Tell me what part of all this system I propose below is unfair?
PLAYSTYLES that should all be able to use to progress in all the game systems listed to obtain crafting mats and best end game gear.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
PVP'r - Should be able to have long progression end game through PVP system.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
GAME SYSTEMS that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
PVP - Should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
Originally posted by Vorthanion I'm not a fan of any playstyle having priority on top end gear. I think there should be multiple ways to attain top gear, preferably through several of the most popular methods of progression, be it solo, group, raid, crafting, pvp, exploration....etc.
I don't believe in getting the same reward for doing something that's substantially easier than something else and fact is, the systems that exist in most games (including ESO) do not create equal difficulty challenges in all these playstyles. If they did - which would be extremely difficult for some of them - I'd be totally ok with the rewards being the same.
For example, a while ago EQ2 added some 2-player zones that were so difficult that the majority of the population didn't even want to attempt them. These gave some best-in-game rewards. I was perfectly ok with those yielding amazing rewards, but if same rewards were being provided by piss-easy duo content, i wouldn't have been happy.
It's just very difficult to design (for example) solo or crafting content that provides an equivalent challenge to (for example) capturing a keep in PvP or killing a dungeon boss in PvE. It's possible, it just doesn't usually happen.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Finally, a MMORPG and development team that gets it. Gamers have been asking for a crafting system where the actual gamer has the ability to create the best and coolest armor/weapons in the game. And yet, new games like GW2, SWToR, and the rest have just ignored their fans, time and time again.
I truly hope that not only does Zenimax continue to stay with this crafting system, I hope that they expand on it. I would like to see more and more secret, out of the way, crafting stations where crafters can create great armor. I hope they add some really cool unique crafting tables in their talked about PVP dungeon. Now that would be a nice place for some of the nicest gear crafting tables.
I also hope they do this for all of the different types of crafting.
Originally posted by McSire I doubt they will be able to make the only #1 best gear in game, It'll probably be tied with like top tier gear from Cyrodiil and Adventure zones (raids). But it seems ok I guess.
Crafters can make the gear you get in raids even better
Yeah through upgrade items, but what guildie wouldn't do that for you for free? Its as simple as a button press.
Tell me what part of all this system I propose below is unfair?
PLAYSTYLES that should all be able to use to progress in all the game systems listed to obtain crafting mats and best end game gear.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
PVP'r - Should be able to have long progression end game through PVP system.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
GAME SYSTEMS that should all be used in end game progression towards best end game gear.
PVP - Should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Game systems that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
I agree with all that you say. Too many games offer the best gear and weapons only to the "raiding" community. World of Warcraft is notorious for this. But they forget that many of their current and "former(me)" fans do not like to raid. I have suggested in pretty much every current and developing mmorpg, that there should be end game gear progression for every type of player. If I choose to play either solo or with a friend(s), I should have the opportunity to the same great gear that every other player has. I should not have to raid 5 nights a week for 5 hours a night to achieve this. Epic chain quests are a great alternative to raiding.
Tell me what part of all this system I propose below is unfair?
Playstyles should be able to always progress in every system of the game towards end game gear and mats.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
PVP'r - Should be able to have long progression end game through PVP system.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
PVP - Should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Game systems that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
This system encourages anti-social behavior. PVE raiding forces people to work together to get the best gear and creates a strong level of community. If this was optional the community just ends up being overrun with solo heroes. ESO could prove me wrong on that, but having played MMOs for a very long I am afraid I know the typical players too well.
Originally posted by McSire I doubt they will be able to make the only #1 best gear in game, It'll probably be tied with like top tier gear from Cyrodiil and Adventure zones (raids). But it seems ok I guess.
Crafters can make the gear you get in raids even better
Yeah through upgrade items, but what guildie wouldn't do that for you for free? Its as simple as a button press.
There will always be people I can charge, like those who are not in a guild or just have friends. Just like Final Fantasy 11 where people used to charge for a simple teleport. Guildies will not always be available. Or just like in Final Fantasy 14 ARR where crafters charge people to socket materia in armor.
Tell me what part of all this system I propose below is unfair?
Playstyles should be able to always progress in every system of the game towards end game gear and mats.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
Game systems that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
I don't believe that "doing something easy for a long time = doing something difficult quickly". I believe in there being different challenges in the game and those challenges needing to be bested.
In terms of playstyle, I believe that if you limit yourself to only one playstyle, you should be limited to gear appopriate to that playstyle. So that solo gameplay should provide you with all the gear or components for gear you need to defeat the toughest solo content and to start up in group play. Group content should then in turn provide you with all the equipment (or components for gear) you need to defeat the toughest group content and to start up in raid play. So on for raids. This type of progression system is self-balancing: for example, the tougher the solo content in the game, the better the rewards that soloing will provide.
PvP should provide the appropriate gear and components relevant for PvP play.
Questing should provide rewards according to the difficult of the question (solo/group/raid/pvp).
The whole "short and long" amount of grind is unnecessary. All players are able to do whatever they want (solo, quest, craft, etc.) in order to make money. Money can buy anything they want. The game's economy is the great equalizer. If you want to make a million gold soloing and buy the best crafted raid sword in the game, you have that option, but SOMEONE - adventurer, crafter, etc. - should still best the challenge involved in that sword entering the game. (And they can then put a price on their accomplishment)
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by McSire I doubt they will be able to make the only #1 best gear in game, It'll probably be tied with like top tier gear from Cyrodiil and Adventure zones (raids). But it seems ok I guess.
Crafters can make the gear you get in raids even better
Yeah through upgrade items, but what guildie wouldn't do that for you for free? Its as simple as a button press.
This is true IF that guildie has put in enough skill points into crafting.
Crafting is not for everybody...and although you see HUNDREDS of posts of people interested in crafting, the bottom line is who is going to invest the hours, days, and weeks of researching items, gathering materials for improvements, and leveling up their crafting enough for it to become profitable above the more "plain Jane" people who are leveling crafting, but not investing many skill points into it.
I've seen this in almost every game...people jump on the crafting bandwagon and within 1-2 months post-release, you can't find a crafter if your life depended upon it.
That being said, I've always taken crafting in every game to the fullest, so I'm not worried, but with skillpoints--at least initially--being a hot commodity to micro-manage, many people may invest their skill points into offensive/defensive/other skill than crafting. It's a fine line to not gimp your character and still make them viable to craft...
Tell me what part of all this system I propose below is unfair?
Playstyles should be able to always progress in every system of the game towards end game gear and mats.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
PVP'r - Should be able to have long progression end game through PVP system.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
PVP - Should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Game systems that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
This system encourages anti-social behavior. PVE raiding forces people to work together to get the best gear and creates a strong level of community. If this was optional the community just ends up being overrun with solo heroes. ESO could prove me wrong on that, but having played MMOs for a very long I am afraid I know the typical players too well.
If the progression is slower for Solo and Group play styles.... What solo player wouldn't group up when they had the chance to make their progression faster, or join a pick up raid when its instantly faster?
Why should they be FORCED into playstyles they do not enjoy just for the sake of some false paranoia that it will result in less RAIDING?
I disagree that this is an antisocial system, and think it will not stop players from raiding since the rewards in raiding are instant.
Tell me what part of all this system I propose below is unfair?
Playstyles should be able to always progress in every system of the game towards end game gear and mats.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
PVP'r - Should be able to have long progression end game through PVP system.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
PVP - Should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Game systems that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
This system encourages anti-social behavior. PVE raiding forces people to work together to get the best gear and creates a strong level of community. If this was optional the community just ends up being overrun with solo heroes. ESO could prove me wrong on that, but having played MMOs for a very long I am afraid I know the typical players too well.
To say that a bunch of solo players encourages anti-social behavior is very obtuse. I personally do not like raiding and dungeon crawling with a large group. To be honest, the few times I forced my self to raid in various mmorpg's, I had a terrible time. Between the bickering in group/raid chat and the elitist types constantly insulting peoples mistakes, I don't want to ever raid again.
I have much more fun playing solo or with my son and nephew, exploring, taking my time and just enjoying the world immersion. As a paying customer, I think that I should have the same opportunities to work my way to end game goodies too. And I believe that there can be more than one path to great gear. I am certainly not looking for the easy road. I have no problem putting many hours into the game. But I want to be rewarded for my efforts the same.
Well, on this poll it's nice to see how ppl here represent minority playing mmos. I'm pretty sure that unless it will be easy, most players will hate it.
This is only good if high end crafting seriously gimps you in terms of Pve or Pvp and will require special high end ingredients available in rare supply in the toughest private dungeons. Otherwise everyone will be master crafter and gear will have 0 value.
Originally posted by Malevil Well, on this poll it's nice to see how ppl here represent minority playing mmos. I'm pretty sure that unless it will be easy, most players will hate it.
Tell me what part of all this system I propose below is unfair?
Playstyles should be able to always progress in every system of the game towards end game gear and mats.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
PVP'r - Should be able to have long progression end game through PVP system.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
PVP - Should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Game systems that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
This system encourages anti-social behavior. PVE raiding forces people to work together to get the best gear and creates a strong level of community. If this was optional the community just ends up being overrun with solo heroes. ESO could prove me wrong on that, but having played MMOs for a very long I am afraid I know the typical players too well.
To say that a bunch of solo players encourages anti-social behavior is very obtuse. I personally do not like raiding and dungeon crawling with a large group. To be honest, the few times I forced my self to raid in various mmorpg's, I had a terrible time. Between the bickering in group/raid chat and the elitist types constantly insulting peoples mistakes, I don't want to ever raid again.
I have much more fun playing solo or with my son and nephew, exploring, taking my time and just enjoying the world immersion. As a paying customer, I think that I should have the same opportunities to work my way to end game goodies too. And I believe that there can be more than one path to great gear. I am certainly not looking for the easy road. I have no problem putting many hours into the game. But I want to be rewarded for my efforts the same.
It is a conflict of interests, you may not be avoiding raids to take an easy road, but that is what you end up taking. Something taking a longer time to get does not make it more difficult, the ultimate challenge of MMOs have always been about more than your own skill, but rather how well your organize and work with others. World of Warcraft despite all its faults has maintained a large and extremely loyal community while the only real end game has always been the raids. It is a consistent system that players keep coming back to when other MMOs they try end up failing apart.
Crafting/Solo content is simply grind/luck based with some skill at playing the market. The time you put into it might be much higher than raiding, but the effort is going to be much lower. I don't see why you feel being pushed into the raids to get the best gear. If you are not going to raid, why do you need the best gear to begin with?
Tell me what part of all this system I propose below is unfair?
Playstyles should be able to always progress in every system of the game towards end game gear and mats.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
PVP'r - Should be able to have long progression end game through PVP system.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
PVP - Should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Game systems that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
This system encourages anti-social behavior. PVE raiding forces people to work together to get the best gear and creates a strong level of community. If this was optional the community just ends up being overrun with solo heroes. ESO could prove me wrong on that, but having played MMOs for a very long I am afraid I know the typical players too well.
Being forced to raid doesn't encourage community of any kind.
I have played mmo's sinc ethe late 90's, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Everquest, WoW, SWG, so on and so fourth.
Do you know what game (imo) had the best in game community/social interaction between players? Ultima Online.
Ultima Online dd not even have QUESTS, let alone "Raids" or giant boss mobs that took 50 people to take down.
It instead was simply a sandbox world, you could play it however you wanted. Solo, group, guild, you could be a crafter, tame wild animals (even dragons if you got good), open pvp with both pkers (called reds) and anti-pkers (who hunted reds) and everything in between.
In UO there were constantly people interacting with each other, not because they were "forced" to, but because the games design encouraged it and embraced it.
You had communities of players that would throw parties at their house, in game tournaments that even GM's attended, you had crafters interacting with customers for custom orders or people just wander by your house and strike up a conversation when they see you.
Now and days you don't hardly ever get that, the closest one was SWG but after that, nothing.
Tell me what part of all this system I propose below is unfair?
Playstyles should be able to always progress in every system of the game towards end game gear and mats.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
PVP'r - Should be able to have long progression end game through PVP system.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
PVP - Should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Game systems that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
This system encourages anti-social behavior. PVE raiding forces people to work together to get the best gear and creates a strong level of community. If this was optional the community just ends up being overrun with solo heroes. ESO could prove me wrong on that, but having played MMOs for a very long I am afraid I know the typical players too well.
Being forced to raid doesn't encourage community of any kind.
I have played mmo's sinc ethe late 90's, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Everquest, WoW, SWG, so on and so fourth.
Do you know what game (imo) had the best in game community/social interaction between players? Ultima Online.
Ultima Online dd not even have QUESTS, let alone "Raids" or giant boss mobs that took 50 people to take down.
It instead was simply a sandbox world, you could play it however you wanted. Solo, group, guild, you could be a crafter, tame wild animals (even dragons if you got good), open pvp with both pkers (called reds) and anti-pkers (who hunted reds) and everything in between.
In UO there were constantly people interacting with each other, not because they were "forced" to, but because the games design encouraged it and embraced it.
You had communities of players that would throw parties at their house, in game tournaments that even GM's attended, you had crafters interacting with customers for custom orders or people just wander by your house and strike up a conversation when they see you.
Now and days you don't hardly ever get that, the closest one was SWG but after that, nothing.
You damn right about this!! The interaction was great!! I remember my miner had this deal with a gm blacksmith. I got him the rare ore or ingots actually, and in return I would sell to him at a very good price for him,plus he would always make me a gm smithed suit of my choice and color.
I still have to this day play in a game where player economy was determined by the skills in game and NOT by what was bought and sold using any type of cash shop.
Many newer player or younger players do not understand this type of interaction, I made tons of money and all with out an auction house. How?..Simple..you got noticed and remembered by people. It was a great source of pride when you could roam the country side and see a house with your name on a piece of furniture that you made!!!
Tell me what part of all this system I propose below is unfair?
Playstyles should be able to always progress in every system of the game towards end game gear and mats.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
PVP'r - Should be able to have long progression end game through PVP system.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
PVP - Should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Game systems that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
This system encourages anti-social behavior. PVE raiding forces people to work together to get the best gear and creates a strong level of community. If this was optional the community just ends up being overrun with solo heroes. ESO could prove me wrong on that, but having played MMOs for a very long I am afraid I know the typical players too well.
Being forced to raid doesn't encourage community of any kind.
I have played mmo's sinc ethe late 90's, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Everquest, WoW, SWG, so on and so fourth.
Do you know what game (imo) had the best in game community/social interaction between players? Ultima Online.
Ultima Online dd not even have QUESTS, let alone "Raids" or giant boss mobs that took 50 people to take down.
It instead was simply a sandbox world, you could play it however you wanted. Solo, group, guild, you could be a crafter, tame wild animals (even dragons if you got good), open pvp with both pkers (called reds) and anti-pkers (who hunted reds) and everything in between.
In UO there were constantly people interacting with each other, not because they were "forced" to, but because the games design encouraged it and embraced it.
You had communities of players that would throw parties at their house, in game tournaments that even GM's attended, you had crafters interacting with customers for custom orders or people just wander by your house and strike up a conversation when they see you.
Now and days you don't hardly ever get that, the closest one was SWG but after that, nothing.
MMOs have been changing to better suit the mainstream audience. Raiding certainly does create community, when it is not properly implemented a game will suffer the fate of GW2 where people are still wondering what purpose the guilds serve outside of PVP. ESO may have done a good job at revamping some boring aspects of theme park design, but it is still bound to have a linear end game progression. There are many people who dislike crafting as much as others dislike raiding, there are still many complaining in recent FFXIV that you need crafters to socket stats on your gear, even though that's about the only thing you need from crafters in end game.
I would certainly not mind if this game could properly implement multiple paths of progression, but I can safely assume that throwing something like UO at the present MMO community whos entire experience comes from theme parks would be a disaster. This game has a good start at having some things that their competitors don't, they can always change things over time and shouldn't take big risks with the development at release.
Comments
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
PLAYSTYLES that should all be able to use to progress in all the game systems listed to obtain crafting mats and best end game gear.
Solo Player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at an longer progression.
Dungeon player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a long progression rate.
PVP'r - Should be able to have long progression end game through PVP system.
Raid player - Should be able to progress in all end game systems to obtain best gear at a short progression rate.
GAME SYSTEMS that all should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
PVP - Should have a progress gain each time towards end game gear and mats.
Raiding - Should give instant drops towards end game gear. (whole gear and crafting mats)
Questing - should give long questline progression towards end game gear. (epics, ect.)
Dungeons - Should give long progression grain each time towards end game gear and mats. (random crafting mat drops or currency towards purchasable crafting mats)
Crafting - Should be able to make best end game gear with crafting mats, and upgrade best end game gear.
I don't believe in getting the same reward for doing something that's substantially easier than something else and fact is, the systems that exist in most games (including ESO) do not create equal difficulty challenges in all these playstyles. If they did - which would be extremely difficult for some of them - I'd be totally ok with the rewards being the same.
For example, a while ago EQ2 added some 2-player zones that were so difficult that the majority of the population didn't even want to attempt them. These gave some best-in-game rewards. I was perfectly ok with those yielding amazing rewards, but if same rewards were being provided by piss-easy duo content, i wouldn't have been happy.
It's just very difficult to design (for example) solo or crafting content that provides an equivalent challenge to (for example) capturing a keep in PvP or killing a dungeon boss in PvE. It's possible, it just doesn't usually happen.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
What do I think??
I think it is about time!!!!!!
Finally, a MMORPG and development team that gets it. Gamers have been asking for a crafting system where the actual gamer has the ability to create the best and coolest armor/weapons in the game. And yet, new games like GW2, SWToR, and the rest have just ignored their fans, time and time again.
I truly hope that not only does Zenimax continue to stay with this crafting system, I hope that they expand on it. I would like to see more and more secret, out of the way, crafting stations where crafters can create great armor. I hope they add some really cool unique crafting tables in their talked about PVP dungeon. Now that would be a nice place for some of the nicest gear crafting tables.
I also hope they do this for all of the different types of crafting.
Yeah through upgrade items, but what guildie wouldn't do that for you for free? Its as simple as a button press.
This system encourages anti-social behavior. PVE raiding forces people to work together to get the best gear and creates a strong level of community. If this was optional the community just ends up being overrun with solo heroes. ESO could prove me wrong on that, but having played MMOs for a very long I am afraid I know the typical players too well.
There will always be people I can charge, like those who are not in a guild or just have friends. Just like Final Fantasy 11 where people used to charge for a simple teleport. Guildies will not always be available. Or just like in Final Fantasy 14 ARR where crafters charge people to socket materia in armor.
I don't believe that "doing something easy for a long time = doing something difficult quickly". I believe in there being different challenges in the game and those challenges needing to be bested.
In terms of playstyle, I believe that if you limit yourself to only one playstyle, you should be limited to gear appopriate to that playstyle. So that solo gameplay should provide you with all the gear or components for gear you need to defeat the toughest solo content and to start up in group play. Group content should then in turn provide you with all the equipment (or components for gear) you need to defeat the toughest group content and to start up in raid play. So on for raids. This type of progression system is self-balancing: for example, the tougher the solo content in the game, the better the rewards that soloing will provide.
PvP should provide the appropriate gear and components relevant for PvP play.
Questing should provide rewards according to the difficult of the question (solo/group/raid/pvp).
The whole "short and long" amount of grind is unnecessary. All players are able to do whatever they want (solo, quest, craft, etc.) in order to make money. Money can buy anything they want. The game's economy is the great equalizer. If you want to make a million gold soloing and buy the best crafted raid sword in the game, you have that option, but SOMEONE - adventurer, crafter, etc. - should still best the challenge involved in that sword entering the game. (And they can then put a price on their accomplishment)
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This is true IF that guildie has put in enough skill points into crafting.
Crafting is not for everybody...and although you see HUNDREDS of posts of people interested in crafting, the bottom line is who is going to invest the hours, days, and weeks of researching items, gathering materials for improvements, and leveling up their crafting enough for it to become profitable above the more "plain Jane" people who are leveling crafting, but not investing many skill points into it.
I've seen this in almost every game...people jump on the crafting bandwagon and within 1-2 months post-release, you can't find a crafter if your life depended upon it.
That being said, I've always taken crafting in every game to the fullest, so I'm not worried, but with skillpoints--at least initially--being a hot commodity to micro-manage, many people may invest their skill points into offensive/defensive/other skill than crafting. It's a fine line to not gimp your character and still make them viable to craft...
If the progression is slower for Solo and Group play styles.... What solo player wouldn't group up when they had the chance to make their progression faster, or join a pick up raid when its instantly faster?
Why should they be FORCED into playstyles they do not enjoy just for the sake of some false paranoia that it will result in less RAIDING?
I disagree that this is an antisocial system, and think it will not stop players from raiding since the rewards in raiding are instant.
To say that a bunch of solo players encourages anti-social behavior is very obtuse. I personally do not like raiding and dungeon crawling with a large group. To be honest, the few times I forced my self to raid in various mmorpg's, I had a terrible time. Between the bickering in group/raid chat and the elitist types constantly insulting peoples mistakes, I don't want to ever raid again.
I have much more fun playing solo or with my son and nephew, exploring, taking my time and just enjoying the world immersion. As a paying customer, I think that I should have the same opportunities to work my way to end game goodies too. And I believe that there can be more than one path to great gear. I am certainly not looking for the easy road. I have no problem putting many hours into the game. But I want to be rewarded for my efforts the same.
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Crafting > Dungeons, economic pvp ftw!
edit- today's hallway dungeons.
People who don't like questing what about us!
Just get a guildy to do it.
Or, learn who the "good" crafters are and ask them. I'm sure they will charge you a fee but I feel that's ok.
Didn't you do this in SWG? I never crafted anything but shots and some mats in Lineage 2 and always had crafters craft my gear.
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It is a conflict of interests, you may not be avoiding raids to take an easy road, but that is what you end up taking. Something taking a longer time to get does not make it more difficult, the ultimate challenge of MMOs have always been about more than your own skill, but rather how well your organize and work with others. World of Warcraft despite all its faults has maintained a large and extremely loyal community while the only real end game has always been the raids. It is a consistent system that players keep coming back to when other MMOs they try end up failing apart.
Crafting/Solo content is simply grind/luck based with some skill at playing the market. The time you put into it might be much higher than raiding, but the effort is going to be much lower. I don't see why you feel being pushed into the raids to get the best gear. If you are not going to raid, why do you need the best gear to begin with?
Being forced to raid doesn't encourage community of any kind.
I have played mmo's sinc ethe late 90's, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Everquest, WoW, SWG, so on and so fourth.
Do you know what game (imo) had the best in game community/social interaction between players? Ultima Online.
Ultima Online dd not even have QUESTS, let alone "Raids" or giant boss mobs that took 50 people to take down.
It instead was simply a sandbox world, you could play it however you wanted. Solo, group, guild, you could be a crafter, tame wild animals (even dragons if you got good), open pvp with both pkers (called reds) and anti-pkers (who hunted reds) and everything in between.
In UO there were constantly people interacting with each other, not because they were "forced" to, but because the games design encouraged it and embraced it.
You had communities of players that would throw parties at their house, in game tournaments that even GM's attended, you had crafters interacting with customers for custom orders or people just wander by your house and strike up a conversation when they see you.
Now and days you don't hardly ever get that, the closest one was SWG but after that, nothing.
You damn right about this!! The interaction was great!! I remember my miner had this deal with a gm blacksmith. I got him the rare ore or ingots actually, and in return I would sell to him at a very good price for him,plus he would always make me a gm smithed suit of my choice and color.
I still have to this day play in a game where player economy was determined by the skills in game and NOT by what was bought and sold using any type of cash shop.
Many newer player or younger players do not understand this type of interaction, I made tons of money and all with out an auction house. How?..Simple..you got noticed and remembered by people. It was a great source of pride when you could roam the country side and see a house with your name on a piece of furniture that you made!!!
Get teary eyed just thinking about it!!
MMOs have been changing to better suit the mainstream audience. Raiding certainly does create community, when it is not properly implemented a game will suffer the fate of GW2 where people are still wondering what purpose the guilds serve outside of PVP. ESO may have done a good job at revamping some boring aspects of theme park design, but it is still bound to have a linear end game progression. There are many people who dislike crafting as much as others dislike raiding, there are still many complaining in recent FFXIV that you need crafters to socket stats on your gear, even though that's about the only thing you need from crafters in end game.
I would certainly not mind if this game could properly implement multiple paths of progression, but I can safely assume that throwing something like UO at the present MMO community whos entire experience comes from theme parks would be a disaster. This game has a good start at having some things that their competitors don't, they can always change things over time and shouldn't take big risks with the development at release.