifices improved AI. True action combat requires a lot of movement and positioning.
Whats the point of improving mob AI if it just comes down to the holy trinity system? Because smart AI would be focused on the healer no matter how many times the tank tries to taunt him, making the skill obsolete. And they wouldnt be following around a kiter like an idiot accomplishing nothing. A group mob with smart AI would be spreading the damage to the player group to make it difficult for the healer to keep everyone alive while focusing most of their damage to the healer and have some keeping the tank busy.
Basically because of the trinity system, mmos will always have dumb AI. Thats why in mmos that doesnt have trinity needs things like collision and other mechanics that physically controls the battlefield and not abilities that just plays with the Mobs AI like taunt to control the battlefield. Abilities that block, daze, trap, stun, teleport, throw, double jump. Things that physically control the enemies. Trinity system just doesnt feel right with action combat, only with traditional turn-based auto-attack tab targeting it feels right but that system of combat sacrifices improved AI. True action combat requires a lot of movement and positioning.
Correct me if i'm wrong. In your mind Trinity system goes like this :Mob attack tank 75% of the time, 25% of the time is on whoever pulls aggro, usually healer or high dps.
Smart AI Mob attack healer 75% of the time, 25% of the time is on everyone else to make healer job harder.
"It's not how my favorite game [x] did/does it". Same as virtually every other opinion expressed on this board.
Sometimes it's even less complex than that--It's how WoW did it. I hate WoW. By extension, it sucks.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Whats the point of improving mob AI if it just comes down to the holy trinity system? Because smart AI would be focused on the healer no matter how many times the tank tries to taunt him, making the skill obsolete. And they wouldnt be following around a kiter like an idiot accomplishing nothing. A group mob with smart AI would be spreading the damage to the player group to make it difficult for the healer to keep everyone alive while focusing most of their damage to the healer and have some keeping the tank busy.
Basically because of the trinity system, mmos will always have dumb AI. Thats why in mmos that doesnt have trinity needs things like collision and other mechanics that physically controls the battlefield and not abilities that just plays with the Mobs AI like taunt to control the battlefield. Abilities that block, daze, trap, stun, teleport, throw, double jump. Things that physically control the enemies. Trinity system just doesnt feel right with action combat, only with traditional turn-based auto-attack tab targeting it feels right but that system of combat sacrifices improved AI. True action combat requires a lot of movement and positioning.
Well said.
Well I tried to say the same above but you say it better. Agreed
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Whats the point of improving mob AI if it just comes down to the holy trinity system? Because smart AI would be focused on the healer no matter how many times the tank tries to taunt him, making the skill obsolete. And they wouldnt be following around a kiter like an idiot accomplishing nothing. A group mob with smart AI would be spreading the damage to the player group to make it difficult for the healer to keep everyone alive while focusing most of their damage to the healer and have some keeping the tank busy.
Basically because of the trinity system, mmos will always have dumb AI. Thats why in mmos that doesnt have trinity needs things like collision and other mechanics that physically controls the battlefield and not abilities that just plays with the Mobs AI like taunt to control the battlefield. Abilities that block, daze, trap, stun, teleport, throw, double jump. Things that physically control the enemies. Trinity system just doesnt feel right with action combat, only with traditional turn-based auto-attack tab targeting it feels right but that system of combat sacrifices improved AI. True action combat requires a lot of movement and positioning.
Yet I still don't hear any of you pro imaginary-unicorn-powered-super-godlike-smedleyr0x0rz! AI fans suggesting that ranged classes should be able to aim as well. Sure, it's great if a mob can't hit you because of this or that in the way, but what if you've got a bow and you just plain suck with it? What if the mob is smart enough to use the terrain against you? (such as popping up over a wall, sniping at you while you're in the open, then ducking back down long before your crappy bow wielding archer with the coke bottle bottom glasses can take 30 seconds to aim at... and while you're focused on it, 20 of its friends jack you from behind) The forums will be flooded with "Mob x is too OP!"
Smart AI isn't going to save you from stupid players, and keeping the mechanics easy while telling you the AI is getting smarter only makes you feel good about yourself when you really really shouldn't lol
Originally posted by Deolus Holy trinity is great if you are a tank or a healer as you always get groups. Unfortunately the majority of players tend to play dps classes. If there are no tanks or healers available then they either solo or stand around twiddling their thumbs.
QFE. This is exactly why people came to dislike the holy trinity.
Because playing a Trinity in a group require concentration, awareness and thinking.
People who look for a challenge love all of that.
Not every player look for a challenge when they play games though.............some just want to WIN (Easy and fast if possible)
This is rather short sighted, not to mention not well thought out. Trinity mechanics (typical MMO mechanics in general) are far less active than twitch based systems. The whole point of that is to allow communication (chat) during game-play. That alone takes away the need for complete 100% awareness. Twitch gaming requires complete attention (awareness) at pretty much all times. Which is why Voice chat is needed for communication.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Whats the point of improving mob AI if it just comes down to the holy trinity system? Because smart AI would be focused on the healer no matter how many times the tank tries to taunt him, making the skill obsolete. And they wouldnt be following around a kiter like an idiot accomplishing nothing. A group mob with smart AI would be spreading the damage to the player group to make it difficult for the healer to keep everyone alive while focusing most of their damage to the healer and have some keeping the tank busy.
Basically because of the trinity system, mmos will always have dumb AI. Thats why in mmos that doesnt have trinity needs things like collision and other mechanics that physically controls the battlefield and not abilities that just plays with the Mobs AI like taunt to control the battlefield. Abilities that block, daze, trap, stun, teleport, throw, double jump. Things that physically control the enemies. Trinity system just doesnt feel right with action combat, only with traditional turn-based auto-attack tab targeting it feels right but that system of combat sacrifices improved AI. True action combat requires a lot of movement and positioning.
Smart AI isn't going to save you from stupid players, and keeping the mechanics easy while telling you the AI is getting smarter only makes you feel good about yourself when you really really shouldn't lol
pretty much this, this is what i dont think people understand. they keep hailing smart ai smart ai. the game is still going to be as dumbed down as current WoW is. smart ai or action combat isn't gonna change that.
Originally posted by Deolus Holy trinity is great if you are a tank or a healer as you always get groups. Unfortunately the majority of players tend to play dps classes. If there are no tanks or healers available then they either solo or stand around twiddling their thumbs.
QFE. This is exactly why people came to dislike the holy trinity.
i never understood why there is so many dps anyway. its the most boring thing to do. while tanking and healing are very situational dps just stands there and hit the same button. Is it that healing and tanking is too hard?
Originally posted by Deolus Holy trinity is great if you are a tank or a healer as you always get groups. Unfortunately the majority of players tend to play dps classes. If there are no tanks or healers available then they either solo or stand around twiddling their thumbs.
QFE. This is exactly why people came to dislike the holy trinity.
i never understood why there is so many dps anyway. its the most boring thing to do. while tanking and healing are very situational dps just stands there and hit the same button. Is it that healing and tanking is too hard?
pretty much yes, its because its harder than dps. not to mention you finding dps boring is your opinion since most find tanking/healing to be the most boring which is another reason there are so few tanks/healers. also tanks have to pay out the ass for repair bills, nobody likes that. also there's not much competition when it comes to tanking or healing, yet when it comes to dps you're always going to have at least 1 or 2 more dps to compete against.
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by ste2000
Because playing a Trinity in a group require concentration, awareness and thinking.
People who look for a challenge love all of that.
Not every player look for a challenge when they play games though.............some just want to WIN (Easy and fast if possible)
This is rather short sighted, not to mention not well thought out. Trinity mechanics (typical MMO mechanics in general) are far less active than twitch based systems. The whole point of that is to allow communication (chat) during game-play. That alone takes away the need for complete 100% awareness. Twitch gaming requires complete attention (awareness) at pretty much all times. Which is why Voice chat is needed for communication.
so thats why there's so much communication going on in league matches. oh but wait, league is pretty much the staple game of twitch games....
It depends what kind of trinity we're talking about.
Tank - healer - dps : I find this boring.
Tank - healer - damage - cc - support : I find this fantastic.
again, pretty much any game with a trinity already has this. you guys are asking for the wrong things. the tools are there, the reasons to use said tools are whats lacking.
As my example of how WoW already has tank - healer - damage - cc - support roles, the problem is not having those roles, the problem is the encounters not needing them. In Vanilla WoW/BC you needed to use those cc/support roles to survive. Now, you do not. That is the problem with current gen games. It is not a fault of the trinity system. It is a fault of the devs dumbing down our games.
Even if you switch to action combat, nothing will change. Devs will still be dumbing down our games. Until devs stop making things easier and easier for the growing casual 5-minute a week crowd, no matter what mechanics they put into our games, its gonna be a mindless play regardless.
I was also implying that by having those expanded roles, we'd have a reason to use them. More specifically, a requirement to use them or content cannot be cleared otherwise.
It depends what kind of trinity we're talking about.
Tank - healer - dps : I find this boring.
Tank - healer - damage - cc - support : I find this fantastic.
again, pretty much any game with a trinity already has this. you guys are asking for the wrong things. the tools are there, the reasons to use said tools are whats lacking.
As my example of how WoW already has tank - healer - damage - cc - support roles, the problem is not having those roles, the problem is the encounters not needing them. In Vanilla WoW/BC you needed to use those cc/support roles to survive. Now, you do not. That is the problem with current gen games. It is not a fault of the trinity system. It is a fault of the devs dumbing down our games.
Even if you switch to action combat, nothing will change. Devs will still be dumbing down our games. Until devs stop making things easier and easier for the growing casual 5-minute a week crowd, no matter what mechanics they put into our games, its gonna be a mindless play regardless.
I was also implying that by having those expanded roles, we'd have a reason to use them. More specifically, a requirement to use them or content cannot be cleared otherwise.
if thats the case then that's the only thing thats missing from games, having dps classes also have cc or support roles that they can focus more on cc than dps or support more than dps isn't bad, the system is still as expanded if you were to have classes that could do nothing but cc or nothing but support. the only issue at hand is not having a reason to use those roles.
Originally posted by Deolus Holy trinity is great if you are a tank or a healer as you always get groups. Unfortunately the majority of players tend to play dps classes. If there are no tanks or healers available then they either solo or stand around twiddling their thumbs.
QFE. This is exactly why people came to dislike the holy trinity.
i never understood why there is so many dps anyway. its the most boring thing to do. while tanking and healing are very situational dps just stands there and hit the same button. Is it that healing and tanking is too hard?
pretty much yes, its because its harder than dps. also tanks have to pay out the ass for repair bills, nobody likes that. also there's not much competition when it comes to tanking or healing, yet when it comes to dps you're always going to have at least 1 or 2 more dps to compete against.
Snip*
Humz, i have always in any MMO played a Tank always my first, my main is a Tank in most cases our hearthy warrior. If a game is very group centric then those repair bills won't be a problem. I'l probply sound like an ass right now but it was a rare ocasion for anyone in my group to get hit so wed always split the total profit. and i got abit more then the others. The competition thing. You where always competing with yourself as a tank. Doing your job as perfectly as posible wheter it was body pulling/chainpulling things always to make sure your hold onto evrything wich was threathening your party. and it was rewarding to hear people thank you for a job well done.
this is why i said, any game with a trinity system already has this expanded trinity that people are asking for. what people should be asking for instead is mobs/fights/encounters/etc that make us have to use those expanded roles in order to survive like EQ/Vanilla WoW/Vanguard did.
You actually have a point and I agree with it.
But again, it is not the Trinity the problem is the devs that are not able to make it work as intended (in a way or anther).
A good Trinity system provide challenge, and challenge is what keep people hooked to something (until they overcome that challenge).
That's one of the secrets of player retention.................. as opposed to watering down content so it can be eaten in 2 months (causing a player exodus)
yea, i too long for the day when an MMO will go back to making leveling part of the game and not just a precursor of the game.
i played vanilla WoW for good and long hours each and everyday getting very little sleep at times and it still took me a couple months to hit max level. Back then you didn't have people with a hundred max level characters on 10 different servers. You couldn't just hit 1-max over the weekend even if you knew where all the quests were and what not. It still took time. That is the major downfall of games nowadays in my opinion.
Hell it took me that long to level in WoW, EQ was even worse, though i think thats more so due to the size of the EQ world, literally could end up running an hour just to get to a suitable leveling spot for your level. Hours if you ended up dying.
They spend all their resources on the end game and forgot to pay any attention to the between which is where the bulk of their resources should have gone towards. So now when you see games pop up and people hit max level in 3 days and start raiding on the 3rd or 4th day and finished all raid content by the 5th or 6th day and get bored and quit, i really wonder how did the devs expect things to happen any differently.
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What we're saying is expand the classes more. Take the CC and other support abilities out of the DPS, Tank, and Healer classes, and make a class that does specifically this. We're not talking about wanting to keep the holy trinity of Tank, DPS, Healer. We want an expansion of the holy trinity.
Basically if you look at how games like GW2 are, the games that took away the holy trinity - all they did was combined all of the classes into one. They gave every class a way to heal, every class a way to avoid / mitigate damage, and every class a way to DPS. This is something that I, and many other people DO NOT want. We don't want every class being able to do everything - That isn't fun.
Until we see the whole game in action how do you know its not an evolution of EQ? We dont. Ive talked to EQ vets I know and most if not all have said "This looks awesome, just need more info before I truly make an opinion" So far the ones I know are happy. Again I ask how do we know its not an evolution of EQ?
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Nope 95% of games that use a Trinity System use the first line up (Tank+Heale+DPS)
The only ones that uses correctly the Trinity with Tank+Heal+DPS+CC+Support+Puller are, Everquest, WoW Vanilla and Vanguard.
Not that many.
And Everquest was the biggest MMO of its time and WoW is the biggest of our time (Vanguard was a bad clone of EQ and failed for a million of different reasons)
"AI is smarter!" - but you haven't even seen it yet.
"Trinity is outdated" - but will still be in ALL your games
"CC, debuff, control, support, blah blah blah" - has always been there in every game, usually in every class
"Action combat is better because..." - you like console games that only have as much depth as the dvd can hold?
"I watched youtube and memorized...." - I watched SOE change your world with nothing but the most basic of tech demos and doublespeak
"Trinity builds stability..." - but the AI nobody knows anything about will break that apart
"Button mashing..." - will still be done, trinity or not. probably even moreso and even faster with the ability limitations
"This post is retarded" - this whole argument is retarded
I don't like the direction EQN is going, there's nothing new on the table and only the wind out of Smedley's ass telling you what to believe. I've argued my points, trolled posts, and given Smedley the finger yet again. I'll be in TESO, you guys can keep arguing myth vs. fable until maybe someday SOE releases something that can be used to prove one case or the other.
My opinion on why the trinity need to go is one its not true to rpg maybe for games made where a trinity is needed like EQ2 and WoW for example. But when I here warrior I think a front line fighter and Paladin I think holy knight one that protects those around him. I also hear cleric I dont think healer I think a warrior gifted by gods and a druid a protector of the wood a ranger is not just a ranged person they are not pet people always but someone that knows the ins and outs of the wilderness a rogue is a thief someone who steals and pick lock and yes can get a good attack from behind a target but none of these are that in a mmo they are tank, healer, and dps.
Thats why I think they need to drop the whole agro thing needs to go and move to something else just because a warrior can't taunt of have threat skills does not mean they are not warriors because they still can be a heavy warrior who uses knock backs and stuns like in some games to keep the mobs from charging the other members of a group and then the rogue could sneak past and start on the lock of the chest while the mage cast a hold spell and then lightning and the cleric can cast a buff on the party to help protect them while the pally empowers the group to deal some extra dmg then the ranger uses a snare and then jumps into strike with his sword and axe. Thats how a fight should be but instead we have tanks gets agro dps starts doing dmg if CCis in the game then they do dmg till CC is needed then you have the healer watching to see if anyone needs healing while the tank keeps all agro on him unless adds spawn then a off tank grabs them and holds them while some of the group work them down with AOE's and such then its back to the boss. To me that latter is not having fun its being stuck in a routine of just doing that and to me thats just not the way it should be because then everything becomes build only around that when you should have dungeons set for any group set up and also raids should work with any group make up as well but they dont they work only if you have as stated above which is Tank,Healer, CC, and DPS.
So thats it in a nut shell.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
It's missing the original EQ Trinity which was the Core feature of Everquest, the feature that created bonds, friendships and solid communities.
Without it, it is not Everquest.
And by the way I didn't shot the game down completely, it's not me.
Even though I am sorely disappointed, I am able of making some constructive criticism, just read my latest thread........
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/392498/EQNextlets-talk-about-it.html
lol if you read the 2nd half of my post you'd understand why thats the case.
like i said, the tooles are fine. whats lacking is a reason to use said tools. if you make a game and in the game you have a multitude of tools to choose from and use but you only have a reason to use 3 of the tools, what good does having the rest of the tools do? they just remain there stagnate and useless. that is the current state of most themepark games nowadays.
you are correct, EQ/WoW vanilla and vanguard(never played vanguard so im taking you at your word) both had the tools but more importantly they gave players a REASON, no a NEED to use those tools. the problem now is WoW vanilla and WoW are essentially the same game, tools wise, but whats changed is there is no longer a reason or need to use any of the cc/support tools of a class any longer so its devolved into merely tank/heal/dps. when it used to be tank/heal/dps/cc/support.
this is why i said, any game with a trinity system already has this expanded trinity that people are asking for. what people should be asking for instead is mobs/fights/encounters/etc that make us have to use those expanded roles in order to survive like EQ/Vanilla WoW/Vanguard did.
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While the trinity can be a lot of fun, it's also very simplistic and has some fundamental problems that many gamers are tired of dealing with.
- If you are one of those who enjoy playing a dedicated healer, or tank, the trinity is awesome. ALL groups depend on you, and you always have the easiest times finding groups. It's not uncommon for groups to completely bend their playtimes around when the healer or tank is available. They are that vital.
For everyone else, they have to wait on you (or people like you) to be available, if they want to get anything done. It sucks. No one likes to wait in a que for an hour, or spend hours spamming LFG in zone chat like in so many of these trinity based games. Even if there is a LFG / LFR tool available it's still an issue. Such tools were invented in an afford to specifically alleviate some of these hardships. This is a problem that continues to exist in trinity games, one I even experienced in TSW, Rift, & phase 3 of the FFXIV beta.
- Secondly, trinity based combat tends to simplify combat a bit too much for some players. Things like sitting back & spamming the optimal DPS rotation or your DPS macros (rift) do get very boring. Same thing goes for tank & spank, or sitting back and just play spam the heals on the tank. It gets mind numbing.
- The trinity system also creates problems when it comes to PvP. Not only do the same issues persist into PvE, but some of these same vital classes (mainly tanks) are often rendered useless, because of how artificial their mechanic actually is. Some games (like DAoC / WAR) have made attempts to rectify this issue, but neither fully accomplished it. There also tends to be a problem with one side having too many healers & the other too few. It's a mess.
** As for GW2 (one of the few MMOs out there atm, not focused around a trinity), the focus of classes is obviously going to be different. It's a different mechanic.
However, that doesn't mean that there's no roles for support classes, or people that want to be vital to the group. For one, things like combo fields (water, fire, lightning, light, smoke, earth) greatly benefit the group when used properly. Having an area that you can just blast for an easy 1-2k AoE heal is a big deal in that game. Furthermore being able to buff the group w/ might, protection, retaliation, regen, swiftness, fury.. they make a significant impact. This doesn't even get into things like banners, turrets, more focused heals, reflection areas, stealth, etc. etc. etc.
Yes, it's very much different than spamming heals or threat on a health bar. But it also leaves a lot more open to tactical decision making, and formulating your own strategies based on the classes available in your group. Something you don't tend to see in trinity based games, and something many players do enjoy.
*** Again, not saying the trinity is necessarily bad, but it is simplistic, dated, and has some fundamental issues. I still enjoy playing trinity games, but nearly every MMO atm is based around a trinity. It would be nice to finally start getting some variety on that front. Imho.
Whats the point of improving mob AI if it just comes down to the holy trinity system? Because smart AI would be focused on the healer no matter how many times the tank tries to taunt him, making the skill obsolete. And they wouldnt be following around a kiter like an idiot accomplishing nothing. A group mob with smart AI would be spreading the damage to the player group to make it difficult for the healer to keep everyone alive while focusing most of their damage to the healer and have some keeping the tank busy.
Basically because of the trinity system, mmos will always have dumb AI. Thats why in mmos that doesnt have trinity needs things like collision and other mechanics that physically controls the battlefield and not abilities that just plays with the Mobs AI like taunt to control the battlefield. Abilities that block, daze, trap, stun, teleport, throw, double jump. Things that physically control the enemies. Trinity system just doesnt feel right with action combat, only with traditional turn-based auto-attack tab targeting it feels right but that system of combat sacrifices improved AI. True action combat requires a lot of movement and positioning.
Well said.
Correct me if i'm wrong. In your mind Trinity system goes like this :Mob attack tank 75% of the time, 25% of the time is on whoever pulls aggro, usually healer or high dps.
Smart AI Mob attack healer 75% of the time, 25% of the time is on everyone else to make healer job harder.
Whats the difference again?
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"It's not how my favorite game [x] did/does it". Same as virtually every other opinion expressed on this board.
Sometimes it's even less complex than that--It's how WoW did it. I hate WoW. By extension, it sucks.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well I tried to say the same above but you say it better. Agreed
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
Yet I still don't hear any of you pro imaginary-unicorn-powered-super-godlike-smedleyr0x0rz! AI fans suggesting that ranged classes should be able to aim as well. Sure, it's great if a mob can't hit you because of this or that in the way, but what if you've got a bow and you just plain suck with it? What if the mob is smart enough to use the terrain against you? (such as popping up over a wall, sniping at you while you're in the open, then ducking back down long before your crappy bow wielding archer with the coke bottle bottom glasses can take 30 seconds to aim at... and while you're focused on it, 20 of its friends jack you from behind) The forums will be flooded with "Mob x is too OP!"
Smart AI isn't going to save you from stupid players, and keeping the mechanics easy while telling you the AI is getting smarter only makes you feel good about yourself when you really really shouldn't lol
QFE. This is exactly why people came to dislike the holy trinity.
This is rather short sighted, not to mention not well thought out. Trinity mechanics (typical MMO mechanics in general) are far less active than twitch based systems. The whole point of that is to allow communication (chat) during game-play. That alone takes away the need for complete 100% awareness. Twitch gaming requires complete attention (awareness) at pretty much all times. Which is why Voice chat is needed for communication.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
pretty much this, this is what i dont think people understand. they keep hailing smart ai smart ai. the game is still going to be as dumbed down as current WoW is. smart ai or action combat isn't gonna change that.
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i never understood why there is so many dps anyway. its the most boring thing to do. while tanking and healing are very situational dps just stands there and hit the same button. Is it that healing and tanking is too hard?
pretty much yes, its because its harder than dps. not to mention you finding dps boring is your opinion since most find tanking/healing to be the most boring which is another reason there are so few tanks/healers. also tanks have to pay out the ass for repair bills, nobody likes that. also there's not much competition when it comes to tanking or healing, yet when it comes to dps you're always going to have at least 1 or 2 more dps to compete against.
so thats why there's so much communication going on in league matches. oh but wait, league is pretty much the staple game of twitch games....Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
I was also implying that by having those expanded roles, we'd have a reason to use them. More specifically, a requirement to use them or content cannot be cleared otherwise.
if thats the case then that's the only thing thats missing from games, having dps classes also have cc or support roles that they can focus more on cc than dps or support more than dps isn't bad, the system is still as expanded if you were to have classes that could do nothing but cc or nothing but support. the only issue at hand is not having a reason to use those roles.
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Humz, i have always in any MMO played a Tank always my first, my main is a Tank in most cases our hearthy warrior. If a game is very group centric then those repair bills won't be a problem. I'l probply sound like an ass right now but it was a rare ocasion for anyone in my group to get hit so wed always split the total profit. and i got abit more then the others. The competition thing. You where always competing with yourself as a tank. Doing your job as perfectly as posible wheter it was body pulling/chainpulling things always to make sure your hold onto evrything wich was threathening your party. and it was rewarding to hear people thank you for a job well done.
You actually have a point and I agree with it.
But again, it is not the Trinity the problem is the devs that are not able to make it work as intended (in a way or anther).
A good Trinity system provide challenge, and challenge is what keep people hooked to something (until they overcome that challenge).
That's one of the secrets of player retention.................. as opposed to watering down content so it can be eaten in 2 months (causing a player exodus)
yea, i too long for the day when an MMO will go back to making leveling part of the game and not just a precursor of the game.
i played vanilla WoW for good and long hours each and everyday getting very little sleep at times and it still took me a couple months to hit max level. Back then you didn't have people with a hundred max level characters on 10 different servers. You couldn't just hit 1-max over the weekend even if you knew where all the quests were and what not. It still took time. That is the major downfall of games nowadays in my opinion.
Hell it took me that long to level in WoW, EQ was even worse, though i think thats more so due to the size of the EQ world, literally could end up running an hour just to get to a suitable leveling spot for your level. Hours if you ended up dying.
They spend all their resources on the end game and forgot to pay any attention to the between which is where the bulk of their resources should have gone towards. So now when you see games pop up and people hit max level in 3 days and start raiding on the 3rd or 4th day and finished all raid content by the 5th or 6th day and get bored and quit, i really wonder how did the devs expect things to happen any differently.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!