Originally posted by StonesDK Why play a MMO that's going to reward me in three months time, when I can get rewarded in WoW by tomorrow if i start now? Figuratively speaking.
The reward versus the time invested is a tricky one. But the current instant gratification generation is really making all these games shallow. It's both the developers & the players fault. I do believe games should be rewarding and fun but through achieving something and not just logging into the game. Rewarding and fun are subjective of course, but a little challenge does not hurt.
-Kirrik
See it as a slider, where it starts with maximum time investment to get to the carrot. In the opposite end, minimum time investment to get to the carrot.
The more you move the slider towards the minimum time investment, the bigger the mass-appeal and vice versa. The maximum time investment, the more niche it becomes. The downside to this kind of thinking is, the less time people have to invest to get rewarded, the quicker they move on to something new.
Here's a crazy idea: NO CARROT.
We already have plenty of those. Minecraft, EQNext Landmark, MOBAs etc. People play traditional MMORPGS because of advancement, be it story, gear or levels. Take that away then you are stepping over to already existing genres people can play. Be it FPS, hack'n'slash rpgs, mobas, TBS etc. and even those have their own carrots.
I don't think this genre can exist without a reward system
The reward system may not be the whole reason the genre exists, but it's certainly a fundamental feature going back to RPGs. Back to pen and paper even. Why did you keep running through dungeons? To get more numbers, so that the numbers you had were high enough to get to the next dungeon because the next dungeon's numbers were higher than the numbers you have now. More numbers. That's why we've been playing these games for so long.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Vallista What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What was actually challenging about the old MMOs? Were they challenging just because it took a long time to level? Is that it? Oh, but they also required a full group to do anything.
Sounds like a "time spent = challenge" thread combined with a "group vs solo" rant.
Nothing new to see here.
I went back through the archives in the General MMORPG forum and found threads like this from 2006.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Vallista What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What was actually challenging about the old MMOs? Were they challenging just because it took a long time to level? Is that it? Oh, but they also required a full group to do anything.
Sounds like a "time spent = challenge" thread combined with a "group vs solo" rant.
Nothing new to see here.
Have to agree. When people mention MMOs are easy today, the only reasoning they give is time. Which just makes thing tedious, not challenging.
Artificial Intelligence was as terrible as it is now so combat was not more challenging.
How hard combat is has not really changed but the way mobs agro has. In eq 1 trains were a common "problem" and I remember being killed quite a few times running at night, getting lost and getting killed. Now nothing agros you in the open world or you run/mount so fast it makes no difference. There is no danger in the world and that has nothing to do with time. It has to do with difficulty.
Hey but thanks to the new generation of you guys who say everything should be instant we can now buy level 90s in WoW!!!... I would say that sucks for the end game raids that get stuck with those players but the game has been a easy joke for a long time. They should fit right in.
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR Aggressive mob aggro is annoying not hard. There's a difference. That's why its mostly gone.
lol I love it.. Anything that causes you to die in an MMO is annoying. So it was all removed and now you are left with these crap easy games. Raids aren't hard you just get everyone to do the same thing at the right time. If you die it is annoying.
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR Aggressive mob aggro is annoying not hard. There's a difference. That's why its mostly gone.
One could argue you are annoying, but not hard. Why are you still here?
Just kidding of course.
I believe the posted has a valid point. It wasn't just time consuming. It was hard because you had to be careful when traveling. This in turn gave a sense that you were in a real world and had to be wary when venturing out into the unknown or even the known. It was both difficult and immersion. It is easier if you don't have to worry about adds. Then all you have to do is concentrate on the mob in front of you. Since said mob has been made to be easily beaten it's not much challenge. On the flip side getting adds could make things interesting or cause you to lose the fight.
When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
Yet when people meet any kind of difficulty in an mmo they complain that they are too hard.
I've heard people complain that SWTOR and ESO are too hard in some areas. There is a particularly vocal mmorpg forum poster who complains any time they die in any game.
Perhaps because becoming jedi would not be for everyone? And if you saw one you knew they put in alot of work for it? Same with eq1, a game that was as much the ride to the end as the end. Nowadays everyone just want rewards handed to them without doing any real work or research for it. Same in the real world with jobs and wages etc. People today are the insta-gratification type. All want good jobs, no one wants to work for it. Catch 22 and it is ruining mmos aswell as the rest of the world.
The Jedi Holocron grind in SWG was as Easy Mode as it can be. It was just a mindless grind that a monkey could do.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
So many players boast about MMOs being easy - but so few accomplish anything in the games. Show me your Fractal level in GW2, Or your heroic kills in WoW - give us ANY indication you have actually tackled ANY of the hard content in a modern MMO.. I doubt that you have any..
OP is like the guy that talks about how much weight he can bench..but provides zero evidence to back this up.
All successful MMOs backload their difficult content. THis is because they want more then 300k players for their 200million dollar budget. Its just smart business.
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR Aggressive mob aggro is annoying not hard. There's a difference. That's why its mostly gone.
All you had to do to counter that is just be slightly more careful in the future. I've died from mob agro in new games so that is not an old game only issue.
All PvE is programmed to be beaten (I'm sure some of those old spectrum games weren't ). You are never going to be outwitted by A.I at present. So the combat is probably the same as it was, just a variety of different types.
So basically your being rewarded to not make mistakes. Older games were just less forgiving when you made mistakes than todays games.
This is not just an MMO problem, it's all games. Most games you can save your progress whenever. Old games you couldn't save, you had lives.
Remove that restriction and most old games become easier/quicker? to complete.
IMO it has nothing to do with dumbing the content down, as what your actually doing in games of today/past is actually no different within the same genre.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
hahah pretty much. Someone forgot to tell these people games are designed to waste time.. Life is a waste of time really but we do it anyway.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
Because PvE is very primitive thinking. Why drag out something where your not learning anything new when the time is lengthened?
Originally posted by Fenrir767 When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
hahah pretty much. Someone forgot to tell these people games are designed to waste time.. Life is a waste of time really but we do it anyway.
Maybe I'm wrong and people should be rushing around from one task to the next. Maybe that's what it takes to get things done in life and live a healthy life style. I just know that people seem to always complain they don't have any time these days. There is always something that needs to be done. In that case why play games at all? There is no real fun if you have to rush through it in order to fit it in.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
Because PvE is very primitive thinking. Why drag out something where your not learning anything new when the time is lengthened?
It's illogical and seems to be unfun to most.
It is also illogical to play a game at all. You could be spending that time helping someone in need. There are many of them in the world who need help. None the less you are just wasting time rushing through a game you are probably not really enjoying. That is probably why you quit and move quickly on the the next game.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
Once again as response to a post that doesn't even relate to what was said the very last sentence of my post refutes the point of yours.
I have no issue avoiding mobs but when the aggro is overly aggresive that it interferes with how I would like to the game yes it's annoying.
I have no problem interacting with people I do it all the time, if I have to say sit in two waiting 2 hours till a group wants to cross the world for the next 45 minutes to another city because it's too difficult and it can't be done Solo well guess what that's a problem.
Where do I say anything about creativity if we want to stick to the issue that we are discussing on hand finding a creative way to cross an open world to me is not fun it's frustrating and there are better things I can do with my time be it in game in real life.
If you enjoy that kind of content great a lot of people don't and you can either accept it as reality or keep raging against it non stop on these boards like you do.
What do I have to do that can't wait. There are so many things that can be put in here from, to list a few, chores, work, time with friends, running that FP with friends, PvP, Raid Star time. Etc.
It's not the rush to move from one thing to the next all the time it's the ability to have it readily accessible instead of gated behind things that most people do not find fun.
Let's take a look at Vanilla WoW for example that game had the best content gated behind 40 man raid wall, with less than 10% of the game's population playing it well for as many people that joined the game the same amount were not playing it as much or leaving. Enter the new 20 man raid content however it is not as good as the 40 man. Some people enjoy it but you have still gated the best content people are joining but most of the players still can't get to the best content. Enter 5 man Heroics and other ways to get very good gear and boom WoW explodes with players as more people now have access to the content and it's not only the best of the best that can even attempt the 40 man raids.
These types of changes don't happen over night, they happen as devs read the exit surveys, they read forums, and what people say about the game. They try to improve it based on feedback from the community sometimes they go to far but in general the accessibility of the genre has been greatly improved.
People that are advocating for that 1999 style gameplay you were always the minority hate to break it to you but more people installed your favorite games played them and quit them than those that played them and they submitted exit surveys telling people what it would take to get them to play well the first company to truly listen was Blizzard and they created the monster that is WoW.
I don't understand why evolution of MMOs on this board is something that is viewed so negatively has the standard themepark gotten stale that's something that I think everyone on this board, hardcore, casual etc can agree on but instead of asking for progress I see people saying why don't you guys learn to play the way I like to play my games.
IMO the era of 1999 MMORPGs has passed and so will the era of current themeparks but the genre needs new fresh ideas less gated content and freedom for players to play as they wish.
You could have a game with a large open world but the one thing I guarantee is that the minute you put in fast travel to aid people in moving around instead of it taking hours even those that prefer sitting in town waiting for night to fall to sneak around mobs and spend 45 minutes travelling the world will use the convenience most of the time.
Most people enjoy being able to plan their gaming around their real lives, log in for an hour complete a raid progress and get back to whatever they have to take care of.
I hope all of you that want to spend your lives in your virtual world get the game that you want but most people don't want that. What many people here especially those that are fans of themeparks want to see the next generation of MMOs maybe taking a few things from the past but also creating new challenging and fun gameplay rather than slowing us down with any type of gated content.
Perhaps because becoming jedi would not be for everyone? And if you saw one you knew they put in alot of work for it? Same with eq1, a game that was as much the ride to the end as the end. Nowadays everyone just want rewards handed to them without doing any real work or research for it. Same in the real world with jobs and wages etc. People today are the insta-gratification type. All want good jobs, no one wants to work for it. Catch 22 and it is ruining mmos aswell as the rest of the world.
The Jedi Holocron grind in SWG was as Easy Mode as it can be. It was just a mindless grind that a monkey could do.
Yep it was a mindless grind that you had to level a specific combat class to accomplish then once you had your Holocrons then level specific professions it was not hard at all is was just a huge time gate that basically said put in X hours to receive your reward.
The devs changed it because no one like the grind at all. There's a big difference between interesting and challenging content than gated content via a grind, designated down time or forced grouping.
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by StonesDK Originally posted by Kirrik Originally posted by StonesDK Why play a MMO that's going to reward me in three months time, when I can get rewarded in WoW by tomorrow if i start now? Figuratively speaking.
The reward versus the time invested is a tricky one. But the current instant gratification generation is really making all these games shallow. It's both the developers & the players fault. I do believe games should be rewarding and fun but through achieving something and not just logging into the game. Rewarding and fun are subjective of course, but a little challenge does not hurt.
-Kirrik
See it as a slider, where it starts with maximum time investment to get to the carrot. In the opposite end, minimum time investment to get to the carrot.
The more you move the slider towards the minimum time investment, the bigger the mass-appeal and vice versa. The maximum time investment, the more niche it becomes. The downside to this kind of thinking is, the less time people have to invest to get rewarded, the quicker they move on to something new.
Here's a crazy idea: NO CARROT.
We already have plenty of those. Minecraft, EQNext Landmark, MOBAs etc. People play traditional MMORPGS because of advancement, be it story, gear or levels. Take that away then you are stepping over to already existing genres people can play. Be it FPS, hack'n'slash rpgs, mobas, TBS etc. and even those have their own carrots.
I don't think this genre can exist without a reward system
You can have progression and rewards without carrots. UO had very few carrots, and a lot of progression and rewards. Carrots are a shiny promised thing at the end of a stick (grind). If you farm mobs for gold, you aren't necessarily doing it for a specific thing. You're doing it to make gold. Every step of the way is a tangible increase.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
Once again as response to a post that doesn't even relate to what was said the very last sentence of my post refutes the point of yours.
I have no issue avoiding mobs but when the aggro is overly aggresive that it interferes with how I would like to the game yes it's annoying.
I have no problem interacting with people I do it all the time, if I have to say sit in two waiting 2 hours till a group wants to cross the world for the next 45 minutes to another city because it's too difficult and it can't be done Solo well guess what that's a problem.
Where do I say anything about creativity if we want to stick to the issue that we are discussing on hand finding a creative way to cross an open world to me is not fun it's frustrating and there are better things I can do with my time be it in game in real life.
If you enjoy that kind of content great a lot of people don't and you can either accept it as reality or keep raging against it non stop on these boards like you do.
What do I have to do that can't wait. There are so many things that can be put in here from, to list a few, chores, work, time with friends, running that FP with friends, PvP, Raid Star time. Etc.
It's not the rush to move from one thing to the next all the time it's the ability to have it readily accessible instead of gated behind things that most people do not find fun.
Let's take a look at Vanilla WoW for example that game had the best content gated behind 40 man raid wall, with less than 10% of the game's population playing it well for as many people that joined the game the same amount were not playing it as much or leaving. Enter the new 20 man raid content however it is not as good as the 40 man. Some people enjoy it but you have still gated the best content people are joining but most of the players still can't get to the best content. Enter 5 man Heroics and other ways to get very good gear and boom WoW explodes with players as more people now have access to the content and it's not only the best of the best that can even attempt the 40 man raids.
These types of changes don't happen over night, they happen as devs read the exit surveys, they read forums, and what people say about the game. They try to improve it based on feedback from the community sometimes they go to far but in general the accessibility of the genre has been greatly improved.
People that are advocating for that 1999 style gameplay you were always the minority hate to break it to you but more people installed your favorite games played them and quit them than those that played them and they submitted exit surveys telling people what it would take to get them to play well the first company to truly listen was Blizzard and they created the monster that is WoW.
I don't understand why evolution of MMOs on this board is something that is viewed so negatively has the standard themepark gotten stale that's something that I think everyone on this board, hardcore, casual etc can agree on but instead of asking for progress I see people saying why don't you guys learn to play the way I like to play my games.
IMO the era of 1999 MMORPGs has passed and so will the era of current themeparks but the genre needs new fresh ideas less gated content and freedom for players to play as they wish.
You could have a game with a large open world but the one thing I guarantee is that the minute you put in fast travel to aid people in moving around instead of it taking hours even those that prefer sitting in town waiting for night to fall to sneak around mobs and spend 45 minutes travelling the world will use the convenience most of the time.
Most people enjoy being able to plan their gaming around their real lives, log in for an hour complete a raid progress and get back to whatever they have to take care of.
I hope all of you that want to spend your lives in your virtual world get the game that you want but most people don't want that. What many people here especially those that are fans of themeparks want to see the next generation of MMOs maybe taking a few things from the past but also creating new challenging and fun gameplay rather than slowing us down with any type of gated content.
I think you miss the purpose of an RPG, but I am not surprised by this. I also believe your thought of things being wasted time are wrong. The things you call wasted time are actually what keep players playing and build community over time. The last thing you said was that freedom is what should be encouraged. In old MMORPGs you had more freedom than in anything available today. Offering more freedom is like going back to the old model that was already there. Most of the best content you are talking about is actually the most hallow and unimportant part of the game.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
hahah pretty much. Someone forgot to tell these people games are designed to waste time.. Life is a waste of time really but we do it anyway.
Maybe I'm wrong and people should be rushing around from one task to the next. Maybe that's what it takes to get things done in life and live a healthy life style. I just know that people seem to always complain they don't have any time these days. There is always something that needs to be done. In that case why play games at all? There is no real fun if you have to rush through it in order to fit it in.
It's not about rushing through it, it's about being to make it a part of your life without it becoming something that consumes your life.
It's about making sure those players that have 10 hours a week can be part of the community instead of lagging so far behind they will never be a part of the community.
Last thing a lot of us want is to spend 2 hours waiting for a group only to then spend 4+ hours running a dungeon that's an entire day of work or anything else practically for a dungeon run. That doesn't mean the content can't have different ways to be done with various classes allowing you to accomplish the event in different ways and not be challenging. It means getting rid of the 60+ trash mob that your gonna kill mindlessly for a few hours until you get to the hard content.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
Because PvE is very primitive thinking. Why drag out something where your not learning anything new when the time is lengthened?
It's illogical and seems to be unfun to most.
It is also illogical to play a game at all. You could be spending that time helping someone in need. There are many of them in the world who need help. None the less you are just wasting time rushing through a game you are probably not really enjoying. That is probably why you quit and move quickly on the the next game.
The only reason I quit most games is because I'm bored of the mechanics or the community has dwindled and flown to a new game. Also, if I'm not having fun I quit.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 When you have to cross an open world aggressive mob aggro is a pain it's similar to random encounters in a lot of JRPGs they were annoying and a huge time sink this is why a lot of those games have moved away from them.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
hahah pretty much. Someone forgot to tell these people games are designed to waste time.. Life is a waste of time really but we do it anyway.
Maybe I'm wrong and people should be rushing around from one task to the next. Maybe that's what it takes to get things done in life and live a healthy life style. I just know that people seem to always complain they don't have any time these days. There is always something that needs to be done. In that case why play games at all? There is no real fun if you have to rush through it in order to fit it in.
It's not about rushing through it, it's about being to make it a part of your life without it becoming something that consumes your life.
It's about making sure those players that have 10 hours a week can be part of the community instead of lagging so far behind they will never be a part of the community.
Last thing a lot of us want is to spend 2 hours waiting for a group only to then spend 4+ hours running a dungeon that's an entire day of work or anything else practically for a dungeon run. That doesn't mean the content can't have different ways to be done with various classes allowing you to accomplish the event in different ways and not be challenging. It means getting rid of the 60+ trash mob that your gonna kill mindlessly for a few hours until you get to the hard content.
I think what you miss is that by making it more accessible that it becomes a simplified hallow experience with limited interaction. I don't believe you can have everything in life. You can either choose to devote a lot of time to MMOs and have it be a worthwhile experience or you can choose to do things outside of game you deem more important and don't worry about MMOs at all. The way MMOs are right now it just a hallow experience. Otherwise they wouldn't have to go free to play to survive. As I've pointed out to a lot of people there are single player games and coop games that would suit someone with a time frame of 10 hours a week just fine. I guess anything that requires social interaction and living in another world would require a fairly large time investment.
Comments
The reward system may not be the whole reason the genre exists, but it's certainly a fundamental feature going back to RPGs. Back to pen and paper even. Why did you keep running through dungeons? To get more numbers, so that the numbers you had were high enough to get to the next dungeon because the next dungeon's numbers were higher than the numbers you have now. More numbers. That's why we've been playing these games for so long.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I went back through the archives in the General MMORPG forum and found threads like this from 2006.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
How hard combat is has not really changed but the way mobs agro has. In eq 1 trains were a common "problem" and I remember being killed quite a few times running at night, getting lost and getting killed. Now nothing agros you in the open world or you run/mount so fast it makes no difference. There is no danger in the world and that has nothing to do with time. It has to do with difficulty.
Hey but thanks to the new generation of you guys who say everything should be instant we can now buy level 90s in WoW!!!... I would say that sucks for the end game raids that get stuck with those players but the game has been a easy joke for a long time. They should fit right in.
lol I love it.. Anything that causes you to die in an MMO is annoying. So it was all removed and now you are left with these crap easy games. Raids aren't hard you just get everyone to do the same thing at the right time. If you die it is annoying.
One could argue you are annoying, but not hard. Why are you still here?
Just kidding of course.
I believe the posted has a valid point. It wasn't just time consuming. It was hard because you had to be careful when traveling. This in turn gave a sense that you were in a real world and had to be wary when venturing out into the unknown or even the known. It was both difficult and immersion. It is easier if you don't have to worry about adds. Then all you have to do is concentrate on the mob in front of you. Since said mob has been made to be easily beaten it's not much challenge. On the flip side getting adds could make things interesting or cause you to lose the fight.
Difficulty should be something that not everyone or a specific class can accomplish. I would rather have interesting fin challenges than learning to path around mobs and waste time sorry....
Yet when people meet any kind of difficulty in an mmo they complain that they are too hard.
I've heard people complain that SWTOR and ESO are too hard in some areas. There is a particularly vocal mmorpg forum poster who complains any time they die in any game.
The Jedi Holocron grind in SWG was as Easy Mode as it can be. It was just a mindless grind that a monkey could do.
I can't waste time avoiding mobs. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time interacting with people. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time waiting for night to fall. It's an annoying waste of time.
I can't waste time on creativity. It's a game, annoying , and a waste of time.
I can't waste time on anything, but killing easy or hard mobs setup for me to win. It's a thrilling experience.
I guess by most peoples logic on these boards everything in life is a waste of time. Why do you do it in real life? What do you have to do that you can't wait? Why is everything so annoying to you? What is the rush to move from one thing to the next to the next all the time?
So many players boast about MMOs being easy - but so few accomplish anything in the games. Show me your Fractal level in GW2, Or your heroic kills in WoW - give us ANY indication you have actually tackled ANY of the hard content in a modern MMO.. I doubt that you have any..
OP is like the guy that talks about how much weight he can bench..but provides zero evidence to back this up.
All successful MMOs backload their difficult content. THis is because they want more then 300k players for their 200million dollar budget. Its just smart business.
All you had to do to counter that is just be slightly more careful in the future. I've died from mob agro in new games so that is not an old game only issue.
All PvE is programmed to be beaten (I'm sure some of those old spectrum games weren't
). You are never going to be outwitted by A.I at present. So the combat is probably the same as it was, just a variety of different types.
So basically your being rewarded to not make mistakes. Older games were just less forgiving when you made mistakes than todays games.
This is not just an MMO problem, it's all games. Most games you can save your progress whenever. Old games you couldn't save, you had lives.
Remove that restriction and most old games become easier/quicker? to complete.
IMO it has nothing to do with dumbing the content down, as what your actually doing in games of today/past is actually no different within the same genre.
hahah pretty much. Someone forgot to tell these people games are designed to waste time.. Life is a waste of time really but we do it anyway.
Because PvE is very primitive thinking. Why drag out something where your not learning anything new when the time is lengthened?
It's illogical and seems to be unfun to most.
Maybe I'm wrong and people should be rushing around from one task to the next. Maybe that's what it takes to get things done in life and live a healthy life style. I just know that people seem to always complain they don't have any time these days. There is always something that needs to be done. In that case why play games at all? There is no real fun if you have to rush through it in order to fit it in.
It is also illogical to play a game at all. You could be spending that time helping someone in need. There are many of them in the world who need help. None the less you are just wasting time rushing through a game you are probably not really enjoying. That is probably why you quit and move quickly on the the next game.
peoples here talking about MMO not SP games
Once again as response to a post that doesn't even relate to what was said the very last sentence of my post refutes the point of yours.
I have no issue avoiding mobs but when the aggro is overly aggresive that it interferes with how I would like to the game yes it's annoying.
I have no problem interacting with people I do it all the time, if I have to say sit in two waiting 2 hours till a group wants to cross the world for the next 45 minutes to another city because it's too difficult and it can't be done Solo well guess what that's a problem.
Where do I say anything about creativity if we want to stick to the issue that we are discussing on hand finding a creative way to cross an open world to me is not fun it's frustrating and there are better things I can do with my time be it in game in real life.
If you enjoy that kind of content great a lot of people don't and you can either accept it as reality or keep raging against it non stop on these boards like you do.
What do I have to do that can't wait. There are so many things that can be put in here from, to list a few, chores, work, time with friends, running that FP with friends, PvP, Raid Star time. Etc.
It's not the rush to move from one thing to the next all the time it's the ability to have it readily accessible instead of gated behind things that most people do not find fun.
Let's take a look at Vanilla WoW for example that game had the best content gated behind 40 man raid wall, with less than 10% of the game's population playing it well for as many people that joined the game the same amount were not playing it as much or leaving. Enter the new 20 man raid content however it is not as good as the 40 man. Some people enjoy it but you have still gated the best content people are joining but most of the players still can't get to the best content. Enter 5 man Heroics and other ways to get very good gear and boom WoW explodes with players as more people now have access to the content and it's not only the best of the best that can even attempt the 40 man raids.
These types of changes don't happen over night, they happen as devs read the exit surveys, they read forums, and what people say about the game. They try to improve it based on feedback from the community sometimes they go to far but in general the accessibility of the genre has been greatly improved.
People that are advocating for that 1999 style gameplay you were always the minority hate to break it to you but more people installed your favorite games played them and quit them than those that played them and they submitted exit surveys telling people what it would take to get them to play well the first company to truly listen was Blizzard and they created the monster that is WoW.
I don't understand why evolution of MMOs on this board is something that is viewed so negatively has the standard themepark gotten stale that's something that I think everyone on this board, hardcore, casual etc can agree on but instead of asking for progress I see people saying why don't you guys learn to play the way I like to play my games.
IMO the era of 1999 MMORPGs has passed and so will the era of current themeparks but the genre needs new fresh ideas less gated content and freedom for players to play as they wish.
You could have a game with a large open world but the one thing I guarantee is that the minute you put in fast travel to aid people in moving around instead of it taking hours even those that prefer sitting in town waiting for night to fall to sneak around mobs and spend 45 minutes travelling the world will use the convenience most of the time.
Most people enjoy being able to plan their gaming around their real lives, log in for an hour complete a raid progress and get back to whatever they have to take care of.
I hope all of you that want to spend your lives in your virtual world get the game that you want but most people don't want that. What many people here especially those that are fans of themeparks want to see the next generation of MMOs maybe taking a few things from the past but also creating new challenging and fun gameplay rather than slowing us down with any type of gated content.
Yep it was a mindless grind that you had to level a specific combat class to accomplish then once you had your Holocrons then level specific professions it was not hard at all is was just a huge time gate that basically said put in X hours to receive your reward.
The devs changed it because no one like the grind at all. There's a big difference between interesting and challenging content than gated content via a grind, designated down time or forced grouping.
The reward versus the time invested is a tricky one. But the current instant gratification generation is really making all these games shallow. It's both the developers & the players fault. I do believe games should be rewarding and fun but through achieving something and not just logging into the game. Rewarding and fun are subjective of course, but a little challenge does not hurt.
-Kirrik
See it as a slider, where it starts with maximum time investment to get to the carrot. In the opposite end, minimum time investment to get to the carrot.
The more you move the slider towards the minimum time investment, the bigger the mass-appeal and vice versa. The maximum time investment, the more niche it becomes. The downside to this kind of thinking is, the less time people have to invest to get rewarded, the quicker they move on to something new.
Here's a crazy idea: NO CARROT.
We already have plenty of those. Minecraft, EQNext Landmark, MOBAs etc. People play traditional MMORPGS because of advancement, be it story, gear or levels. Take that away then you are stepping over to already existing genres people can play. Be it FPS, hack'n'slash rpgs, mobas, TBS etc. and even those have their own carrots.
I don't think this genre can exist without a reward system
You can have progression and rewards without carrots. UO had very few carrots, and a lot of progression and rewards. Carrots are a shiny promised thing at the end of a stick (grind). If you farm mobs for gold, you aren't necessarily doing it for a specific thing. You're doing it to make gold. Every step of the way is a tangible increase.I think you miss the purpose of an RPG, but I am not surprised by this. I also believe your thought of things being wasted time are wrong. The things you call wasted time are actually what keep players playing and build community over time. The last thing you said was that freedom is what should be encouraged. In old MMORPGs you had more freedom than in anything available today. Offering more freedom is like going back to the old model that was already there. Most of the best content you are talking about is actually the most hallow and unimportant part of the game.
It's not about rushing through it, it's about being to make it a part of your life without it becoming something that consumes your life.
It's about making sure those players that have 10 hours a week can be part of the community instead of lagging so far behind they will never be a part of the community.
Last thing a lot of us want is to spend 2 hours waiting for a group only to then spend 4+ hours running a dungeon that's an entire day of work or anything else practically for a dungeon run. That doesn't mean the content can't have different ways to be done with various classes allowing you to accomplish the event in different ways and not be challenging. It means getting rid of the 60+ trash mob that your gonna kill mindlessly for a few hours until you get to the hard content.
The only reason I quit most games is because I'm bored of the mechanics or the community has dwindled and flown to a new game. Also, if I'm not having fun I quit.
I think what you miss is that by making it more accessible that it becomes a simplified hallow experience with limited interaction. I don't believe you can have everything in life. You can either choose to devote a lot of time to MMOs and have it be a worthwhile experience or you can choose to do things outside of game you deem more important and don't worry about MMOs at all. The way MMOs are right now it just a hallow experience. Otherwise they wouldn't have to go free to play to survive. As I've pointed out to a lot of people there are single player games and coop games that would suit someone with a time frame of 10 hours a week just fine. I guess anything that requires social interaction and living in another world would require a fairly large time investment.