Originally posted by evilastro Nice comeback and spot on. They knew it was too early but had no choice.
Excuses are weak.
Where was the excuse?
They literally had no choice, SoE forced them to launch it. That's not an excuse, that's just a recount of history. An excuse would have been saying 'Oh we didn't finish it because half the development team were sick for 2 months'. The game never got the full development time that they had wanted, which is why it unsurprisingly released in an unfinished form.
I counted three excuses... keep reading till you see them.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Graffe managed to archive the only interview Brad gave right after most of Sigil was fired in a parking lot. The original interview has been deleted, it's worth a read if you're interested:
I think its funny that a lot of people in this thread hang their hopes on McQuaid because he did a good job on EQ, but then don't understand why other people don't, because he did a poor job on Vanguard.
If anything, he should get more blame for Vanguard (because he was "in charge") than credit for EQ, where he had a smaller role (there were others that largely contributed to the success of that game).
When your name is on the big door and things go well, you get the credit, and when they don't (and your company/product goes under) you get the blame.
So, in the end, it comes down to reputation, when asking people for "free money".
And this guy's reputation, both for work and on the personal side, is none too good at this point.
I will be keeping my money in my pocket, and if, on some day in the far future, a good game is released, I'll buy.
Originally posted by evilastro You are confusing excuse with explanation.
No I am not, You see them as explanations and I see them as excuses to his failed product. It is all in how the reader interprets it and you cannot tell me how I interpret it. There is no right or wrong.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
I think its funny that a lot of people in this thread hang their hopes on McQuaid because he did a good job on UO, but then don't understand why other people don't, because he did a poor job on Vanguard.
If anything, he should get more blame for Vanguard (because he was "in charge") than credit for UO, where he had a smaller role (there were others that largely contributed to the success of that game, Raph Koster for one).
When your name is on the big door and things go well, you get the credit, and when they don't (and your company/product goes under) you get the blame.
So, in the end, it comes down to reputation, when asking people for "free money".
And this guy's reputation, both for work and on the personal side, is none too good at this point.
I will be keeping my money in my pocket, and if, on some day in the far future, a good game is released, I'll buy.
Until then, no chance.
Sorry bud, I'm not one for correcting people but McQuaid worked on EQ not UO. Richard Garriott was responsible for UO.
Edit: Garriott was responsible for Tabula Rasa and he never received as much shit Brad has received when he released his kickstarter. https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/
I think its funny that a lot of people in this thread hang their hopes on McQuaid because he did a good job on UO, but then don't understand why other people don't, because he did a poor job on Vanguard.
If anything, he should get more blame for Vanguard (because he was "in charge") than credit for UO, where he had a smaller role (there were others that largely contributed to the success of that game, Raph Koster for one).
When your name is on the big door and things go well, you get the credit, and when they don't (and your company/product goes under) you get the blame.
So, in the end, it comes down to reputation, when asking people for "free money".
And this guy's reputation, both for work and on the personal side, is none too good at this point.
I will be keeping my money in my pocket, and if, on some day in the far future, a good game is released, I'll buy.
Until then, no chance.
Sorry bud, I'm not one for correcting people but McQuaid worked on EQ not UO. Richard Garriott was responsible for UO.
Edit: Garriott was responsible for Tabula Rasa and he never received as much shit Brad has received when he released his kickstarter. https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/
That is so, was thinking in another direction.
My mistake.
But the sentiment is the same...
As a side note, one could argue that the only people that ended up getting screwed in the whole TR mess were the Koreans that were paying Garriott, TR as a game, worked.
But with McQuaid and VG, the game was neither complete, nor very functional at launch and even years after he sold it to SOE, it was an un-optimized mess. Plus he tanked his company in the process. None f that bodes well for him asking for free money today, for a game to be delivered years from now.
He kind of left out the part that when MS pulled out they had almost nothing done on the game.
Haha, source? Because no one has ever said this before.
The things Brad stated are pretty well known facts to those that don't subscribe to the "he was high the whole time" rumor spread by some upset fansite owner from a "reliable source".
SoE did push the game out 6 months early (though before I'm sure it was 8 months early), and right at the same time as Burning Crusade. Soooo. And even still Vanguard is probably one of the best AAA MMOs of the last 8 years.
The amount of bullshit in this thread is staggering. I'm sick of the trolls.
Guess what haters. A lot of us were in Vanguard's Alpha/Beta. We were there at the launch. We read every interview, read every rumour, saw all the meme photos.
You're not providing any new information. You're digging up the past trying to make it look like you know some inside scoop. But you don't do you? You don't know any more shit than anyone else, but because your own life is lacking you go into a forum for a game you don't care about and you try to fill up that shitty little hole you feel inside of you with some dead horse drama.
We liked EverQuest. We liked Vanguard. We like the crazy high fantasy worlds full of hardships and camaraderie that come out of Brad's head. We want to show big publishers that there is a demand for this type of game, and we're taking OUR money and investing in something WE want.
If you're not feeling it, then that's fine because we're happy to leave you back in your shitty WoW Barrens chat while the rest of us enjoy our epic adventures.
You would of thought the guy molested a busload of school children while pissing on the graves of ghandi, mother theresa, and babe ruth, all while wearing a justin bieber concert t shirt and fellating the ceo of EA with the amount of hate he gets.
He did worse; released a bad game. A sin for which this site never forgives.
Not even. He released probably the best MMORPG in the last 8 years, he just released it on a buggy and bad engine, 6 months earlier than he wanted to.
Some more interesting reading concerning the trainwreck of Brad's.
He might make a good game this time around, but I'd be damned if I would give him one red cent to do it.
Ah more, "I have it from reliable sources" bs that wasn't substantiated or repeated anywhere else on the internet. No quests a year before release? Ask the alpha and beta people.
Some more interesting reading concerning the trainwreck of Brad's.
He might make a good game this time around, but I'd be damned if I would give him one red cent to do it.
You are taking this article as fact when it's nothing more than wild rumors and speculation. I mean the person is actually writing things like, "The story had always been that Sony had tried to teach Smed a lesson about working with his loser friends by actually hiring some of them to do Everquest." and you actually feel this article has any credibility with ridiculous statements like that?
"Brad McQuaid didn’t do shit. (News Flash?) He’s had an opiate addiction for years now, which only got progressively worse as the project failed. His cumulative face time with sigil designers in the most crucial final years of development? Approx: 15 minutes. And some of the time was spent begging for legitimately acquired narcotics (Or in times of desperation, jacking them from people’s desk)."
Brad is this true? This type of thing in not usually said, with out some truth. Addiction is a nasty thing. It makes great people do awful things. If this has not been addressed before, maybe it should be.
Let's be honest you haven't given people much to go on with this new project. From the outside looking in, It's nothing more than an idea in your head. After reading this, this skeptic has become even more skeptical.
It's none of our business what went on with his personal life. Unless you're going to hold all developers to the same standard that they must disclose every personal detail.
I might be remembering incorrectly, but I thought Brad said on his blog (when he wrote lots about what happened with Vanguard) that Microsoft ditched Vanguard after the people changed and that he didn't have anything down in writing with them, so there wasn't much he could do about it. He admitted to being naive about not having properly documented his agreements with his publisher.
I also recall reading that he didn't "turn to SOE" as he puts it, but rather ran around trying to find funding from various sources (like venture capital houses) and eventually Smedley helped him out after he couldn't find anyone to fund the game.
Again, my memory might be somewhat hazy, but I think that's what he wrote. A little inconsistent with the response he gave.
Originally posted by UOlover It's none of our business what went on with his personal life. Unless you're going to hold all developers to the same standard that they must disclose every personal detail.
Yeah? Other developers didn't crash their company and fire everyone on the back of their last failed product development.
Whether or not drug use was a reason for this IS a fair question to ask, because of the KickStarter. Why? It goes to why his last company failed and reputation.
Other developers are not asking for free money, based on reputation alone. And if they are, their reputation, public and private comes into to it too.
If you want the free money, you get the scrutiny that comes with that.
That is true if you are looking for financing via public, private, or crowd-funding means. (And I have been at MANY financing meetings for non-gaming projects, those questions always get asked.)
McQuaid is not selling a game, he is selling the promise of a game, and the development of his last one was very, very lacking at best.
I heard from people working on the game when it was being developed that McQuaid had ...lets call it a "habit" ...and was rarely around to provide any direction.
I would think if you have an issue with his past you probably aren't going to be considering giving him money now. Giving your opinion why is understandable. People should know if they don't already.
Demanding answers for what he's done isn't trying to save anyone from anything. There is no right answer he could give. If he tells the "truth" and it isn't what people want to hear they'll just say it's a lie. All this is now is smelling blood in the water and not having enough self control to not join the feeding frenzy.
You either accept his past and support him now or don't.
I really want Pantheon to be awesome, but I also don't like to burn money.
So, went looking for real information about the Vanguard problems (hoping to find old Brad posts).
What I did find was a couple links to forum posts from a developer on the Vanguard team (Nino). He was posting his thoughts on Vanguard and the team after the sell back to SOE.
Unfortunately, it looks like the site that was hosting the forums is now owned by Brad or something because it links to the Pantheon KS now. (it was the FOH guild forums)
It seems strange to me that someone would go through so much trouble to hide old form posts. I assume this was done recently because the KS project just started.
Brad doesnt own the FoH website. The site was active up until about a year ago when there was a huge blowout with the people who were running it and the site ended up being taken down. Most of the people who posted there went on to create a new site, rerolled.org. As a matter of fact, I think Brad may be posting in the Pantheon thread on the rerolled forums.
I'm not sure who owns the domain now, but if you go to fohguild.org it redirects to the Pantheon KS. This is all I was trying to say in my post.
I actually enjoyed what little of Vanguard I played. But I was playing WOW when it released and only tried it after the 2nd big push when they added the new starter zone.
I'm likely much less jaded on Vanguard because I played after most of the launch issues were addressed. Even so, my top of the line gaming rig did struggle.
However, the world in Vanguard was massive and fun to explore. I remember getting a server first rare mob kill with a friend and the entire game froze for like 5 seconds.. I thought the game crashed, but it was actually taking a screenshot and uploading it to my online profile where there were screen shots of my char with my buddy I was playing with. I didn't even know I had an online profile till then, got to looking through my profile, and it had screen shots of me throughout my leveling experience at different milestones. It was pretty awesome to see the crappy gear I was wearing at low levels.
I say all that to say this.
TLDR;
I think tons of stuff in Vanguard was awesome, and I would love to play a fully realized updated MMO with the soul of Vanguard. I'm just not sure this is possible with the budget Pantheon currently has.
If Brad thinks he's the only developer who's had to deal with publisher disputes and politics, then I have even less confidence in his next game than before.
My favorite Vanguard moment was actually due to it's unfinished state. Played on the "Faction PvP server" and it was obviously just thrown together.
Anyhow, a group of us head into one of their main cities, killing along the way. Once we get inside, we head for the building that the "Chief" was in. At this point we realized that we share chat with them so we start to give fake directions to where we are and/or undter state our numbers (2 of them at the Chief!!! Instead of 6....)
Anyhow... much death was caused that day and we all lived to ride away. Truly one of my favorite online moments, but clearly due to poor development. We played for a bit but eventually moved on. The game had a LOT of good points and concepts... it just wasn't finished.
So that is really my main question about this game. To succeed I think Brad has to be the "Game Guy" and someone else has to be the "Business Guy". I think the way the Kickstart is put together is a good example of this.
This is spot on. Many businesses are run by one individual who excels in one area but struggles (or in many cases, there just aren't enough hours in the day to do it all) in another area of the company business. In my experience, it's best (and "easiest") to have a business partner who is willing and qualified to run one side of a company, such as HR, Payroll, admin, etc. while the other would deal with clients, investors as well as being the one "in the field". As I'm interested in Pantheon succeeding and becoming the game that has been outlined, I hope Brad's company has a structure such as this in place.
I often find myself wondering if there is a need for more business oriented professionals in the gaming industry. I'm not referring to EA as they have too many business folks over there
Comments
i saw a lengthy reply here (from April 2007)
http://www.curse.com/legacy/reviews/vanguard-saga-of-heroes/15190-brad-mcquaid-aradune-talks-out-about-vanguard-on
EQ2 fan sites
I counted three excuses... keep reading till you see them.
And to think I actually compared WAR's launch to Vanguard's; yikes, short of the murder trope, Telemundo would have a field day with this.
I think its funny that a lot of people in this thread hang their hopes on McQuaid because he did a good job on EQ, but then don't understand why other people don't, because he did a poor job on Vanguard.
If anything, he should get more blame for Vanguard (because he was "in charge") than credit for EQ, where he had a smaller role (there were others that largely contributed to the success of that game).
When your name is on the big door and things go well, you get the credit, and when they don't (and your company/product goes under) you get the blame.
So, in the end, it comes down to reputation, when asking people for "free money".
And this guy's reputation, both for work and on the personal side, is none too good at this point.
I will be keeping my money in my pocket, and if, on some day in the far future, a good game is released, I'll buy.
Until then, no chance.
No I am not, You see them as explanations and I see them as excuses to his failed product. It is all in how the reader interprets it and you cannot tell me how I interpret it. There is no right or wrong.
Sorry bud, I'm not one for correcting people but McQuaid worked on EQ not UO. Richard Garriott was responsible for UO.
Edit: Garriott was responsible for Tabula Rasa and he never received as much shit Brad has received when he released his kickstarter. https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/
That is so, was thinking in another direction.
My mistake.
But the sentiment is the same...
As a side note, one could argue that the only people that ended up getting screwed in the whole TR mess were the Koreans that were paying Garriott, TR as a game, worked.
But with McQuaid and VG, the game was neither complete, nor very functional at launch and even years after he sold it to SOE, it was an un-optimized mess. Plus he tanked his company in the process. None f that bodes well for him asking for free money today, for a game to be delivered years from now.
Haha, source? Because no one has ever said this before.
The things Brad stated are pretty well known facts to those that don't subscribe to the "he was high the whole time" rumor spread by some upset fansite owner from a "reliable source".
SoE did push the game out 6 months early (though before I'm sure it was 8 months early), and right at the same time as Burning Crusade. Soooo. And even still Vanguard is probably one of the best AAA MMOs of the last 8 years.
The amount of bullshit in this thread is staggering. I'm sick of the trolls.
Guess what haters. A lot of us were in Vanguard's Alpha/Beta. We were there at the launch. We read every interview, read every rumour, saw all the meme photos.
You're not providing any new information. You're digging up the past trying to make it look like you know some inside scoop. But you don't do you? You don't know any more shit than anyone else, but because your own life is lacking you go into a forum for a game you don't care about and you try to fill up that shitty little hole you feel inside of you with some dead horse drama.
We liked EverQuest. We liked Vanguard. We like the crazy high fantasy worlds full of hardships and camaraderie that come out of Brad's head. We want to show big publishers that there is a demand for this type of game, and we're taking OUR money and investing in something WE want.
If you're not feeling it, then that's fine because we're happy to leave you back in your shitty WoW Barrens chat while the rest of us enjoy our epic adventures.
Not even. He released probably the best MMORPG in the last 8 years, he just released it on a buggy and bad engine, 6 months earlier than he wanted to.
http://www.thegrouchygamer.com/?p=80
Some more interesting reading concerning the trainwreck of Brad's.
He might make a good game this time around, but I'd be damned if I would give him one red cent to do it.
Ah more, "I have it from reliable sources" bs that wasn't substantiated or repeated anywhere else on the internet. No quests a year before release? Ask the alpha and beta people.
You are taking this article as fact when it's nothing more than wild rumors and speculation. I mean the person is actually writing things like, "The story had always been that Sony had tried to teach Smed a lesson about working with his loser friends by actually hiring some of them to do Everquest." and you actually feel this article has any credibility with ridiculous statements like that?
"Brad McQuaid didn’t do shit. (News Flash?) He’s had an opiate addiction for years now, which only got progressively worse as the project failed. His cumulative face time with sigil designers in the most crucial final years of development? Approx: 15 minutes. And some of the time was spent begging for legitimately acquired narcotics (Or in times of desperation, jacking them from people’s desk)."
Brad is this true? This type of thing in not usually said, with out some truth. Addiction is a nasty thing. It makes great people do awful things. If this has not been addressed before, maybe it should be.
Let's be honest you haven't given people much to go on with this new project. From the outside looking in, It's nothing more than an idea in your head. After reading this, this skeptic has become even more skeptical.
I might be remembering incorrectly, but I thought Brad said on his blog (when he wrote lots about what happened with Vanguard) that Microsoft ditched Vanguard after the people changed and that he didn't have anything down in writing with them, so there wasn't much he could do about it. He admitted to being naive about not having properly documented his agreements with his publisher.
I also recall reading that he didn't "turn to SOE" as he puts it, but rather ran around trying to find funding from various sources (like venture capital houses) and eventually Smedley helped him out after he couldn't find anyone to fund the game.
Again, my memory might be somewhat hazy, but I think that's what he wrote. A little inconsistent with the response he gave.
Yeah? Other developers didn't crash their company and fire everyone on the back of their last failed product development.
Whether or not drug use was a reason for this IS a fair question to ask, because of the KickStarter. Why? It goes to why his last company failed and reputation.
Other developers are not asking for free money, based on reputation alone. And if they are, their reputation, public and private comes into to it too.
If you want the free money, you get the scrutiny that comes with that.
That is true if you are looking for financing via public, private, or crowd-funding means. (And I have been at MANY financing meetings for non-gaming projects, those questions always get asked.)
McQuaid is not selling a game, he is selling the promise of a game, and the development of his last one was very, very lacking at best.
I would think if you have an issue with his past you probably aren't going to be considering giving him money now. Giving your opinion why is understandable. People should know if they don't already.
Demanding answers for what he's done isn't trying to save anyone from anything. There is no right answer he could give. If he tells the "truth" and it isn't what people want to hear they'll just say it's a lie. All this is now is smelling blood in the water and not having enough self control to not join the feeding frenzy.
You either accept his past and support him now or don't.
I'm not sure who owns the domain now, but if you go to fohguild.org it redirects to the Pantheon KS. This is all I was trying to say in my post.
I actually enjoyed what little of Vanguard I played. But I was playing WOW when it released and only tried it after the 2nd big push when they added the new starter zone.
I'm likely much less jaded on Vanguard because I played after most of the launch issues were addressed. Even so, my top of the line gaming rig did struggle.
However, the world in Vanguard was massive and fun to explore. I remember getting a server first rare mob kill with a friend and the entire game froze for like 5 seconds.. I thought the game crashed, but it was actually taking a screenshot and uploading it to my online profile where there were screen shots of my char with my buddy I was playing with. I didn't even know I had an online profile till then, got to looking through my profile, and it had screen shots of me throughout my leveling experience at different milestones. It was pretty awesome to see the crappy gear I was wearing at low levels.
I say all that to say this.
TLDR;
I think tons of stuff in Vanguard was awesome, and I would love to play a fully realized updated MMO with the soul of Vanguard. I'm just not sure this is possible with the budget Pantheon currently has.
"Read Less, More TV." - Dr. House
You make me like charity
This is spot on. Many businesses are run by one individual who excels in one area but struggles (or in many cases, there just aren't enough hours in the day to do it all) in another area of the company business. In my experience, it's best (and "easiest") to have a business partner who is willing and qualified to run one side of a company, such as HR, Payroll, admin, etc. while the other would deal with clients, investors as well as being the one "in the field". As I'm interested in Pantheon succeeding and becoming the game that has been outlined, I hope Brad's company has a structure such as this in place.
I often find myself wondering if there is a need for more business oriented professionals in the gaming industry. I'm not referring to EA as they have too many business folks over there