Originally posted by arieste Plus, there is a certain sense of pride in knowing that you (as a crafter) made the top guild's Tank's armor or someting like that.
Never seen anyone being "proud" to reach level cap in MMO...because that is precisely what "top quality" crafter is.
Everything else is just raiding, same as if whole items were dropped.
Originally posted by SpottyGekko I'm fervently hoping that the reduction in % is only there to increase the amount of tempers needed, not to reduce the overall success chance.Looks like:Green 20%Blue 15%Purple 10%Gold (Legendary) 5% That either means you'll need 20 gold tempers to upgrade to Legendary (ouch !)ORif there's a hard cap on the amount of tempers, a built-in failure chance (double ouch !)
That is what I was wondering about. Either way it is awful mechanics.
Originally posted by arieste But picking 10000000000000000000 flowers is not a challenge of skill, only of patience. ...As i've said before - give me 20 crafters working together for a few hours, failing over and over
Do you seriously not see that those two are one and the same?
Originally posted by Eighteen16 Crafting making best gear is fine as long as it requires materials from the top end PVE group content. Grinding should not be an alternative to progression.
You speak as though farming PvE group content (top-end or otherwise) for loot drops is somehow not a form of grinding in itself.
There should always be alternatives. That, more than anything, is what takes the sensation of grinding out of the process. (Unless the grind itself is what you're trying to maintain?)
I always have max level crafters, so for me it'll definitely be a good thing.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
I don't know but am asking,could this not be misleading?
Example ,Do you need to fight the elite Bosses to get items to craft?If so then really there is no difference attaining a drop in any form from said boss is still fighting to attain that gear.Players doing the fighting will simply shout for that lowly crafter who did all the work to make him that item and keep for himself.
A true form of crafting would mean you can simply farm a node and craft from that.Example Iron Ore,Rosewood,gold ,chain mail and form the best body armor the game can make.
As a crafter (in TESO) if that player shouts for me to make them that item, I will. If they provide ALL of the materials I will push the button. If they provide only the boss loot drop material then I will charge them for all materials I had to use from my personal stock.
Unless they are guildmates, then they only have to provide the boss loot drop.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I don't know but am asking,could this not be misleading?
Example ,Do you need to fight the elite Bosses to get items to craft?If so then really there is no difference attaining a drop in any form from said boss is still fighting to attain that gear.Players doing the fighting will simply shout for that lowly crafter who did all the work to make him that item and keep for himself.
A true form of crafting would mean you can simply farm a node and craft from that.Example Iron Ore,Rosewood,gold ,chain mail and form the best body armor the game can make.
There is a minor difference: crafting mats are more flexible than item-drops - you can use them to make what you want, instead of relying on the RNG to drop something you care about. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing... depends on how much you like slot machines.
I still don't like it though. It's literally a concession to the notion that "endgame = raiding," and I'd rather have "endgame = many different things." (Or the "endgame is a moot concept" approach of games like Eve, but that ship sailed long ago.)
Also, I'm still not sure how relevant gear-crafting is going to be over the long haul. Sure, you can make top-tier gear - but without an entropy system to take that gear out of the system, you'll either need the 'obsolescence treadmill" (with corresponding power-creep) in it's place or it'll reach a saturation point and be mostly irrelevant.
If there was a pure crafting profession like SWG had then yes I'm all for it. But since there is no pure crafting professions, then no, I don't like it. If everyone can make it then what's the point? Everyone will be running around with the exact same armor on.
Yea becouse everyone got the patience to hammer away for hours to raise their skill as everyone have the patience to raid and pvp
What i dont like and have been said before there should be a degrade system since at max level and best in slot items what more do that specific person need nothing really and as more and more get to that point crafters lose their purpose.
Originally posted by Lokberg Originally posted by laokokoI think that translate to good luck grinding crafting material.Reminds me of another game where crafters makes the best gear.
yea so hard to open the mail 1 or 2 times a day ^_^
if you have the hireling 1 point or maxed
thats the least you have to do
High end mats and tempers only drop from bosses, making it essentially a loot based economy.
Originally posted by laokokoI think that translate to good luck grinding crafting material.Reminds me of another game where crafters makes the best gear.
yea so hard to open the mail 1 or 2 times a day ^_^
if you have the hireling 1 point or maxed
thats the least you have to do
High end mats and tempers only drop from bosses, making it essentially a loot based economy.
I thought the bags the hirelings send you was depending on level since a level 17 got steel ore or ingots in his so,
shouldent that mean a max level char would have a chance to get max grade mats and tempers?
I welcome this. It kinda feels like DAoC. Of course you can get nice drops, but in the end you will need a crafter to complete your gear and it will be good gear.
Originally posted by laokokoI think that translate to good luck grinding crafting material.Reminds me of another game where crafters makes the best gear.
yea so hard to open the mail 1 or 2 times a day ^_^
if you have the hireling 1 point or maxed
thats the least you have to do
High end mats and tempers only drop from bosses, making it essentially a loot based economy.
I thought the bags the hirelings send you was depending on level since a level 17 got steel ore or ingots in his so,
shouldent that mean a max level char would have a chance to get max grade mats and tempers?
you get your basic materials from hirelings (and maybe some green additives) but the materials for high end enchantments (runes) and enhancements can only drop from bosses. i know 'cause i've tested this part. don't think "drop" as in you loot the materials from the boss but "drop" as in you loot the gear, disassemble it and pray for the materials you need to improve the gear quality. as far as i know, this is one of the most complex (and addicting) crafting system out there. maybe maxed out hireling will get you those rare crafting pieces when you're maxed but from what i've read, there's a very small chance for that happening.
I liked the crafting a lot. There were things about it also that make me wonder if crafting classes will not end up being classes all unto theirselves. The point distribution for instance. Will a person who wants to be at the top of their pvp game be able to afford to spend the kind of points that its going to take to be at the top of your crafting game?
I really hope not. It would make the replayability so much better.
Originally posted by laokokoI think that translate to good luck grinding crafting material.Reminds me of another game where crafters makes the best gear.
yea so hard to open the mail 1 or 2 times a day ^_^
if you have the hireling 1 point or maxed
thats the least you have to do
High end mats and tempers only drop from bosses, making it essentially a loot based economy.
I thought the bags the hirelings send you was depending on level since a level 17 got steel ore or ingots in his so,
shouldent that mean a max level char would have a chance to get max grade mats and tempers?
you get your basic materials from hirelings (and maybe some green additives) but the materials for high end enchantments (runes) and enhancements can only drop from bosses. i know 'cause i've tested this part. don't think "drop" as in you loot the materials from the boss but "drop" as in you loot the gear, disassemble it and pray for the materials you need to improve the gear quality. as far as i know, this is one of the most complex (and addicting) crafting system out there. maybe maxed out hireling will get you those rare crafting pieces when you're maxed but from what i've read, there's a very small chance for that happening.
After spending 3 SP, the Hireling is maxed and can be used twice a day.
BUT, if our speculation earlier in this thread is correct, then it could take up to 20 golden tempers to get a 100% success on upgrading a purple (epic) item to Legendary.
I doubt the hireling is going to bring you a golden temper every time you send him out. Even if he does it every second mission, that still means 20 days before you have enough golden tempers for ONE conversion to Legendary.
Would you take a chance on converting an epic item to Legendary if there's a 20% chance of failure and loss of that epic ? I wouldn't
So, as in almost every MMO ever built, high-end rewards will be tied purely to the RNG. Whether your warrior kills that boss mob 1000 times to get the Legendary Sword of Doom, or your crafter reprocesses 500 epic weapons to finally get enough golden tempers to craft that Legendary Sword of Doom, there will be a large amount of grinding involved somewhere in the process.
The nice thing (?) about ESO is that it gives crafters the ability to earn Legendary items by performing their own form of grinding. Usually that opportunity is reserved exclusively for adventurers.
It has to be this way. There are no raids in ESO right? What else would your end-game PVE purpose be without having crafting to craft your best gear. This is a brilliant design IMO. This will encourage exploration to find all the mats you need to craft as opposed to every other MMO where you run the same dungeons again and again and again ect ect......
Could be something special here if the devs do it right and stick to their guns
you get your basic materials from hirelings (and maybe some green additives) but the materials for high end enchantments (runes) and enhancements can only drop from bosses. i know 'cause i've tested this part. don't think "drop" as in you loot the materials from the boss but "drop" as in you loot the gear, disassemble it and pray for the materials you need to improve the gear quality. as far as i know, this is one of the most complex (and addicting) crafting system out there. maybe maxed out hireling will get you those rare crafting pieces when you're maxed but from what i've read, there's a very small chance for that happening.
One thing I wanted to correct you on was the highlighted comment. I only had one point in my Hireling for clothing the the first e-mail I received Embroidery--the blue temper to improve clothing items--so it's not just "maybe some green additives."
As to the epic and legendary items, I would fully expect those to be a bit tougher to get and probably not from your hireling...but at this point, until the game progresses further at retail, nobody knows...
Originally posted by SpottyGekko BUT, if our speculation earlier in this thread is correct, then it could take up to 20 golden tempers to get a 100% success on upgrading a purple (epic) item to Legendary.
And I still doubt that, I bet there will be a cap on tempers :-P
It is merely asking for fail chance with all the RNG mechanics plaguing crafting
Afterall, ESO crafting isn't really different from other themeparks and they pretty much all have fail/loss chance silly grind.
I personally welcome this. Crafters have been neglected for many years in games, unable to make the best gear in game, and when they could it was no trade or bind on crafting. I also think crafting has been one of the greatest secondary reason players leave a game.
Finding many stations around the world, then having to craft them with mats, and upgrading them with upgrade items which no doubt will be extremely rare to obtain, topped with being the best gear in the game I think will make crafting feel a lot worth doing and be an enjoyable past time for those who play countless hours in games.
What do you think? is it a good thing, bad thing, and why?
Well this is a game changer for me. I was still wondering whether to buy or not, I did enjoy the crafting system most of all, but this makes it a sure thing for me. Every mmo should have player crafted items, and an economy built around them, at their core in my opinion. Great news.
I don't think it will matter that everyone can make everything. In every game where crafting is limited to one area I usually have different characters as different professions any way, so it still isn't limiting.
Originally posted by oldboygamer Well this is a game changer for me. I was still wondering whether to buy or not, I did enjoy the crafting system most of all, but this makes it a sure thing for me. Every mmo should have player crafted items, and an economy built around them, at their core in my opinion. Great news.
Then ESO is not game for you.
Only game revolving around player crafted item economy is EVE Online. All the rest is just loot based.
Originally posted by Knotwood Originally posted by FoomerangI also feel that people who enjoy raiding and other activities besides crafting should not have to craft in order to get the best gear (or buy the best gear from crafters). I think some people get caught up in the whole "I dont want to have to raid for the best gear", without thinking about the fact that the opposite is also true.
For many years, solo crafters had to depend on Raiders and Guilds as their only means to craft best gear and had to pay high prices for raid crafting drops which were the same price of selling the fully crafted piece of gear, having no profit from it, making crafting completely worhless to a solo player who crafts.
Most raiders have guilds which have many crafters who do that work for the raider for free. If you look at past games like EQ2, the price of a crafting item drop is the same price as the gear itself when sold by a crafter, this system is set up all leaning in the Raiders ONLY favor. Its only fair that Solo Crafters be allowed to invest their time and work into end game gear as if they were raiding and playing like your playstyle. Shouldn't they be rewarded for the same amount of time and hard work you have into the game?
Different game systems. Different rewards. I'm not saying the old way was good, but I'm also not saying we should swing to the polar opposite for "payback" so to speak. I think each system has its own set of relevant rewards in place right now. Raiding should reward the best gear in the game (which in my previous post I also stated that even that gear is still not the best until a crafter augments it). Crafting literally dominates every other aspect of an mmo besides top tier gear. Yet people still complain because they cant do that too. Its kind of obnoxious.
Like I said, I've been playing mmos for a couple decades now, and always as a crafter gatherer first before combat. I make 99% of everything in the game except for raid gear which still needs my help to make it truly the best. I think it is selfish for people to complain about that 1%. If you are playing a game where top end gear is the only thing that matters, then that is a problem with the game as a whole, not the ability to craft said top end gear. MMOs that diversify their game systems and allow many outlets for crafting to be viable are doing it right.
If you could craft best in slot gear in WoW, it still wouldnt change the fact that crafting in WoW is incredibly dull. All that would change is that people would feel like they had to do stuff they did not enjoy in order to have the best gear. That is poor game design.
Comments
Of course it's a good thing.
In most mmorpg in the last few years, crafted gears are just prerequisite for endgame dungeons/raids.
Never seen anyone being "proud" to reach level cap in MMO...because that is precisely what "top quality" crafter is.
Everything else is just raiding, same as if whole items were dropped.
That is what I was wondering about. Either way it is awful mechanics.
Do you seriously not see that those two are one and the same?
You speak as though farming PvE group content (top-end or otherwise) for loot drops is somehow not a form of grinding in itself.
There should always be alternatives. That, more than anything, is what takes the sensation of grinding out of the process. (Unless the grind itself is what you're trying to maintain?)My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
As a crafter (in TESO) if that player shouts for me to make them that item, I will. If they provide ALL of the materials I will push the button. If they provide only the boss loot drop material then I will charge them for all materials I had to use from my personal stock.
Unless they are guildmates, then they only have to provide the boss loot drop.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
There is a minor difference: crafting mats are more flexible than item-drops - you can use them to make what you want, instead of relying on the RNG to drop something you care about. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing... depends on how much you like slot machines.
I still don't like it though. It's literally a concession to the notion that "endgame = raiding," and I'd rather have "endgame = many different things." (Or the "endgame is a moot concept" approach of games like Eve, but that ship sailed long ago.)
Also, I'm still not sure how relevant gear-crafting is going to be over the long haul. Sure, you can make top-tier gear - but without an entropy system to take that gear out of the system, you'll either need the 'obsolescence treadmill" (with corresponding power-creep) in it's place or it'll reach a saturation point and be mostly irrelevant.
If there was a pure crafting profession like SWG had then yes I'm all for it. But since there is no pure crafting professions, then no, I don't like it. If everyone can make it then what's the point? Everyone will be running around with the exact same armor on.
Yea becouse everyone got the patience to hammer away for hours to raise their skill as everyone have the patience to raid and pvp
What i dont like and have been said before there should be a degrade system since at max level and best in slot items what more do that specific person need nothing really and as more and more get to that point crafters lose their purpose.
I think that translate to good luck grinding crafting material.
Reminds me of another game where crafters makes the best gear.
yea so hard to open the mail 1 or 2 times a day ^_^
if you have the hireling 1 point or maxed
thats the least you have to do
if you have the hireling 1 point or maxed
thats the least you have to do
High end mats and tempers only drop from bosses, making it essentially a loot based economy.
I thought the bags the hirelings send you was depending on level since a level 17 got steel ore or ingots in his so,
shouldent that mean a max level char would have a chance to get max grade mats and tempers?
you get your basic materials from hirelings (and maybe some green additives) but the materials for high end enchantments (runes) and enhancements can only drop from bosses. i know 'cause i've tested this part. don't think "drop" as in you loot the materials from the boss but "drop" as in you loot the gear, disassemble it and pray for the materials you need to improve the gear quality. as far as i know, this is one of the most complex (and addicting) crafting system out there. maybe maxed out hireling will get you those rare crafting pieces when you're maxed but from what i've read, there's a very small chance for that happening.
I liked the crafting a lot. There were things about it also that make me wonder if crafting classes will not end up being classes all unto theirselves. The point distribution for instance. Will a person who wants to be at the top of their pvp game be able to afford to spend the kind of points that its going to take to be at the top of your crafting game?
I really hope not. It would make the replayability so much better.
After spending 3 SP, the Hireling is maxed and can be used twice a day.
BUT, if our speculation earlier in this thread is correct, then it could take up to 20 golden tempers to get a 100% success on upgrading a purple (epic) item to Legendary.
I doubt the hireling is going to bring you a golden temper every time you send him out. Even if he does it every second mission, that still means 20 days before you have enough golden tempers for ONE conversion to Legendary.
Would you take a chance on converting an epic item to Legendary if there's a 20% chance of failure and loss of that epic ? I wouldn't
So, as in almost every MMO ever built, high-end rewards will be tied purely to the RNG. Whether your warrior kills that boss mob 1000 times to get the Legendary Sword of Doom, or your crafter reprocesses 500 epic weapons to finally get enough golden tempers to craft that Legendary Sword of Doom, there will be a large amount of grinding involved somewhere in the process.
The nice thing (?) about ESO is that it gives crafters the ability to earn Legendary items by performing their own form of grinding. Usually that opportunity is reserved exclusively for adventurers.
It has to be this way. There are no raids in ESO right? What else would your end-game PVE purpose be without having crafting to craft your best gear. This is a brilliant design IMO. This will encourage exploration to find all the mats you need to craft as opposed to every other MMO where you run the same dungeons again and again and again ect ect......
Could be something special here if the devs do it right and stick to their guns
Aloha Mr Hand !
One thing I wanted to correct you on was the highlighted comment. I only had one point in my Hireling for clothing the the first e-mail I received Embroidery--the blue temper to improve clothing items--so it's not just "maybe some green additives."
As to the epic and legendary items, I would fully expect those to be a bit tougher to get and probably not from your hireling...but at this point, until the game progresses further at retail, nobody knows...
And I still doubt that, I bet there will be a cap on tempers :-P
It is merely asking for fail chance with all the RNG mechanics plaguing crafting
Afterall, ESO crafting isn't really different from other themeparks and they pretty much all have fail/loss chance silly grind.
Well this is a game changer for me. I was still wondering whether to buy or not, I did enjoy the crafting system most of all, but this makes it a sure thing for me. Every mmo should have player crafted items, and an economy built around them, at their core in my opinion. Great news.
I don't think it will matter that everyone can make everything. In every game where crafting is limited to one area I usually have different characters as different professions any way, so it still isn't limiting.
Then ESO is not game for you.
Only game revolving around player crafted item economy is EVE Online. All the rest is just loot based.
Most raiders have guilds which have many crafters who do that work for the raider for free. If you look at past games like EQ2, the price of a crafting item drop is the same price as the gear itself when sold by a crafter, this system is set up all leaning in the Raiders ONLY favor. Its only fair that Solo Crafters be allowed to invest their time and work into end game gear as if they were raiding and playing like your playstyle. Shouldn't they be rewarded for the same amount of time and hard work you have into the game?
Different game systems. Different rewards. I'm not saying the old way was good, but I'm also not saying we should swing to the polar opposite for "payback" so to speak. I think each system has its own set of relevant rewards in place right now. Raiding should reward the best gear in the game (which in my previous post I also stated that even that gear is still not the best until a crafter augments it). Crafting literally dominates every other aspect of an mmo besides top tier gear. Yet people still complain because they cant do that too. Its kind of obnoxious.
Like I said, I've been playing mmos for a couple decades now, and always as a crafter gatherer first before combat. I make 99% of everything in the game except for raid gear which still needs my help to make it truly the best. I think it is selfish for people to complain about that 1%. If you are playing a game where top end gear is the only thing that matters, then that is a problem with the game as a whole, not the ability to craft said top end gear. MMOs that diversify their game systems and allow many outlets for crafting to be viable are doing it right.
If you could craft best in slot gear in WoW, it still wouldnt change the fact that crafting in WoW is incredibly dull. All that would change is that people would feel like they had to do stuff they did not enjoy in order to have the best gear. That is poor game design.